>> i just wanted to check and make sure we were on schedule.

our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. president of 20th harvard university. she is the first female

president. she served in that role since 2007. in her address she said, the university is not about results in the next quarter. it is not about who a student has become by graduation. learning that molds a lifetime. it is about learning that shapes the future. i am pleased to have the person who said that back at this table. welcome. i want to talk about universities today and some criticism they are receiving and how they confront challenges in the future. tell me how is harvard today. you went through some fundraising difficulties. and you have taken note of that. there were questions about the merits of a college education and people not being able to find jobs, raising questions about what people are really getting.

tell me how hard it is and what are your answers. >> this is an interesting time for higher education, and a time in which it is going to change more than it has changed since whennd of the 19th century the research university was invented. dramatically as it was when it was invented. it is hard because of the kind of transformations we see in the roles that we live in, the digital revolution and what that means for teaching and learning. the globalization of higher education. those are important factors. i think there are significant sets of expectations that have been articulated, partly in the aftermath of the financial crisis. does it contribute to a life, a future? how does it contribute to a society? how do we evaluate what universities offer? >> it is the best time, when

those questions are being raised, to remember what universities are for. and some of that, you make sure you the best of the past and look forward to the future. >> exactly. i worry somewhat that we will focus narrowly on the immediate outcomes that have become so pressing in the aftermath of the financial crisis, the question of what is the contribution that the university makes to the employability, the life of an individual, and to the economic structure of society. those are absolutely important things for university to, but it is also important that we keep the long term in view and ask ourselves about how universities contribute to building citizens for the future, people who will be the pillars of our democracy in the years to come, people will be able to adapt beyond a first job to a future that we can hardly imagine the shape of. we will have the kind of habits

of mind, the kind of ways of thinking, the kinds of ways of understanding of the world from which they come, to be ready, tenures after graduation, 20 years after graduation for jobs that have not been invented yet. >> i think i remember this in a speech you did in which you quoted charles elliott, in which he said we want engineers, architects, and chemists. but we think they will be better at that if they learn something of the humanities and what it means to be a citizen. >> yes. and what it means to be part of a world that is not necessarily like the world that you came up in your own origins and own immediate experience. the globalization part of higher education part of all of our lights is critical here. the students i go to harvard are going to be lawyers, doctors, or business people, or public servants in a global context. they're going to have to deal with individuals from societies that are quite different from

their owns. they speak languages different from their own. how can they themselves into those peoples heads in order to understand what motivates them? those are critical questions to come from. they come from humanistic study, as much as from other fields. >> another critical question is access. former secretary clinton raised this question. universities are so expensive today. and i know you feel strongly that university support and financial aid for students. but that is an issue for so many people, of what it cost to attend a great university. >> you talked about the criticisms that universities are being subjected to and the kinds of doubts people have about them. that those are coupled with an appetite for what a university can be, and a desire to be part of one and have one's children be part of one. how can we make the university affordable to the wide range of people who can benefit from the experience?

i think we need to look at in a couple of ways -- >> it is not only good for them. it is good for the university. oure greatly extended financial aid programs the last decade, so we increased our spending on financial aid by 90% since 2010. we have a program that permits families making less than $65,000 a year to come with no parental contribution at all. we are working very hard to make harvard affordable. in fact, it is the cause of education that have gone down at harvard. 60% of our undergraduate students are on financial aid. if you're on financial aid you pay about $12,000 a year for your harvard education. i think that is important. making higher education affordable is a much broader challenge than that. we have been very lucky to benefit from the kinds of resources that are alumni and

friends have given us over the years to support the financial aid commitments. that is the case everywhere. let me say something about another aspect of affordability. if you look at what states have extended for students on higher education, and the public higher education in the united states, that is gone down 26%. >> per capita. >> per capita. theou're talking about individual states of the 50 states. >> university of california berkeley, university of north carolina. highering cost of public education is closely related to the declining support -- >> they have to raise the price of tuition and everything else -- >> yes. part of what we have to ask ourselves is how do we make college more affordable by being much more cost conscious? we also have to ask ourselves, as a society, what are we willing to invest in higher

