this is a bbc news who have the headlines for you at the top of for you at the top of headlines for you at the top of the album "gibflrh'whfch’ ” 7 w " "gibflrh'whfch’i! ’ w " wgibflawthiél w w album whiwch is a straight a straight the album which is a straight after programme. —— the the album which is a straight after this programme. after this programme. —— at the top the hi, i'm ros atkins. hi, i'm ros atkins. this week on the media show, we'll look at how diplomacy plays out in the media with the help of a former nato spokesperson and nato spokesperson and a defence journalist. we've also been catching a defence journalist. up with david remnick, editor of the new yorker, which is celebrating its 100th anniversary. that's coming up on the media show. recently, we've seen the us—russia talks in saudi arabia, an emergency european summit in paris, the munich security summit, and the military alliance nato all of this is focused all of this is focused on the war in ukraine, on the war in ukraine, and the different parties have been communicating in different ways, including via the media. ways, including via the media. to understand this, i've been speaking with three guests —

david remnick, editor of the new yorker magazine, and 2023, and larisa brown, who's defence editor at the times. yeah, they've been pretty crazy days over the last few weeks. and, you know, normally i'll wake up and i'll message everybody that i can think of that might have something to say, whether that's, you know, a diplomat or a military chief or some officials in the government, and try to sort of get a sense of what people are thinking that morning. and normally, in these times, it's after donald trump has said something quite outrageous the night before, and everyone's just trying to still work out exactly what he means and what the repercussions are. some people will message me and say, they might be like, a government...

wants to maintain that relationship with trump. you know, the uk might be

slapped with tariffs. whereas some of the europeans have been a bit more vocal, a bit more critical about some of the us policies. and so the sources that i'm and so the sources that i'm speaking to, you know, will be happy to say something speaking to, you know, about, you know, their genuine belief about us policies, off the record as a source. but they're not willing but they're not willing to go on the record to go on the record because of the potential, you know, repercussions of doing so. of doing so. larisa, stay with us. larisa, stay with us. let's bring in 0ana lungescu, let's bring in 0ana lungescu, former spokesperson for nato. former spokesperson for nato. 0ana, in your previousjob, 0ana, in your previousjob, if a meeting of this we declassified, together if a meeting of this type of consequence were approaching, or a week of this type of consequence of this type of consequence were approaching, how would you go about were approaching, how preparing for it? preparations would be done well in advance. but of course, we've also had, but of course, we've also had, especially in the last few especially in the last few years, periods when we had to move very fast. and of course, the 24th and of course, the 24th of february, 2022, the start of february, 2022, the start of russia's full—fledged of russia's full—fledged invasion of ukraine, invasion of ukraine, was such a day. it was a shock, but it was not it was a shock, but it was not a surprise because we had a surprise because we had actually been monitoring the deployments, the military deployments of the russian deployments of the russian forces on the border with forces on the border with ukraine. ukraine. and we, in fact, used our and we, in fact, used our communications to call out

so for the first time ever, communications to call out

especially for nato. you know, nato is not a think tank or a discussion club. you going to do, nato?" the decision to activate nato's defence plans from the baltic to the black sea.

messaging strategy. so how much effort goes in to try and line those up, or is thatjust impossible? it sort of backfired, not least because we were at the munich security conference and we were getting a lot messages about who was in and who was out of the meeting, and how could they get in on the meeting if they were out. which also means that the media was focusing on who wasn't so there is, uh... in these cases, these things can backfire. sometimes it's not possible, but you can see it also

from the images, the visuals. and visuals are quite important, as we know. and it's... they're not just about logistics. they do send political signals. sir keir starmer, around the table at the elysee palace, they all look a bit awkward. some of them look quite stern, serious. others are hiding behind the others. so that does not convey a sense of unity. so it's always difficult to take pictures of people, you know, perfect pictures of people around a round table. into the logistics, the media operations of this meeting,

but, larisa, there will also be calculations about which journalists are given what access at these summits. how does that work? to report from within a summit or a meeting, such as the one with the europeans? you know, if you take the munich security conference, were taking place. to the sort of, you know, the hotel. ..this whole different building block about ten minutes away. you had to be escorted,

which was quite unusual, um... but, you know, in terms of big press conferences, but the sort of key question for us is, who is going to be going to be leading the press conference? actually get a question. the ones that get it. and often this is worked out before the conference actually takes place. chosen at random. they often know in advance who they're going to pick. and i was... expect a certain question from a certain journalist and, 0ana, you'll have been in situations where you're the one deciding.

but we always got a lot of pushback, especially from the delegations of those countries, because of course, media come as travelling press, say, with president erdogan and so we would have some tough negotiations. as spokesperson in 2010 at lisbon, one of my toughest

because the russians were pushing for them to come out first. they want to have the advantage of the first mover. the russians were doing that, or trying to do that at the summit in lisbon. would they try and do that more broadly, wherever perspective on whatever�*s happening out first? absolutely. and you can see that in every meeting at all levels. in distributing those images so that even western news agencies were using the russian pool images.

because, of course, what is at stake for them sitting at the same table, the big world powers carving especially stung by president obama saying, in 2014, that russia wasjust a regional power, so ever since, and a lot of what we're hearing now is how countries or individual leaders are trying to shape the world's perspective of this equation too, but i'm imagining, 0ana, sometimes, whether you're nato or an individual country, consumption, it's aimed at one particular leader, yeah, you're absolutely right.

injanuary 2019, when i went with the secretary general house. like everybody else, that president trump watches fox. and you can see that in the current administration, or fox commentators. that was a very serious discussion. and the message that we had was that president trump had he was actually right that nato allies were not

allies were spending more than ever and were more united than ever. so, he'd seen it. that message was delivered. listening to you both is david remnick, editor we're going to talk to you at length in a minute about your magazine but the new yorker, of course, when the briefing is going on around fast—moving stories such as the one that we're seeing this week, do they pay the new yorker attention? of what's happening?

