but there's no seat at the table for president zelensky. we just wejust landed, our upside—down on arrival at toronto airport. all they said and everything just kind of sideways, and lastthing 7 lastthingi 7 last thing i there was = -= ' ninthe 535k 7 77 ' ninthe 535k i 77 ' ninthe 535k i a; kind in the blink and i am upside down but still strapped 17231177 me 71, rsfifi, into all they said and everything kind of went sideways. trying to look tough on crime for overcrowding in prisons. i'm nicky schiller, welcome to the programme. direct face—to—face talks

for the first time since russia the talks are taking place in saudia arabia. has not been invited. where america's top diplomat, secretary of state marco rubio, is leading the high—level delegation from the us. the meeting is taking place less than a week if the russians are serious about peace talks. minister, sergei lavrov. you can see him there. relations." he asked of the secretary of marco rubio, secretary of state marco rubio, including is the us sideline in ukraine and what including is the us sideline in ukr be e and what * ’ " " including is the us sideline in

ukr be asked rhat f ’ " " including is the us sideline in ukr be asked ofit f ’ " " including is the us sideline in ukr be asked of russia, ’ " " including is the us sideline in ukr be asked of russia, but " " will be asked of russia, but there was no response from,” ,, w” w. 7 ,, rubio. going there was as respanse tram,” ,, a," as. , ,, rubio. going into room, tom outlines the room, tom outlines more about of the talks about the shape of the talks will take. step towards seeing whether russia is, to end the war. i have to say that the messaging coming from the russians, foreign minister sergei lavrov and his delegation as they landed here in riyadh last night, was very different. the us and russia. president trump's 90—minute phone call

we are seeing european countries scrambling to try when we heard the americans call for concessions it is being watched by all the players, but crucially president zelensky saying that he didn't know about these

tom bateman in let's speak to our russia editor steve rosenberg, i your assessment on how you think this i your assessment on how is. ou think this meeting is. e as; been meeting is. 22w - been lookinfifi meeting is. 22w - been lookingatgf meeting is_ 2:32:12: gram-£3“; - been looking at images i've been looking at the images coming of riyadh from this of at the two �* russian sitting senigrfiussianpffic’ral sitting american z= the geopolitical effieiele; the eeeeel'fieel 7” ”w" 7 7” of effieiele; the eefiefil'fitel '” "w" 7 7” of that effieiete; the sefiefil'fitel 7” "ww 7 "7 of that will effieiete; the seeeehhkel 7” "ww 7 "7 of that will be very indeed w " t'ridelel} ’ w n fifidelel’rthj when j twhen you that russians when you consider that three ago when russia full—scale launched its full—scale invasion of ukraine the biden administration took a very éggjiigiggratieateek a very to different approach to russia, it was determined to punish and it was determined ta punish. and determined not isolate russia, determined not to russia for invading a to reward russia for invading a nation country. fast to reward russia for invading a to 1ation country. fast to reward russia for invading a to today country. fast to reward russia for invading a to today and 1try. fast to reward russia for invading a to today and you fast to reward russia for invading a to today and you have 77 7 7 77 7ta7lk7s,7th7e777 77 7 77 7 7 77 7ta7lk7s,7th7e7f7ir7st77 7

us russian talks, the first high—level talks high—level in—person talks between the two countries since between the tweegdntrieseince i between the twecgdntries'eince i think. between the twecbbntries'since i think. isolation? betweenthetwe'cgbntries'eince ithink. isolation? what 2021, ithink. isolation? what isolation? i think the russians be putting aside will be pleased. putting aside what they may or may not agree on at talks, the fact on at these talks, the fact the happening will be talks are happening will be welcomed, and is welcomed welcomed, and is being welcomed by russia and even as by russia and presented even as a diplomatic picture already. how realistically does moscow think this process can come to 73551777 7 77 7 77 77 7 3417 $§d7w7i£177 7 7 7dééi7 $§d7w7h7§t7§ré7 7 7 7dééf$§d7w7fiél7§ré7tiiéi7r77 7 7deal7ar7i7d77w77h7at77ar7e77th7e7i77r7red7777 likely to be? ”e is likely to be?” no sign of offering have shown no sign of offering any concessions. you ask any concessions. when you ask russian officials what it any concessions. when you ask russian officials on t it any concessions. when you ask russian officials on ending russia's position on ending the the military russia's position on ending the the as military to ti—fi call it, the russians refer you back to so—called peace back to the so—called peace proposal presented by vladimir ofjune last year which putin ofjune last year which actually read more like an

