>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose."

>> the winter olympics in sochi ended on sunday but the conversation about russia continues. on wednesday, president vladimir putin the troops on high alert. tensions have increased after the ouster of president yanukovych. secretary of state john kerry says that russia must be careful. the new yorker editor david remnick has just returned from sochi. his article this week is called patriot games, vladimir putin lives his olympic dreams. i'm pleased to have my friend david remnick back at the table. here you are, not an editor. >> as they say in tv, who know? you never called me talented. >> it was a different experience for you. you are there for nbc commenting.

>> i did a few things with bob costas before his eye. poor guy. he played hurt as long as he could. >> the captain limped out. >> like el cid. most olympic games are the olympic games and they are exciting for the athletic things and you get to focus on a different city but this was destined from the start to be half olympic games and half political event. >> let's talk about the political event. this was seen as vladimir putin as what? >> the reassertion of russian confidence and power on the world stage. the soviet union collapsed in 1991 and with it collapsed not only on economy but a kind of national self-confidence, and empire like the ottoman empire,

austro-hungarian empire. the fallout was like a terrible time lapse photography over a generation. democracy, certain things happening that works jointly encouraging, but a lot of things happened that were awful. one thing that happened was the process of demoralization about the inability to build institutions, democratic institutions. putin sees himself as a man of an iron fist and development. that's the way he seems himself. >> he sees himself as the man in charge of a strong state. >> he is a state builder. to have this opportunity at the cost of $51 billion to essentially build a city --

sochi was a very old, modest city. so much, bridges, roads, ski jumps, and it cost $51 billion that we know of. how much of it was bribery, we may never know. $51 billion is more than all the other winter olympics combined. >> the point was he wanted to show the world that russia is back, that russia is a player. >> it is modern, developing, and all he got going in was that you are having not only legitimate and serious concerns, the fact that sochi is right there smack in the middle of a region that has been called a war zone but certainly a conflict. it is coming in the middle of the extremely legitimate protest

against a disgusting anti-gay propaganda law. it is coming at a time when u.s. russian relations and relations with russia and the west are certainly not at their zenith and the ukraine was starting to happen in a very serious way and it played out over the course of two or three weeks. you also had kind of cheap cold war-esque sniping. never put journalists in bad nonfunctioning hotel rooms when they have nothing to write about yet. [laughter] with twitter in action. brown water, stray dogs. i thought some of this was really a bit much. far be it from me to sympathize with vladimir putin but that was a bit much.

>> was it successful? in terms of what he wanted to achieve? >> in large measure, yes. there was no terrorist attack. he made sure of that. not only was there the ring of steel around the olympic area but you could be very sure that the really hot areas, pressure from other concerned apparatus were in high demand. >> more likely the defense minister. >> i thought in the closing ceremonies there was even the flash of russian with that i love, see them making fun of themselves with the system ring not opening. that was a kind of showbiz moment of irony that was nice. >> they told the story. there was a narrative in the

opening ceremony. >> that was part of my job, sitting in between matt lauer and meredith vieira. some people thought i was debbie downer. here comes the marching persians of 1937. there was an attempt, however much cirque du soleil, macy's day thanksgiving parade in terms to show the best face forward even historically. it has been for centuries a legacy of rivers, blood, oppression, but part of his conservatism and building of the state is to reassert a different history, a glorious history. >> and the wonderful future. >> and to toboggan right past

the unpleasantness because he feels we have heard that in the west has been dancing in the end zone about its victory in the cold war and the turmoil of russian history. >> it was the latest geostrategic tragedy of the century. >> what are we experiencing in the ukraine? >> this is another chapter in something that began in 1989-1991. the empire dissolves and that the solutions includes the most essential dissolution of all which is the relationship between russia and the ukraine. russian history begins in kiev, not moscow. >> why is that? >> long story, but they began in

kiev and religion has its roots in kiev as well. certainly, vladimir putin was a state builder and someone who wants to reassert to some extent what he calls a eurasian union. >> of the eurasian union. >> belarus, central asia. at the core of that is russia-ukraine. yet within the ukraine, you have, until some days ago, yanukovych was loyal to moscow. you have the eastern part of the ukraine that speaks russian predominantly and leads towards moscow. there are all kinds of divisions here. what i would say is that yanukovych was awful. on the other hand, he was democratically elected.

