from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." michael morell is here. director ofeputy the cia from 2010 until one to

13. he was acting director. the battle for iraq continues. fought thensurgents iraqi military for the control of the city or the miles north of the. the united states has moved personnel to iraq to protect the embassy. john kerry indicated that airstrikes were under consideration will stop as was cooperation with iran. i am pleased to have michael morell back on this program. welcome. that's it is good to be with you. >> let me begin with some news today. forces captured a suspected ringleader of the terrorist attack in benghazi. that was over the weekend. one of the perpetrators of the 2012 assault had been apprehended according to u.s. officials. they feared that he was captured on sunday near benghazi american troops. that was after months of

planning. what can you tell us? >> he is believed to be one of the ringleaders. one of the guys who led the attack on that night in benghazi. in getting our hands on him, it is him or for two reasons. we will send a message to everybody else that the mother how long it takes, we will get you. that is message number one. the second reason is that it is him or because we will be able to ask him a lot of the questions that we struggled with. that there was not a lot of preplanning. the intelligence community believes that. now we will find out from him. we have ideas about what motivated him. would not really know what motivated him until we got our hands on one of them will stop now that we have our hands on the ringleader, we will find out what motivated these guys to go

to that diplomatic facility that night. >> that is a big question. what did they do when they got there? >> and how much planning? >> who else was involved? what other groups were involved? to what extent was al qaeda involved? to what extent were other groups involved? >>we want to know all stop was hard for the u.s.? >> it was difficult. we knew he was in benghazi. reporters had spoken to him. in order to capture somebody, you have to know where they're going to be at exactly the right time all stop that is finding in time as a place location and time to be able to get the stop >> you said that the cia has issues as to their motivations. >> with the cia said at the time

was that what we believed motivated these guys was watching what happens at the u.s. embassy in cairo. protesters went over the fence and burned vehicles. they did damage. guyswe believe is that the in benghazi, the extremists in said,zi, saw that and let's go do some damage of our own. a couple weeks later, we added to that. there was another possibility stop here is another possibility. on day before the attack september 10, the leader encouraged libyans to take revenge for the killing of a senior al qaeda of it shall impact is an. that was a couple weeks earlier all stop he said, take revenge. we said, hey, that could be a motivation stop that

encouragement came the day before. we also added, we do not know for sure what the motivation was all stop we will not find out immediately. >> where will he be interrogated? >> i do not know. one possibility would be to interrogate him on a u.s. military ship. that would give some time before you have to read his miranda rights. he could be brought back to the united extract the stop i do not know. those are the options. >> let me turn to iraq. where do you think we are on the ground? what do you know and what do you propose? you are so familiar with the circumstances. >> the isis advances slowed. iraqiere cutting through cities like butter.

fast mosul ande a number of other cities stop they have not gotten closer to baghdad. resistance hase persisted. the resistance has stiffened. better iraqi troops have shown up. melissa groups. they have got into the game. important during word.03, 2006, 2008 the they were largely trained by the iranians. they are encouraging them again. they are providing weapons stop they have join this fight. that will make it more difficult prices to move forward. we are moving into a bit of a stalemate on the ground.

>> those are two kinds of militias we do not like fighting each other stop >> exactly. where are the arabian? -- >> where are the iranians? what are they doing? way to talk best about the iranians is talk about what i see as a possible scenarios going forward. is thest scenario partition of iraq. the end of iraq as a unified state. i fear that if there is no intervention on the part of anyone in iraq went forward, that is what we will end up with. >> kurds, as she is, sunnis in different isis. >> you will have back then in the south you will have the sunnis in western iraq and you will have the kurds in northern iraq.

that is a very bad outcome. >> because? >> you will have sectarian violence. they will be fighting each other. many civilians will die. there will be a lot of blood. it will be a humanitarian crisis. u.s. perceives will take another hit. we were going to create this in a rock. we end up with a divided iraq. the sunnis are not just the sunnis. this is essentially al qaeda. area as ause that safe haven from which to attack western europe. from which to attack the homeland. kurds in a very interesting position.

