a video of him on social media. hello, i'm samantha simmonds. stage last year. and suggesting changes. one of the bill's key safeguards. chaired by a serving or retired judge that would appoint the panel would be led by a lawyer, but could also include other experts, such as a psychiatrist and social worker.

what we've done over the last couple of weeks is hear evidence from lots of different experts, and i was always very clear that i believed there needed the assisted dying process. it doesn't happen in most countries. most countries have two doctors involved in the process and then the process ends there. but i also want that third layer to be really meaningful. appropriate and more robust. a crucial safeguard. it will take a lot of, you know, understanding exactly and i think it's come

at a really unfortunate time, because we don't have a great deal of time. what it means. specifically gave provision for a high courtjudge, is the right thing or not in order_ to improve the bill. this is one of more than 300 changes put forward, their mind when it comes back to the commons lets ta ke lets take you to house of commons where there is a [m1 hearin under wa , through 77

through thef 7 through thefassisted 7 going through the assisted bill, which is aimed at going through the assisted bill, which is i fored at going through the assisted bill, which is i for thet strengthening plans for the case to be signed off by experts, ratherthan judge. is to 77 is to the 77 " ”hilawrchainge. w 7 ”filawrchainge. that w w ”wlachhaane. that is behind the law change. that is what kim leadbeater said, the mp w illipwproposing mp proposing the w mp proposing the bill, replacing % replacing this with a proposing replacing this with a panel of that w lapplications. w w lapplications. itw w 1 applications. it comes oversee applications; it cemes concerns oversee applisatiefls; it cemes concerns over oversee applications; !t comes concerns over the court's oversee applications; !t comes co to rns over the court's oversee applications; !t comes co to hearver the court's oversee applications; !t comes co to hear each |e court's capacity to hear each case. she told individual case. she told the bbc that adding extra expertise individual case. she told the bbc ti improve; extra expertise individual case. she told the bbc ti improve the tra expertise individual case. she told the bbc ti improve the tra e but'tise are who the move, saying criticised the move, saying it is watering down the bill's this committee safeguards. this committee hearing is going some hearing is going through some of those details. if he acknowledges he there is a w between 77 between declining distinction between declining c—cccc cc requesting treatment and reduesting death. tcecatoaeent and re . m n tcecatoaeent and re c assisted death. my honourable

ffiend assisted death. my honourable friend a assisted death. my honourable friend - a _ i i friend makes a valid point. i do have _ friend makes a valid point. i do have concerns about public confidence in the bill, if there _ confidence in the bill, if there isn't that additional confidence in the bill, if there isn't giveniditional confidence in the bill, if there isn't given that >nal confidence in the bill, if there isn't given that this is safeguard, given that this is such— safeguard, given that this is such a — safeguard, given that this is such a consequential decision. —= of course, any advanced be predicated directive would be predicated upon — directive would be predicated upon having those stages first before reducing capacity. i felt — first before reducing capacity. i felt on — first before reducing capacity. i felt on this occasion it that needed that additional tightening, for in tightening, forconfidencein - pm— tightening,cforcconfidence in public to know that this is robust process that has a robust process that has gone through — a robust process that has gone through i i _ a robust process that has gone throu~h. .., a robust process that has gone throu~h. .. ., ~ asl as i say, the mca, as it stands, is a tried and tested a piece of that is by practitioners up and used by practitioners up and down the country. the honourable member for stroud it day in his uses it every day in his practice. i have to say, i =£ — w 7-7 w in? didn't. izwasn't 7 7 ”an; 77 w 7having patients for always having patients for surgery every day. but every time i did say you had time ! aia' car; that. you baa“ there time ! aia' car; seat. gau baa“ there is a

