>> from our studio in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> on monday the united states government accused five chinese army officers of hacking into american companies. the breaches are believed to taken place in a bid for competitive advantage.

the officers are being charged with stealing trade secrets at internal documents from several u.s. companies, and the labor union. u.s. attorney general eric holder said the alleged breaches were significant and demanded and aggressive response. >> it is in the interest of china to be seen as respectors of the rule of law. our hope would be that they will cooperate with us. to the extent that we do not have the cooperation we will use all the means available to us to ultimately have these people appear in a federal court in the united states, in pittsburgh, and be given due process in american law. >> the chinese government denounce the charges and accused the united states of hypocrisy. joining me now, david sanger of "the new york times," and richard mcgregor of "the financial times." i am pleased to have both of them on this program this evening. richard, let me begin with you. exactly what does this indictment allege? >> it alleges widespread theft

of trade secrets, all sorts of private commercial e-mails by five chinese military officers stationed in shanghai working out of a pla information technology unit, but according to the indictment a full-time hacking unit. economic espionage hacking unit. if you believe what the u.s. has been saying for some time, this is the tip of the iceberg. and, the start of the new normal of how the u.s. is going to approach this issue of economic espionage. >> david, why these guys rather than their bosses? >> that is a great question. we don't entirely know yet. the case against these guys is relatively easier to make than against their case, their bosses. these are some of the same people who were written up in the mandia report in early 2013 that we wrote a fair bit about in "the times," when we found

this building and so forth. and, many of the individuals here are the people who actually sit at the keyboard and have identified themselves, or identifiable at moments where they have shown up on various chat rooms, or other online activities. identifying their bosses is not only harder to do, but it is riskier to do diplomatically because at that point the chinese could retaliate i throwing out u.s. military attaches or or officials they believe are responsible for the u.s. spying in china, including a big case we wrote about a few months ago involving the chinese networking company. there is a question here of doing this in a low level, filling out low-level diplomats,

in hopes of controlling the escalation. >> this is already a substantial escalation. if you went over these guys heads it would turn into something much bigger. maybe much more hard to quarantine. >> will they be able to quarantine it, or is the cat out of the box? >> that is hard to say. for the moment, the chinese are obviously replied angrily with the usual histrionics. they had only canceled one important meeting. if that is all that happens, it may be relatively speaking quarantine for the moment. many of these alleged instances involve trade cases and trade disputes between the u.s. and china.

the hacking of the u.s. steel. if it spills over into trades and the theft of trade secrets by chinese individual stations, then it becomes part of actual trade disputes. then it starts to snip into another realm altogether. >> after snowden, who has the moral high ground? if anybody? >> it is hard to say. the u.s. position until now has been, big country spy against each other. it happens all the time for national security purposes. the united states says it does not do is spy on behalf of commercial american firms. it doesn't take information from china telecom and give it to at&t. with the chinese do, and the evidence suggests strongly, they might steal from westinghouse

and give it to a state owned enterprise that competes with westinghouse. to the chinese this distinction makes no sense because the chinese you economic security and national security as a whole. there is no question from the snowden revelations that the u.s. does go after chinese companies. including china telecom. there is a long other list. the other difficulty i think the u.s. runs into is one that richard touched on. if the chinese are spying to understand american positions in trading negotiations, the u.s. has done that for years. act of the 1990's, we wired up the limousine of the japanese chief negotiator in auto talks. he later became prime minister. we did that to get economic advantage in those talks. >> let me add. if you look at the most sensitive documents mr. snowden leaked, the intelligence budget, if you look at that, it sets out that the intelligence community will be using its full resources

to support trade enforcement efforts. just as all big country spy in the middle of trade disputes to get a negotiating advantage. i am sure president xi and president obama talked about this. the question is, why these indictments now? >> one american official told me there was a pretty big debate about a year ago inside the administration about whether to act against these actors at that time. there is nothing in the evidence that we saw in this indictment that wasn't available to the u.s. government last year or the year before. i think what happened was, the snowden disclosures set the obama administration back on its heels. they needed to regain the initiative. a were afraid otherwise they