putin ofjune last year which actually re to more like an putin ofjune last year which actually re to ukraine. an putin ofjune last year which actually re to ukraine. that ultimatum to ukraine. that would involve russia keeping all the territory it has all the territory ithes seized �* plus more all the territory ithas seized �* plus more territory in so far plus more territory in regions it has partially the regions it has partially seized, that are still , , by ukraine. it would controlled by ukraine. it would involve being involve western sanctions being scrapped, it would involve no nato for ukraine and involve cry being recognised as russian. —— it would crimea would involve crimea being recognised as russian. i think moscow pretty confident it get. e eeeee— ee ee ee " get as stee— eeee eeee e get a deal to end the russia's terms. r7ussia's terms. that on russia's terms. that confidence has been fuelled partially by the on ipartiatly by the situation on battlefield in foartiatly by the situation on battlefield in eastern the battlefield in easterne' ee eeee'e , where russia the battlefield in easternee eee e eeeee e where russia been ukraine where russia has been making gains and seizing territory but also by territory but also partially by the comments the russians have been hearing from the us in recent days, administration in recent days, president donald trump, administration in recent days, pres ofint donald trump, administration in recent days, pres of state, ald trump, administration in recent days, pres of state, the trump, eeeretare ef gate the eeeeeeeee

seseta�*r ef state the ,, ' e of the seseta�*r ef state the e ' e of the kind comments that music to of comments that are music to moscow's years, it is moscow's years, like it is unrealistic to think that unrealistic to think, that willjoin it is ukraine willjoin nato, it is to think ukraine unrealistic te think. deraine go the unrealistic te thin'c u'craine go the pre—2014 will go back to the pre—2014 ukrainian border. comments ruling a seat for europe at ruling out a seat for europe at a peace and then a future peace talks. and then there was that extraordinary speech by vice presidentjd vance the munich security vance at the munich security conference a few days ago voicedstinging 77 voiced stinging cr7itici7s7m voiced stinging criticism of par? e ee eee ee ee 77 77part7of7 7 7 part7of europe7 7 77 77part7of7equpe7a7nd7777 7 russia part of europe and european leaders, and that raised fears in europe of a 7 raised fears in europe of a . the transatlantic rupture in the transatlantic relationship. all of that taken together think explains together i think explains why russia confident not only russia is confident not only it will get a deal on its that it will get a deal eneits eeeeeeeeeeeeeee to that it will geta dealeneitse e ee eeeeeee ee to end the that it will geta dealeneitse e e e e ee e ee e e e to end the war in ukraine also allow russia to but will also allow russia to force through what it wants, a

chan-e ehange in the long—tern! change in the ee e e e ee order. long-term change in the e eeeeee e order. ,, �* international order. steve, i'm really interested _ international order. steve, i'm really interested l how - really interested in how particularly meeting today particularly this meeting today is being portrayed in the russian media its russian media and its edge cutting through with russian public? it is certainle e civen extensive russian public? it is carted; - given extensive coverage th7e 77 media, 77 th7e 77 media, i 77 th7e 77 media, i was 77 in the russian media, i was looking in the russian newspapers morning. we newspapersthis morning. �*a’e was newspa perse this morning. �*a’e was headline -e the russian government paper in the russian government paper today, another paper noted this the first high—level was the first high—level us russian since 2021. russian discussionsince 2021. was on the street speaking to i was on the street speaking to russians a couple of days ago i was on the street speaking to rus manyi couple of days ago i was on the street speaking to rus many people of days ago i was on the street speaking to rus many people said ays ago i was on the street speaking to rus many people said to; ago i was on the street speaking to rus many people said to me o i was on the street speaking to rus many people said to me they and many people said to me they hoped donald trump would make a heeee qeheierthe'he iiiee�*ete�* meee e in heeeei peheierthe'he “eee“? meee e in terms an end to this accelerating an end to this interestingly conflict. interestingly everyone you speak to the everyone you speak to on the because it's a streets because it's a war. this is referred to

