and we better be close to a deal. bridget philipson and shadow defence secretary james cartlidge are here. other countries on russia's borders look nervously on, this time as the boss, but has this generation to things that you happen to disagree with at the moment, that's not good.

with me throughout the show are stephen fry, writer and broadcaster, zanny minton beddoes, editor of the economist, and the former chief whip, who was by rishi sunak�*s side in the grisly last days of his government, who's been spilling secrets. let's start as we always do with the news. tonnes of coverage looking ahead to the white house meeting. the sunday telegraph joins in the, will he, won't he, guessing the defence secretary tells the sunday times "a bad peace and alongside another story

on the front of the sun on sunday too to stand up for ukraine, saying we must avoid a putin disaster. and of course there are concerns about the pope's health, so, plenty talk about, very warm to all of you. the warm welcome to all of you. the focus for most in news is focus for most people in the news is what is happening in ukraine, and had 7 had a 7 7 gd 5 gaging" ’ w the economist had a striking front—page this week, tell us front—page this week, just tell us what moved you to this what moved you to describe this moment as europe's worst nightmare. ;;j worst this europe's worst nightmare because there are two people. donald and "m"wandfli/ladimir” and vladimir putin and empty trump and vladimir putin and empty chairs which are people who ought to = -:=: at this conversation, zelensky, be at this conversation, zelensky, the example and the is on the eve of the w 77 "i£§a'ti{e"ev’;1>f'ifié m " big shock is on the eve of the third anniversary of invasion of

unprovoked 7 77 77 unprovoked invasion of ukraine, unprovoked invasion of to the biggest war in europe leading to the biggest war in europe since second world war the shock came from and came has come from weshing�*tpn'end'cnme' president who from president trump, who has attacked very personally, volodymyr —7i77:: =7zszz 7 him a dictator 7 7 7 him a dictatorand7 host7ility the us—led us to the hostility from the us—led us to think that the europeans should question i: would be question whether the us would be there for in that is there for them in wartime, that is why it is worst nightmare. spent a huge amount of time in you spent a huge amount of time in ukraine, stephen, you have been trying to help people through not 7 a conflict a crisis for just a conflict but a crisis for civilians, what is on your mind at the ~ ., , the moment? we might get into this later but i i; by- the moment? we might get into this later but i g by the | later but i am deeply worried by the darkening _ later but i am deeply worried by the darkening going over the darkening shadow going over the world, _ darkening shadow going over the world, - we _ darkening shadow going over the world, we have to call a cult of power and . a cult of power and power- it's a cult of power and power only speaks _ it's a cult of power and power only speaks to— it's a cult of power and power only speaks to forker and the worry is sepee'ee term-”leer end. �*w - m— spee'eeterfereer ené'the a, is contempt trump epee'ee'te—ferlce-r ené'the a, is contempt trump as has spee'eeterfereer ené'the a, is contempt trump as has the the contempt trump as putin has the contempt _ the contempt trump as putin has the contempt trump has for british politicians macron, we will see

