>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> as president obama put in his letter, the world is looking to the u.s. and china to work together to solve pressing

challenges. there is great potential for cultural and scientific exchanges to help us solve problems that would benefit all. >> china is one of the most important countries in the world. its relationship with the u.s. is one of the most important relationships in the world. that relationship continues to grow in size and complexity. with me is my guest. he became the ambassador to the u.s. he also served as china's ambassador to japan, i'm very pleased to have him here at this table for the first time in running opal the number of visits to talk about this important relationship. welcome. >> thank you. >> characterize the relationship today between china and the u.s.

>> in the last several years since establishing diplomatic relations, our two countries have gone through many changes. not just in the world but in our own countries. fortunately, we have been able to identify growing common interest and manage what differences we may have. that enables us to develop this relationship. i think now it is more comprehensive and stronger and on a solid basis. >> talk about the promise of the relationship and how it can grow and be construct and for both countries. >> there has been discussion in both countries about the future of this relationship. there is a growing consensus

that we have to aim at a new model of relationship that will be free of conflicts or confrontation. the focus is on cooperation, mutual understanding, it will confidence, and mutual respect. >> you were educated in the u.s. >> right. >> more people who are adults and middle-aged were educated in the u.s. that is a generation of chinese leadership. are they different because they understand more about the u.s. because they have lived here or were educated here or both? >> we certainly have a younger generation who come here for universities or high schools. for my generation, we spent our adolescent years in the cultural revolution. we spent a lot of time in the poor, remote, rural areas.

we have seen the realities of our country and what needs to be done. and what are the challenges that we face. this is the case for our leadership, i think. actually, i think the president is an outstanding leader. this generation has the determination and the vision to build china into a modern country. >> clearly the promise is that two great countries, two large countries with two huge economies, have an opportunity to exercise power, whether in terms of economic relationships, whether it is about political hotspots like syria or iran, is that growing at all?

this opportunity for china and the u.s. and europe and russia to work together on solving these big problems that are unsolvable unless there's more participation in a solution? >> there are so many global challenges. some are traditional, some are not so traditional. we also have a lot of hotspot issues. all of these things. it is quite obvious that the permanent members of the united nations security council and others and so on what have to work together. we have to make a joint effort

in responding to these problems. >> what great powers have sometimes is misunderstanding each other. is that a risk? >> there is always such a risk. what the advancement of technology and the media, we have a better chance of mutual understanding. >> give me an example of what is high on the agenda between president obama and the chinese president. is the idea of cyber espionage the possibility of cyber warfare? in the united states, there's basically this attitude, it seems to me, you do it as much as we do it.

how do you see this looming question of cyber espionage? >> first of all, cyber security is a new issue for both of our countries. compared with other more traditional challenges, this one is not that visible. it is everywhere. there are still no complete set of international rules governing the behavior in a space. -- cyberspace. that is where we have to concentrate efforts. we have to develop a whole set of international rules governing the behavior of everybody and not just the state actors, but individuals and so on. that is my first point. number two, the u.s. is the most advanced country in technology.

normally, it is the weaker party that should be worried about the stronger party and not the other way around. china is still very much lagging behind. the technology originates from the u.s.. >> clearly. the u.s. technology has been used extensively in china. china's technological base is growing and prospering. that kind of thing is clear. some say that there will be different attitudes about privacy and other questions as these companies grow. >> they will debate this issue in many countries across the

world. >> one charge against your country is that there are government or aspects of the government carrying out cyber espionage against the private sector in the united states and the u.s. says it does not do that. >> whether the u.s. is doing that or not is up to the u.s. government to reply. for china, if they do have evidence or complaints, if it comes to our law enforcement agencies, we handle these cases. so far, we have gotten very few input from them. >> talk about china's economic future. clearly, it will have the largest economy in the world.

some people say 1225 or 1230. you have 10 cities that have a population of more than one million people. it is a growing population and a country of growing economic progress. do you worry that is slowing down? that you will not see 10% annual growth in your gdp? it is down to seven percent or eight percent? what happens if they go lower? >> we do need relatively high growth rate in order to sustain economic development to provide a sufficient number of jobs for the people and to improve the well-being of the people. you need all of this growth. we are not aiming at double digit growth anymore. >> you know that is a thing of

the past? >> it is no longer sustainable. we are restructuring our economy to achieve a more sustainable and balanced and environmentally friendly growth. >> on the issue of the environment, many people when they go to olympics and come back, they talked about pollution. your government clearly recognizes it is an issue. how would you deal with it? >> it is a big issue. everyone is complaining about it. we are also told that many have gone through this development in their own. we are trying to avoid the mistakes other countries have made. this is not easy. we are facing this challenge in a direct way.

