trump has an electoral mandate, but that doesn't put him above the law. or does it? will america's constitutional checks and balances these are questions of global significance. worldwide democracy�*s in trouble, authoritarianism my guest isjonathan sumption, lord sumption, of a book on democracy�*s prospects. how bleak are they?

jonathan sumption, lord sumption, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. and as is the way with books, there's a time lag between writing and publication. so you wrote it last year. ijust wonder, as you sit with me today, whether you are now more worried about the state of democracy. since then, of course, donald trump, who is probably had, has been elected, and that is causing ripples all over the world. "has been elected", i guess, is the phrase that matters here. i mean, he has a mandate and he is, in his own words, well, a mandate to do what?

the difference is that an absolute monarch is not constrained by law — he can do what he likes. so the role of law in this is actually on what he can do. you over years have, i know, followed the research into people's feelings about democracy and their feelings and you are very candid in saying that what we see at the moment is a trend toward more and more people, particularly young people, saying that they favour the idea of strongman governance rather than representative democracy. a number of reasons. are generated of the state in any mass democracy, expectations, many of which the state is actually of satisfying except at

the expense of other things that people value just as much. and is the state guilty of feeding those well, to some extent, it is. of diligence. now... you're not a politician... i'm not. certainly. well, i don't suggest that politicians are the only

this isn't new, this is something that goes back to ancient times. aroused controversy. by lot, for example. but i suppose what donald trump does, and he's not the only is they send a message to the public saying, we understand your needs, we will be for you, and we will not allow our determination to do what you need us to do to be mediated by these elites.

one, but populist politicians across the world do is they send a message to the public saying, and we will not allow our determination to do mm—hm. and so let's get to what you alluded to. there's no point in pretending that donald trump is a man of the people. of that elite. yes. he said, "he who saves the nation violates no law."

salus rei publicae suprema lex. and, uh... ..it remains to be seen how far he can get away with that. from anything, from criminal liability, for anything now, that's notjust a problem if the president decides to break the law, to commit criminal offences is through the criminal law. that's to say that if the president ignores for contempt of court, which are criminal proceedings. so what the supreme court has effectively done as a purely advisory body. is it's written itself out is it's written itself out of the picture, except of the picture, except as a purely advisory body.

that's the supreme court. what we see right now is at a lower level of the judiciary, the federal courts in different places in the united states, judges are ruling against some of the executive orders that donald trump has already... donald trump has already... on a provisional basis. on a provisional basis. except by way of impeachment. donald trump's response to that, and his acolyte, elon musk, has said it very elon musk, has said it very explicitly, again on social explicitly, again on social media, and this is to media, and this is to quote musk, not trump — quote musk, not trump — "if anyjudge anywhere "if anyjudge anywhere can stop a presidential can stop a presidential action "we do not live in a democracy." actually, to be absolutely actually, to be absolutely precise, he said, "if anyjudge anywhere can stop every presidential action "everywhere, we do not precise, he said, "if anyjudge live in a democracy." the message seems to be very grave threat.

well, they can't be removed that ifjudges continue

so proud of its founding fathers and their wisdom essentially, every constitution, however ..depends on certain cultural norms in order to work. democracy will not work.

on the issues that they care about than that the system should survive. that they get what they want. it, in the united states, perhaps, started surfacing about 30 or 35 years ago. yes. ..the institutions and the norms... and if the only test which you apply to... ..to any democratic process is "have i won?", then you're in serious trouble. the uk doesn't have a written constitution. no, it doesn't. governance issues. does that make the uk more or less vulnerable to this well, clearly the facts... about the use of power

in order to work. particularly strong nor particularly vulnerable. system operates quite differently. the entire public service is responsible to the president and not to congress. of the fact that he depends on congress to vote him the necessary funds for what he wants to do. but he is not answerable to congress in the same way a parliamentary system means that there are many more people a good illustration of that has occurred just the... the confidence of his own party and therefore he didn't have a majority to support his continuance in power. he was therefore out.

yes, and actually, borisjohnson... ..is interesting, notjust because in the end he lost the confidence of the party and he was out, but also unprecedented in recent times in the united kingdom. of his brexit strategy. yes. they reversed it, yes. and reversed the decision. mm. there were members of the conservative government that was anti—democratic. constitutional democracy? i think that there were two critical moments. of his prorogation decision. been if the supreme court

hadn't intervened in that way. a public power would have been exercised in a way that he was responsible to absolutely nobody, there wasn't going to be an election for another three years or so. as if it was to the status of a private power. the prime minister would have been able to do precisely what he likes. borisjohnson made an overt claim to presidential status, a claim which was vociferously supported by some tory politicians, including jacob rees—mogg in particular. what he said was — i got a mandate personally

..have any right to interfere. absolutely it does. now, he was shown to be wrong about that because the mps yes. because you chose to go and be ajudge there, hong kong, government and go and sit on the court of final appeal obviously controlled from beijing, which is very farfrom a democracy. but it wasn't the position in 2019 when i was... really? ..originally appointed. no. obviously... you hadn't seen the repression of street protests over many democracy in hong kong...