eelitieiefie foam. nathan ese fill. eee - happens eelitieiefie ff-fi. matrnfi fee fill. eee - w— enlititiefie ff-em. matrnfi we wi'll eee happens in germany, enlititiefie ff-em. matrnfi we will eee happens in germany, they enlititiefie ff-fi. matrnfi we will eee happens in germany, they have what happens in germany, they have push alternative for tried—te—push theatte—rn,’ the tried tee—push the—attemativeier _ the ultra - tried tee—push the—attemative fer the ultra right deutschland, the ultra right party and - have _ deutschland, the ultra right party and have supported it. so it é777757577777_ i’i’y , e worry .s.sgs.eeeeee§e%ee§ee ' 7 e worry, it is a 2a % worry, it is a desperate, ; is a real worry, it is a desperate, desperate — is a real worry, it is a desperate, desperate time. let is a real worry, it is a desperate, desperate time.— is a real worry, it is a desperate, desperate time. moment - moment of| moment of invasion itself, all 7 773711770? 77 all of comes 7 all of comes the've because all of this comes at the've of the anniversary, simon you were government that 7 government that the 7 government that the call must come that russian tanks were have come that russian tanks were across the border. i rolling across the border. i remember it too clearly. i felt z= § 2urs aftefidjst about 24 hours after we had just titted _ about 24 hours after we had just titted the — about 24 hours after we had just lifted the - restrictions - about 24 hours after we had just lifted the - restrictions on . about 24 hours after we had justl lifted the - restrictions on the lifted the final restrictions on the pandemic— lifted the final restrictions on the pandemic and _ lifted the final restrictions on the pandemicand i— lifted the final restrictions on the pandemic and i - thinking - lifted the final restrictions on the i pandemic and i - thinking with so soon after 7 so soon after that 7 so 5 pressure that so s pressure ont so 5 pressure on the extraordinary pressure on the country— extraordinary pressure on the country another— extraordinary pressure on the country another one - extraordinary pressure on the country another one had - extraordinary pressure on the - country another one had emerged and one which— country another one had emerged and one which we — country another one had emerged and one which we hadn't _ country another one had emerged and one which we hadn't really— one which we hadn't really expected, to fair— one which we hadn't really expected, to fairl boris— one which we hadn't really expected, to fair. boris johnson _ one which we hadn't really expected, to fair. boris johnson he _ one which we hadn't really expected, to fair. borisjohnson he didn't- to fair to borisjohnson he didn't ntiss— to fair to borisjohnson he didn't miss a _ to fair to borisjohnson he didn't miss a beat. _ to fair to borisjohnson he didn't miss a beat, he _ to fair to borisjohnson he didn't miss a beat, he went _ to fair to borisjohnson he didn't miss a beat, he went from - to fair to borisjohnson he didn't miss a beat, he went from one i to fair to borisjohnson he didn't- miss a beat, he went from one crisis miss a beat. he went tram. cute crisis the miss a beat. he went tram. cute crieis - the other miss a beat. he went tram. ene crieis - the other and it seemed - miss a beat. he went tram. ene crieis - the other and it seemed that. know, he was, he - know, he was, he was - 7777 fuly77 2 know, he was, he was fully wear 9” know he was he was full wear what you know he was he was fully wear i m_ you know he was he was fully wear i what needed to be _ you know he was he was fully wear i what needed to be done, - you know he was he was fully wear i what needed to be done, but- you know he was he was fully wearl i what needed to be done, but there of what needed to be done, but there there was— of what needed to be done, but there there was another— of what needed to be done, but there there was another memory _ of what needed to be done, but there there was another memory - was i of what needed to be done, but therej

there was another memory - was a thefe was another memor that wasa ovation thefe was another memory that wasa ovation parliament standing ovation that parliament .ave standing ovation that parliament gave to — standing ovation that parliament gave to the _ standing ovation that parliament gave to the ukraine _ standing ovation that parliament gave to the ukraine and - standing ovation that parliament - gave to the ukraine and ambassador to the _ gave to the ukraine and ambassador to the - torque _ gave to the ukraine and ambassador to the - torque the _ te tne'e'ereine'ter’eee the _ speech - te tne'e'ereine'ter’eee eng; _ speech that —:=7 to parlient : to parlient round 7 - to parlient round that - é to parlient round that time. gaye to parliament round that time. we - forget _ gaye to parliament round that time. we - forget the _ gaye to parliament round that time. we - forget the extraordinaryj = -=7 e _—e levels of unity and respect that we showed _ levels of unity and respect that we showed ukraine _ levels of unity and respect that we showed ukraine - and - levels of unity and respect that we showed ukraine - and we - levels of unity and respect that we i showed ukraine - and we should showed ukraine then and we should continue _ showed ukraine then and we should continue to— showed ukraine then and we should continue to show. we - showed ukraine then and we should continue to m continue to show now. we will be back with you _ continue to show now. we will be back with you later _ continue to show now. we will be back with you later in _ continue to show now. we will be - back with you later in . programme it7 7 it7 has 77 it7 has been 77 it7 has been as 77 it has been as we have been because it has been as we have been an extraordinary few days. to a dreadful ceaesefire deal. and this morning, ukraine says russia has attacked it that's just these 24 hours — you'd be forgiven if your heads spinning from the last seven days. of who said what about the future of ukraine in this extroardinary week. not going to have a country left. gotta move, got to move fast.