decide, do we to just stay as part of this iraq? or do we declare our independence? if they declare their independence, the kurds in turkey and the kurds in syria and the kurds in iran would want to join them. >> is that a bad thing? >> it is a very bad thing. the turks would not allow it. you would have a war in the north. of divisiond part in iraq is that he could spill over to the rest of the region. these are all long lines drawn on a map. there's not a lot of meaning to them. the division of one part of the middle east that was drawn by it intoish really puts perspective. that is a very bad outcome.

the second outcome, the second possible outcome, which would happen with significant iranian thervention, is what i call iraq holds together under a shia dictatorship. what happens is that the iranians come in big like they are in syria, rocks bigger. -- perhaps bigger. it is not just the militia that they have trained. it might actually be iranian troops. they defeat isis pretty quickly. they subjugate the sunnis. in essence, what happens is that you have an iraq that you had under saddam hussain, but the leader is a shia. that is bad news for the united states. it gets rid of isis.

that is bad news for the united states because it is a big victory for iran. they would have a puppet state. >> would they keep how lucky if they did that? >> as long as he did what they wanted him to do. maliki wednesday because he would invite them in -- would stay because he would invite them in. where there is essentially a cold war going on between iran on one hand and a moderate sunni states on the other -- >> saudi arabia and others. >> this would be a big victory. the battle is for influence and privacy. absolutely. the third outcome is the best outcome. reemerges under a new democracy. case, all of the sides

come together, the united states, the moderate sunnis eight, and iran, they come together and they put pressure on various pieces inside of a rock to put together a new governing coalition. it would include all of the players and it would agree upon how they would go after al qaeda. what you would have is bringing the moderate sunnis back into the fold inside iraq and getting those sunnis to agree that they would take on al qaeda just the way they did in the 2000 -- the awakening. happen, there has to be a lot of pressure on all sides. malki have to go. he has the trust among the sunnis. he would have to be replaced a new leader.

>> this would be the one that the united states would support? when the president talks about people losing, this is what he hopes. >> when they talk about the iranians, they are talking about number three. >> why should the irani and students? >> that is the problem. they must get malki to step down stop they must find a shia leader who can do the right thing in terms of bringing the sunnis and. they have to get the trust of the sunnis. they have to buy in after they have been burned in this process. the iranians have to buy it. the best outcome for the iranians is number two. probabilitiesbout associated with this, but the highest probability on one. that is breakup.

>> the best solution is the least likely. >> that is the way that an intelligence officer with think about it. when i think about where we are here, there were things i think about. not the decision to go into iraq in the first place. .hat is defensible enough i will leave it to historians to figure out. the first mistake that was made was [inaudible] it was in early 2003. the coalition provisional that any's order member of the baath party had to be removed from government. >> rather than just those of the top. >> correct. ofer number two was that all

those iraqi institutions that were close to the back ernie had to be just added. there went -- had to be disbanded. it created a vacuum. whichated a vacuum in sunni insurgents filled and al qaeda interrupted. that was mistake number one. that was driven by the department of defense. the result of opposition from the state department and other parts of government but it was driven by the department of defense. >> everyone seems to acknowledge that now. >> it seems to be pretty well planned. before i get back to what will left, it seemse like a rock was not high up on our priorities. clearly there was serious as other things.

were -- the iraqi government was eliminating any sunni presence. >> that rings me to my third reason why we are where we are. you've captured it very nicely. first and the second overall, after the de- baathication was her inability to get an agreement in 2011. having u.s. forces on the ground did two things. malki'sestraining authority. groundorces on the provided military capabilities. intelligence, air power, and logistics. when we left in 2011, we left

the military that did not have the capability to take it on. malki whomallet he -- wants to show that he was a sovereign. he did not want to deal with the united states or except for help. we left a malki who is becoming more authoritarian. to push theg steps sunnis away. he was creating tremendous resentment. out of senior government positions. he tried to arrest a number of very senior officials in his own government. in sunnie protests areas of iraq against those things. he crushed them. he created a tremendous amount of resentment. when isis returned, they were

welcomed. they were embraced. people were so frustrated of malki. his behavior is the third factor here. >> do you think the sunnis who joined up thought that they could control isis? you would not think they share the same objective. >> they are anti-malki. enemy of my enemy. arefourth factor for why we where we are is syria. isis is a descendent of al qaeda. already at all tested in a rock. -- battle tested in iraq. he became more battle tested in syria. their numbers grew. most of the foreign fighters who come into serious to fight al qaeda ended up devices.

