welcome to hardtalk prime minister modi's economic strategy brings with it enormous challenges. for how long can india afford to be so reliant on fossil fuels, especially coal? well, my guest today is india's petroleum minister, welcome to hardtalk.

minister hardeep singh puri, thank you. good to be back. it's great to have you on the show. let me begin by asking you about your boss, prime minister modi's grand ambition to have india become a fully developed nation, as he puts it, by 2047, to mark the centenary of india's modern nationhood. it's a grand ambition. but in all honesty, it's not possible, is it?

and the power of having 1.4 soon to be 1.5 billion. 1.4? yes. is enormous. no question. but economists reckon that to become fully developed, to use i ask you a counter question. point one. i mean, i know of no definition in the multilateral system. i know of countries

being termed least developed countries, and there is a listing of them. developed country to a developing country. than some of the so—called developed countries but i ask you the broad question, because you are a key minister responsible for energy, in your case, petroleum and natural gas in this country. and if india is indeed to continue on this then india's energy needs are going to be enormous. in fact, they are going to dominate global energy markets

not really. your assessment that if you have to become a developed countries, you need a lot of energy. is absolutely correct. availability has been lacking and you have to resource from outside. but our domestic e&p or exploration and production, point one are biofuel blending. as our consumption goes up, our refining goes up. production, which next month will be 20%. so 20% of all the fuel consumed

at the bunk is biofuel, which is all indigenous domestic. you can talk about biofuels, you can talk agency has poured a lot of cold water on. you geopolitically very vulnerable. on the discussion, i think those facts are not correct. we are importing from 39 countries. it's coming down. the availability of oil. nobody is vulnerable to external oil. there's more oil coming

on the international market. is that of the total demand increase in the next two decades, 25% will come from india. than there are takers. but let's just talk about the short term. you made this big bet on taking cheap oilfrom russia of the united states. and you're not against the wishes. i'm sorry. the united states. not at all. what the united states told us and told many others is that they wanted us to buy as much oil from russia as we liked, as long as we bought it at a reasonable price. well, there's new sanctions now. let's just talk about. all right.

before he left office. that is ferrying oil as we speak, including new sanctions on the shadow fleet of tankers from russia to india. some in india are calling this an oil shock for your country. i'm not aware of anyone who has even a nodding acquaintance there have never been sanctions on russian energy per se. japan has been exempt. and today, also europe is buying 2,025% of is buying 20—25% of so what the americans i was i was in i was active, buy it reasonable. there was something

called a price cap. now it's music to my ears. minister. fleet of tankers. no, not at all. let me tell you. let me just tell you. to the wrong argumentation. we do not use fleets. we issue tenders at the point of importation. from russia today. it went up. but even in those last two years, sometimes iraq was selling more.

coming on the global market, mostly from then there is need for that oil. available, availability is not a problem and vulnerability does not arise. it's interesting. of the economist magazine. relationship and president putin. i believe president putin is invited to come to delhi very soon, isn't he? we buy $20 billion of energy from the united states. i'm talking about russia. india has refused to condemn that invasion. hop, step and jump.

you've made the point. no. the price would have gone up to $200 a barrel. and who would have? than you currently have. i'm now into geopolitics. it's interesting. you're a former very senior diplomat in the indian foreign service. is it wise, do you believe, for india to have russia violated ukraine's sovereignty in this invasion, something which india will not say and will not recognise. is it wise for india to have got itself into

my prime minister has had a discussion but you believe european. you believe in international law, don't you? i've written a book on the use of force, and i think western europe is hardly in a position to tell let me tell you, we have condemned the use of violence. my prime minister has been on record from day one to say this is not the time of war.

the g20 presidency under india is the one which went on consensus. and that is the first consensus document, whereas the ga and everything else was done. itjust, it seems to me there's a hypocrisy at work here. i could talk about hypocrisy in india when it comes to talking sovereignty. of kashmir�*s status. and its rights. sovereignty as a concept is something we use consistently. so, condemn, putin's violation of ukrainian. sovereignty, said. we have said on record this is not a time for war.

