>> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> good evening. i am filling in for charlie rose who is on assignment. we begin with the escalating crisis in the middle east as the

volley of rocket fire between israel and hamas intensifies, israeli prime minister bibi netanyahu said the cease-fire is not even under consideration. thomas is saying pretty much the same. the palestinian health ministry as saying over 70 people have been killed, most of them civilians. rocket fire is reaching deeper into israel although no israeli casualties have been reported as of this taping. we now turn to the abc correspondent who is in gaza. where's the sense where you are, is there a feeling that we are seeing the beginning of an all-out war between the israelis and palestinians? >> it certainly feels like we are on the edge of it. there is this course of the sounds of war whether it is the missiles landing or artillery coming in from offshore or the outgoing rocket fire. this does feel like a place under siege but life has not ground to a halt. people are still out in the

streets. there is less hustle and bustle and fewer people out. i was talking to some friend to say in tel aviv people are still out surfing, they're on the beach in the cafés but you have the sirens going off all the time across israel. people looking for cover and rockets incoming that are being intercepted by the iron dome in the skies above. the secretary-general of the yuan said this region is on a knife's edge and it certainly does feel like that. it feels like it is about to get worse before it gets better. >> there is a sense of déjà vu here. when you have those attacks the israelihamas, response went on for about eight days. how is this different? >> this feels a lot more intense. benjaminprime minister netanyahu and the military talking about the prospect of a ground incursion. it is shaping up to look that

way. i was talking to a military analyst a short time ago who thinks there will be a limited incursion. you have three brigades of israeli troops on the border and a fourth that will comment by the weekend and by 2012 there brigades that did carry out an invasion. it made the situation a lot luckier. -- luckier. -- bloodier. potentiallyoking at the reoccupation of the gaza strip? >> bit -- that is something they are trying to avoid. they are extremely lucky -- trying to come in here. this is something they are considering because they do want to stop this rocket fire. there is no sign of a cease-fire inside. to stop thation

rocket fire may be to come in here with ground troops. >> the nightmare scenario is you would have rocket fire landing at the airport in tel aviv. is there any indication that hamas which has much more rocket power than they did in 2012, that they have the capability to hit that airport and what would happen if they did. >> it would cripple israel. if flights are so going in and out, if you were able to stop flights and ground that to a halt, israelis have limited options in terms of getting out of israel. it would make israel more of an island.

that is a lot more impressive and distractive and powerful. we have seen rockets flying out of here going 100 miles north to and they have unveiled rockets they have been using before. if anything these are rockets that we believe are designed by the iranians. they have a much longer range. in 2012 we saw a rockets being jerusalem.l aviv and they are going a lot further and with the unveiling of this new arsenal they can hit almost every square inch in israel. >> you are on the ground in gaza city. what is your sense talking to people, tacking to palestinians, obviously there is anger toward the israelis. is there not support for what hamas is doing and what is the endgame, what are they trying to achieve with these rocket attacks? >> there is a huge amount of

outrage. the majority of people killed are civilians, noncombatants, not militants. a lot of them are women and children. when you drive around and you see these houses that have been blown apart and you have these massive craters, people have lost their livelihoods. they are not turning around and saying we to stop firing rockets. hamas is a difficult situation. they're not nearly as powerful as they once were. their financial base has been eroded. they no longer have strong relationships so they have been painted into a corner and one of the things they have tried to do is establish a relationship with fatah, the other palestinian party to create a unified government. effectively over the course of the past few weeks with israel's operation in the west inc. following the kidnapping of

those three israeli teens, that has been dismantled. they have been weakened and during that operation they have re-arrested more than 50 hamas leaders that have been released as part of that deal from a couple of years ago. the main demand of hamas is not only that israel stop its strikes on the gaza strip are they releases prisoners and allow the palestinians to create a unified government. us.hank you for joining please stay safe and thank you for your report. we will see you on abc news. >> thank you. >> joining me now are two distinguished guests, vice admiral bob howard is the former deputy commander of centcom. he has demanded -- commanded troops in afghanistan and iraq. admiral howard graduated high school in tehran and is fluent