would run through the entire term with the chinese convinced the snowden events had taken the wind out of the sails of the u.s. efforts to enforce on this. >> president obama met president xi and the u.s. laid out that the cyber theft as tom donnelly described after the meeting was the single biggest economic issue between the two countries. i remember covering the conference, and jumping in my car to the airport, and on the radio, after that, edward snowden unveiled himself in hong kong. i think that really put the u.s. off-balance on this issue. it has taken them some time to attempt to try to and tackle its. >> i talked to president obama after the meeting in california. here is what he said then. >> every country in the world, large and small, engages in intelligence gathering.

that is an occasional source of tension. it is generally practiced within bounds. there is a difference between china wanted to figure out how can they find out what my talking points are when i'm meeting with the japanese, which is standard fare, and we try to prevent them from penetrating that, and they try to get that information. there is a difference between that and a hacker working with the chinese military, breaking into apple's software systems to see if they can attain the designs for the latest apple

product. that is theft. we can't tolerate it. we have had very blunt conversations about this. they understand, i think, this can adversely affect the fundamentals of the u.s. china relationship. we don't consider this a side note in our conversation. >> president putin is in asia. what do you make of what he is trying to do it his relationship with china? >> charlie, everybody has an asian pivot under way. i think it is putin's turn to show whether he can deliver on it. he recognizes that with the sanctions that are under way against russia after the crimea and ukraine events, that he needs a major trading partner.

i think he believes that a right now he is one of those moments where u.s. relations with china and russia are down low. so he sees an opportunity to come together in a way that the countries have never managed to do cents at the end of the cold war. >> the pit that is as much a backlash as anything else. it is a backlash against against china. it is the opposite with russia. as u.s. falls out with russia, there naturally drawn to china. i think we should wait and see for concrete initiatives coming out of this particularly on gas. the china and russia have had countless top meetings in the past. they have a distrustful, wary relationship. i am not so sure that they can work together that closely. >> david, talk about about how you see the iran nuclear negotiations going at this stage. >> they just hit last week the first inevitable blockades. it may be a temporary one.

last week was the week where both sides had to sit down and begin to draft what a final agreement would look like. lumbar holds, what happened? they discovered huge sticker shock. the iranians can get their heads around the thought that they might have to cut by two thirds or three quarters the number of centrifuges they have, that is the equipment they have that enriches uranium. the americans had to deal with an iranian demand that they might increase by three or four fold so they could produce fuel for a set of reactors they have yet to build. this is the moment where we're going to discover whether these are just negotiating positions, or if both sides are so stuck in the cement because of their constituencies at home that neither the clerics, or the iranian revolutionary guard on the one hand will allow the iranian negotiations to go through, and congress may not allow president obama much room.

>> thank you both. see you soon. >> thank you. >> back in a moment. stay with us. ♪ >> daniel radcliffe is here. for many fans, he was the face of the "harry potter" films. he has moved beyond into roles that range from a dancing con man in the musical "how to succeed in business without really trying," to allen ginsberg in the film "kill your darlings." his latest character is in the revival of martin mcdonagh's "the cripple of inishmaan." he plays a disabled irish orphan who dreams of a better life, and falling in love. ben bradley calls it, "his most satisfying stage work to date." i am pleased to have daniel radcliffe back at this table. welcome. >> thank you, thank you very much. >> tell me what you said to me as you sat down about if you're in a martin mcdonagh play. your role is to not screw it up. >> absolutely. that is all you have to do. people, everyone is saying the same thing. on the whole, people enjoy the

play, had a great time and great experience, and the thing i always say, we are just incredibly lucky to be doing such a fantastic play. to feel like, a lot of the time actors have to try and sometimes, they strive to elevate the material to more than it is. to be in a play this good all we have to do is, not screw it up. >> what makes it great? >> i think what makes this play great is it pulls off a very tricky balancing act between two totally different tones. it is both incredibly cruel, and brutal, and sad in some ways, in terms of billy's life and the way people treat each other, and yet it is also a laugh a minute. martin keeps you laughing. and really laughing, like the belly laugh that you don't see coming. it takes your breath away with laughter throughout the play. i think that there is that sort