education, which i firmly believe is a public good. does our society still believe that? >> you raise the question in public statements and speeches that, in fact, the level of support from the federal government to higher education is declining? relatively to where was. >> a significant portion of what we could harvard is research. about 16% of our operating budget -- >> 16? >> comes from federal support. >> and is declining? >> it is declining. thehe last decade purchasing powers from the national institute of health, which is our biggest federal funder, has gone down about 25%. where is the united states going to do the scientific research under those circumstances? i can tell you a story about a

wonderful discovery that was made, announced this last week. it is a discovery about a proteins that inhibits the development of alzheimer's, made by a young faculty member in our medical school. he applied for nih funding and got the highest possible score. but because of the client support for nih that did not guarantee that you would be funded. when the qualifiers relisted, the top three were funded. he used to be that maybe six or eight of those were funded. he was number four. >> yeah. >> the cutoff was three. >> no funding. >> so how could he advances extraordinary work without the funds out there? that is a lesson to us of a very specific sort. and also a very troubling one -- >> so it is going to happen to him --

>> he has been doing it more slowly. he is not been able to advance as quickly as he would have. i hope he has a good result and his next grant will be funded. i hope you will break through on that. but is a lesson to all of us. here this extraordinarily destructive disease, destructive human capacity -- >> and would have be slowing down one of the important theents in trying to reduce impact, yet at the same time, you got one of the largest single grant it never received for $150 million. >> that is not a federal gift weigh -- >> that is what is saying. you launched a capital campaign. you're not getting federal money, but you seem to be getting gifts of significant size. we are. that gift was for financial aid

for one of our highest priorities, for access affordability. who wantsm and alum to make places like harvard open to students of talent. if you think about how much federal money we get every year, that is $670 million year -- >> 670 million? >> yes. what substitutes for that? that is annually. it takes a lot of the length of the to compensate for what the federal government has done. >> are you able to reduce your things on the expense side through wise financial management? >> we are certainly attending to that in a variety of ways, administrative ways of consolidating functions and .hing about costs also, asking hard questions. again, the downturn in 2008

was a challenge. what can we do different than what we were doing? what we do less of? welcome we do more efficiently? >> do believe that members of the academy make good managers? >> all of them? >> no. is it a rule though? it is a very different talent. >> it is a different talent. >> after all, you are a historian who writes books? >> people ask me what does history have to do with being a university president and wasn't that a complete disjuncture? it makes me a better university president then if i did not understand history because leadership is about change. it is about envisioning change. managing change. ringing people to embrace change. what is history about? history is about change. what is the civil war about? it is about a very concentrated

period in which everything changed. that equip me very well, i think, are the kinds of changes -- >> and it is true that if you don't understand history, you will be doomed to repeat it. >> correct. when you look at online education, is that a positive thing for universities? because i love my university experience. i love being on campus. i loved everything about it and everything. at the same time, there are people who cannot do that, for whatever reason. now they get to access a great university angry teachers online. >> online education will never replace base runner things that happen when you bring people together from around the country and around the world to learn together. when you think about your university education, when i think about what goes on at day, thisvery

serendipitous encounters, those are irreplaceable. what online education can do is supplement. it is extraordinary. we, together with m.i.t., founded an organization two years ago to produce online content to share with people all around the world. through theis content part of the delivery system of the platform. so far, we have more than one million individuals who benefited from those courses. one of my favorites of those stories related to this was a public health course that was offered in the very first fall that we're involved in this program. several been to india months before and was made so

aware of the public health needs -- soia and it's only me many people come up to me and said, can we get more of your faculty here to consult? i came back feeling very passionate about trying to do more with india because of the challenges. they were so enormous. this asic health course that was offered in the following fall, basic was not for -- health course that was offered in the following fall, and it was not for just that, it was building blocks of public health. it was taken by 8000 people in india. isre, in an eye blink, or the kind of impact for public health knowledge and the dissemination of that knowledge that all of the partnerships that i was going to dream up would not have approached. the partnerships are still important. we will still do those things. but here we had a level of outreach that would have been unimaginable.