that's not a condemnation of russia's invasion of ukrainian territory. demand to end the war. on on palestine, etc.. that the prime minister's primary commitment is to ensure a sustainable manner. and we've done very well on all three insofar as russia is concerned. yes, we've had long standing relations with the erstwhile soviet union. we have relations with the russian federation, but we have much stronger relations in many with some of the other countries, including from the united states. on energy, i think it has and today we were encouraged by the americans, by western europeans. i think they're out of the equation. they're no longer part of it.

because you've turned the conversation toward america, donald trump is determined to use tariffs as you can expect tariffs to be imposed on indian exports to the united states, can't you? let me give you a primer on tariffs. what makes me very happy about what president trump is saying. he has called for more energy being made available in the world. if that happens, the global economy picks up. there's more economic activity. you know, interest rates come down, etc. please read carefully

what he is saying about energy. it is an attempt to leverage in tariffs also. high tariffs on us, well, there are two kinds of tariffs. of multilateral trade negotiations. impose tariffs. hang on. with punitive tariffs. on us goods coming into india.

it's not for me, as the energy minister, to speak is designated to exercise that authority. here's another issue you have. how does india square its commitment to massively admittedly, in india's case, long term commitments its paris commitments. from 2014 to today, we've got 20% biofuel blending. the decarbonisation debate is succeeding. reliant on coal, the dirtiest fossil fuel for your power.

coal still generates 75% of india's power, power for electricity only accounts for 17% in our refineries. and they are all moving into green hydrogen. first and another two. so there is a transition taking place which your briefing the energy transition minister, are biofuel planting on an increasing demand. we've got e100 pure ethanol

being sold in 400 outlets. with this grand ambition to become a fully developed at climate analytics, she says india still has a very. , , ,, ,, you are welcome to quote, i don't know who these people are, and certainly they don't figure in my discourse at all. there are a lot of lot of people drawing inspiration from western ngos, from people in the west please look at the biofuels

program and look floated nowhere in the world have you got this. 0n the first day, i had a meeting with the then energy secretary of the united states, she said, the minute we can get to one for one today, the cost of green hydrogen has come down we bring it down to two and a half. fossil fuel is over. this kind of transition doesn't take place through fossilised economy. minister, as far as i can see, this is not a sort of east west, uh, political point scoring. not at all. it should not be. it is really a planetary question. and make your decisions,

you understand that the impacts of climate change. i am trying to tell you i am not only conscious, its paris commitments. you should be as a global change, which won't, etc. please concentrate on those countries where clean cooking fuel is not available. we are supplying to 1.4 billion people. a day to beneficiaries, or 15 a day to non beneficiaries. population, even in advanced countries.

coordinates of a developed economy much before 2047. who's the editor of foreign policy magazine. he says modi's india is substantially to a liberal one. do you? no, i don't. and i think this is a whole lot of, you know what, hogwash. there are as as a fact of the matter is, mr nehru was the first prime minister of india. he was deeply impressed with and schooled he did a greatjob.

gradually, rapidly transforming. mr agarwal is entitled to his views. and mr agarwal is perhaps serving an audience. people use the most the choicest invectives against elected leaders. try and do that in a western democracy. the fourth estate, the press, totally free press. these are hallmarks, minister. this as a free press you know that outside observers like freedom

unquote, partly free. that organisations like human rights watch you know all this. growth plan that modi says he can deliver. does it justify all of that? anybody likes it or not, the world's largest democracy. we had republics operating in india and sixth century bc. and today, what you witness in india is a very robust democracy which is delivering goods and services to its people. to deliver energy, you have to deliver energy at affordable democracy is concerned.

we have no shortage of it. really appreciate it. thank you. hello there. the moment, and with clear skies, it's provided now, we keep those clear skies, and so thursday morning is going to be a chilly start away from the far northwest. a bit more of a breeze here, but low single figures

both the frost and the fog will lift away, and for many, more of a breeze down through the south—east — a few isolated showers, but all in all, a dry settled day for many and temperatures recovering after that frosty start — 7—9 degrees. and we start to see the isobars squeeze together a little. to the far northwest. starting to develop, it will push in some showers off the north sea, impacting perhaps east anglia, south—east england and along the channel coast down towards cornwall.

as we go through friday. in the strength of the wind, so you'll need a couple to stay with us. that's it. take care.

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