you can't end a war- if you don't talk to both sides, and that's what we're doing. with ukraine. macon's a friend of mine and i've met with the prime minister and, education secretary bridget phillipson is with me today. we will talk about education in a we will talk about education in a few minutes but we must start with few minutes but we must start with ukraine. let us then, with ukraine. let us start then, with ukraine. let us start then, with donald trump's that keir donald trump's accusation that keir not done anything to try starmer�*s not done anything to try etefanre net eene éfifiififig as in?” c- -. -.,, fail to fail the war, was he right to end etefanre net eene éfifihjiig as in?” c- -. -.,, fail war, he eterrt’rere net eetee engthfing te itjrngff ff ff fff fail war, he right to end to fail the war, was he right to end the war, was he right or wrong? i the war, was he right or wrong? i think president trump is right to think president trump is right to draw to the fact draw attention to the fact that any settle m e nt 7 lasting settlement where it comes to settlement where 7 settlement where it 7 to lasting settlement where it comes to peace for ukraine must involve eu peace for ukraine must involve eu

nation, european allies including britain stepping up and playing a bigger contribution, that is why we do believe there will be a need for additional defence investment, with that move towards 2.5% we will set out a way forward to approach but in the budget, the chancellor set out, last year, we did commit an additional 3 billion into defence. on that specific point, was donald trump right or wrong to suggest that keir starmer has failed to do anything to try to end the war?

keir starmer has failed to do anythin a to try to end the war? keir starmer has failed to do anythin a full y to end the war? keir starmer has failed to do anythin a full role end the war? keir starmer has failed to do anythin a full role for the war? keir starmer has failed to do anythin a full role for ukrainian involve a full role for ukrainian voices as part of that.- involve a full role for ukrainian voices as part of that. you don't want to say whether hear you don't want to say whether it was right or wrong as donald trump that keir starmer done to stop this : he nothing to stop this war. was he to pick up the phone to putin u i do think that is vladimir putin u i do think that is the riahts vladimir putin u i do think that is the rights approach, _ vladimir putin u i do think that is the rights approach, president i vladimir putin u i do think that is - the rights approach, president trump has the russians to the has brought the russians to the table, but lasting setment where table, but any lasting setment where it comes to peace does require ukrainian voice, president zelensky�*s voice to a central eeleneeg�*e �*s'eice te begertrgl firflrfiflflww of eeleneeg�*e eeice te beau-wei ~ , ,, ,, ,, of that. can be no dart ef that, there can be rle unless we dart ef that, there can he he unless we have a but that you 777777 77 77you said president trump interesting you said president trump was right to bring russia to the table, becauseliness absolutely. that call vladimir that phone call—to �*jladimir—pptin by donald that phone call—to �*jladimir—potin by donald stunned madesbysdonaldtrumpsstcinnee western , appalled some madesbysdonathrumpest-sinned western , appalled some people diplomats appalled some people because it brought vladimir putin from the cold and ou are e777 it was 7the 7 7777 it was7the right it was 7the right to 7777 it was7the right to do. .s be e c be no 7 be no settlement without there can he ne settlen’lent witheet we are however, clear russia, we are however, also clear the that russia

in the risk that russia and president putin poses to our president putin poses to out a” . that of applies interests, that of course applies in of europe and flee come of terms of europe and flee come of democracy, so there are national security implication, the 227: fogoo'g’ong poisonings, the ongoing aggression we face from russia. this government and the previous _ we face from russia. this government and the previous government - we face from russia. this government and the previous government was - and the previous government was clear about the threats from russia, it interesting that for tor the tact without welcome for the fact without consultation with allies, donald consultation with allies. donald picked up the phone to trump picked up the phone to vladimir putin, bringing him infrom the when he had been excluded, the cold, when he had been excluded, andioned by much of the 7 e international community e negotiated peace will negotiated peace settlement will have to involve russia and ukraine and we want to support that process, we are also determined to do is strongest put ukraine in the strongest position as we enter those possible position as we enter those and as your piece negotiations and as your piece demonstrated there, every day, ukraine continues to face the aggression as part of that illegal 77�* russia launched 7 77�* russia launched against 7 77�* russia launched against them and war russia launched against them and yarns are fighting every day