one of the things i love about it is how the users figure out how they want to take these courses. wade one instance where someone who's taken a course in mumbai said, i want to see glosses taken the course. he created a kind of flash mob of statisticians who came together. all whole hospital staff in india took a course together, so they could share the experience and have a face-to-face dimension of the online course. think about that impact, and thing about what can be available in that mode, simply is not available and cannot be made available, readily in a face-to-face mode. it is very striking. >> you went to gettysburg for the university. >> the 150th anniversary. i did. address in thehe

honor and that, and lincoln talking about making sure that those who died did not die in vain, would you tell them when you had a chance to be there and a rubber that speech, but also remember the problems they were having today? >> as i was thinking about the anniversary and thing about going to gettysburg, i wrote a piece for the washington post that kind of summarized my , and what i focused on was the notion of how much sacrifice had been made for this extraordinary nation that lincoln described as the last, best hope, as democracy was disappearing around the world in the mid-19th century. inc. inbounds to the north to take on this by mark goebel set of commitments to keep the set ofhome -- remarkable

commitments to keep the nation home. if we do not want people to have died in vain for that -- >> and we lost a lot of people -- >> what have we abandoned? as we were approaching the anniversary, the government was closed. we were in deadlock in washington. wade congress that was able to exercise their responsibility of democracy. >> and they were examining the very role of government. and you're saying to remember, how do we ensure we have a government by the people, for the people, and one that shall never perish. we haveumor that what inherited, in the way of responsibilities to those who built this for us. and what we owe to that past into the future, and our obligation to sustain it. talk about great universities, they talk about

the united states. i think the top 20 great universities on most people's are in the them united states. oxford and cambridge would be exceptions. what is required for china and india, and other places, but they have some resources there, to build a great university? how quickly can they build a series of great universities? >> it is a very interesting question. both china and india are thinking hard about that. one of the aspects that china has identified as of increasing importance is how american students and universities are filled with curious, imaginative, creative people. , theyf that, i find believed to come from the liberal arts. from the breath of training.

from not being so narrowly focused on just a very particular and specific area of knowledge -- >> like computer science -- >> but to enrich that with a perspective from somewhere else that may give you a different angle and enable you to make a new discovery that you would not have thought of -- >> in terms of how to enhance creativity. i just thought about this, the interesting thing about china, for example. there's this myth that they are and you wrote learning. some of that may be true. and rather than a full understanding of humanities and history. yet they talk about the richness of their history and the longevity. that is one of the think the most product. -- proud about. >> how is the integrated into an educational system and how one thinks about a particular set of subjects, as part of an educational system? that is what they're trying to figure out.

>> take you coming out of a small town in virginia, with a good education and wonderful opportunities, and a big brain, and all the things that you've done. if you're coming out of there today, and knowing what you know now, would you make different choices? >> my life unfolded as a series of surprises because i was entering a world in which things are changing so rapidly for i wanthat, if i had said to be the president of harvard when i was 10 years old, people would've thought it was crazy. choice inup to each my life, it was almost miraculous luck that suddenly something would open up, and i would be a will to do something that the generation before me would not have been able to do. you got pregnant, my daughter is now 32 result, seizing get the very clearly, at the university

of pennsylvania, there was no maternity leave well. no one knew what to do with me. it was a lot of goodwill. so we sort of invented it. i ended up, perhaps in the early version of the online future. i taped my lectures for the time of a month and a half around when i might have the baby, so that when i started delivering the child we could show the class selectors online. baby, isdelivered the out of my colleagues and said, we need a policy here. we invented a policy. now it is taken for granted everywhere. >> were the things that you thought, i might do. my impression is that the answer is no. -- that i might've done, but there's not an opportunity for woman so i will not go down that road. or did you go down the road you are inched it in, and it turned out, i achievement and people

looking at options and saying, what is the best choice, they end up with you? butdn't ask that very well, did you not go places you might've gone? i i can think of anything wanted to do that i didn't do because i was prohibited from it. maybe initially i might've been. i feel very lucky, in that regard. >> i do too. i come a very small town with parents who did not go to college. they said, you can do anything you want to. and i believed that. and to believe that is so important. >> that is why we have to make college accessible and make sure that people like you have the opportunities that your parents promised you do it have. that is what our nation is about. they gets back to what you are asking about the gettysburg address. that is part of the hope for us. and that is the engine of

democracy, education. thomas jefferson recognize that early on. we have to see it as a public good for the nation. everything that i read. every leader that i know, waking has elements of wisdom, looks at education is the key to the future. how do i change and make education better? there is a checkered history of doing that for lots of reasons, and certainly the world this pool of people who do not want an educated populace. but those that think about the future, and genuinely thing about change, it begins with education. >> and it has to be an education that teaches people to ask questions. that is how we invent the future. >> thank you. great to see you. too.eat to see you ♪