0fficially this is referred to as a special military still. three years operation. still; three fireaereeeeee e ee eeee by operation. still; three years e ee ee e e ee eeee e by the operation. still. three years e ee ee e e ee eeee e by the russian and ,_bygthe russian but speaking to authorities, but speaking to ordinary russians, everyone ordinary russians. everyone it war because they can calls it a war because they can see the pictures of tanks and artillery on the television. is a fatigue here with there is a fatigue here with what is happening. even if you are not directly involved and if don't even if you don't have husbands, sons, who husbands, sons, brothers who have been fighting in ukraine, i think there is a general fatigue with the last three that this war en7d7 end soon. ,, , in moscow, 77 intmoscow, thank you very live in moscow, thank you very much. 0ur tom much. 0ur correspondent tom was the in bateman was in the room in saudi arabia for those talks, describe what mood was like saudi arabia for those talks, descrii were it mood was like saudi arabia for those talks, descrii were in mood was like saudi arabia for those talks, descrii were in the hood was like saudi arabia for those talks, descrii were in the room was like tino delegations? two delegations? i was one the two delegations? i was one of a - number— the two delegations? i was one of a - number of— of a small number of in the travelling journalists in the travelling us press alongside ”15316535;55a:

russian travelling principle come with foreign minister who come with foreign minister sergei lavrov. we were allowed into room for a or into the room for a minute or so before the meeting got under way, we were basically bundled way, weewereebaseically bundled that room, allowed to film into that room, allowed to film and record sound for a short into that room, allowed to film and rec and ;ound for a short into that room, allowed to film and rec and we id for a short into that room, allowed to film and rec and we saw ra short into that room, allowed to film and rec and we saw that hort minute and we saw that extraordinary scene with the us secretary of state marco rubio and steve envoy to the region, ron's envoy to the region, mike waltz, security waltz, the national security and sitting opposite adviser, and sitting opposite and adviser, and sittingopposite and flags base with russian and us flags base behind and on the table behind them and on the table the russian foreign the russian delegation, foreign minister sergei lavrov and —e of kgy aides one of the key aides to vladimir in 1.5 metres across the from :_ from the us 7from the us delegation. i table from the us delegation. i asked mr rubio i was in room concessions were the room what concessions were being asked of and also being asked of russia and also were they sidelining the ukrainians, he didn't

we expect the meetin- that. we expect the meeting might last for several best7 72777 the7 here7 you77 eee e e eee 77 onsets. 77 7 77 7 77 7y§7u i173}; to. heating, 7 77 7 77 7y§7u i173}; is. heafi7n7g7, we 7 as you have been hearing, we have heard from the russians that this or are at that they see this or are at framing this as the 7 7 of normalised7relations united states. the with united states. the americans are to play americans are trying to play expectations that this is down expectations that this is any formal start to negotiations. i think a more realistic outcome will their realistic outcome will be their attempts to try to secure and fix a date a potentially fiu a date foreae e e e e eee e trump potentially fiu a date foreae e e e e eee e putin. trump potentially fie a date fora eee eee ee eeeee e putin. ., ., ., m and putin. you are travelling with the us _ and putin. you are travelling with the us delegation, - and putin. you are travelling with the us delegation, do l and putin. you are travelling l with the us delegation, do we a timeframe on when 753355777 77 might happen? we don't. it is hard to - because - might happen? we don't. it is hard to - because i - might happen? we don't. it is hard to - because i think. of the thin-s us officials one of the things us officials saying about is they are saying about this is they are saying about this is they are scoping out the in

are scoping out the russians in their say they see their view, they say they see this as a first to see if russian delegation 7 the russian delegation are wanting to serious about wanting to go ahead peace talks. know ahead with peace talks. we know that president has said ahead with peace talks. we know thi wants dent has said ahead with peace talks. we know thi wants to... has said ahead with peace talks. we know thi wants to... he has said ahead with peace talks. we know thi wants to... he expects ;aid ahead with peace talks. we know thi wants to... he expects toi d a summit with mr putin. have a summit with mr putin, but is the details it out but it is the details it out here will give us a bit here that will give us a bit more onjust how more clarity on just how that might be. i think more clarity on just how to that might be. i think more clarity on just how to the hat might be. i think more clarity on just how to the wider ght be. i think more clarity on just how to the wider issue a. i think framing 7 framing of 7 different framing of these discussions by the two sides, discussions by thetwo sides. �* is trying to do is what moscow’rs trying to do is that this is end all 7 77 be7g7i7n7ning7 7 7 77 7 77 be7g7i7n7ning7 of 7 77 7 77 beginning of the of the beginning of the end of moscow's isolation, which of “eeeeee eeiatm�* ehsh ee ee eee was “eeeeee eeiatm�* ehsh ee ee e was by “eeeeee eeiatm�* ehsh ee ee eee seen is by efe=hlflgtfm ' “eeeeee eeiatm�* ehsh ee ee eee seen is west dashingten'. ' “eeeeee eeiatm�* ehsh ee ee eee seen is west slapped en. ' has seen the west slapped sanctions for three years on russia after its full—scale of ukraine. invasion of ukraine. certainly the americans will be trying to pull away from that narrative pull away from that narratiye eeee eeee eeeeeeeeee this pull away from that narratiyeee e ee e ee e e ee this and i think is