ukraine yarns are fighting every day the front line so it has never more urgent we continue ukrain7e going to what i hope bolster—ukraine going—to—what lerhepe be a n bolster—ukraine going—to—what lerhepe be an enduring settlement but is is a way to go. there is is a long way to go. and of there is is a long way to go. and - of people _ there is is a long way to go. and - of people who _ there is is a long way to go. and of people who work in this many of people who work in this world, many of political world, many of your political rivals, people like the boss nato, would sa it is also urent of nato, would say it is also urgent that countries like britain commit to spend more money. now commit to spend more money, potentially a lot more money on now commit to spend more money, potential now, t more money on now commit to spend more money, potential now, when 3 money on now commit to spend more money, potential now, whene money ( into defence, now, when you came into government, yes you had commitment spend 7 7 �* percent spend 7 �*percent of 93593“ twof-afndf-fa'fhelf percent of national income, 93593“ twof-afndf-fef-helj percent of national income, at point the national income, at some point on defence, but for seven longmonts, as the security has ee eee ee=urifeeituetififi hee ee the7 ee=et"ee'*eet'eh hee —— month ee theeee�*it'ee't�*iet'eh hee —— month you worsened, —— long month you haven't given an answer, will makes that given an answer, will you makes that. i . , ., given an answer, will you makes that. i won't , ., given an answer, will you makes that. i won't em given an answer. will you makes that, i won't- doing on today on pathway i won't be doing it today on the programme. we will set that the programme. we will set out that pathway but i should be clear, i pathway but i should be clear. i be clearly the so yes 77 so yes it been so yes it been seven government'so yes—ithasheen seyen' the had 14 month, the conservatives had 14 year, they hollowed out our defence forces is one of the previous

forces which is one of the previous secretaries made clear, we defence secretaries made clear, we recognise the need to invest more, recognise the need to invest more ~ , ~ ~ , ~ ~ is why recognise the need to invest more ., , ~ ~ , ~ ,, is why the receenise the need to invest more ., , ,, ,, , ,, ,, is why the chancellor that is why the chancellor invested 3 billion into defence spending alongside the single pay el—es—feocrs. as. c e,., , . for forces so there is an rise for armed forces so there is an acknowledge. and recognition there and our foo’oo’orgma 7 andourall|es the 7 7 andourall|es the not; 77 no oo}f;m'e's'f ”phonon; us and our allies about the need to increase defence spending but the defence secretary has been clear, that alongside increased spending has . be - spending, is is . be - spending, is too be - spending, is too much - spending, is too much waste, snding, is too much waste, poorg, there is tee anech waste.— eeee— there is tee anech waste.— peoreee , bad decisions being procurement and bad decisions being made alongside investment made so alongside extra investment there has to a programme of there has to be a programme of reform john healey has out. but reform john healey has set out. but a recognition that there to e recognition that there hee te ee cash. a recognition that there hee . cash. , a recognition that there heeiohe - w a recognition that there heeiohe - cashi doesn't do i e recognition that there hee to ee cash. yes. doesn't do much for more cash. yes. doesn't do much for --eole more cash. yes. doesn't do much for people like — more cash. yes. doesn't do much for people like the _ more cash. jes doesn't do much for people like the boss of nato, people more cash. jes doesn't do much for peo the ike the boss of nato, people more cash. jes doesn't do much for peo the chief re boss of nato, people more cash. jes doesn't do much for peo the chief of joss of nato, people more cash. jes doesn't do much for peo the chief of the of nato, people more cash. jes doesn't do much for peo the chief of the defence, people more cash. jes doesn't do much for peo the chief of the defence staff ple sat in that chair not long who sat in that chair not long ago said we are in a �* dangerous and said we are in a new dangerous moment, there must be more money for defence. you have had seven month and you still even tell us defence. you have had seven month and you 5 are even tell us defence. you have had seven month and you 5 are going ven tell us defence. you have had seven month and you 5 are going to n tell us defence. you have had seven month and you 5 are going to n tr the; defence. you have had seven month and you 5 are going to n tr the target have already 77 77 have already sgt. 77 you have already set. i more you have already mg