of sweet spot between, because martin's characters are all such big characters. my auntie kate talks to stones and johnny is the village drunk and gossip, and they are all larger-than-life characters. if you play them in a grounded way, and i hope we are, it hits a sweet spot between the high-end nature of his plays and real reality which has an emotional impact. >> tell me who billy is. >> billy is the character i play. orphan. he has never had any information , his life has been a massive swirling rumors about the circumstances of his parents' death. what a trying to abandon him, were they trying to send back for him? he grows up a sense of maybe he was never wanted. also, because of the disability

he lives with, people treat him in a manner which unfortunate thele were often treated in 1930's. , his not only dismissed dreams and aspirations dismissed, but also the way he is treated as a relentless -- >> what is the disability? vagueis left deliberately so people can put their interpretation on that. the stage direction describes him as billy enters the room one bad arm, one bad leg, shuffling. of my vocal one coaches, with her the script and identified clues that martin gives. this was something billy was born with. this is something that affects one side of his body.

just doing generalized, i wanted to make it something specific that i can learn about. researching cerebral palsy, which is what i determined he could have. thing aboutesting the disability is that he shuffles, and the in the beginning it is a hindrance to his desire for a relationship. >> yes. ,nd his desire for anything because people refuse to see him as anything but a best ability -- a disability. people don't seem with aspirations to kiss a girl. in talking to people who live with various disabilities, todd or anythingave cp,

like that, i try to talk to as many people as i could. the thing that came up again was between howtion people perceive you and our people know yourself to be. it is one of the most isolating things to live with. keything that i thought was . >> one person says you are too kindhearted. >> that is the same. billy is very kindhearted. he does pull off one of the er acts of manipulation in the play. billy as ae to play victim. he is not. he is smart. and kindpassionate hearted. one of the reasons i love him is that he has all those things despite how people treat him. he has been shown very little compassion get he has so much to

give. it is unfair to say he is an innocent. >> helen is played by sarah green. tell me about the relationship. she changes. a wonderfully complicated character. , shes on the one hand storms onto the stage and dominates the place. all the men are slightly scared of her. , she is a child of abuse. she has suffered in a lot of her bravado is covering up vulnerability she does not want to show. in terms of billy, i think billy is the only one who says tom a toward the end of the play, he talks about the boys who laughed at him in school, and helen would have not laughed at him. she would have cried.

she's always been in love with her. -- she has always been in love with her. it is a hopeless love story. sayslovely line, where he there are many reasons to come back to ireland. i have one reason. thing,ays, that is the billy goes to america and comes back. she is the only thing he misses about the island. i think she's the only thing that really makes the idea of long-term life their bearable. >> roll tape. out withu not stepping anyone else? >> i am not. >> i've never been kissed. >> of course you've never been kissed. america, i tryn to think about the things i missed about home. what i miss the scenery?

the stone walls, and the sea. i wouldn't miss it. i wouldn't miss that. would i miss the people? >> is this speech going somewhere question mark -- s somewhere? >> i would miss my auntie. i wouldn't miss johnny with his bad news. methe guys that laughed at at school. or the lasses that would cry if i spoke to them. it during round, there isn't anybody i would really miss, other than you. >> you would miss the cows.

>> the cal business was blown up out of proportion. i'm trying to build up to something. >> this has happened before. you want to do this. because? >> that is a filmed performance on a stage. it is, if i could put something into a room and ensure it vanishes from existence, it would be filming theater. you are giving a performance that is for the size of a theater. you are speaking vocally to the back of the room. it looks unnatural. if you were filming that scene, i would be speaking at this volume. >> i've thought about this. it seems there must be a way so that you could have the audio at the back of the room so that projection would not be jarring. >> that is a good idea.

