this is the scene live at ofer prison in israel, are to be released in exchange. us president trump fires senior officials at the pentagon, first in rafah, two hostages — tal shoham and avera mengistu —

they were then handed over to the israeli military. then, just over an hour ago, there was another release eliya cohen, omer shem tov and omer wenkert, of the israeli military and intelligence services. the last of the six to be freed today, it comes after israel said a body returned by hamas earlier this week was not that of shiri bibas, as they had claimed. her family has since said a new body handed over this is live in tel aviv, where a large crowd has gathered to watch the releases in a location that's become this is final part of the first phase of

let's speak to yossi mekelberg, senior associate fellow at chatham house. at chat very -iouse. at chat very much. at chat very much for being with us, a pretty stage—managed affair once again us, a pretty stage-managed affair once agair_ us, a pretty stage-managed affair once agai $7? on h affair once agai $7? on um affair once agai $7? on fighters on show, a big stage the handover, did you of j of it? 7 make of it? good afternoon, thank you — make of it? good afternoon, thank you for _ make of it? good afternoon, thank you for having me. - make of it? good afternoon, thank you for having me. i l thank you for having me. i think all this parading of mam mm ibm hostages is a signal to the and hostages families and hostages themselves, it has been more than days in really than 500 days in really difficult and difficult conditions, and probably we will hear the full stories in the fullness of time. but got in a if; est/aw way, to 7 way, tothat, 7 way, tothat, but we strange way, to that, but we need also to be we need also to be positive. we always said that the ceasefire fragile, is fragile, but the ile, is fragile, but the same is fragile, but the same time, ile, but the same time, both ut the same time, both sides, at the same time, both sides, all in all, despite violations,

kept to the reduced — not necessarily the spirit of the kept to the reduced — not necessaril we e spirit of the kept to the reduced — not necessaril we see irit of the kept to the reduced — not necessaril we see the )f the kept to the reduced — not necessaril we see the hostages ceasefire. we see the hesiegee as ceasefire. we see the hesteges as they paraded as they enter into palestinians back gaza, palestinians going back to their �*origin, so gaza, palestinians going back t( might �*origin, so gaza, palestinians going back t( might create �*origin, so gaza, palestinians going back t( might create some in, so gaza, palestinians going back t( might create some positive it might—create same pesitive but now, when the is about to end, we need state is about to end, we need to look at phase, to look at the second phase, which is even more complicated, involves both 7 involves both sides 7 because it involves both sides giving up different bargaining chips, hamas rest of the chips, hamas the rest of the hostages, israel moving to end or "$5665? " 2—277 7— the end of the war. to think it is possible — the end of the war. to think it is possible to _ the end of the war. to think it is possible to move _ the end of the war. to think it is possible to move to - the end of the war. to think it is possible to move to that. is possible to move to that second stage? or is in jeopardy? i second stage? or is in jeepardy?_ second stage? or is in 'eoard ? ~ ., ., ., jeopardy? i think, on one hand, it creates _ jeopardy? i think, on one hand, it creates some _ jeopardy? i think, on one hand, | it creates some _ but jeopardy? i think, on one hand, l it creates some _ but i it creates some momentum, but i think also because the sides some the aspects of violated some of the aspects of agreement on hostages, and this agreement on hostages, and what happened the especially what. happened in the few especially what. happened ih the few days, eepeeiettg whet heppehe'd ih the few days, with the

last few days, with the cynical parading �* coffins of 77 i think it happened children, i think it happened the little trust that was even the little trust that was over the last few weeks. built over the last few weeks. but i think that the but ithinkthatiswhere the enter into the mediators enter into the frame, and it is very important that we move to the second phase. at the end of the day, the most important is that comes �*comes to end �* comes to end and war comes to an end and that there political =-= the war, because we saw beyond the war, because we saw the consequences when is political horizon. i'_/ no political hdrizcm is there no political horizon is there on benjamin pressureeis—there one benjamin from within pressureeis—there ens benjamin from within the netanyahu from within the coalition partners, of coalition partners, some of them have said they will not stay if the stay in government if the phase gecond phase is implemented—7— pressure is from two the pressure is from two different directions. most israelis want to see the ceasefire agreement three ceasefire agreement in three ditaiess they to