where �* where it if capacite fer'cchcrc “it? if ” ” doing major i'm doing major abdominal surgery, level of capacity surgery, the level of capacity to make a decision on that is ca mate a aeciciafi. on mac lei greater ee fieee e eeeieiefi. efi. eeee ie greater if i am bring much greater than if i am bring a small bump or lump an arm, a small bump or lump on an'arm. example. so a small bump or lump on an'arm, example. so it a small bump or lump on an'arm. example. so it tried and for example. so it is tried and tested by medical practitioners. but is also, practitioners. but it is also, as the member has as the honourablermember has been in caio. been. tected in the " www . it said; been. tested intha'c' " e it has eeie; been. tested inthec'c' " e it has been up the courts. it has been up to the courts. it has been up to the court in this land. it highestcourt in this tana�*. it been tested and found to be has been tested and found to be a good piece of legislation. the risk that we now is §:7=;7.:7: 7 it not 7 7 it not onl7y 7 7 it not onl7y a 7 7 it not onl7y a new 7 con7cept, inl7y a new 7 concept, but a new concept, butan a new 7 con7cept, bu7t an entirely legal concept, but an entirely different for assessing different process for assessing the idea of capacity in this and i say that whilst setting. and i say that whilst there may be good intentions to theremay be'good 4ntentions to this system, that is going to add to the folly only going to add to the folly of and over, get itchy. i of it and over, get itchy. i can see my friend.

the advanced directive is an interesting discussion and i am glad _ interesting discussion and i am glad we — interesting discussion and i am glad we are ready to have it. is glad we are ready to have it. is he — glad we are ready to have it. is he reassured that in clause of the bill, subsection 18 of the bill, subsection four, _ 18 of the bill, subsection four, it _ 18 of the bill, subsection four, it is clear that, tn -:t 7777777777 actually, on the day that _ would - actually, on the day that would be provided to assistance would be provided to assistance would be provided to a a assistance would be provided to a - a doctor— assistance would be provided to a a doctor has to a patient, a doctor—has tocflce capacity to decision to end their own em thew m— thefdecision to end their own again has to check it el a clear, m is a clear, settled and informed to end their own ir'jfo r !!,',l7tcc at, 171”, has“! acct: a nd ha 5 jnformed lalisij iq egd their qgggg -m_ jnjormed wish to end their own and has to check life, and has to check everything again on the actual day, _ everything again on the actual day, including i that would neate the believe that would negate the issue — 7 7 7 7 7 w 7n7 7 7c-ateful to 7 77 77 77 7“ 7 _-atefulto the directive. i am grateful to the honourable _ directive. i am grateful to the honourable member. - directive. i am grateful to the honourable member. she - directive. i am grateful to the i honourable member. she makes directive. i am grateful to the - honourable member. she makes a point. i agree with reasonable point. i agree with her many issues. one of her on. many issues; q“eof cc—r—ec— her on. many issues; onee�* ccc'cccc—cc—cc i have her on many issues; qneef ~~ . ~ ~ i have reservations. this, i have some reservations. for doing so is = -:

what claus; 18.1; says because what clause 18.1; says is that the coordinating doctor must satisfied that time the approved substance being of the approved substance being provided, that has provided, that person has capacity has clear, settled capacity and has clear. settted informed wish to end capacity and has clear, settted informed wish to end their agd informed wish to end their through the wording of life. through the wording of 26.1 of the mental act, that decision can made at an time made atan time and once has been iost. tor ,.,.c,,,,.,°f,..c ,.c,.,.. 777of7tha7t 77of7tha7t7777at77 77of7tha7t7777ata7 enactment of that actata' ~ , , ~ , ~ date. i future dateg't�*nerefore, i think: could be future dateflherefore, i think could be minor tightening there could be minor tightening of the wording, or from overnment, reassurances from government, that may be able to alleviate 7 7point. 7 7 77 7 7 7point. 7i7 77 7 7 7 point. 7i think7 7 7 7point. 7ithink7it 7 7 7 point. 7i think7it is 7 that point. but i think it is an important point to air and raise. i'm going to give way to the honourable member. we are we proceed any further, we are discussing _ we proceed any further, we are discussing capacity— discussing capacity and ability _ discussing capacity and abili . , ., discussing capacity and abili . ., ~ ability. thank. youc—t—tbanlc the c—cc member for ability. thank. yeuc—t—thanlc the c—cc member for aaivin honourable member for giving wax _ honourable member for giving wax i'm — honourable member for giving way. i'm trying to understand what — way. i'm trying to understand what i are _ way. i'm trying to understand