he was overthrown in the streets. he murdered dozens of his own people -- >> during the protests. >> absolutely. he was corrupt as corrupt could be. we are at a very familiar moment we have experienced over and over again, that excitement. it's that moment -- >> we think history is happening here. >> democratic institutions and the norms will take hold. the illusion of tahrir square. one wonders why the great authoritarians don't realize that a square is a bad thing to have in a city capital. tienenmen square, red square, wenceslaus square. social media calls you to the square and it does not form political institutions and we are in that excitement where the

people rush to the mansion and see the golden toilets and the fixtures and all of the documents come spilling out. you see the depths of people's despair and the corruption. it is the journalistic cliché goes. >> what should we fear? what is in putin's mind now? he is basically saying, i cannot let this end? >> the question is what he tries to do to keep ukraine's low oil tea through money. >> cheap gas, cheap energy. >> even though they were having nice dances with the european union. >> that drama is far from over. this very morning, russia decided, not by coincidence, to have some military exercises not far from the border of ukraine. >> saying, we are here.

>> take note. we may be back in two or three weeks, god forbid. i could be wrong. i find it very hard to believe that russia would send troops into ukraine. toward what end would it be? i just don't know? russia is asserting itself on the world stage in sochi and putin is a master of his own almost cartoonish self-confidence, they have a lot of problems. >> does it work in terms of the russian psyche in the appeal of putin? >> i think we should not forget that the majority of the people

i know in intellectual moscow and st. petersburg, good liberals, younger people entering the middle class, yes, they are long since tired of putin. they want to see development of independent judiciary a real legislature, the rule of law, free press, all of these things. right now, you have an authoritarian situation and he has peaked. he still in his 60's. i think barack obama would be very pleased. like the arab spring could spread. -- is it possible this could

spread like the arab spring? >> >> if we have not learned humility of judgment about the direction that these things take whether it is in a positive way in tunisia or highly chaotic way in egypt, then we have learned nothing. we have learned nothing. ukraine is not a story of russia but it is a story of itself and it is highly, highly complicated. remember, you already had what seemed like an exciting democratic revolution one decade ago, the orange revolution. >> 2004. >> he turned out to be corrupt, ineffective, erratic, and is replaced. then there was commissioned go -- timeshenko. >> what were her role be? >> less than she wants. look. let's not idealize completely what's on the square whether it

is in tahrir or another. there is a distinct minority of the kind of nationalists that are really gross, awful. even neofascists. the russian leadership has tried to paint everyone in the opposition with that broad brush and i do not think it has succeeded at all. it is not just the good guys in the square and the evil bit hater. there are complications that run much deeper than that. >> is a possible because of all these problems and issues, we know what is happening with respect to issue where boudin stepped up and began to have conversations -- >> up to a point. instead of killing people,

slaughter by chemical weapons, it is slaughter by bombs. >> and it seems that assad has gained some strength. >> and the opposition's pictures have changed for the worse. look. i think something interesting is taking place in putin himself. and he came back to reassert his presidency, he really did not have an ideology before. there was this centralization of power. >> an old kgb guy. now you see the conservative moralistic anti-western ideology. >> you had sat next to him during dinner. during "the washington post?" >> tom brokaw had dinner while he was in office for a little while in new york at one of those u.n. activities. i was put next to him probably

because i can speak russian and he was, at that time -- this is in 2002 or so. he had not been in office very long, but the habits of posture and the way he did and did not interact with, to him, very suspicious western characters, most of the reporters, editors, he was very much a kgb man. highly reserved, very wry, tough, no sense of humor whatsoever and not strutting in self-confidence, as cartoonish as he can be now. shirt off, tranquilizer gun

shooting tigers, whales, underwater deep-sea diving for archaeological treasures. this is part of creating the image of a vital russian man. >> the real man. >> we find it hilarious and fodder for jon stewart or stephen colbert, but it plays big with the base. >> david remnick, new yorker magazine. "putin's bid for gold." back in a moment. stay with us. ♪ [applause]

>> we begin this evening with a look at islam and tunisia. joining me now from washington is rachid ghannouchi a cofounder of a moderate islamist hardy and 2011 after the ouster of president ben ali. he urged his own party to step down making room for the interim government in the drafting of the constitution signed into law january 26 and elections will be held later this year.

with a military coup in egypt and the civil war in syria, tunisia is seen as the last glimmer of hope in the so-called arab string. i'm pleased to have rachid ghannouchi on the program with me for the first time. thank you for joining us. >> i welcome you, sir. >> let me begin with three quotes about tunisia. first, what you have said in an interview with my friend. you said, "tunisia is the last candle still shining and the arab spring despite all of the wind that are blowing at it." in his speech today on washington, you said tom "the tunisian model has proven to the whole world that democracy is a dream that can be realized in the muslim world and around the world despite the regression in the arab spring countries over the last few months."