- more investmfi you have already set. . f more investment going into we recognise is more do we recognise is more do but we recognise is more do but i�*e recognise is more do but i�*e recc point 7 is7 more do but i�*e recc point out, is7 more do but i�*e recc point out, ye7s nore to do but i would point out, yes absolutely, seven months, the last lot 14 year, and their plan to —:=: = -=: this was just a this was7just a joke. this wasit a 'oke. . . do this was 'ust a 'oke. they had a timetable. h do this wasjust a 'oke. they had a timetable. set — do this wasjust a 'oke. they had a timetable. set a — do this wasjust a joke. they had a timetable. set a timetable. - do this wasjust a joke. they had a timetable. set a timetable. the i timetable. set a timetable. the conservatives had set a timetable when hair wither going to hit that target and we will speak to them target and we will speak to—t ~ �*- target and we will speak to—ta a a- later. which was rick called. what eo - le later. which was rick called. what people want _ later. which was rick called. what people want . know, _ later. which was rick called. what people want . know, is _ later. which was rick called. what people want . know, is when - later. which was rick called. what i people want . know, is when people people want to know, is when people will sear your to 2.5 people want to know, is when people will searyour to 2.5 spending, willgsear your plan to 2.5 spending, of £50 billion and other the boss 7777 thebossof the boss of nato, the eeeele the heee fit eeffi the ele are eeeele the eeee et eeee the ele are saying eeeeee ehe eeee ee eeee ehe e!e are saying it needs to be president, are saying it needs to be much more than do you muchfimore than that.,d,o,you that 2.5% might not end being enough i is ambitious and last time that. achieved the last time that was aehieved ener �* a the last time that was aehieved ener �*a labour government. the last time that was aehieved ener �*a labour government. it is a kerr a labour government. it is a commitment weed made, we are to deliver ” ” ' 'isfiéfiv’efine ’ 7 to deliver and we ” ” ' 'is'ééiivé};'na we mu determined to deliver and we will out that pathway, but you will

melam not ina me i am not in a -osition on forgive me i am not in a position on �* programme to give you that your programme to give you that information, but others will your programme to give you that informat what ut others will your programme to give you that informat what that hers will your programme to give you that informat what that timetable confirm, whatthattimetabte topics the towards confirm, whatthat'cimetabte looks the towards it and confirm, whatthat'cimetable looks the towards it and we confirm, whatthat'cimetable looks already towards it and we confirm, whatthat'cimetable looks already tov more t and we confirm, whatthat'cimetable looks already tov more in nd we are already investing more in defences both hear and the £3 billion a year we are additional £3 billion a—yearwe are towards defence to putting towards defence spending, to bolster the ukrainian the eee’e�*eee ehe e!eeeihteh eeeeee" 7 w ”w" the eeezeee eh= e!eeeihteh eeeee�*ee" 7 77 ”w" the prime eeezeee eh= e!e.eeihteh eeeee�*ee" 7 77 ”w" the prime minister tell the will the prime minister tell the president this week? i will the prime minister tell the president this week?— will the prime minister tell the president this week? ! eff”; have president this week? ! eff—”a, have addition president this week? ! em eee “'ee - have addition cusfi president this week? ! em eee “'ee - have addition cushion an i president this week? ! em eee “'ee - have addition cushion an howfi president this week? ! emgfli “'ee - have addition cushion an how we "baa ontha’tr ' ’ ,,, w 7 build on that special arebuildfon that special and the peace relationship, and the peace settlement in ukraine, defenced settlement in. leraineeedefenced on the settlement in leraineeedefenced on the part of both the uk spending on the part of both the uk and our allies, spending on the part of both the uk and ourallies, i spending on the part of both the uk and our allies, i am sure will be a feature. but the secretary of state, ou know feature. but the secretary of state, you know this _ feature. but the secretary of state, you know this i an _ feature. but the secretary of state, you know this i an absolutely - feature. but the secretary of state, you know this i an absolutely key i from dmaj�*i eeeei eee: . ee ee if from donald if america to give a security guarantee to which e which jpfime minister europe, which the prime minister has been publish about wanting that, saying that is he expects saying that is vital, he expects europe to spend a lot more on defence, so will keir starmer reassure the president this week,

the uk will s-end much more on defence? we will be spenflg -- . - on defence defence? we will be spendingmueh - on menom— defence? we will be spendingmueh - on «emm— defence? we will be spen ' - on defence and our need more on defence and our allies need to step up alongside but let be clear. 2.5’s is ambitious. we us be clear, 2.5% is ambitious, we will but it is ambitious will get there but it is ambitious and this is in the context of the finances, which let us be public finances, which let us be honest were left any a devastating state by the conservative, a £22 73155; (1131; 77 7 black (1&1;an 7 black 5&1;an credible”? black hole, no credible plan billion black hole, no credible plan for in nonsense they claim about how they were going to reach 2.5%, what we will will set out will be a credible plan to deliver with a pathway towards it. but also where are are spending e are spending it e are spending it well. ethere money we are spending it well.—there too waste and inefficiency we need' programme of reform as and we need' programme of reform as the defence secretary has set out. i am not sure some of your rivals would say 2.5% is in times am not sure some of your rivals wol these. !.5% is in times am not sure some of