we are determined to improve the environment significantly so that people will have a better environment and economy will be on a more sustainable basis. we can no longer rely on economic growth with the resources. we have low energy efficiency. it would damage our environment here. >> and your rivers with respect to life inside, are said to be close to death. >> we are treating many of them. we are seeing growth in some of them. you look at the river there. it is much cleaner than a decade ago. >> what does xi jinping bring in terms of the vision for china? >> continuity. >> with the government of hu

jintao? >> reform in china did not start today. it started 35 years ago. reform started 35 years ago and we have been proceeding with reform all along in the last 35 years. for the new leadership, there is determination that we have to. we have to carry out sweeping reform. >> it raises the question of journalism and free expression. "the new york times" and bloomberg and others have reported activities of china's most prominent families. they say that the access and

visas were restricted and they were not allowed to report. why is that and what is the status of it today? >> many of the media agencies, including the "new york times" and bloomberg, they are ready have a large presence in china. they are reporting development in china. my hope and not just in my capacity as chinese ambassador, but my capacity as longtime reader of "the new york times," abide by the laws and the rules. >> is it against the law to report on prominent families in china?

>> i think you have to abide by laws and rules in any country when you are present there. it is not just for the reporters, but for everybody, even for chinese reporters. they also have to abide by the law. chinese reporters working here in the u.s., they have to abide by u.s. laws. this is quite clear. number two, they have to base themselves on facts. sometimes the first paragraphs of stories -- as far as i know, some of the stories are not so much based on facts. >> wouldn't it be more constructive to simply respond to the mis-statements that you believe were there rather than trying to close down the activities of those journalistic efforts? >> we're not closing down the activity in china.

we have extended reporters' visas. >> in the case of "the new york times?" >> yeah. new applications have to be handled according to the rules and the laws according to due process. >> and the status of bloomberg? >> it is still operating in china. >> talk about the pacific region that you inhabit. there have been flashpoints there. how does china see its responsibility and its leadership within the region of its own presence in the pacific? >> we do not see ourselves as a leader in the region. rather we see ourselves as one of the important parts in the region. we know that regional stability will require the efforts of everybody to work with neighbors for regional prosperity. it requires the efforts of everyone.

>> japan, obviously you have serious problems with the prime minister of japan going to a kind of homage to a site there. in a sense, you considered it an affront to china. how would you characterize that? >> i think the prime minister of japan -- he has challenge the outcome of the second world war. he went. they have 14 war criminals there. these criminals were tried and

committed at the international war tribunal. they are the people responsible for all of the war atrocities during the second world war. like chemical warfare, bacterial warfare, forcing women of other countries to be sex slaves, and mass killings of innocent civilians. by visiting the shrine, i think the prime minister is making a statement here. >> what is that political statement? >> he is denying that there were such a war atrocities. he is saying that no one should be responsible for this. i think that this is a real challenge, not only to the post war international order, but also to the international conscience. this is their outlook on history. his rightwing tendency and the steps he had taken and would like to take with regard to security to the japanese military and so on. the combination of this is a recipe for trouble. >> how should the conflict over the islands be settled?

>> we believe such disputes should be handled through negotiations. >> between? >> between the countries in a dispute. if it is between china and japan, they should have a negotiation on this. the current japanese government, they do not even admit that there is such a dispute. that is a problem. >> here is what they claim. they argued that china did not even make dramatic claims until they discover that there were mineral resources on those islands. >> if we look at historical records, this has been our position that these islands are part of chinese territory. it has been our position for many years, many decades. >> the u.s. at that time flew b- 2 bombers, i think they were,

but not with weapons on them. did you accept that as a responsible thing for the u.s. to do? violating a zone that you had created? >> this is another issue. you're talking about identification zone. china was not the first country. there are dozens of countries who have defense zones, including the u.s. and japan. japan set up its own zone as early as 1969. the closest point to shanghai, the biggest city of china, is only 130 kilometers. >> when i go to china and talk to people, there are some who speak to me and think that the u.s. wants to contain china. is that an opinion represented

by the government of china or is that simply isolated sectors of the chinese body politic? >> as far as official statements from the u.s. government are concerned, they never say this is the official position or official policy of the u.s. in reality, i do not think the u.s. would be able to do that. >> does your government believe that u.s. has that intention to contain, even if it could not achieve it? >> i would choose to believe the official statement by the u.s. government. >> that it has no -- >> they have to make continued efforts to prove it. >> there is a film that got on the internet that the u.s. had that kind of position and created controversy. >> china is a very open and

diversified society with all schools of thought. i think it would be useful and helpful if people could express their views whether you are for them or not, agree with them or not. >> has barack obama -- had i think 12 meetings with hu jintao when he was president. they had some kind of relationship. now you have a new president. xi jinping. the hope to see the same level of communication or even better between president obama and president xi jinping? >> you see high levels of contact in the communication.