phases, because they want to see the hostages home, and see the hostages leach home and has been, from the this has been, from the beginning of the war, but on the other hand, from netanyahu, the other hand, from netanyahu, the most thing is to the most important thing is to stay in power. shows, you 27:2 his cynical 7 hiscynicalside it to the hostages, comes to the hostages, preferring keeping the over government together over having the hostages back, and probably we found out with three more arriving, one hostages arriving, one party has i —: the has already left the government, the other is —§¥ ——¥ etoz do so h etozdoszo if ' 16 am h; threatening to do so if he agrees to the end of the war. but that what but that is what the international community and especially the mediators in washington coming into the 72 7: ' it; ' " ” to decide, frame, he needs to decide, whether it is in the interests of israel coming first or his gfjsragl coming first or his in power is his main survival in power is his main priority. survival in power is his main riori . ., . ., priority. how much influence do ou think priority. how much influence do you think the — priority. how much influence do you think the us _ priority. how much influence do you think the us i have - priority. how much influence do you think the us i have in - stage? iterate

stage? the haee seen this next stage? we have seen with president trump, in some ways, a kind of transactional geopolitics at play when it comes to ukraine or other areas. what is your take on how he's to influence the he's going to influence the if at all? , stage, if at all? the president ofthe stage, if at all? the president of the united _ stage, if at all? the president of the united states, - stage, if at all? the president of the united states, it - stage, if at all? the president of the united states, it does i of the united states, it does not build with complexity and empathy in his contribution, it is unhelpful to say the least, when he talks that it harms when he talks that eventually the aim is to eventually the aine is to forcefully probably, remove, forcefully pro ba bly, the remove, forcefully probably, the dozen people, this is very unhelpful, let alone immoral and against law. needs to put pressure on he needs to put pressure on to have the second netanyahu to have the second phase and then have serious netanyahu to have the second phase and then�* the: serious netanyahu to have the second phase and then�* the future is netanyahu to have the second phase and then�* the future of new gaza, reconstructing, new governance without hamas inside gaza, bringing back the 7; authority,

if”? 7 7 authority, might palestinian authority, we might stand a chance. but the trump 5:1;an a chance. but the trump is 3;an a chance. but the trump is one that makes it so world is one that makes it so difficult to on anything. difficult to focus on anything. are again the we are watching again the pictures of the hostages being put up on stage and a dgt up on stage and a parading what a bit like a kind of whatloohs abit like a hind military might from hamas, they haveé 7 they havefbeen 7 they havefbeen very 7 but they have been very much weakened in 15 months of war. but they have been very much weai much in 15 months of war. but they have been very much weai much is is months of war. but they have been very much weai much is this onths of war. but they have been very much weai much is this for hs of war. but they have been very much weai much is this for show? ar. but they have been very much weai much is this for show? how how much is this for show? how much do have a much do they have a genuine residual forceful presence in gaza? i residual forceful presence in gaza? , , ., ., gaza? ithink it is both, no doubt that— gaza? ithink it is both, no doubt that they _ gaza? ithink it is both, no doubt that they lost - gaza? ithink it is both, no doubt that they lost many | gaza? i think it is both, no i doubt that they lost many of their people in the war, some say up to in their say up to 20,000 in their military capability. think military capability. i think what they think is that it is a lit/hit they think is that it issa of power, it shows their show of power, it shows their weakness and also detachment, —s ithe’world ' �* the world sees that. 7 �*the world sees that. but, how the world sees that. but, yes, they a hold on yes, they still have a hold on the gazan population, they are