we will try that. >> you are projecting. >> it is an intimate scene. >> there is interest the thing about him. the dreams of hollywood. for all that he suffers in terms of his dignity, it doesn't destroy his dreams. >> i think that the film coming is absolutely the most exciting thing that has ever happened. >> hollywood has arrived. , it happened to the island. it was a big moment in the island's history. i think more than a love of film, it is an escape. it is a chance to get off the island and not only join this

film industry but be taken back to america. billy views america as a place of tolerance. i think he thinks i may not be treated in the same way. >> he doesn't want to be called crippled. he wants a fresh start to define himself. like i think that is the thought. that is one of many tragedies. experience in america does not go as he wanted it to. >> brent bradley says it is the story of how and why we tell stories. >> yes. that is an interesting part of the play. patine.itated by johnny the number of stories billy has heard about his parents, about

circumstances, have grown to shape and define his life, and trap him. then, by the telling of another story, he is briefly set free from that. it takes at is, reviewer to come in and see a theme and a play that you may have forgotten. >> the matter how discomforting it is, a michaud another piece. will takeere bobby them to the casting. >> yeah. >> he doesn't want to take him to the casting. roll tape. >> helen told me. elen told you. >> i hear she is paying you in kisses. was helen who insisted

on that clause. she is awful fierce. would you like to kiss helen? see helen ever wanting to kiss a boy like me. >> no. you would've taken me without payment at all. would you take me as a passenger? >> no. i have no room. >> you have plenty of room. >> that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. you are just prejudice. >> i'm not prejudiced. i kissed a crippled girl one time. a disfigured too. you are not spoiled for pretty

girls. >> don't change the subject on me. >> i thought we closed that subject. >> what do you want? you want? >> i don't know what they want. ,> when you look at this play and you look at the times you it a caseoadway, is that you always come to broadway, come to the stage if someone shows you an interesting role? >> absolutely. i have always thought, stages , i learned, it get better on stage. been, it iss something i take a huge amount from. i hope i keep coming back to it. all the actors i grew up admiring our people who makes

both stage and screen. i hope i can manage to do that. >> you admire michael fassbender. >> i do. making life decisions based on him. but his career of course. >> in terms of his choice of roles. likes in terms of the fact that he is just a fantastic actor who mixes huge commercial movies with indie stuff. there is never a drop-off in mcavoy. just as james a lot of actors. i don't think they ever take the easy way. they always push themselves to do interesting, challenging material. >> did your parents and eerie with this interest? >> probably. i was taken to a lot of theater as a kid. i think i always viewed theater as a part of acting that i would explore if i was

going to be an actor. i viewed it as intrinsic to the nature. be myilm will always first love and home. i did grow up there. it is what i know well. i definitely will help to keep coming back to learn. darlings," you played allen ginsberg. it must be a journey to get inside his head. >> it was particularly inciting to get in the 17-year-old ginsburg's head. i felt like it was less public domain. then all the others. morel felt like there was license because we are playing these before they had become massive. >> to have a film called "what if." >> it is a smart romantic

comedy. character ismy heartbroken and lovesick. he meets a girl at a party. they hit it off. he fancies her immediately. she has a boyfriend. they end up deciding to become friends while he is in denial of the fact that he has fallen in love with her. comedies dispense with the complexities of life because they make the storytelling ethical. in this week cap the richness and complexity. things shouldn't be easy in romantic comedy. >> here is a clip. ♪

>> i'm quietly judging you. >> here it is. did you meet? >> kind of. >> this is my college roommate. this is the first time he's been out. >> how do you feel? he has been hibernating. >> who is the actress? >> zila kazan. a fantastic writer and actress. play a crush on zoe. >> thank you for coming. "the cripple of inishmaan."

back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

>> marion cotillard and james gray are here. they collaborated on a new movie called "the immigrant." it tells the story of a polish woman who arrives at ellis island in the 1920's and is forced into prostitution in order to save her sister. james gray calls it, " my most personal film to date. here is the trailer for "the immigrant." >> welcome to the united states. next? good evening. >> she is my sister. is something wrong? >> she has to be deported. >> no. we never go back. >> you speak english? >> yes. can you help me? please? >> you are a very lucky lady. do you have a place to stay? >> you know somewhere? >> i know a place. i can get her off the island. whether she is cured or not. i know people. it will be difficult and costly,

but it can be done. >> i need to work. >> i can take you to my place of business. ♪ >> god, you are beautiful.