i mean, obviously people who engaged in violent if doing the same thing in the united kingdom. with the national security law, which came into force yes, i... absolutely, i did. yes. jonathan, is this the right place for me to be —

safeguards in article four, which have in fact been ignored over the period of time, for all the usual civil rights the... it was not obvious when the nsl came into... there were ways in which the judges could perfectly to the national security. no. obviously... you hadn't seen the repression of street protests over many i mean, obviously people who engaged in violent rioting were locked up, as they would have been if doing the same thing in the united kingdom. but the current assault on anybody who favours democracy, with the national security law, which came into force years before where anybody who was calling for democracy in hong kong... i mean, obviously people

who engaged in violent rioting were locked up, as they would have been on the 1st ofjuly 2020. yes, i... absolutely, i did. no, i understand that, but every single month, every single year... yes. jonathan, is this the right place for me to be — as a defender of democracy? should i really be sitting on this court, giving legitimacy to this system? which were part of the law of hong kong. the... ..came into force that it was going to be used in the way that it has been. to the national security. sure, but i'm just trying to get inside your head, and,

into the offices of apple daily. arrest, and as i understand it, the court of final appeal no. ..jimmy lai's appeal. jimmy lai is being tried at the moment. was the appeal which he... yes, exactly. yes, and the national security law contains provisions which restrict the granting of bail to people arrested under it. now, it seems to me, and it seems to others who are still sitting on the court, that there is something to be said for remaining in a system which doesn't want to lose western judges. well, you say something to be said for staying. i wonder if you now do deeply regret it? no, i don't.

well, i dare say. a fig leaf for authoritarianism. sir iain duncan smith, a former leader of the tory party, said it astonishes, "astonishes me that british by autocratic, "abusive laws coming from china." decide to resign in 2024, you said, "i remained "on the court for so long in the hope that the presence that's absolutely right and i... you got it all wrong, didn't you? in the end, you made a serious misjudgment. i stayed on the court for as long as it seemed to me independence from china. now, to me, the acid test was whether the judiciary were capable of standing up to china. what really changed my view

about that was the way you decided to resign? i mean, there has been a hope, you know, and it's vested ofjustice, that nations can come together and find a way on a sort of collegiate international basis. do you think, as you look at the world today, that that hope is dead in the water as well?

no, i don't. international arrangements. court ofjustice. with the domestic law of signatory states. which is a very political... absolutely. politicians argue about whether or not the united kingdom should continue to recognise the convention and stay inside the european court on human rights. yes. you're a very seniorjudge. ido not... that britain should leave it? clear on this for quite a while now. i mean, i originally felt that the court, i think we now need to have a regime of human form of adjudication.

law into which elected legislatures have absolutely no input. do you... international criminal court, the international court ofjustice. than its natural destination. for the human condition. and i was convinced of that at that time, too. but i think that the auguries are not at all good. democracy, but one or other form of autocracy. democracy has a very short history, whereas humanity

that's when universal manhood i mean, we didn't introduce equivalent suffrage for women historically, the default condition of mankind is not democracy has a very short history, whereas humanity about 150, 170 years. that's when universal manhood suffrage was introduced. maybe we won't truly appreciate it until we've lost it. jonathan sumption, lord sumption, we have to end there.

thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. hello. wednesday was a pretty active day, weather—wise. we had some fairly heavy showers, some thunderstorms, down for the next few days. but there'll be some chilly nights for the next few nights, with a risk of some frost and some mist and fog patches around, too. of the uk, parts of scotland.

the coast of norfolk, i think. the rest of the uk sees sunny spells, some cloud bubbling parts of northwest scotland, perhaps northern ireland, too. 9—11 celsius our top temperature — so still through into the final day of winter on friday morning. so, friday morning, then, we've got the light winds, it'll be a chilly start to the day, so temperatures colder than that in the more rural spots. so, some frost, some fog to get rid of, high pressure right across the uk on friday. that'll just start to burn away the mist and fog gradually so it'll brighten up through the day, 1—2 places friday afternoon. again, temperatures not great,

9—10 celsius for most of us — a band of cloud moving across the northern half here's the high pressure that sticks with us into the second second weather front tries to nudge its way windier sort of day across the northern isles. for most of us, a similar day again — dry and settled, morning mist and fog clearing away. sunny spells by the afternoon, top temperatures on sunday around 10—11 celsius.

live from washington, this is bbc news. hamas are released, as the first phase of the gaza ceasefire comes to a close. the occupied west bank. and here in the us, president donald trump says he'll meet with ukraine's president on mineral resources.

we begin with israel and hamas, who are moving forward with their final exchange of hostages and prisoners tonight as part of the first phase of the ceasefire deal. hostages to the red cross at the kerem shalom crossing. previous exchanges, which israel condemned. in exchange, israel is releasing more than 600 palestinians prisoners. these pictures here came through in the last hour showing people arriving in the occupied west bank after being released from the ofer prison. occupied east jerusalem. delayed the release

of palestinian prisoners