yes, they still have a hold on the in zan population, they are yes, they still have a hold on the in controlulation, they are yes, they still have a hold on the in control of tion, they are yes, they still have a hold on the in control of much they are yes, they still have a hold on the in control of much of y are yes, they still have a hold on the in control of much of it, re still in control of much of it, very much in of very much in control of the humanitarian aid, so they are a force to reckon with. it is for people to the palestinian people to decide who they want to govern, us from the outside. not for us from the outside. but if they want to a but if they want to reach a point at which there is a z state, these palestinian state, these militant groups do not have a hold. ., hold. you mentioned the palestinian _ hold. you mentioned the palestinian - issue, i hold. you mentioned the - palestinian - issue, what palestinian state issue, what did you make of talks that nggygngake of the talks that in riyadh yesterday happened in riyadh yesterday the arab states and between the arab states and saudi arabia, and where that is heading in trying to come up with a solution for what is nextin with a solution for what is next in gaza? i with a solution for what is next in gaza?— with a solution for what is next in gaza? are extremely meetings are extremely and i think et= the ideas coming from of the ideas coming from at the washingtnn at the tenement ww“? it washington at the tenement �* it is washington at the moment �* it is or washington at the moment �* its or washington at the moment

�* it focuses or washington at the moment �* it focuses the or washington at the moment �* it focuses the mind to ukraine, it focuses the mind to come up with constructive ideas, and that is exactly what seeing right now, you we're seeing right now, you pushing more than know, because pushing more than 2 million people tojordan and egypt is, again, morally wrong full and counter—productive and destabilisethe destabilise the region, would destabilise the region, that makes it very so that makes it very important.— so that makes it very important. so that makes it very imortant. , , y important. just briefly, can ou important. just briefly, can you sum — important. just briefly, can you sum up _ important. just briefly, can you sum up the _ important. just briefly, can you sum up the mood - important. just briefly, can you sum up the mood now| important. just briefly, can i you sum up the mood now in you suneupthemood now in at this juncture? i israelat thiejuncture? a, there are feelings think there are mixed feelings on so many levels, you know, on so many levels. you hnowe nearly 17 on so many levels. you hnow. nearly 17 months of or} so many levels. you hnow. nearly 17 months of this after nearly 17 months of this war, is elation in a way war, there is elation in a way that the hostages are being 777 7 77 luci? boa}; buts—777.7 e bodies77a re back, there is coming back, there is uncertainty, we saw on a lot of uncertainty, thursday, a lot of uncertainty, and this is a nation suffering from trauma, and i think that 777w5y75f777 7 77 7 7 7 7wayof77healing7 7 7 7 7 7wayof77he7a7lin7g7ls7ra7el7i 7 the way of healing israeli society, the is still

society, the recovery, is still a way together. society, the recovery, is still a - way together.- society, the recovery, is still a - way together. a long way together. thank you very much _ a long way together. thank you very much indeed, _ a long way together. thank you very much indeed, yossi - veryr neuch indeed. yossi " ”r for sharing your mekelberg, for sharing your the thank with me is sharihan al—akhras from bbc arabic. thank you for coming in, we have been watching, obviously, they hand and the other they hand over, and the other side of it that we have not about, the prisoner ai we , the prisoner ai we have prisoner ai we have pris pictures the 7 the box 157451“ $f77 77 77 77 77t7h7e7 b7ox ofthe 7 7 7 77 in the box of the prison, tell us we expect in the timings. there is much anticipation _ timings. there is much anticipation about - timings. there is much - anticipation about. release anticipation aboutthe e'ease palestinian prisoners of the palestinian prisoners and detainees, as we have seen in previous days, a lot of reunions, emotions. families. reunions. and a lot of debate emotions. families. reunions. the a lot of debate emotions. families. reunions. the state of debate emotions. families. reunions. the state of the ate about the state of the prisoners, much is prisoners,;;much as is present the state of the hostages with the state of the hedagef— — .- ———————— have seen in the previous we have seen in the previous days and weeks. so there days and weeks. so today there is a lot of talk about numbers, as we mentioned earlier, about 600, 50 of these prisoners are sentenced to life sentences, 60 prisoners long sentences, prisoners with long sentences, and 47 detainees were arrested