what are communicating. if way. i'm trying to understand what a has 3mmunicating. if way. i'm trying to understand what a has anorexia ating. if way. i'm trying to understand what a has anorexia orig. if strut-eds hae anmvraur ”w” or has diabetes, or has kidney failure, _ diabetes, or has kidney failure, and they then decide that— failure, and they then decide that they have the capacity in that they have the ca cf. ' to that they have the capacity—in - m_ that they have the capacity—in - to the bill that they have the capacity in to the bill as it relation to the bill as it stands _ relation to the bill as it stands to make that decision, stan- -||..- |. -- isinn thenthey stan- - u..- |. -- isinn then they decide because it if capatr them 7 if capatr them to =e- =e_ refuse treatment. and tbquzneet refuse treatment, and they meet criteria, does that mean eccccsay say they can then i say they can then sign - 2 say they can then sign up to ' in determining that it is clear in determining that it is who have a for those who have a progressive illness, disease or 7 condition that cannot medical condition that cannot be reversed by treatment. so i it excludes that think it excludes that category of individual, on my reading of 77 uu,77777c7h§5§es777 77 77 uu,77777c7h§5§es777 if; 77 the bill, who chooses not to with treatment, engage with treatment, that would in circumstances = the progression or preventthe progress'lo_n or: : prevent, the progress'lo_n or: : of preventthe progress'lo_n or: : of their deterioration of their condition. don't see it as an

cenditienc ! den't see it as an fuse... with cenditienc !den't see it as an' :.: . .:: with the scenario you allergist with the scenario you have put somebody who have put forward somebody who could have a long life expectancy. —— an i will give - i am i will give i am with this, on the struggling with this, on the evidence we have heard during witness — evidence we have heard during witness _ it - evidence we have heard during witness it very, clear that if has very clear that if somebody has for example, we had anorexia, for example, we had - mentat— anorexia, for example, we had mental capacity act in this theementat capacity/ac. - the me ntat capacityact—lnth'cs - m- the me ntat capacityact—lnth'cs - the - of this i context, the context of this bill, — context, the context of this bill, it— context, the context of this bill, it has been used and is sufficiently used for people to withdraw 7: = -z 7 lthink it is a_f because [think it is auf. - off eeuieeeeee eefehee essfiéfi 871" fe off somebody's life not = ggpgort machine. it is not the making the decision, it person making the decision, it is i loved _ person making the decision, it is loved one. it is not the is the lovedeonec illenelthe -m— is the lovedeonec it is not the receiving life—saving person receiving life—saving wei; life—support machine. what i'm trying to understand is, according to what — understand is, according to what we _

understand is, according to what we heard this morning, if what we heard this morningrif - _ what we heard this morningrif - m_ what we heard this morning, if have the mental you have the mental capacity, and we — you have the mental capacity, and we are using this app to withdraw— and we are using this app to withdraw treatment itself for a that law then lead condition, that law then lead to a — condition, that law then lead to a diagnosis of terminal it to a diagnosisofctefmtnat - it kill toadiagnosiso .. :' s. -it kill if refuse to take i refuse to take insulin - refuse to take insulin and é refuse to take insulin and i i refuse to take insulin and i was — i refuse to take insulin and i was a — i refuse to take insulin and i was a diabetic, i have the 7777777777777_7 pacity capacity to say, mental capacity to say, - i'm _ mental capacity to say, - i'm not- mental capacity to say, l - i'm not- to mental capacity to say, - - i'm not- to take ii actua ' in i make a ggtlially. i'm notgoing to take i make a decision? tryin - 7 7 777777; - trying to understand - - trying to understand hisl greatest respect to the member, i think she hencdrabte member tthinicsehee _: : conflating two honourable merrrber !thin'ceehe— ::: : conflating two issues. you 7 stop treatment under can stop treatment under the mca and that will lead over a mckand'tha�*t witt tead over a of time, progressively, period of time, progressively, to with conditions. to death, with some conditions. the she gave of being a the example she gave of being a diabetic utttbout — but diabetic without insulin. but that would not a terminal that would’not be a terminat within reference to illness within reference to this of proposed this piece of proposed legislation. the legislation is