will is here. he is a pulitzer prize winning author and columnist. he has been writing for more than 40 years. he is a syndicated column in the washington post. he is also a lifelong chicago

cubs fan. his book is called a nice little place on the north side. it tells the story of wrigley field, one of the most legendary field in baseball. i am pleased to have him here today. welcome. >> glad to be here. >> the washington post, you're still writing a column. has it changed today? change, whatever. it is syndicated to other papers. when i first started writing, charlie, i wrote from home and my column went to the post by motorcycle. by carrier pigeon. [laughter] on.hen you moved >> yes. then the show that i was on on day one -- >> and that was with david brinkley --

>> yes. that moved to new york. george stephanopoulos. t a little weary of saturday night to new york. nothing against you. >> i can guarantee we can give you a better time with saturday night in washington. that is a debate, i guess. but washington is interesting. if you came to new york, i'm a ticket to restaurant. the violet washington, it would be entertaining in my home, depending on the level of my friendship. illinois is your home. your father was a professor. >> a professor of philosophy. >> what was the great divide between being a cardinals fan and a chicago fan? >> good sense. [laughter] midway.w up

the university is there. at an age to tender, 70 zone, which is supposedly the age of reason, and an age to tender to make like shaping decisions, had to choose between a cardinal and cub fan. all of my friends became cardinal fans. they became tearful. i became a conservative. i chose the wrong team. -- they became tearful. i became a conservative. cheerful. i became conservative. i chose the wrong team. and then you feel the sense of loyalty. football combines the two worst features of american life. committee meetings and a huddle. a spectacle.

it is a big spectacle. baseball is a habit. i was on a major league committee called baseball and the 21st-century. we did research. we came up with a conclusion about 90% of self identified nfl fans have never been to an nfl game. , goingion makes nfl fans to the ballpark makes baseball fans. >> is it still a way? >> i think it is. the important things were jackie robinson, free agency, and camden yards being built. hideousll those multipurpose stadiums that were good for neither respond or football. a guy would come to the plate. he could not tell if he was in san diego, st. louis, pittsburgh . phil look-alike. --n camden yard said >> what was at memorial stadium before them? stadium. memorial

it was for baltimore fans. the people who build camden yard said, look, baseball is a uniquely observable game. people are spread out on an eye pleasing greenfield. it is the most observable of team games. back in andple return the game, and look what happened. we have had 22 new ballparks. every one of them is superb. ask how you like the nationals? >> very good. >> season-ticket? i have a handicapped son with down syndrome. he is it 81 games a year. he is a better job than i have. he is up in the nature league ballpark. >> he is probably happier than you are too.

he is right there with his passion, right? this book. wrigley field. the story of the baseball stadium? >> no one would care about it if the team did not play their. it is also the story of chicago, which is just breathtaking. the first fact about it is it is very old. wrigley field is the second oldest major leg ballpark. fenway park is of years older. and the secondt oldest in the national league as dodger stadium, believe or not. >> dodger stadium. >> you and i are sitting in midtown manhattan. the chrysler building. the empire state building. >> the new trade center. >> wrigley field is older than those. it is older than the supreme court building. the lincoln memorial. mount rushmore. the goal great bridge -- the

golden gate bridge. it is old. >> is a better than fenway park? >> i think so. the charm of both eyes at their put down in an organic neighborhood. fenway park is an eccentric configuration because the city got there first. theirhe giants did with wonderful park right down in china basin in san francisco is try to replicate the wrigley field experience. they only have a 13 acre footprint. that is very small. they said, we're going to see what happens to the neighborhood. the terms of the neighborhood booms. past, this pastoral nonsense. one of the early teams playing in the first half of the 18th century played on the field right near the hill in manhattan . boston and new york had semi-of opting baseball versions -- eve

olving baseball versions. >> characterize your relationship with the cubs? >> i'm a lover's quarrel with the cubs. have a lover's quarrel with the cubs. we need a win. it is no long time. they have not been to the world i was force 1945 when his old. that hardly counts. the only one because a lot of the great athletes were still in uniform in the second world war. cubs, just randomly you would think you would when. how did they manage to have this utility? >> all of a sudden, teams were getting in the world series. >> 1962, the mets are created

