but further south, my goodness, look at that.

clash at the white house. mr zelensky said peace could only come when ukraine had a strong position for negotiations. mr zelensky is now in britain — where he is due to meet the prime minister. sir keir will hope to bridge this new rift between it will focus on european support for ukraine. pope francis is said to be resting after spending a peaceful night in hospital. the latest vatican statement came after what was described as a breathing crisis on friday — which saw doctors clearing vomit from his lungs and giving him an oxygen mask to help his breathing.

welcome to this week's edition of the media show. and this week we are spending the entire edition hearing from the journalist mehdi hasan, who's built a big profile in the us and elsewhere. in television at channel 4, the bbc, itv and elsewhere, too. in the us, he got his own show on msnbc, one of the major news networks there. and when that show finished, last year he created his own media company, zeteo. and in this edition we're going to hear all about the different i worked on thejonathan dimbleby programme, which ran for several years. you know, there was a tradition of long—form, set—piece sunday political interviews in the uk,

which we've kind but i was very lucky to work with jonathan dimbleby. what was called "the document", ros. and this came from the peter jay days, even pre—brian walden, where the guest says x, you say y. if the guest says y, you say zed, or zee, as we now say in my new homeland. i also saw you giving an interview when you were launching your new media business when you said, "i like to fight on social media," and that's a direct quote. is it? 0h. does all ofjournalism have to be framed in winning arguments and fighting? no, not at all. not all ofjournalism. journalism that does need to be combative and adversarial and, i think we've allowed politicians, especially where i am, ros, in the united states, to get away with softball that the media has been so soft on the people in power. there's a reason we're

having a populist moment, an anti—establishment moment.

helped me as a journalist, for sure. like, working at somewhere like channel 4 on a dispatches, the amount of editorial debate and discussion and rigour that goes into making a show like that, the amount of legal advice that you take, the amount of thought you put into getting things right and fact—checking, i think that helped me as a journalist to grow, because i am a very opinionated person. but the type of... but hold on. the type of television journalist that you became in the �*00s, in the 2010s and then into the 2020s wouldn't really be possible in the uk, would it? not under... i don't agree with that. so i do a show for al jazeera english right now called head to head, which we film in the uk. it airs on aljazeera english in the uk. it used to be filmed at the oxford union. we now film it at conway hall in london. and actually, no, we still have the same journalistic rigour. i don't accept this false binary that if you're an opinion journalist you can't also do fairand balanced journalism. so, no, i value very much facts and fairness. what i don't do, ros, is i don't accept that fairness means that you take two points of view or two positions

and you just carve out a middle and you say, "well, i'm equidistant from left and right. "i'm equidistant from conservatives and labour. republicans and democrats. "therefore i'm doing it right." i don't accept that. and, of course, there's a vigorous discussion around both sides and both sides�* types of coverage, both in the uk and... i'm very anti—bothsidesism. but i'm not anti—fairness. but i'm going to come back to my point, which is that news, you wouldn't be able to do the types of monologues agreed. so in some ways, the american broadcast news environment i agree. so i'll take two things on that. you know, network news, nightly news, lester holt monologues, who go out of their way to say, "we're

my slight issue with that is, of course, whether you're a bbc anchor or an abc news anchor, everyone has their biases. that people are not coming with their own biases.

"to give you the news straight, and then we give you liberal "opinion on our editorial pages." even there, of course, that news is filtered through someone�*s biases, choices, world experiences. we see that with israel, for example, and the coverage of israel, where the biases are very clear. we see that on a whole range of issues, i would say, on the economy, for example. so, i think it's good to aspire towards it. but i also think there's an important role for opinion journalism, of course, as there is in the uk. and you are very much

making the case for it. i'm interested in the route that you've taken to the profile you have in the us. you mentioned columns in the guardian, the new york times, so really established legacy media brands. you've mentioned becoming a regularface on broadcast news, essential in the us. well, if not essential then very helpful to building profile. but a third dimension would be your digital footprint, which through the 2010s got bigger and bigger. and you are very well—known for tweeting strong opinions. sometimes you'll get in the middle of a pile—on they approve of it. how has that changed how you approach your work, yeah. it's a great question, ros, and it's really an existential question right now, given the us media landscape, where you have social media companies repressing and suppressing certain content, you have big for donald trump.