and from tom friedman, why is it that the arab awakening country where the u.s. had the least involvement is where the most progress towards a democracy?" i want to begin this evening with your telling us where tunisia is today and how you were able with the tunisian people and other leaders to bring it to this place. >> tunisia, following the constitution and after the setting up of a national elections, the dependent commission, and after forming of the government, the tunisian

train is already on the path to elections by the end of the year so that tunisia would declare the first arab democratic government. >> what have you done differently in tunisia that did not happen in egypt, syria, or other places? >> the circumstances of tunisia are different than other arab countries. we took on the consensual democracy rather than the democracy of the majority. we promoted them among all factions in order to reach a consensus. we do not count on the majority

only there is a success for the tunisian elites and all its factions in order to reach a consensus. i think there is a failure on the part of other groups to build a consensus among themselves. >> some of those who are members of your own party and others who feel very strong about islam have asked the question, should they be disappointed that the constituion does not enshrine shia law would declare itself an islamic state. >> members of our party are similar to the individuals and

satisfied with the outcome we have achieved from where tunisia has emerged and started to move towards democracy. but islam is mentioned in the constitution. it is a successful merger between moderate islam and more secular modern values. therefore, moderate islamists and secularists found and the constitution a reflection of themselves and that is why they are satisfied but extremists on either side, of course they would not be satisfied with the constitution but they are a minority.

most of the tunisian people are moderates. >> the party has designated a terrorist organization. >> it is indeed as long as they resort to violence in order to impose its ideology, that it is a terrorist organization. >> "the washington post " says tunisia succeeded in large part because of you who urged his movement to set aside most of its ideological agenda in favor of compromise. is that a fair appraisal of what you did?

>> we appreciate for this newspaper, the spirit treatment to us -- this fair treatment to us, but this was from our keen interest to ensure the interest. we promoted tolerance and we have no interest outside of the national interests. we think islam is a faith of tolerance, compassion, diversity, and not a faith that calls for killing and it is not against democracy or human rights. >> you believe you are showing that islam and democracy can come together and function together. >> this is the instance of our enterprise.

since i started to work in the political arena, when i founded a movement, however the enterprises to affirm that it does not contradict but complement each other in the tunisian constitution has been successful between islam modernity, gender equality, it is all inclusive and it recognizes the rights of minorities. >> was it difficult for you to have to deal with members of the regime that had imprisoned you on more than one occasion? >> yes, it was difficult. >> yes, it was difficult.

we have to overcome our personal emotions to inflict retribution because that would not lead to democracy but rather ruling. therefore, we trusted the transition system so that individuals would be held accountable for the group. the parties were operating under the old era and it is the judgment of the people who will hold them accountable. the democratic system would hold them accountable. if the nation or the people elect them, that is the people's judgment. >> what was the mistake -- or do you believe the muslim brotherhood made a serious mistake in egypt?

>> perhaps that they did not succeed in achieving consensus between themselves and their opponents, perhaps they may have relied on the rule of legitimacy and it would have been established. but in the case of nascent democracies, the majority by itself, there must be consensus, there must be a national dialogue that is all-inclusive and would lead to the participation of the major powers and the major powers are the moderate islamicists and secularists that must cooperate. one side is not sufficient to attain the goal.

>> did you and the opposing political parties do things to make sure that the military or the army would not get involved in politics? >> this is a significant difference between egypt and tunisia. the egyptian army is politicized and rule the country for over 60 years and did not believe the power would go out of its hands, but the tunisian army is not politicized and therefore it did not become a party to the political action but maintains its mission in order to save god regardless of the country to ensure the security of the

nation. we avoided the prospects that the country would slide into crisis because this would give a chance and we do not want the military to intervene in politics. >> do you believe that you have created a model that will be a shining light for other countries that are struggling between islam and democracy? not just in the middle east but asia and other places? >> this is actually our dream, our vision. it is our hope that this would continue to evolve and would cease to become a transient event but would describe the future of the entire region as a whole.