their numbers have grown as a result of syria. isis has gotten its hands on additional funding. additional weapons. who -- from? >> from those who support the jihad. they believe in bin laden's message. they believe in the fight and they send checks. >> is this in places like saudi arabia? >> rich gulf arabs who do not think about the world the right way. >> is it religious? >> it is religious and ideological. walking from people outside a mosque and putting their money into a basket. >> tell us about the leader of isis. >> we do not know much about him. there are some not so great pictures of him. he is allusive. , notactices high quality

extraordinary, but hi all the security. >> what does that mean? ways and isicate in not somebody find his location. it does not show up on tv. message or audio, rather than video. >> but he and they are laying out what their plan is and what they want to do. they want to create a new state. some has been mistranslation of their name. most of the time you hear it as the islamic state of iraq and syria. the translation is actually the islamic state of a rock and greater syria. arabs includeso

not only syria but all of the look on bash labonte -- levant. >> where is that? back down into lebanon and parts of syria and parts of israel. that isis has two goals. aspect and regional the other is to use that regional aspects to attack the west. those are the goals. >> like 9/11 attacks? >> absolutely. set of the most serious circumstances we have seen in the middle east since the 1950's. >> wow. between the arab neighbors of israel. therefore, what are the options?

think -- your goal is number three. >> we have to go all the way for number three. means diplomatic negotiations at the highest levels. and on pressure on malki the kurds. us, but from the moderate gulf states that have been hands off. they do not like malki. they will have to get over that. they will have to get over the fact that the shia have been in charge. they will have to deal with the new iraq. >> isis has to get rid of them as well. >> that is their incentive. it is not just diplomatic in my mind. there is a military play here.

providing assistance to the iraqi military whether it is intelligence, equipment, or airstrikes or even putting guys on the ground in small numbers to help the iraqis make the right strategic decisions. that would reinforce the diplomatic piece of number three. it makesited states -- it more difficult for the iranians to come in. that based onrgue the experience of what you have said, you would urge the president -- i will go through the list. you would urge them to put forces in to train the iraqis. some boots on the ground. >> i would say advising. >> will kinds of weapons would you get them? >> whatever they need. if they needed air support, you would do that? >> when i think about

airstrikes, i think about all that. >> is not an easy airstrike. you have to be precise return the population against you to stop >> i have said that. if you are going to do airstrikes, you have to have intelligence. in order to be precise, you have to know exactly what you are shooting up. you have to make sure there are no civilians around. you cannot do airstrikes until you get that right. they go together. you are going to turn the population against us. you are going to increase the focus that isis will put on us. you have to do it right. it is not easy. i think some military play is part of getting it right. today, i cannot pronounce his name, but the

general. have you ever met him? >> i have not. he is the second most powerful person in iran. he reports directly to the supreme leader. he has a chain of command between him and the supreme leader. he does not go through. the supreme leader treats him like a son. they are totally in sync in terms of what they see as long-term interest. he essentially runs their special forces. their covert action element. they are heavily engaged in syria. they are heavily engaged with hezbollah. he is taken two trips to iraq in the last two weeks. he is trying to find out to what extent iran can help. >> before that, he went to damascus.

>> he spent a lot of time there. himhat is interesting about is that he was open to a better relationship with the united. there have been conversations taking place. they reported that conversation as soon as the speech calling them the axis of evil happened, he set it down. he felt like he had been betrayed. that sulat believe money had any interest in a better relationship with the united states. >> he only looked at that as a way for the iranians to treat their objective? >> he understands that their fundamental objective, which is --er and influence, will be we will try to constrain it.