the 2011 the2oiigilad 7 after the 2011 gilad shalit deal, they will be released as and there is also about well. and there is also about 445 detainees from the gaza who were arrested after strip who were arrested after october the 7th and are meets? the sen and this aha to e5=tfiif7eh the see the the? as to be released ease» the 5th ehe' thee ahe to be released as expected to be released as well. ~ . ; well. what happens when they are released? _ well. what happens when they are released? so _ well. what happens when they are released? so there - well. what happens when they are released? so there is - well. what happens when they are released? so there is also| are released? so there is also ..- 7.7 ...s about the are released? so there is also we we we about the cominu discussion about the coming and what will happen to stages and—what will happen to of course, some are e 7 to go back home, expecting to go back home, certainly theirfamilies expecting to go back home, certainly their families are 7 them to go them to go back on, expecting them to go back on, but with life sentences 777 7l7o7ng long sentences who are dangerous 77 dangerous by israel, considered dangerous by israel, there discussion about there is discussion about deportation. the stage deportation. the first stage is expected to egypt, and then expected to be egypt, and then perhaps there could be other destinations such as turkey, qatar, even pakistan qatar, perhaps even pakistan and malaysia.— qatar, perhaps even pakistan and malaysia. isbeing 777777 is 7be7i7hg7released, 7777 is 7be7i7hg7released, tell us the 7 the types of prisoners in about the types of prisoners in the first stages of the hostage impaired with you are release impaired with you are now being released today. so

is different 7i7s di7f7fe7r7e7n7t7about is different about today that 7 that is 7 that is a 7 that is a bit 7 that is a bit slower 7 that is a bit slower than7 that days, t slower tha n7 that days, because tha n7 that days, because thei77 previous days, because the number is higher, as number is certainly higher, as we mentioned earlier, hundreds of prisoners are expected to be there is of released, but there is of course name that keeps coming released, but there is of cou the name that keeps coming released, but there is of cou the longest hat keeps coming released, but there is of cou the longest serving as coming up, the longest serving palestinian prisoner, nael in prisons, barghouti, in israeli prisons, he was initially 1978 hey/as jailed initially in 1978 the killing �* an following the killing.of;.an bus driver, and of israeli bus driver, and of course he released following the 2011 exchange deal that we mentioned, one soldier 7 soldier was released israeli soldier was'released 1027 prisoners, the gilad and 1027 prisoners, the gilad shalit deal that we talked 77 77777pre7viou7s7ly. 7 7 7 7 77 7 paisley. and 7 7 7 77 7 paisley. and then 7 7 77 7 paisley. and then he about previously. and then he was sentenced has his was very much sentencing was very much disputed. of different disputed. of course. different some israeli perhaps sagar perhaps sat;r that it eras to perhaps sat;r that it eras to speech sat;r that it eras to speech he g that it eras to speech he g tha’ at eras to speech he g tha’ at a as palestinian reports 7e=z he was nominated to the say he was nominated to the of minister of ees't'eh et eih'eteh'et 7777 77 $0 eeeit'eh et 1511ihietetet 7777 77 so his second arrest