it is always crucial for the development of the relationship. we very much want to see contact between the leaders of the country. >> one area that i think u.s. would welcome chinese help is the issue in north korea. how do you see what is going on in the country today and the dramatic views of the executions of the uncle of the president of the north korean leader? >> we see no sufficient clarity about the domestic situation. for china, this is an important issue. our national security interests are at stake. korea is one of our neighbors. we have to make sure that there is no nuclear weapons. we have to make sure that stability and peace would be maintained.

we are doing our best to facilitate negotiations to address these major concerns. >> do you think they are listening to you? >> we are doing our best. it is up to others on whether they will listen to us or not. we are communicating with each other on this issue. i think this is a very good area of cooperation. >> look at the rest of the world and tell me where you think they can cooperate with china and the u.s. in a way that would be constructive for the world. >> in terms of -- >> early opportunities of cooperation. >> in terms of political stability, maybe afghanistan would be a good example. both of us want to maintain stability there and want to help the country to reconstruct.

afghanistan is also one of our neighbors. this is an area in which we can work with each other. there are so many things we can do together. >> here is a conventional wisdom i hear frequently. china's primary interest is to grow, stabilize, reduced tensions internally. there is a huge, ongoing effort to turn it into a domestic domestic demand economy. it is not easy to do that. you are basically saying to the world, this is our primary focus. give us time to do that. we have to get it right. >> our responsibility is to make our country stable, prosperous, and unified. if we can do that, 1/5 of the global population would be living in a better world.

that would be the biggest contribution we can make to the world. >> you have also been very savvy with respect to understanding china's needs and around the world looking out to secure contracts that would ensure a steady supply of natural resources for china. yes? >> you just said -- >> latin america. >> you just said that we have a 1.3 billion people in china. they have legitimate aspirations

for better lives. in order to do that, we need resources. we need energy. we need a lot of other things. we are also part of the international market. >> then there is this in every conversation about china. more people are coming out of poverty and into the middle class in china in the history of civilization. it is a fact of life because of the size of the population and because of how the economy has grown for more than 30 years. a remarkable achievement. it is a development of capitalism, but also a respect for markets. correct? >> the focus on giving the market the decisive role in allocation of resources -- this

market orientation of reform is clear. >> doesn't also mean that there will be less favoritism to state owned corporations? >> i do not think there has been any favoritism to state owned enterprises so far. we'll certainly address the issue of relations between the government and the markets. >> and the private sector as well. >> yes. there would be what we call a level playing field. >> and the question arises of political change and political reform. some argue that it is the ultimate fear of the leadership in china that there'll be some destabilization that would threaten the power of the party. >> i do not agree with that view. i think we have carried out a comprehensive reform in china both in economic and in the

political spears. it would be impossible to imagine that all of this economic achievement would be achieved without any change in the political system. >> defined that change in the political system. >> the start of reform in china 35 years ago. a major decision was taken by the party. there was a focus that it should be shifted to economic development rather than political campaign. how can you say this is an economic decision? it is certainly a political decision. a recent decision by the committee for future reforms is

a comprehensive one. we are having reform in all of the areas and not just the economy. we're focus on greater social justice. we're focused on the improvement of people's well-being. >> human rights. >> of course including human rights. it is in our constitution. it is very comprehensive. it is all around. we have to move forward on all of the fronts. >> there is this fear of instability that might threaten the power of a party. the leadership of the country is provided by the party.

>> if there is instability in china, it is a national interest that would maintain stability while carrying out all of the necessary reform. >> where does the country worry about creating instability? >> many incidents could lead to instability. if it would allow social injustice to grow too much, it could cause instability. that is why we are putting so much emphasis on greater social justice. >> what does social justice mean? >> people who have a better rule of law and equal access to opportunity. many things.