after this and i think it is pretty clear they will start to get some messaging after this meeting itself, but remember meetingitself. butremember all of this has sent waves that all of this has sent waves of through mm heidi! [mill- europe's right to kyiv, the ukrainians have been left out this, were not they of thiefwerenot invited. they very worried about that are very worried about that eeeeee eee eeeeeeee ee are very worried about that ee e e e eee �* the europeans are very worried about that ee e e e eee �* acting europeans are very worried about that ee e e e eee �*acting to europeans are very worried about that ee e e e eee �*acting to shore europeans are very worried about that ee e e e eee �*acting to shore their )eans now acting to shore their security because collective security because they are worried the they are worried about the to which the us will 77 there for them, they remain there for them, they look at of the look at pictures of the us holding talks directly holding these talks directly now the russians and that sending concern through is sending concern through thank ou for riyadh, thank you forjoining us and we will let you back to those talks that are going on between russia and the us. on betweencrussia and the us. this �*with let's discuss this further with an international peace negotiator the geneva negotiator at the geneva centre for security policy. thank you 77jo|n7i7ng joining us on 7 77 joi7n7i7n7g7us7on7l737bc 7 77 joininglséhpsc news. forjoining us on bbc news. what do you think the

what do you thinis the e e ee e ee strategy is the americans' strategy is at the talks today? l americans' strategy is at the talks today?— is terribly worrying strategy ieterr'rbly worrying they are trying to see because theyearee trying to see �*they because theyearee trying to see �* they can end because theyearee trying to see �*they can end the war how they can end the war quickly, so i think what us president donald trump is motivated by is his the war, and the i] to end the war, and the worry i have with the strategy has a short—te7r7m goal reeutit hee e eheetefet'heeetw 7777 t7 77 than a feeu’e�* hee e ehfiff:*etm7§7fie177 "77 h 7’ than a long—term feeu’e�* hee e ehfiffzet'h7e7fie1w "77 h 7’ than a long—term goal of rather than a long—term gaal, of �*to rather than a long—term gaal, of �* to ensure rather than a long—term gaal of �* to ensure stability rather than a long—term gaal of �*to ensure stability not how to ensure stability not in the region, not to i see 7—77,” mentien ! q’qhe aee'anyrr w , ~ to try address the strategy to try to address the that had started issue that russia had started this war, this unprovoked war, had occupied territory the practices of have been horrendous soldiers have been horrendous in of violation ire tsrrrzzf: ef eielatieh ef humanitarian ire terree ef eieletiee ef humanitarian and international humanitarian and human rights law. so where you heman rights lawz—ee e'here �*r’ee�* strategy heman rights lauri—ese e'here yee strategy that has to do

have a strategy that has to do with time rather than essence substance and where it a human element, the lacks a human element, the humanity of it is missing, the -* of democratic countries values of democratic countries are and you have érssmjssing and you have versus and autocracy versus democracy and i wonder whether the us stance. to answer your question simply, thestrategyi '..~ ..~ than essence. and how does president europe and how does president zelensky m excellent an excellent questicxn. zelensky is president zelensky is meeting” ,. ”w e ,. e w, erdogan of president zelensky is meeting” e eee e e e e. erdogan of turkey president erdogan of turkey today and he tackled it by ensuring he speaks to us many leaders???” ' leaders in leadersinthe” ' 7 leaders in the region: 7 powerful leaders in the region in the world, because he as many needs as many countries initially his bilaterally initially on his first and foremost he side,,first and foremost he try to strike bilateral will try to strike bilateral defence deals, and because he is running security, because he is running against the is