clear :-== 7-- :-_ very clear that it is about an inevitable illness, inevitable progressive illness, disease or medical condition inevitable progressive illness, dise cannot nedical condition inevitable progressive illness, dise cannot be iical condition inevitable progressive illness, dise cannot be iical cond by n treatment. stepping away from the house _ treatment. stepping away from the house of — treatment. stepping away from the house of commons - treatment. stepping away from the house of commons and - the house of commonsrand take to spain, to he“? l'tefe eee'e 7? e�*eef'e the �* president ree? l'fefe eee'e te ereef'e the �* president of where the former president of the spanish football federation is being today his t7rial sexual 7 at his trial for sexual assault. he says the kiss he jennc; see if; c: secs jenny hermoso after the gavejenny hermoso after the world cup was world cup victory was consensual. she testified it was not under tainted her of the win. —— under enjoyment of the win. —— under tainted enjoyment. enjoymer are the win. —— under enjoymer are seeing i. —— under enjoymer are seeing a —— under enjoymer are seeing a video ter being played at the moment. just to remind you that the trial has under way for trial has been under way for more than jenni hermoso

more than a week. jenni hermoso is claiming lewis will be and associates pressured alice and associates pressured her to say that the kiss was her to say thatthe kiss was —— luis rubiales. consensual. —— luis rubiales. all deny any wrongdoing. they all deny any wrongdoing. is luis rubiales, the this is luis rubiales, the former president of the spanish football association being cross—examined today at his trial for sexual assault. untranslated

we are waiting for that translation, but is m -la ed of what looks like being playedof what tooks tike after those events that moments after those events that are being into took moments after those events that are be the into took moments after those events that are be the former 1to took moments after those events that are be the former president 7 77foo7t7ball 7 ' the spanish football federation, luis rubiales, for sexual being cross—examined for sexual assault. it dates back to when assadttctt dates back. to he" kissed a on the 7 on the m7outh, hermoso on the mouth. moments spain had 2023 77 2023 cup. 77 that is the case that took place and it caused a huge amount of controversy, you will remember, at the time. the events led to this trial. it remember, at the time. the events a d to this trial. it remember, at the time. the events a lot) this trial. it remember, at the time. the events a lot ofiis trial. it remember, at the time. the events a lot of questions to be caused a lot of questions to be asked about the match —— macho

culture in spain. we are going to go back to the court in madrid and the we are going to go back to the court in inadrid and the we are going to go back to the court in in fact, and the we are going to go back to the court in in fact, we the we are going to go back to the court in in fact, we are the we are going to go back to the court in in fact, we are going events. in fact, we are going back to the house of commons, back to thecttousecoflommons, there is a debate back to thecttousecoflommons, over e is a debate 2; ’f back to thecttousecoflommons, over the a debate 2; ’f back to thecttousecoflommons, over the assisted 2; ’f bill. it is a real possibility, riven bill. it is a real possibility, given what _ bill. it is a real possibility, given what we _ bill. it is a real possibility, given what we are - bill. it is a real possibility, given what we are talking l given what we are talking about. in your experience, when they to make potentially they come to make potentially changing decision making life changing decision making about treatment or whatever, you consider they a you consider they have a diagnosis of clinical diagnosis of depression, what is the currently with situation currently with the mental capacity act when it comes to that? are they able and capable of making those and capable of making those and are any ior esampie. inhere ey’ 7they, offer 7 7 they, offer or they, offer or accuse of certain 7 of certain treatment of the state? because of therdepressed state? i am getting at is,