in farsi and is also an abc news contributor. john mclachlan is the former director of intelligence at the cia and serves on the advisory board and is a distinguished atctitioner in residence johns hopkins university. i'm pleased to have both of them on this program. you have written two columns over the past few weeks that are truly when you add them up quite frightening. the first you say that iraq is potentially going to cease to exist as we knew it. it was created in 1920 and the redrawing of those orders could result in a middle east at risk of a full-scale regional war and in the second column you talking bout the echoes from 2014 and 1914, the beginning of world war i. >> this is probably the most complicated and dangerous time that i have seen in that part of the world for all the reasons i

mentioned in this columns. i think one of the problems we in the areaeveryone is linked to someone else so if you look at iraq, the kurds in the north have rather and in iran, syria, turkey. theou look at isys -- isis, group that is rampaging through iraq and is seeking to consolidate a territory bounded by the tigris and euphrates through serious you have a group that is linked to sunnis throughout the middle east. iraqhe governing group in in baghdad, you have a group that is linked to iran and to shia throughout the region. conflict spills out beyond

its borders very easily. i say that there are parallels with 1914i am not saying that we are on the verge of a world war. we are on theink verge of is a situation where conflict is going to be very and hard for national decision-makers to make choices. we were talking a few minutes ago, if you look at the extremist group that is rampaging in iraq now, on the one hand they are opposing assad in syria. we oppose assad in syria. right away and making decisions about opposing assad or that american decision maker has a difficult choice. the only sensible way is to oppose them both but that is hard to do the same time.

you can look at the government in baghdad. we are allying ourselves with iran. sense for that is fine. forakes it more difficult american decision-makers to make crisp, clear decisions about what to do next. as someone who is looking in from the outside that they are having trouble deciding. >> there was a sense that we were on the verge of u.s. airstrikes against isis. does feel like paralysis. it is difficult for the u.s. government at that level to deal two or three or

four crises at a time. the problem is there our fires burning everywhere. you have the middle east most obviously. you have serious problems with russia. you look at the far east, i could make the case that what we see going on in the south china sea and the east china sea might be the most dangerous place in the world for a series of reasons. world nowut at the where you cannot exactly work on two or three crises and figure out, but the others aside for while. they are all burning at the same time and it is hard for the u.s. government to organize itself and deploy forces to do with all those things simultaneously. we are not used to doing that. >> you were deeply involved in the fight against al qaeda in iraq which is the group that we isis.eing reemerging, regional -- a group

with regional ambitions that wants to set up its caliphate or is this a group that some suggest may be more of a threat -- bin laden's al qaeda was? >> the al qaeda that we went after in 2001 when we went into afghanistan and iraq is different than what we're seeing today. the core element as the secretary of defense said is we had somewhat evaded them at the strategic level. and yet the franchises alive and well. if not growing. part of that is because these populations on -- in iraq and syria where they cannot depend and rely on a central government to secure them and provide for them have to turn to these other through intimidation or the ability to provide security or resources appeals to them and that is the broader issue we

will see across the region. i would like to go back to something john talked about earlier. the dilemma this administration faces and this rapidly changing series of events and what it means to our national security concerns. last year we were seriously considering striking assad in retaliation for his use of chemical and biological weapons and to prevent the further use. >> we thought we were 24 hours out. >> that was our national security concern. we did not take that and now look at the situation. aside may be the better option than these extremist groups that pose an existential threat to the nations that border so if your strategy was previously to contain that problem now that it's billed over to iraq. iraq.spilled over to >> is the threat assad or isis?