>> do believe it is possible, not what has happened in egypt but one of the most powerful countries in the region to regain what you have discovered and created, notwithstanding what looks like the corset is on? -- course it is on? >> i am fully convinced that the future of democracy in tunisia, egypt, and across the globe, there is no reason that could make us believe that the egyptian people or arabs in general are not qualified for democracy. it is not a solution. it is a problem. we think that democracy is the

solution for egypt and not a military coup d'état. the egyptian groups and factions are the solution. the coup d'état would be a problem and they would not have a future. my advice to the egyptians is to go back to dialogue and reconciliation and to consider that exclusion is not a solution but would be an essential problem. >> it looks like it is going the other way, not in dialogue but in terms of military control. >> this coup d'état is like all other who do not provide a solution but would deepen the crisis.

sooner or later, the egyptian people will go back to a democracy because fear of the autocrats, dictators, would be eliminated. fear of the ruler has done away from the hearts of people. people have restored confidence in themselves. what has been achieved in two tanisha shows that people are schlanger than rulers and people have the means and the tools to shape themselves. therefore, the egyptian people will not go backward and they will continue to struggle until they restore their freedom and liberty. >> what does the tunisian economy need? what is necessary for stabilizing the economy? >> it

is necessary for the tunisian economy, first and foremost, democracy. stability, the natural resources of tunisia are limited but the most important adversary are the human element. the tunisians are uneducated people, and educated nation and the geographic location of tunisia at the heart of the mediterranean basin qualifies to accelerate the development and catch up with malaysia and singapore. what is required now our democratic systems and therefore tunisia today would be qualified if they are had -- held successfully.

tunisians believe in the social economy. it gives importance to impoverished areas and tunisia is well poised to interact with its geographic region, with europe, the united states, africa. it is qualified to represent a model for democracy and development, a model for coexistence between islamists and secularists. >> do you believe that violent radical islamists remain a serious force and threat in tanisha? >> the sentiments of the tunisian people is peaceful

culture. the mainstream culture is against violence. terrorism in tunisia is quite an extraordinarily exceptional case. it is a universal sentiment that you find in tunisia. if we build democracy, development, and we managed to explain to the tunisian youth that rather islam is justice, tolerance, and quality. >> how much resistance is to what your goals and dreams, how much resistance within your own party?

>> this is a well established culture and our party for years now. i have written extensively about that in my books, my articles, my presentations, and whole generation of tunisians were raised against this cultural background and this has become forceful in tunisia, especially the democratic stance that has become an attractive model for you and islam is. >> what do you expect from the united states? >> we expect that the united

states to consider that the success of the tunisian democratic government is enough to work. we invite the united states to spend some time in the promote democracy in order to build up a model for democratic transformation because this is the most viable path to combat terrorism. >> what do you expect from other moderate islamist?

we expect from moderate islamists, which are the mainstream of islam because terrorism is an extreme margin. it is an exception. we expect that muslims all over the world, that democracy would be the path to development, the path to unity, and to renounce violence and promote the correct interpretation of islam meaning justice, equality, mercy, and compassion among all human beings and that islam promotes everything that is good, everything that is beneficiary to the community. >> is there a battle now in the

world of action and ideas for the heart and soul of islam? you in your country represents what can be accomplished in democracy, moderation. on the other hand, we see a minority of islamists who believe that they look at egypt and other places and believe the only way to go is through armed insurrection and insurgency. >> indeed, there is a battle for islam. they would like to hijack "islam." in order to use it to end in order to dictate its ideology on human beings. islam stands for justice, liberty, and any element to

control human beings because the overwhelming majority of muslims want to live in peace like other human beings. they would like to see good come to all people. they would like to see justice and compassion purveying across the society. they would just like to see that and there is no room for richer view showing or extremism. >> and finally this, what role will you play on the future of tunisia? >> this question relates to me personally. i really have no special political ambitions for myself.

i have exceeded the tunisian revolution which was led by the tunisian youth. we would like them to be in the vanguard leading the whole process. if i could continue my role and contribute to the success of democratic modern men, then i would be happy because i have done something for the tunisian people, the arabs, the muslims, and for all humankind. >> and the urgent need, the immediate need is what? >> the urgent need today is to

convince people that dialogue, consensus and pursuing the path of coexistence and steering away from exclusion is the solution. we must bring on board all tunisians. they should bring on board all egyptians. we must learn the skill and art so that we all enjoy happiness instead of working one party against the other. >> thank you for joining us this evening. it's a pleasure to have you on this broadcast and i hope we can do it again. >> it is my hope to see you, sir, in tunisia. if you come and visit tunisia, it is nice but it is nicer

without a dictator, without ben ali. it is nicer with democracy. >> rachid ghannouchi talking about the shining example of democracy. thank you again. >> thank you, sir. i am pleased to have had this interview with you. >> my jacket moved up and i had my firearm in on my right side hip. i feel like you saw it. he looked at it and he said, you're going to die tonight." i felt his arm going down my side and i grabbed it and i just grabbed my arm around and i held on.