we will try to stop it. it comes at our expense stop >> you are right. you believe that? >> yes. suppose you are in baghdad now. and we had a conversation. what would you try to change? what conversation would you want to have? >> i would want to have a conversation, the same kind of conversation that i have with all of my colleagues. you want to have a conversation where you find common ground. you find a national security issue. you can agree on it. todayf the matter is that al qaeda and syria and al qaeda helpfulis seen as because they are fighting the opposition. over the long-term, iran has no

interest in al qaeda. they know that if al qaeda grow stronger in the region, eventually they will come after them. because? >> it is shia sunni, and it is arab. the always in syria, he can do what? >> if he wins in syria, is the civil war wins, in a matter of months, he will dismantle al qaeda. >> a matter of months? >> ruthlessly. >> how attractive is that to us? considering that he has been a bad person. us attractive is that to this moment in history? >> this raises some interesting ways of thinking about syria. there is a number of wars going on in syria.

not just one. each of them white in a slightly different direction in terms of what policy should be. i will not go through all five, but one of them is a proxy war between the multiroom -- moderate gulf states and iran for influence. it is a proxy war in area stop the moderate arab states have their proxy. the moderate opposition is inferior. iran has its proxy in syria. assad and the shia militia are fighting over future influence in the middle east. who should we support not fight? easy. the saudi arabia's and the moderate gulf states. war, there's a war staten the secular arab and al qaeda. the secular arab state is assad. he's fighting al qaeda. who should we support in that were?

that is one of the reasons that this is so difficult. wins, weem is if assad fixed the al qaeda problem, but iran is the big winner. >> exactly. bigger problems. >> but if assad loses -- >> hezbollah and iran are the big winners. >> correct. if assad loses, we have this mess in syria. who knows? we have this mess in syria. it may break apart. al qaeda has a safe haven. the losers are ron and hezbollah , we are also big losers. there is a potential for spill over. a safe haven for al qaeda. >> levy put this into the middle of the table. this is not our problem. it is too complicated. we cannot make this work. madever mistakes have been

, they have been made. you guys fight it out. >> i would say two things to that. one is that we -- one of our sitsallies on the planet in the middle of this mess, israel. that is a strategic interest for the united they and the political interest. 70% to 80% of the american public supports israel. that is a high percentage of the american population that believes our relationship with israel should be stronger. we have to worry about israel. the second is the spare capacity in the oil market is still in the middle east. to the extent that you have instability in the middle east, you can drive up oil prices significantly stop >> what has been happening has been driving up oil prices already stop >> that is the reason why we can't say that it your problem, deal with it. we want toust that

leave it to you because you have to figure it out. it is beyond that. you have to ask yourself, can we make a difference? if number three does not work, which is the least likely to work, we are almost there. >> in option three, not only do you build this coalition government of all three parties, but you also give more economy to -- autonomy to the parts of a rock. that is with the sunnis and the kurds want. there's been a big debate all along in washington about whether that is a good thing or that thing. in order to hold iraq together, you may need to give more autonomy to the region. happencision-making may in the region. that may be a requirement. >> where's russia in this? they support the syrians. their relationship with the iranians.

>> russia in relationship to syria has three interest. they want the u.s. to just fail. that would be good. it is their only military base outside of russia. three is that putin is thinking about that and the war against al qaeda. assad versus al qaeda. he does not want al qaeda on his consonant. he doesn't like terrorism. he does not want his people going up and causing more problems. those are his interest. how was he thinking about iraq? i do not know. i have not seen any statements he has made. i think that his focus on a rock that iraq will be similar to serial. he wants to make the u.s. look, but not allow terrorists to get a foothold.

that is what he will be thinking about. is,y final question today is it possible that there is a grand bargain with the irradiance were we agreed to help them and they will do something on nuclear? so we can solve that problem? >> no, i do not think so. >> there is no wildcard? >> no, for two reasons. --l there are certainly while there certainly interested in discussing that, the diplomatic solution, there is no interest at all in letting the iranians -- the iranian military, go on the ground in a big way. >> is there a possibility of change in toronto -- tehran? the supreme leader makes all the decisions. >> i believe that rouhani is --

[inaudible] who the president is does not matter to the national security policies. what matters is the supreme leader. as long as we have a supreme leader, we will have the kind of policies that we have enough of iran. it is important terrorism and the pursuit -- support of terrorism and the pursuit of that. the desire to be a hegemonic pair in the middle east. >> it is not easy. >> it is not easy. >> thank you. bikes are. good to be with you. >> back in a moment. ♪