what i am getting at is, when it comes to clearly when it comes to depression, are a huge depression, there are a huge of scales number of scales and considerations to factor in. in �*opinion, does the mental your opinion, does the mental capacity act facib'tate'thcise’ " ' ' " of capacity act tacib'tate'thcise’ " ' ' " of when it kind of situations when it to depression? kind of situations when it - to depression? comes to depression? we , ~ to the comes to depression? we . ~ to the honourable grateful to the honourable — his intervention. he member for his interventionehe i_ member for his interventienehe i right, this is member for his intervention. he right, this is a huge is right. th'lsci—s a huge c" — — c of is right. th'lse'ls a huge _ of patience when - dealing with these i you're dealing with these complex issues. to arbitrarily say anybody with depression is sa an bod with de-ression is sa an bod with deression is e! say anybody with depression is to an informed unable to make an informed decision— unable to make an informed decision any issue would be decision on any issue woulddae l nonsense. a nonsense. an absolute _ there - a nonsense. an absolute there are those nonsense. there are those individuals who may have depression. i would suspect most — depression. i would suspect most people with a terminal _ would _ most people with a terminal would have some sort diagnosis would have some sort of weather diagnosis of of weather formal diagnosis of depression or reactive disorders because of circumstances that they find themselves in. that doesn't mean — themselves in. that doesn't mean - as _ themselves in. that doesn't mean as of themselves they mean that as of themselves they - unable — mean that as of themselves they - unable to _ mean that as of themselves they unable to make a rational, are unable to make a rational, informed — are unable to make a rational, informed decision. you have to i will give way in a do... i will give way in a moment _ do... i will give way in a moment. have to look at

moment. you have to look at - patient _ moment. you have to look at - patient on _ moment. you have to look at patient on an individual each patient on an individual basis — each patient on an individual basis. this is a tried and tested _ basis. this is a tried and tested piece of legislation basis. this is a tried and test doctors of legislation basis. this is a tried and test doctors of l up ilation basis. this is a tried and test doctors of l up and in basis. this is a tried and test doctors of l up and down country . country every— country every day. there the country every day. there are doctors will be using are doctors that will be using it. this _ are doctors that will be using it this moment. they it at this very moment. they are adept _ it at this very moment. they are adept knowing and are adept at knowing and sensing _ are adept at knowing and sensing they need to escalate that, — sensing they need to escalate that, whether it is ——£ o jnion. or s chiatrist: they have gpjnion. or psychiatrist. ., they have concerns because they have concerns about — because they have concerns about the underlying issues. this— about the underlying issues. this is— about the underlying issues. this is a _ about the underlying issues. this is a robust piece of legislation that we be legislation that we should be using — legislation that we should be using to _ legislation that we should be using to enhance this ustn,-,t,o enhance this - z usiengeto enhance this bill. to put added complexity seeking to put added complexity to it. _ seeking to put added complexity to it, which is only going to us into a c-uamire of put us into a quagmire of uncertainty. will give way. uncertainty. i will give way. perhaps _ uncertainty. i will give way. perhaps you could answer this question very directly. would perhaps you could answer this qu be on very directly. would perhaps you could answer this qu be content directly. would perhaps you could answer this qu be content to ectly. would perhaps you could answer this qu be content to see '. would perhaps you could answer this qu be content to see somebody is depressed, may be who is depressed, may be suicidal, apply suicidal, successfully apply for assisted death? mr; suicidal, successfully apply for assisted friend�* my suicidal, successfully apply