out of the scraps of other teams. 120 games. still a record. the manager famously looked down the dugout and said, can't anyone here play this game? seven years later they win the world series. they beat the orioles. the cubs, nothing. part of the problem may have been wrigley field, in the sense that when william wrigley, one of the early owners of the cubs, when he died, the club was inherited i his son. a nice gentleman who had no business being in baseball. he did not like being the owner of the cubs. the cubs were not very good. in fact, the euro became a cup then, 1948, they took out ads in the chicago papers to apologize or how bad the product was. are not very good,

but we have atrophic ballpark. let's market that. the grass will be so green. the sun so warm. the beer so cold. they will not care what the scoreboard says. [laughter] interestingly, they instructed c ubs broadcasters to call it c park, as if people were going to the park. there was this riff about baseball. wanted to go home. life?a metaphor for life is cool -- cruel? >> baseball is the democracy. no one gets everything they want. you go to spring training, every

tom knows it is going lose 60 games. sort itke a marathon to out. if you win 10 of 20 games, your mediocre. planu and 11, you get the october. the difference between good and mediocre, and no good at all, is pretty small. kerry did not like kerry . >> he is one of the reasons why chose the cubs. there is a statue of him outside the ballpark now. >> he would leave singing at the seventh inning. >> and they still do that. it was a tradition he started, and it lasted. >> what is the difference between a cubs fan and he white sox fan? >> job three. geography.

>> they were going to full around with that their field either. are there changes that you think baseball needs? >> let me give you the really good changes. selig ballparks since bud became the active commissioner. he took over in 1992. it isn't a billion-dollar industry. -- it is an $8 billion industry. the most common names are like perez and martinez. we have from this ocean of america,om latin particularly in the dominican republic, but all over the world.

>> baseball is so -- >> you can put together an all-star game from the dominican republic. >> how about japan? there are some good players. >> exactly. you asked about what we can do better. i suppose it is the pace of the game. not the length of the game. >> i think the length too. >> i would like to ban batting gloves. they step up and address their batting gloves. babe ruth never wore a batting glove. none of those guys were batting gloves. john miller, and the terrific baseball broadcaster, watched recently. it was game seven 1953 world series with the yankees. it did not get any more tense.

not once during the game did a better step out of the batters box. not once. if we could just change that. they've been playing baseball since they were four years old. playing people. i took practice swings between pitches. >> is your favorite player ernie banks? >> i think so. yankees versus red sox, who are you for? do i have to pick? i have to pick the team they'll make the most liberals unhappy. how do you pick? >> do you play any sports? don't play tennis. >> no. >> don't play golf? >> no. i walk. and i walk was think of books on tape.

seriously. i'm have on my phone 34 books. right now, i am reading, gosh, what is it? a biography. lincolnsy in the cabinet? >> yes. he bought alaska. >> you seem to argue the idea that it is good for at least one house of the congress to be in opposition to the president? >> i do. the american people intuitively agree. i do not think they both ote like that. vite that, there is an absence of oversight. you and i may disagree and irs scandal. i think it is a scandal that

ought to be investigated. if the republicans did not have the gavel in the house, there would be no investigation. >> what do you think would come out of it? >> i do not know. the justice department is not very good . i've been in washington for three serious scandals. , andgate, iran scandal this. >> watergate was much more popular. >> and it was much worse. but it is in the same ballpark. the guy who is in his neck and o to thee sent a mem assistant chief of staff saying we should use the machinery of the federal government to screw our enemies. they did. >> is there a link to somebody high up in the white house? >> we do not know. >> that is the big question. >> that is the question. and we will not get the question without an investigation.

what is your assessment of the president? look at him in terms of your experience in washington, pursues other people who fill the office, for better or worse. you would think that you, a man of intellect, would be attracted reads, as amended man who is a turn of mind. ,nd people who know him well respect him. >> he has been wonderful for me and my profession because he brought us back to arguments about real first principles. there is a long pedigree of his ideas that go back to woodrow wilson, and senators of the new republic. woodrow wilson was the first president to criticize the american founding.

it into a peripherally. he said, don't read the first two paragraphs of the declaration of independence, all that natural rights philosophy. is, ourthe problem government was fine for a family populated agrarian public -- republican. but now we need a robust, unfettered executive good and a more robust central government. the idea of a government that is limited is an neck and a stick, he said. he went from there to lyndon johnson, to franklin roosevelt. then do lyndon johnson who came to washington during the new deal. and now, i think, barack obama had it in mind to complete the roosevelt project with health care and all the rest.