♪ julia louis-dreyfus is here. rolling stone calls her the first lady of comedy. for nine years she made us laugh as the unforgettable elaine bennis and "seinfeld." now she stars as selena myers on "the."

she has one several emmys for that role. she has also produced a documentary about her art collecting father. he owns up to 3000 works of art and is donating many of them to a nonprofit in new york. i am pleased to have julia louis-dreyfus back at this table. >> thank you very much. >> was selena myers? whohe is a political animal has been too long inside beltway. she is someone who is desperate for power. completely frustrated and boarded by power. she has lost her moral center. >> just like people in washington and hollywood. > the parallels --

>> what are the parallels? >> i think the parallels are that you constantly have to be working to stay alive. you have to stay crucial. you are selling yourself. you are selling a brand. you are selling an image of your self. hopefully, there is more depth to it than that. but we are talking about it in -- >> broad strokes. >> exactly. [laughter] >> there's this. it was often said that people in washington love people in hollywood. >> i think that is true. >> they love each other. >> there is the ego thing. there's a lot of adulation. >> there is a bubble aspect to both universes that israel. somebody -- i feel bad

for her. she a terrible person in many ways. but i understand why she is frustrated and angry and narcissistic. >> when you heard about the script, you wanted the world. you said to everybody, "this is me." >> there was not even a script. as i heard content it was an unhappy vice president. i knew i was in. i had to have his job. >> what was it about that description that made you in? >> what is not to love? she is vice president, not president. -- with allthere is due respect, there is a concept there. that conflict there. there is a problem. who wants to be number two? if you're running a race, do you want to come in second? no, you don't. she is not happy about it.

it sounds very right to me for comedy. >> you have a certain familiarity of washington. you grew up between washington and new york. >> i did. but he could've been a politician. >> never. >> if you were a comedian and actress. >> the only thing i could have been, but a somebody could give me money to buy things for myself -- is that job available? other than that, i have no idea. glad they give money to you and they say, go have a good time. >> you maybe right choice. i have no other skills. >> you happen to do the right thing for you. but i think so. >> you have a great marriage? >> it is pretty great. a beautiful marriage. i have a lovely husband. i am lucky. >> you work together?

>> yes, we work together. what is nice is that we have known each other a long time. we have a similar sensibility and accents. most recently, we made this documentary. >> about your father? >> "generosity of my. -- i." >> you can watch it for free. it is about my father. he has been in our tractor for 15 years. he has amassed a huge collection. he made a decision to set it up as an endowment to benefit the harlem children's zone. the idea is that it is a long-term endowment. sold andr pieces are they will go to the harlem children's center.

it is a long-term gift. it is an unusual one because it is are transforming into education. we did this documentary about it. we spoke to many of the artists who are represented in the collection. and later my father. it was a great opportunity to get to know certain things about my dad. he wrote an e-mail. listen to what he said. it is very sweet. i wanted to relay a thought your father. yesterday he was talking about how strongly he felt about our. he said, it is what he would be doing if he didn't have the chops. although it seems true that the artist works alone, that is not the case. when your father started collecting i was on the verge of burnout. relative nobody. the fact that he wanted the art

was an enormous vote of confidence. i would not be where i am without william. i respect his opinion and his eyes. thes a true to trent in complete sense of the word. he is an integral part of the process. i think that this week. >> he is a very serious artist. it is sweet of him to take the time to say all that. >> yeah. >> i think that his work is wonderful. >> what did you learn about your dad? >> i learned that my father is much more -- i did not understand the depth of his emotional investment. the energy that he put into the

artists whose work he collected. life in they big art world. i was not from layer with it. >> use your father. >> he is a private guy. a lot of this art was not our house. art, but iall this did not know the extent of the relationship that he had with these people. that was a part of it. it is very exhilarating to him about why he was making this yet. that was nice to touch. iannucci said that she is not just a natural comedic performer, she is a natural comedic brain. what does that mean? >> i don't know. what does he mean? intellectual --

some kind of smart sensibility. >> i have been doing it a long time. picking thingsoye apart comedically and mining stock within the scene. maybe that is what he means. his material is so brilliant. it is easy to do. when material is working on the page, it is that much easier to find more to add to it. not because it needs it, but to help and to make it -- the material is so rich that he creates not it is kind of frankly, it is a breeze. the material is so good. >> writing makes your work easier? i guess it does. crises that you will have a natural comedic brain. if i had known you as a teenager, what i have seen that? read that way then?