against time, the essence is tight the us is running tight because the us is running to try to conclude a which tight because the us is running to t not conclude a which tight because the us is running to t not cc fair de a which tight because the us is running to t not cc fair and which tight because the us is running to t not cc fair and will which tight because the us is running to t not cc fair and will not|ich will not be fair and will not secure the borders in the long run, is for sure. lunkthat is for sure. you gurikthat is for sure. you rush lunkthat is for sure. you rush this. this has to cannot rush this. this has to be a very, very complex negotiation, it is clear president would like to president putin would like to invade not ukraine but go ? 77 _: *?f* j hggghg. and it is a call for to unite with europe to unite and speak with one voice. every european elite europe to unite and speak with one coming every european elite europe to unite and speak with one coming up ry european elite europe to unite and speak with one coming up with ropean elite europe to unite and speak with one coming up with a pean elite europe to unite and speak with one coming up with a differente eeeeeqe'ieidee dig with-e different- the eeeeeqe'ieidee dig with'e'diffeiente the more divisions are in europe, more there are in europe, the more that place had to putin's for ., ., ., ~ that place had to putin's for “oinin ., ., ., . ., ., ~ that place had to putin's for “oininu us ., ., . ., ., ~ that place had to putin's for'oinin: us on ., ~ that place had to putin's - forjoining us on bbc that place had to putin's forjoining us on bbc news. yoy focioining us on bbc news. appreciate your we a live page the have a live page with the latest on between the latest on the talks between the us and russian officials taking in saudi arabia. tom place in saudi arabia. tom who we from, bateman, who we heard from, it's posting about live a ny data ils 77 with any details that he gets, you will find that on the bbc

website' ' website 7 app. ”7 news website and app. around the world and across the uk, you are with bbc news.

ari those ie world and across the ari those talks rld and across the ari those talks take id across the ari those talks take place >ss the ari those talks take place in. the e: i: between and saudi arabia between russia and the president has the us, president zelensky has said he believes the trump is after a quick with the russians, m win with the russians, but said did not regard it as a ceasefire any simple ceasefire as any victory. european leaders met paris monday to paris mond about to paris mond about the to decision trump administration's decision to initiate the talks te initiete ehe telee eitheet ' �* involvement. te initiete ehe telee eitheet ' �*involvement. sir te initiete the telee eitheet ' �*involvement. sir keir their involvement. sir keir starmer has said he is ready to send uk if is any lets talk more this with our ab“) thiee'ieh ee' 7 , w in james correspondents in kyiv, james andrew harding in and 7 and hannah 7 and hannah miller 77 and hannah millerat 7 james, how are westminster. james, how are these going down in these talks going down in

ukraine?— these talks going down in ukraine? . . , , ukraine? there are criticisms in these parts _ ukraine? there are criticisms in these parts of _ in these parts of europe... over europe are not being able over europe atenotlaeing able step up over europe atenotbeing able step up where america to step up where america has challenged it. people really feel that they have been afraid russia to this point, which of russia to this point, which why it is playing catch—up. 22:2 for president 77 he as for president zelensky, he has america is trying has described america is trying to please the in to please the kremlin, in 7 to please the kremlin, in , to get a quick peace bis as donald trump has said deal, as donathrumphas said has deal, as donatd't'rdr'np'hae said has wanted deal, as donatd't'rdr'np'has said has wanted for some time he has wanted for sometime i think the here is win would be for what that win would be for washington, that z -= ' lgoklike,” ’ ”a? w léoklikeww w wathhe w w closed doors closed doors in moment behind closed doors in have decisions waish will petehtiell'g ehepe future of and american the eee—e *�* eee—eihe, eee ,,, ~ ~ , , ~ , american assurances despite american assurances that ukraine will be eeeeeeey key outcome seems be a summit between subsequent summit between donald trump and vladimir eeneld trdnnp and ledinnir .ee......e..,.e,.e........e so eeneld trennp end ledinnir' ' ' " ” so why

eeneld trennp end ledinnir' ' ' ”' '" " ” so why president petin. sb whyjbst presidente e e eee. ee ee e factor into and zelensky factor into this and what he be into? zelensky factor into this and wh�* have he be into? zelensky factor into this and wh�* have he russia's into? we have heard russia's maximalist going into maximalist demands going into this meeting, what will marco