>> there are two interesting things about china. anybody that you talk to that is proud to be chinese will ask us to respect the long tradition of china in its history as they rightly should. at the same time, they will say to me as a reporter that he expect us to move too fast. we have a change that has just begun in a significant way in the last 30 years. it took you a longer time in the dominant institutions of respect for the rights of the individual does this resonate with you? >> it is always a challenge to keep a proper balance between the tradition and the need to modernize.

china is a huge country with such a huge population. it is like a big ship in the sea. you cannot make a sudden turn. you cannot change course all of a sudden. you have to make sure that you are moving forward steadily. >> when you were in the country during the cultural revolution, did you ever imagine that you would be your country's ambassador to the u.s.? >> no. it is really amazing. i think this is a small example of how the world has changed, how our country has changed.

i told dr. henry kissinger when he made his visit to china, i was working on a collective farm. i never imagine someday i would come here. >> and graduate and attend johns hopkins school. of international studies. >> thank you very much. all of this has made -- been made possible by the reform we have had. that is why we are all supportive of the reform. >> before i close, i want you to say how you would like to see america change. when you talk of reform, what do you talk about? >> it is a process of modernizing an ancient civilization. >> what does confucius have to do with all of this?

>> he was a wise man, of course. people know his teachings and try to get some inspirations in dealing with the new challenges. >> how does he inform that in his teachings? >> i think you see people like confucius. they study a lot of philosophical issues and the relation of human beings with nature and so on. there are fundamental challenges. we could get some inspiration and wisdom from our ancestors. >> what is the hardest thing about change for china? >> you have to make sure that changes will not lead to instability. you have to make sure that the

people -- if not all of them, put overwhelming majority of them will benefit from the changes. >> finally, for the u.s., what is it that you would like to see change about the u.s.? how would you like to see the u.s. evolve? >> the u.s. is clearly the most powerful country in the world. the biggest, developed country in the world. i didn't think anyone can really catch up in the foreseeable future. i hope the u.s. will have a better understanding of china's history, culture, past, present, and maybe future. i hope the u.s. will not the so much worried about possible challenger a threat from china.

we have no intention. the so-called rise of china, we have risen from our own past, is not to prevail over anyone else, and certainly not over the u.s. >> thank you for coming. pleasure to have you on the program. >> thank you for the conversation. >> ambassador ciu tiankai, ambassador to the u.s. >> stay with us. ♪ >> i do not care about the surface. what i really care about is that in the infinite. they will tell us children, every minute is the minute to begin it. >> kate tempest is here. she is a british poet. she recently identified herself as a rapper. she has performed in a show that is about violence and the trail.

it is set in south london. charles isherwood writes in the new york times as tempest, gorgeous words flow out it is so vivid. the contrary story so vivid it's as if you had a state of the art blue ray player stuck into your brain, projecting image after image that sears itself into your consciousness. how do you like that? [laughter] that is what you said. that is what he said. you can catch her show in brooklyn through january 19. here is a look at the opening sequence. >> in the old days, the myths with the stories we use to explain ourselves. how can we explain the way we hate ourselves? the things we have made ourselves into? -- the way we break ourselves in

two the way we overcomplicate ourselves. we are still mystical. we are still permanently trapped somewhere between the heroic and the pitiful. that is what has made is so monstrous. it feels like we have forgotten that we are much more than the sum of all of these things. the empty skies rise over the benches where the old men sit in their desolate and friendless. the young man spits and inside outside they are reckless. these are our lessons. >> so many questions. i'm pleased to have you here. >> i'm pleased to be here. >> tell me what i am seeing in that clip. >> it is the premise of the show. it opens up the themes that we will talk about only get into the narrative. >> tell me how you created it. you were once a rapper.

>> yeah. >> do you prefer rapper to poet? >> it is a huge word. i was talking to a poet i know. other people can call you poet, but if you call yourself that -- [laughter] it is hard to identify as any one thing. i'm trying to do anything and everything. sometimes it comes out one form and sometimes in another. >> tell me about your evolution as an artist. >> i first came to writing my own stuff when i was writing rhymes. i was writing rhyme schemes. you learned in your ear. it was something very exciting and urgent.

i went through years of writing raps. that was before i ever thought about poems. i had this vital of experience with language at first. as i became older, it became more -- serene. >> when you created the characters were they simply coming from your own imagination or do to have someone in mind? >> i think that when you are a writer, all carried her begins in some truth from somewhere. after bp plea have known or loved or otherwise they will not stand up when you need them to. i could see that what i was

doing was writing the easy version-- you want the character to have contradictions and not be all of the expected ringside characters are. -- expected things that characters are. you let them breathe without you telling them to. >> talk about the characters. talk about kevin. a guy who knows well how to settle for less. >> yeah. [laughter] he is the kind of guy who puts up with life and doesn't expect life to give him anything other than what it has given him. he knows to make these with what he has. he is hard-working and he loves his wife even though he is aware she has been unfaithful to him. he is kind of the man who has resigned to coping. i think there is a lot of strength in that kind of man.