>> don't give up faith. don't give up the hope. the american dream is waiting for you. >> it does not matter what you do. you have a right to be happy. >> i am pleased to have marion cotillard and james gray at this table. welcome. would you say this is your most personal film, it is because of the connected to family? >> it is interesting. i didn't think consciously so much about doing a family history story, when i started to get into it, it is unavoidable. i have a regret actually. my grandparents died when i was 13 years old. when you are 13 years old, i was interested in the clash, and

taking the train, i didn't care about my russian grandparents didn't speak english. so i regret not knowing their history. my father told me all this stuff. all of that wound up in the film. including stuff like, small stuff, like not knowing how to eat a banana. biting into it like it is corn on the cob. the attitude of immigration officials on ellis island. all of this stuff was fodder for a movie. i hadn't seen many movies on the subject. there are very few. you have the opening of "the godfather -- part 2." and that's it. >> and why did you say yes? you have lots of choices these days. >> for him, first of all. i think he is one of the greatest directors.

attracted to great stories. that was a great story. also, it was something that i had never done before. a character, something that i hadn't explored. >> tell me about ava. >> she is a strong woman. she is in a state of need when she comes to the united states. she is someone who is devoted to all. she was a nurse. is fundamental aspect of her personality. she was a nurse, and a nurse is someone who is devoted and dedicated to human beings health . so that was a part of her

personality. the fact that she is devoted to people. and the sister in the story. waxed you were inspired by puccini. eatico in los to tr angeles. comedy bytion, a woody allen. it was an incredible night. i sat there in two years -- oin tears. hollywood is a make these films, where barbara stanwyck or something where the woman is at the center of the melodrama. she said, why don't you do one? you help me raise money to make that thing. that was the inspiration.

puccini's shamelessness about the emotion, the degree to which he never distances you. there is no irony. he says this is my heart, here it is. like it or don't like it. that was the governing principle of the film. it was all over the movie. >> diary of a county priest. >> it is the same principle in a way. that film is very austere. , a lack ofkind of irony. and at session with the honesty of the emotion of the actors. a way, because we live in an ion ironic -- an ironic age. there are great films made in this tradition. i felt that it was interesting to explore, particularly a foreign actor, whose face is so evocative, a silent melodrama. >> and the casting of joaquin

phoenix. >> i've made 500,000 movies with the guy. you look for actors, you look for an actor who can communicate external struggle, internal turmoil. joaquin phoenix, he looks like he is at war with himself. that is a huge thing to ask for an actor. when he gives it to you, he is combustible. anything can happen at any time. if you find an actor like that who was willing to deal with you, you keep casting them. for movies. >> this is a clip in which you you get off at ellis island. >> let's go. you are a lucky lady. you just made it. >> all aboard. there is room in the front.

right here. >> i left my sister here. >> do not worry. do you have a place to stay? >> no. i don't. do you know somewhere? >> i know a place. i can take you there. >> yes. don't go. >> please don't go. [laughter] i will take you there, if you want. >> watching that clip am i film,e i was making this

i became an expert on ellis island and looking at this. i'm starting to see the stakes that we made. >> there is so much there to evoke. ellis island has a persona. >> they have a library on the third floor of the building. you go in there, and there are two guys. ever aboutvery fact american immigration. it is the most remarkable resource. we looked at pictures, all these photographs, and we were talking about this. their faces are so expressive. place open this is a for business as an immigration center. a very short time. you are talking about 40% of the american population today has a direct descendent that came through that island. that is an astounding figure. >> a nation of immigrants.