and so when you wake up in the morning, though, do you feel a pressure, an expectation that you are going to open up social media? it would have been twitter almost all the time. we've obviously all diversified in recent years. yes. trying to. but do you feel a pressure to come up with that take, to come up with something that's going to get people's fires burning, because without it, the new business whose, you know, branding i can see behind you in the new studio that you've got, that new business relies on you doing that. chris hayes, my former colleague at msnbc, has a great new book out about the attention economy. i think there's a very important phrase about the attention economy. we do live in an environment where people are trying to break through all of the noise, get attention, get noticed, make noise. it's a pressure on all of us. it's a pressure as much

on you at the bbc as it is on me at zeteo, right? everyone is feeling this. it's a very crowded space, a lot of loud voices. the democratisation of the media means there's a lot of people, some of whom shouldn't be listened to and some, you know, the bbc still trying to maintain relevance and say, "look, we're more reliable "and factual than the rest, we're more trusted." there's no point me setting up a media company, getting great, out there and no—one reads or sees it. those of you listening, we interviewed chris hayes that on bbc sounds. ..do you feel addicted to the hit of going viral? he chuckles this is a debate. this is a discussion i have with friends, with family. time on social media. i'm actually in the middle of re—evaluating all of my social media. i don't know if you know, but last week i got

of the united states... yes, i saw. he called me a dummy. what a lovely word. and then i had a bit of a pile—on where i'd made suggesting i'm a terrorist. you know, the dopamine hit of going viral, twitter in particular has become a place filled conspiracy theorists. it's not what it was. but i just want to dig into this a bit, though. planes crash again." and when you deleted it...

to land a punch, to go viral, in those moments risks i think when you post... no. no? no, no. with my wife right now. no, i don't. staff's social media posts. of pressure on to kind of... so, look, i get it. sometimes tweets can go wrong. i mean, in that context, i would point out that many people have been making sarcastic comments, jokes, digs i would point out that i'm the muslim guy who did it. "0h, he's a terrorist who's 9/11, wants to crash planes."

that, as did others on the right. that i will always feel, is that i won't be able to say i regret making it because it was in poor taste. thatjoke, the reaction would have been very different. we've mentioned msnbc, a very well—known network, very well, where you had a show for a number of years. that show was cancelled a few months after october seventh you would have to ask msnbc, ros. well, they haven't commented, but i'm asking you. it's not something i agree with. i was happy that we were able to negotiate an exit for me and when i said, "look," they said, "stay on,

not really for me." it's 2024. it's the biggest year of our lives news—wise. so i wanted to go my own way and do my own thing, so i'm just glad that i was able to do that. i enjoyed my three and a half years at msnbc. shoots more directly than that, mehdi. very diplomatic. i'm just surprised that on this particular issue suspect is the case. that the israel—gaza war and your opinions on it aren't i'll be very honest. to look forward, not back. i don't know whether it's the full answer, but i suspect and is it fair to say that this is a business model

is that to oversimplify, or in its initial conception, so, it's a business model that rests on subscriptions, not necessarily substack. we happen to be on substack because it's the platform not necessarily. we'll see. but the technology that now allows people to go with subscribers, is fantastic for those of us who want to build up independent journalism, non—corporate media. i don't have to worry about advertising, i don't have and podcasts, and it's fantastic.

this business, and then the first video you posted and it showed you... a year ago this week, ros.