often the dreary character, but i think there is a lot of real current and living off of that. courage in life like that. >> and jane, his wife? >> she has fallen in love with somebody who is not her husband. she has found herself in life where it is not all of the things she thought it might the. she has fallen into this affair with her neighbor who is a kind of brute and she thinks is great for whatever reason. she find herself trapped in a climate of guilt where she has acted badly and now she has a child to raise that reminds her of this guilt. >> and brian is married to mary. >> he drinks too much and he has got a job that he doesn't love and he is not a great father to his son. he is angry and he resorts to violence and he is in loveless marriage. >> and kevin comes to realize

that the child of brian and jane is not his. and secondly, has to live with it. tommy becomes a character. >> yes. he is the sign. i suppose what i was trying to do is having all of these characters present is to give the kind of feeling that you get when you're from a neighborhood or a place and you know everything about somebody's family. these stories about the affair and infidelity lead you into the story of something in his life. >> and clive? >> clive is brian's son with mary. the half-brother. they go up close, but not knowing who the other one is.

>> and his first friend is spider because he is involved in a fire in a ends up with a scar on his face. >> what do you intend for the play? >> i wanted to write it because it was an idea i was working on. it became a show to show what it can do for audiences. it had nothing to do with me. >> it has everything to do with their lives. >> yeah. that is important for artists to let go of it. >> perform something for me if you will. tell us what we will experience. >> i will do the kind of introduction that we just talked about. let's focus. it's dusk on a weeknight. the kids fight. lights. slow at the

the young men whistle at the girls. this street, this road, this house. here. kevin slowly moves about. he put his plate on the table. he is about to eat. he eyes the empty chair. where is she? she is not there. kevin checks his watch and shrugs his shoulders. eggsoks back down at his soldiers. the photo on the mantelpiece shows them both, romantic beach excursion from the hazy past. he is smiling gently. my wife and i, he sighs. feels empty. and here we have them. this kevin and jane. jane is bored now and ready for change. kevin don't see it. don't mention your pain. let's meet their neighbors. this is mary and brian. he is sick of his life and stick of his wife. they haven't been happy in

years. now jane, never knew she had a body like the forest in the rain. but she felt all that change when she heard brian say her name. and now shame is ripping through her belly and her brain. living her in pieces with the stickers to contain. lust, heavy in her hands and gut. now her blood gets hot at the thought of his touch. just one night, this can't be love. she is such a fool. she hates the thing she does. she cannot sit still. the panic, thrill, chill. cab.s lipstick in the she is smiling. tonight we are not wives or husbands. tonight just us, just this, just crush me, finish me tonight and love me. poor kevin.

see him dignified and resolute, head down. a monument to the cavalry of men. see him, i strained from staying too long at her empty chair while she gets herself away and he knows it and he feels it, but can't say. >> brilliant. really is. >> tell me about learning the performance of it all. it has to do with the command of language and the pacing and inflections. it has to do with the passion in the words. >> i have come from a school of rap and rhyming instead of poems. -- and telling poems where you just know it. you commit it to memory so you can go and do it anywhere with people. if i want to tell you a poem, i wanted to occur spontaneously. if you commit it to memory so well, you didn't even have to

reach for the words. you can just say it. you are in a much more valuable position. i have seen and read about some of the older poets who have committed it to memory. i think it is a more exciting thing to do. you're kind of always on the edge of it. any minute, it could disappear. the same terms of trying to learn it, i just repeated it often. >> is there a technique for you to commit to memory so that you own it? >> you just have to get behind the intention of each line and remember that it leads to somewhere and that once you get on board with it, you have the responsibility and obligation to go the right way. it is a question of knowing where it will be likely to go.

you know what has got to happen and how to say it. also just learning lines. >> is it difficult? >> i have never memorized something this long. 70 minutes. >> 17? >> 70. >> it is the longest piece i have ever wrote. >> did it take six months? >> i do not know good the minute you begin writing, you begin memorizing. i have the strange relationship with it. i worry if i will not be able to do it. >> tell me about your dad and

what he taught you. and expense from going from labor to a man who is a criminal lawyer? >> he is a very poetic man. he plays music and paints. and paints. i'm the youngest of five children. my dad went to night school when i was two or three. he got his law degree. he has his own firm where my brother works. he taught me a lot about hard work. about providing. also about never losing the sight of the magic in things. my dad right now i'm a he blows glass.

he writes crazy poetic text messages. he is a great guide. guy. hard-working and creative. that is who he is. it is the example he has left for the children. >> thank you for coming. >> thank you for having me. >> see kate tempest. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

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