>> the problem is we have these huge problems. we have a congress that does not seem to have the capacity to look at things in a way that ,reasures innovation creativity, and a commitment to science, and those kinds of things that are the light would of our economic engine. >> i agree. we should be booming right now. energy surplus. we have all of the great research universities. national institute of health. goodness. >> so what happened? timesare in one of those in politics. we are dealing with fundamentals. it will not last forever. we had those times before. go back to the rhetoric and the

newspapers that were party newspapers of the 1790's when the parties is murmured -- emerged. go back and read the rancor of the 1850's. >> here's my speculation, that if in fact, you could select a viable republican nomination, someone who has the opportunity to get the nomination, paul ryan would be your guy. >> he would be on the shortlist. >> who is on the shortlist with him? >> governors. scott walker. >> from wisconsin. we can take a break, if you need to. let me come back to you. governors. >> scott walker. the governor of indiana. >> the governor of ohio?

>> the governor of louisiana, sure. they have run something. they did it with legislatures that are not controlled by their own party. it is good training. >> if the republicans do and up with control of the senate and the house, and in many 16 a republican is elected, do you 2016 a republican is elected, do you think they can beat hillary clinton? >> yes. i will tell you why does doable and what the problem is. it is doable because the american people are not often give a party a third consecutive term. it is failing rare. >> george bush was the last one. >> that is right. reagan time. third and i think she may be

overrated, politically. she was the odds-on favorite to and did not. her political effort on our own with health care in 1993 and 1994. remember bill clinton said over make to for the side of wrong? vote for me and get two for the price of one? they produced a health care plan so implausible that neither the house or the senate, both controlled by the democrats, would bring it to a vote? andet me turn to russia yo sense of where we are, as a willry, and whether putin be satisfied with crimea, as long as russia has some influence in ukraine. >> no.

he will not be satisfied. he will not be satisfied with crimea, as a bit of the ukraine. he will want all of it. and he will not be satisfied with that. baltic republics, which are members of nato have large russian populations. people get in trouble for citing hitler. hillary clinton got in trouble for saying something intelligent incorrect about hitler. point, shemake the was not comparing putin to hitler. she was comparing the tactics and rhetoric. >> google the speech he gave 1930 82 days before the munich conference. he said there are 10 million germans living outside the reich , in areas contiguous to the reich.

czechoslovakia, poland. this is exactly what putin is about. ringing home to mother russia the russians outside. just as hitler would use the ethnic and link was to germans to stir up trouble and justify his defensive actions on their behalf, this is what putin is doing. he is not hitler. buddy read hitler's playbook. >> he will not be satisfied ofil he has brought most that population back into some relationship with russia? >> i think that is correct. >> and you think the united states and the west has to do what to stop them? >> i am not sure they can stop him. they do not want to incite them by weakness. we are, at this moment, and this is a long-term project. you cannot liquefy natural gas and ship it overseas. but we are net carbon exporters.

this gives us leverage against his leverage. remember this. people say, oh gosh, the i dig ditchesjak energy. but his economy is addicted to selling it to them. it is a third world country with a first world military. he needs the foreign earnings. if the price of oil would go barrel, not $110 a $20 off of that, and russia is in horrible shape. the presidenteve is right, economic sanctions can stop them? >> they're the best chance. i'm not sure they will. presupposenctions

that they are economic regulators. no. putin has another approach to politics. he is not sitting there with an adding machine and a catch you later saying, how does this affect my bottom line? he has serious nationalistic -- >> but he does have some sense of ambition. >> i think we are right to try sanctions. n do not think it will stop ira from getting nuclear weapons. >> you think they will get nuclear weapons? >> yes. >> and we will do what? >> we will need to contain them. >> and there will be proliferation throughout the east? >> there might. the saudi's, who helped fund the pakistani nuclear program, might go to pakistan and go shopping. >> this book is about baseball. a nice little place on the north side, wrigley field. there is our guest right there

when he was about 15. >> a world far away. ♪

>> welcome to polil