i think they do sometimes, but obviously, they're - correspondent from the times, and a seasoned and wise - diplomat from nato talking very calmly and rationally _ about these issues, - when in fact what hangs above this conversation, - and i think both would agree, is a deeply chaotic president of the united states. - "zelensky better move fast or he's not "going to- "i love ukraine, but zelensky

has done a terrible job. - unnecessarily died." than journalist, i think. and what's going on here is you have a president . in the united states, i elected by the people, who is notjust moving - the overton window about our and russia, but shattering it and burning it to the - this is, i mean, the issues about who's led into press| conferences and so on are, i think larisa would agree, | are not unimportant, but the uber subjectl policy, morality on its head. and that leads me to a question i was minded to ask you as i was coming into the studio, which is, when weeks of this consequence

happen and we are still feeling and pass it on, but what is the language we use to describe because in the moment, it can be hard to assess. we're counselled time and again, and we tell ourselves time and again, because we're trying - this is the second term, - how to cover donald trump. overreact to that. on the other hand, it affects policy, it affects history. - so when donald trump goes in front of the world and notj improvises, but rather has i written down and announces riviera in gaza, and speaks of a term, of an issue -

that is so historically- troubled and blood—soaked this makes it very, very difficult for all of us, i whether it's a diplomat from nato with great. experience, or a distinguished defence correspondent- or the editor of the new yorker to discuss these things - in rational terms and figure out on a day—to—day- it is without precedent, or at least for a very i long time here. i'd already been speaking to david remnick, because the magazine is celebrating its 100th

it's famous for its range of coverage, from fiction to long reads, to its cartoons and to its arts coverage too. especially in a job like mine, is not spending all day- word is "that" or "which". there are grammatical rules for that, but whatever. - that posts things constantly during the day — _

so this is the magazine that, on the one hand, it didn't . break the news that an atomic bomb had been dropped - on hiroshima — the wire - services did that, or the radio now, we can't achieve i that every week, that's a pretty tall order. but i want to make sure that, just as, say, - timothy garton ash was writing about central and eastern - europe in the late '80s, - that we were doing that kind those longer pieces, of which the new yorker is very the process of making them.

you're famed for the number of queries that are raised help us understand. the writer sends in the first draft, it's 10,000 words or however long the piece is, what happens then? and then he or she sits down with the editor, i discussions about further work to be done on it. i ok'ers? ok'ers. what do they do? it's a higher version of copy editor. - or her voice, but clarity. this is a very high premium here. i people who not only — - and maybe ms lungescu has encountered some of these fact checkers over time, i to her distress or inspiration, i can't tell which — _

a complicated name correctly or get the dates right, - that you said this? is it true... and information, it's notjust a matter of. _ or may not be distorted here? what are the sources of information that l leads us to print x, y. or z? _ it's a complicated business. it is. are you concerned that, of course, not all americans, but an increasing number

of americans don't put is factually correct? a couple of angles. and misinformation out - in the world that's accelerated by social media and all the instruments that l are available to everyone - now that they weren't before. than that, i think, as we all have come to recognise. i but at the same time, - i think people are hungry — for places where they can read things that are... i and deep reporting. that is not thick on the ground. i attack, distortion, the use of information or- misinformation as a weapon. that's not the business i'm in.

and if you're asking me if it's hard, you're - damn right it's hard. and god bless you if you do. just clear up exactly what an ok'er is, because there sojust help us... "i need an ok'er at home," yeah. help us understand the role. what precisely is an ok'er doing? an ok'er is a higher version of copy... . copy editing is, you know, "that" and "which", - that is aimed at clarity and misdirection and i these are people... it's, again, it's expensive

and it takes time. - that is being thrown. we will do you proud. david, thank you very much for making time for us. many thanks to david remnick forjoining us on the media show. that wraps up this edition, i'll be back thank you very much indeed for watching, we'll see you soon. bye— bye. and if you'd like to hear a longer version hello there. across the uk, but ahead of it,

with some sunshine and a brisk and the warmest day since the 24th of november. this weekend will be a little cooler. saturday, we'll see a mixture of sunny spells sunday, though, we'll see more wet and windy weather sweeping in from the atlantic as well on these westerly winds that and that cloud and rain still hanging around into keeping temperatures a bit higher here.

the rain does move away from east anglia and the south—east fairly smartly. elsewhere, there'll be some sunny spells, a few showers grazing northern ireland, pushing into the north—west of scotland. one or two showers for england and wales as well, but many places will be dry. now, it's not going to be as warm as it was on friday, but still, it's a mild day, temperatures of 12 that's going to bring with it that band of rain. it's going to bring with it some stronger winds as well. around irish sea coasts and over the highlands and islands. and we've got this rain pushing slowly eastwards as well. heaviest rain over dumfries and galloway, south wales, and whilst it may become dry later in northern ireland, it should stay dry all day, really, across east anglia and the south—east of england. degrees quite widely.

overnight and into monday. the low pressure moves through and the winds tend to drop as well. it looks like it's going to be quite unsettled, really, through next week, not particularly windy. to normal, and for the most part, it's a mixture

live from washington, this is bbc news. "done nothing" to end the war in ukraine, ahead of their

the red cross says it has transferred a body to the israeli authorities, which hamas said was that of the hostage shiri bibas. in court in new york. ceo brian thompson. hello, i'm lucy hockings. criticising the leaders of the uk and france, as well as renewing his attack on president zelensky. president zelensky and didn't believe ukraine's leader needed the white house is insisting ukraine will soon sign