prisoners. so his secs-e arrest he was sentenced 72: z-n= life in prison again in to life in prison againin . w . . wew 'ust to life in prison again in” ewe . . just to : h-— z “— there is a sense of thereees a sens on�* thersees a sens on both distrust, of course, on both sides, we have been monitoring 7— -£ it is clear, 7 it is clear, of 7 that. it is clear, but of from the palestinian there is a sense oersoectielee—there—ieasense — —— — the dersoectieleethere—ieasense — —— — the fact that the of grievance. the fact that the is not really seen as a release is not really seen as a release is not really seen as a release but some sort of other sentencing, especially that they are likely not to be reunited with their loved ones. and controversial on the side, because in the israeli side, because in the who have been past, prisoners who have been released have gone on pose to 7 to israeli7society, mentioned the exchange. with shalit, your mentioned the exchangewith shalit, your house in gilad shalit, your house in what was of the people was what was one of the people was exchanged at that point, and he went on to plan the then went on to plan the october the tax. —— yahya sinwar. there any sinwar. are there any safeguards when people are is it a straight released? is itjust a straight release? this released? is it 'ust a straight release? �* , release? as we mentioned, we are still monitoring, _ release? as we mentioned, we are still monitoring, but - release? as we mentioned, we are still monitoring, but the i are still monitoring, but the thing that keeps coming up is the sense of distrust on both the an: at distrust sham " " ' ' the an: at distrust sham " " ' ' the fact that, on the

sides, the fact that, on the palestinian side, there are reports of re—arrests, especially as we mentioned with the top name nael 99% of palestinian barghouti, 99% of palestinian are in courts cases are in military courts and ending convictions, and they feel the language barrier 777777help help. so7 7 help. so7the7 in doesn't help. so the process in is very much under itself is very much under question, but on other question, but on the other side, the israeli sentiment is that there is danger and it is unlikely that prisoners unlikely that those prisoners will be allowed to in, will be allowed to stay in, because you said of the because like you said of the danger that they pose. send danger that they—poses — ~ go back to this, obviously to go leach to this. oleviously . of the phased deal, part of the phased deal, how much concern is there in gaza that, actually, it is pretty fragile and i may not be a phased two?— fragile and i may not be a hased two? ., , y . phased two? ;;t;h .e' e-e7 oint, phased two? ;;t;h .e' e-~.eeu.. oint, there phased two? at! ' — i point, there reports 7 people on the people on the ground, from people on the ground, is to people as e:§?' .. sesame..- people and �* the z:— 22: to be there, independent media to be there, but the sentiment that we have hattheeeettment theta-e haee monitoring on hdttheeeettment theta-e haee monitoring on ground been monitoring on the ground is that people are very much tired, really holding breath ilor the breath liar the success oi

their breath for the success of this ceasefire, that has been their breath for the success of this cease time that has been their breath for the success of this cease time and has been their breath for the success of this cease time and again fen their breath for the success of this cease time and again asi descrilsed tinee ans'againes' ~~ much 7 7 what 7 7 what come 77 ”we; 7 7 gambling arab summit on the that is largely in —77 to the 7 7 to the 7t7ru7mp response to the trump suggestion of relocating the people of which has been people of gaza, which has been very much rejected by the people within neighbouring countries. 50 people within neighbouring countries.— people within neighbouring countries. ., ., countries. re? 7722? ;% been much was; ww - been much improvement in there been much improvement in aid going on? that was one the aid going on? that was one of the conditions the first the at aid the oil aid going that happening? in she-old mereaee has that ' "' "’ ha eninu? ., in she-old mereaee has that ' "' "’ haueninu? ., , been happening? that is absolutely _ been happening? that is absolutely correct, - been happening? that is absolutely correct, and i been happening? that is| absolutely correct, and if been happening? that is- absolutely correct, and if you eh:""e'. "'“s-t seed— ie�* .- ——— — a couple of weeks 7 77a 7c7ou7p7le agate as, recall a couple of weeks back, hamas threatened not to release recall a couple of weeks back, hamas tt because not to release recall a couple of weeks back, hamas tt because it ot to release recall a couple of weeks back, hamas tt because it said release recall a couple of weeks back, hamas tt because it said israel;e z not aid, and was not allowing aid, and responded that if israel responded that if do not get released, hostages do not get released, then spy is definitely under question and we may not continue. but efforts, especially by mediators, qatar, the us, are really egypt and the us, are really pushing 1640 00:15:52,658 --> 00:15