for assisted friend puts it with honourable friend putsitoal'ltil im— honourable friend puts it with usual candour. it's a honourable friend puts it with usue question. it's a honourable friend puts it with usue question and i a honourable friend puts it with usue question and i'll give straight question and i'll give him a — straight question and i'll give him a straight answer. there is e édi depressed i so that he édi depressed and i so that he di�* depressed and somebody e di�* depressed and somebody who was depressed and somebodywbo im— was depressed and somebody who depressed and suicidal. i is depressed and suicidal. i have — is depressed and suicidal. i have no— is depressed and suicidal. i have no personal moral objections to who has terminal illness, who suffers a terminat’ittness. who suffers depression, he from depression, he has capacity, are set out to the mental— capacity, are set out to the mental act, if they mentat capacity act; it they we, wish to mentat capacity act; it they" _ wish to end their ultimately wish to end their life because of a ie!!! are doin diagnosis. if they are doing it because _ diagnosis. if they are doing it because they are as a 77-77 consequence of their depression, that is a different; distinct issue—we - talking differentgdistinct issue. �*w’e talking about individuals i wanted to end who i wanted to end their life because _ who i wanted to end their life because of their terminal diagnosis, not of their because of their terminal diagno: disorder. of their because of their terminal diagno: disorder. i of their because of their terminal diagno: disorder. i will of their because of their terminal diagno: disorder. i will give 1eir mental disorder. i will give way — mental disorder. i will give wa. . , mental disorder. i will give wa , ., , , mental disorder. i will give wa . . , 777777 element to this whole what at the it 7 it says 7 it says one of the doctors

assessments, if underta king'assessments. if have a undertaking'assessments. if have a doubt as to they have a doubt as to capacity, does that offer ceases: 7777t°7777 see. ififi i cc; 187m), cases—c ”"t67n717y7hz7n7ourable reassurances to my honourable in this regard? a friend in this regarded. n' c : : c layer of safeguards in further layer of safeguards in area. �* ., ., this area. i'm grateful to the honourable _ this area. i'm grateful to the honourable member - this area. i'm grateful to the honourable member for - this area. i'm grateful to the honourable member for his l “enamels-l: member fertile """*"'*"’* that “enamels-l: satemberfer'hie """*"'*"’* that is one of intervention. that is one of the — intervention. that is one of the additional that the additions! safeguardethat m: :: a...” :: within this the additionat safeguardethat m: :: a...” :: within this bill. is within this bill. when you to is within this bill. when you - to similar- is within this bill. when you to similar pieces of compare tosimitarpteces—of’ _ across the - compare tosimilarrpieces of across the world, legislation across the world, this has— legislation across the world, this has more in—built safeguards in it than any other i safeguards in it than any other i can— safeguards in it than any other i can think— safeguards in it than any other i can think of. and sol safeguards in it than any other i can think of. and so i think he makes _ i can think of. and so i think he makes a valid point. there = -= that option i that option available, - i that option available, of i is that option available, of course, _ is that option available, of course, where do have = -e: concerns about somebody's mental _ concerns about somebody's mental state and you can mentatetateiandeeoean _ escalate it and effectively escalate it and - further _ effectively escalate it and further specialist seek further specialist opinion. i will make way, opinion. i will make some way, ifi made. — opinion. i will make some way, if made, because i thinkl if i made, because i think i have — if i made, because i think i have been indulging the —§e e -§e 777— 77 7 7 7-em7777f 77 7 e -e_- patients for far too long. i am cautious— patients for far too long. i am cautious against introducing 7 = _—7

new test. i have 7 - new test. i have set i this new test. i have set the reasons— this new test. i have set the reasons out, i not have reasons out, i may not have persuaded everyone, but i set reasons out. i 7 reasons out. i think reasons out. i think we 7 reasons out. i think we risk my reasons out. i think we risk making — my reasons out. i think we risk making it — my reasons out. i think we risk making it an overcomplicated system _ making it an overcomplicated system. we move away from what is a mechanism the mental through the mental capacity act~ — through the mental capacity act~ we _ through the mental capacity act. we enter into tiger country— act. we enter into tiger country of untried and untested systems. — country of untried and untested systems, which the courts have not considered, which will _ lead _ not considered, which will _ lead to - not considered, which will lead to challenge. not considered, which will is lead to challenge. not considered, which will is lead t( to allenge. not considered, which will is lead t( to do ange. not considered, which will is lead t( to do so, i. there is no need to do so, there _ there is no need to do so, there is— there is no need to do so, there is no— there is no need to do so, there is no need do so have := z:— mechanisms that areatl: e... cc c 7 cc... i mechanisms that areatl: cccc cc cc c cccccc i think that ambiguity and potential