>> it is a huge part of our history. >> you compared joaquin to apogee now. -- al pacino. onthey wear their hearts their sleeve. the brooding is not an artifice. you can see the anguish. that is important for drama. the most famous line in history, to be or not to be. you don't walk on and leave. it is about a person at war with himself. that is what joaquin is able to do. >> did you meet every day before coming starts? >> we had two weeks of her her soul. rehearsal. i was mesmerized. being a part of the discussion

was great. i was very lucky to be able to attend joaquin phoenix, who is actor, toazing attempt his process, to be a part of it. , before doing a movie like that, having two weeks of .er her soul is precious >> this is real rehearsal. of talking and discussion. those characters are complex. the relationships are complex. >> a lot of discussion of motive, to try to bring, because the whole struggle is how to make the subtext feel there and

never address it directly. that comes through a discussion with the actors. >> hoodoos jeremy renner play? >> he plays a god, he was greeted because -- he plays a god. carusocreated because had given a concert there. one of the facts about the concert was that a juggler and a magician opened for him. i thought, a magician? what is that about? met with aagician terrible end. all this information started to come out about this world around 1920. all of these events. he plays a cousin of walking phoenix. >> take a look at this clip. renneres jeremy performing. >> levitation.

perhaps the most miraculous feat you will ever witness. houdini has never defied gravity in such a wetter -- such a manner. i will try it for your very eyes. there are those that are wary of the possibility. i understand that. i've heard it all before. i have to ask those people, how is it that you found yourself here? at this very moment. america. buy a boat, most likely. because youo believed it could happen? , i believe.entlemen [applause]

>> what can happen if you believe. >> what i was trying to do was to do something very simple. so simple that the subtext could take on more importance. you have two guys and a woman. it is a basic triangle. i didn't want it to be an anthropological exploration. we wanted to make it as accurate as we could. i think we did pull it off to some degree. what is more important to me was the honesty of the emotions. me its very, you said to is like a fable. what does that mean? >> are you doing an impression of me? >> i tried. she did one of me today. that is a little payback. >> i think the first time i read

the script, i don't know how to explain, but to me it was they , like something peer inside of them even if some of them have more darkness. kids in the woods, fighting to survive. surrounded by hope, and beauty. when you see the backgrounds, you can see it is darker than you think it is. >> here are two things you said. the person i will give everything to is the director. the director is everything. formed a bondi that goes deeper than any i've

had with the director. >> yes. onset, it he created , and tow-budget movie do a movie with such a little movie, the way everything worked with joaquin , wejeremy, we are linked have something in common that is super sensitivity, it created a special energy onset. were telling, and the there because of the energy between the four of us

being that sensitive. >> what do you think it is? to create a film where there was no distance between the actor and the character. i don't wantion, about ther say she character. i wanted to be about you. i want to reveal something about you. that we are almost naked in front of the camera. driving the kind of idea behind the film for all of us. now,ay the business works when you have a chance to make a film like this, which is quite rare because the business has changed so radically in the last 20 years. you take advantage of it and you go deep.

you go as deep as you can. >> did your father tell you you would never make it? >> well, my father has a lot of wisdom. he said to me, i grew up in queens, and moviemaking and movie directors was about as far as way as you could imagine from where i grew up. he said, you might want to check out a company called microsoft and work for them. it shows you that he was not so stupid. s love is not movies. is concerned was that i have health insurance. you might want to pursue something safer. >> do you like playing these kinds of movies? than bigcused, rather things? big budgeted? >> my dream when i was a kid, i

wanted to be an actress, to explore. and explore the more i could, and jump from a world to another. like fascinated by actors laurence olivier. from one movie to the other you could not recognize them. travel from one genre to another. it is different. every movie is different. every director is different. every genre is different. that the twon said -- have you ever said that? >> i said it. i would have loved to play her.

i cannot, obviously. it wouldn't be good. but the other, that would require a lot of makeup. i couldn't do that. those are the two heroes of mine. >> a pleasure to see you. congratulations. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪ >> this is "taking stock" for

wednesday, may 20, 2014. i'm pimm fox. today, we have two things. today's theme is the perfect fit. plus, the business surrounding --nd