and help me understand, let's assume all of those different types of content that you're going for are all being relatively equally successful. which ones pay you back the most? does tiktok pay the bills? does newsletter pay the bills? no. 0ur subscribers pay the bill. does youtube pay the bills? the subscribers? so, just to explain to your viewers, substack is an email newsletter platform traditionally. they're trying to expand into other spaces like video. if you go on the app, you can do more live video like instagram. but fundamentally, at the core of it is still an email newsletter. so our emails that go out to our 400,000 subscribers, tens of thousands of whom are paid, that's what pays the bills. people going from free to paid, signing up to get past the paywalls to read. and, therefore, to answer your question, the stuff

that does well, it's not about whether it's a video or a podcast or an article, it's how authentic, how distinctive it is. because, as i said earlier, we're in a very crowded market space. am i being lazy if i was to say, and all of those perspectives which you're gathering are coming from the left of the political spectrum? oh, yeah. are you happy...? they're from the left. yeah. we're not hiding that. they're from the left. and why are you deciding that those are the perspectives, not just that you want to major on, that you are solely platforming? three reasons. number one, i'm on the left, so i'm going to push what i believe in, very simply. number two, these are voices that have been marginalised and they are big names whojust don't get... look at greta. capitalism, suddenly she wasn't welcome in all of the

pressure or corporate pressure or lazy political consensuses. so, yes, i do believe people are signing up cos they support the mission and they believe in what zeteo is trying to do or what i'm trying to do, rather than just trying to get another news source. the criticism that you had of some news organisations around the language they're using, with reference to some politicians, and also with what's happening in gaza. as you'll be aware, israel has repeatedly rejected any

accusation of genocide. in a kind of fair way, you'd have half the media organisation saying it's genocide, half not, or a quarter? none of them will say genocide,

which tells me there's a censorship of the word. and as you well know, i'm here as a bbcjournalist, not a bbc spokesperson. but coming back to my original point, you listed a number of people who would argue that what's happening in gaza is genocide. but you are well aware there is a difference between reporting that those organisations or individuals view it that way and calling it that way yourself as a news organisation. those are two different things. i understand that, yes. they are two different things. but it's interesting that the way in which mainstream media organisations go out of their way to not even report on the number of people saying it's genocide. how much coverage did the amnesty international report saying genocide get? if they'd said it about ukraine, it would have got more coverage. it's the double standards, ros, that people cannot stand any more. that's why they're coming to places like zeteo, because we're honest about our opinions. the bbc says it's neutral, but in its coverage of ukraine versus gaza, it clearly isn't neutral. ijust wonder, one last question for you, mehdi, you are, by most definitions, hugely successful. when you were setting out in yourjournalism career, surely the point that you have reached in terms of your

profile, both in the uk and the us would, at least i hope, meet your expectations, maybe exceed your expectations. what advice would you give to a 20—year—old now thinking about stepping into the arena when you know how abrasive it is, where you know how competitive it is for attention, where you know how contentious even basic facts can be? yeah. what advice would you give? it's a great question. it's one i've thought long and hard about, i wonder what i would say to myself if i was setting out on a journalistic career now. i certainly didn't imagine myself here in the us having the vice president of the united states come after me for a take on social media. i would say three things. number one, if you're trying to become a journalist now, do it for the right reasons, because you believe in the cause, you believe in the mission, you actually want to make a difference to the world. whether you're behind the camera, in front of the camera, whether you're writing a piece or editing a piece. number two, get some skills. i graduated in 2000, ros, when you could just be a jack of all trades, master of none. i don't have any skills. even today, i couldn't

edit a package if my life depended on it. but i think these days young people do really need to have certain basic skills, especially technological skills, given the way that journalism is done online. and then number three, i would say work on that none of us are born with thick skins. especially at a time when bad faith actors have taken over public squares in multiple countries, including and have the thickest of thick skins. and previously, the bbc has commented on its coverage of the israel—gaza war. it says, "careful consideration is being given to all aspects "accurately and with due impartiality, "in line "publicly available. "

into the afternoon, the sun will be out. now, we're a little bit closer to weather fronts in the far northwest of scotland here. so more of a breeze, and that's going to be the trend into next week. the high pressure will be in charge of the weather a little bit further south. in the far north of the uk, we'll be brushed by weather systems, and you can see it from this weather map on monday — the high in the south across the english channel into