>> two years have passed since trey von martin, an unarmed black teenager killed in a gated florida community. the criminal trial of george zimmerman and his acquittal riveted the nation. even president obama weighed in. >> you know, when trey von martin was first shot, i said it could have been my son. another way of saying that is trey von martin could have been me. when you think about why in the african-american community at least there's a lot of pain around what happened here, i think it's important to recognize that the african-american community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that does not go away.

>> she covered this case for nbc news and msnbc and she writes about it in a new book, suspicion nation, the inside story of the trey von martin and justice -- trayvon martin injustice. let's talk about zimmerman first. since the acquittal, what has happened? >> he's popped up in the news. his wife and girlfriend have accused him of pointing guns at them. they both recanted and dropped the charges. we've seen him go to the gun manufacturer and pose for pictures like a celebrity. he signed up to do a celebrity boxing match but after public outcry, that was canceled. >> why was he acquitted? >> he was acquitted because the state of florida failed to make his case.

inside the jury room, they described going through and i want to make it clear that i do not blame the jury. i'm blame the professionals and the prosecutors for making such profound blunders in this case that i've never seen. >> he said the defense did a good job in the sense of putting trey von martin on trial when he should not be. he's the victim in this case, but in reality, that's what happens. the prosecution allowed trey von martin to be on the defense. >> he was not only on trial but he did not have an effective advocate in the courtroom. i don't think the prosecution believed in their case. they do not believe he was a victim because they did not argue the evidence they had. >> there were some questions of the prosecution.

>> until april 11, they did not even charge him. they did not think he was worthy of being arrested and it was the public outcry, the groundswell of support. many participated in that and it led to the arrest but that is just the beginning, not the end. they still had approved the case. >> did they have a theory of the case? >> they did not and i've never seen a prosecutor win without a theory of the case. you have to give the jury a story. they will not do that job for you. >> that's what the defense will do. >> the defense had a very coherent theory one that george zimmerman articulated from the very first moment when he arrived smoking gun in hand and said it was self-defense. at trial, the defense painted a very scary picture. trey von martin was assaulting him, reaching for the gun so he

had to grab the gun and shoot in self-defense. it's a terrifying story and if anyone believed it it would be self-defense but the mechanics of the evidence did not support it and he showed on video that his gun was holstered behind him and therefore it would not be physically possible for him to be lying on his back on a dark night with trayvon martin to see the gun. >> what is your theory of the case? >> putting together the evidence very carefully and having watched the trial several times is he took the gun down when he initially encountered martin. we know he did not want him to get away. he was frustrated with other young african-american men that you call the police about that had gotten away. we know from the young woman that trayvon was talking to on the phone, his first words were,

"why were you following me? get off. get off." that sounds as though zimmerman was the aggressor and ironically he was the one standing his ground. i think you got one good punch in and that is reflected in the injuries. he did not count his head on the cement like he's said and he certainly did not see the gun and reach for it because it would not be physically possible. >> has racial profiling in this country changed? >> i was shocked to discover how widespread racial profiling is and it's not just florida. in new york city, racial profiling has been a profound problem. a federal judge has said 4 million african-american and hispanic young males were racially profile and it was unconstitutional. it happens all over the country. one thing i wanted to do with

the book is say this is not just about demonizing george zimmerman that all of us looking at our own implicit racial biases. most of us think we are not racist yet when you take these clever psychological tests you may discover you do have an explicit racial bias. there is no denying that the outcomes are still very bad in terms of income, education, housing, jobs. the only way to overcome is to understand and acknowledge how this deep-seated bias continues to work. law enforcement and police can be trained to stop engaging in racial profiling. doctors can be trained to stop spending twice as much time with white patients than black patients. when we become conscious, we can change. most of us want to be egalitarian. >> the book is called "suspicion nation" by lisa bloom.

thank you for coming. >> thank you so much. >> thank you for joining us. we'll see you next time. ♪

>> live from pier three in san francisco, welcome to bloomberg west where we cover innovation, technology, and the future of business. weighing in on bitcoin, telling the senate banking committee the fed has no authority to regulate the digital currency. the office of now-defunct bitcoin exchange.