>> yes. probably. >> you are destined to be a comedic person? >> i always wanted to act. i never thought, "i am going to get into comedy." i have never done standup. these jobs as i've gotten in my life have mainly been comedic. not everything, but ever -- many things. it is a happy place for me to work, but i enjoy doing drama as well. i really do. >> was l.a. a natural home for you? >> yes, totally. because larry david who created the show with jerry, we know -- knew each other from snl. he and i were both miserable at snl. >> because? >> because it was not a good time at snl. it was dog eat dog.

he was notus -- getting any material on the air. i was not getting on the air. just little art. we were miserable together. we enjoy being miserable together. then he got to show nbc and all of a sudden, it was this feeling like the people who were running felt," where the nuts running the asylum. i cannot believe we were getting away with this. that was what it felt like. >> that want to talk about these other projects. "seinfeld."m snl to you made a film of james gandolfini. >> "enough said." >> it was released after he died. >> yes it was. it was written and directed by nicole holocene or -- ho lofcener. i have had a lot of good gates

lately. , he was here to enjoy the results of his work. it was a wonderful thing to be working with him on that phone. i was very proud of how it came out. >> returning to drama for you. >> there were comedic elements of it, but ultimately it was more of a drama. >> is no different from television for you? be -- "vewep"ld is almost like making a movie. you do not have an audience. like on seinfeld we had a laugh track. that was the audience. that is a delicious experience. to have an audience. now that i've been doing it for a while, i get used to doing the single camera thing. i've gotten used to that. picture parise

about? i it was a short film that made my husband brought halt. that brought halt. -- brad hall. >> she goes off to college and she has a plan for her husband. they are going to go off to paris together and reinvent their lives. things do not work out the way they should stop that was a short film. terms thattwist in you do not see coming. here is a clip -- >> here's a clip. ♪

>> you are not just a francophile. you are somewhat french. >> yes, my father was born in france. that part of my family is very french. my father is an american citizen and he has lived here for many years. >> you go back and forth a lot? >> not as often as i would like to. >> we don't go back to paris as much as we would like to? >> things keep getting back in the way. there's plenty of life ahead. it you would like to do that you've not yet done? in terms of acting or comedy? >> i guess i would like to --

>> you have some television. >> i think i would like to keep it up. [laughter] >> that is a good thing. >> i like working. i love collaborating with people who i respect tremendously. i would like to keep doing that. i would not mind dipping my toe with a little more in the dramatic material area. it was a thrill for me to do that. i would not mind doing more that. it is something different. >> are you thrilled about the renewal of "veep," for the next season? >> this vice president became president at the end of season three. we have a new landscape and stage starting in season four.

>> what does she want to be now? >> exactly. what did she want to be? she ispresident, but also running for president at the same time. she has to try to stay alive. nothing comes easy for her. she gets in her own way. -- is trying to figure out we have not shot at yet, but we will start again shortly. she has to figure out a way to stay alive in the position she has always wanted. and i mean, stay alive politically. i am thinking politically. >> we have this quick before we go. this is you at the correspondence in her. [phone rings]

>> hello? >> selena, what are you doing? >> you want to pick me up? honks] >> what the hell are you doing? >> come on. >> yellow? seriously? >> get in the car. >> you and joe. he is good. >> fantastic. >> inc. you again. >> thank you for having me back. ♪

>> this is "taking stock" for wednesday, june 18, 2014. i'm pimm fox. today's theme is revelations. general motors revelations brought mario mara -- mary barra back to capitol hill today. plus, amazon.com chief executive jeff bezos revealed the company's fire phone. we will talk about the companies jumped into the smartphone market. will it make money echo we will find out.