one thatnnot discern is bigger than the other. you have to start with isis. isis is a big threat. a couple of things that is different about this phenomenon and we have seen the past. they have succeeded so far in something that al qaeda never succeeded in and that is grabbing territory and holding it. we do not know a lot about what they are doing inside of that territory. there are some indications they have learned from the past that you cannot simply brutalized population -- realized the population and impose sharia law without providing public services. they have begun to do that. everything from trash collection to postal services in some areas. what is shaping up here is a terror state in the heart of the middle east. going back to something i wrote with regard to 2014 versus 1914,

we are not anticipating a world war but at the same time, all the major powers have serious interest here. the u.s. i do not think in the is can tolerate what isis turning into. that raises the question, how do you combat it, with bases, d capture operations, how do you do it question mark how do you combat this terrorist group which is holding territory and which has said that it aspires to attack the united states ultimately? the larger threat in the middle east is this possibility of a terror state taking shape. exactly poised as david ignatius said the other day. it was born with a so that -- a suicide pill in its mouth.

someone will destroy or will self destroyed. so far that is not happening. sensitive to the word terrorist and clearly defining what the problem is. these are violent radical islamists and they have controlled territory before. they controlled afghanistan and their partnerships before 9/11, after 9/11 we realized they had controlled than influenced -- an influenced area info tab. country'sation or acting unilaterally is really able to influence those areas without a partnership and support from us. >> you were involved in the fight against al qaeda in iraq our kauaifort against -- [inaudible]

anydo you do it now without personnel besides a couple hundred trainers on the ground? >> we developed capacity, capability, tools to do that. we never had before and we can mentioned the fusion of intelligence, a collection of large amounts of data. drones, other techniques and procedures that allowed us to get after this but the issue is access. how did you bring that to bear and to do that you need to control not only the land but the airspace in iraq before we turned over sovereignty. we had that access. and afghanistan we had that access. we do not have that same access now and we never had that access in syria. until you have that partnership honoring the sovereignty of those nations and those nations

want your assistance, you're not going to have that access. access is the critical component. is working hard to consolidate and advance its gains in syria. things have stalled a bit in iraq so they are pushing into serious with the effect of their success in iraq ringing new recruits in syria. they are taking over the largest oil facility. let's assume this continues. at some point they u.s. has to say how do we get at this? >> one area that will be threatened by them is the kurdish area which i expect now they have raised the issue of a referendum on independence. i can imagine they will have such a referendum and they will be independent or quasi-dependent. maybe at some point they will be seeking things from the u.s. to defend themselves, weapons, intelligence, and so forth. maybe will he time -- it will be

time to request bases in kurdistan to attack isis. i do not see how you attack isis unless you have close in access. there is jordan but jordan has its problems. you are out in iraq except with a small group of advisers. you're not going into iran. saudi arabia is not postured to do that. at some point you have to have close access to go after this group unless somehow explicable y theyinexplicabl [indiscernible] bloomberg.co>> will there be agh happens, thenhat what? >> what i have always expected to happen here and we will see that when we got close to july 20 we will be close enough to an agreement to not want to give

up. they would the request as numbers ofextend for months, another six months. i would not be surprised if that happens. the core issue is this. it genuinely wants to move into a more productive situation. he lives in a system where there are a lot of constraints starting with the supreme leader. he is on a short leash. he is walking a tightrope here to get an agreement. said thepreme leader other day, they want more capacity to enrich uranium and so far this agreement -- than t his agreement is permitting them so far.

even if it isn't a low level. level.t a low of negotiating a pretty good. is concerned with the sanctions and it highlights how effective that is to bring them to the bargaining table. at the end of the day there is negotiations that will be predicated on their path looking at her way get relief from the sanctions. >> you graduated from the american school in terror and in 1974. >> i did. >> you have been in that embassy. >> graduated from high school in downtown tehran. >> do you think you can walk [indiscernible]

they are hopeful that something will come from this. they believe rahani is a heferent breed of cat and wants to prove that he can look router as well. >> getting an agreement is important. that would be a revolutionary development in relations with iran. it would not change everything else that we object to in iran's behavior. there is support for has blogged and terrorism but it would be an opening wedge to a better relationship with a country that is, along with israel, only one of two countries in that part of the world that actually exert sovereign control over their territory. >> are we back to saying what can we do to prevent them from getting a bomb or a timeline for

intentional israeli airstrikes or american airstrikes? >> we're back to all of that. one of the complexities is we entered into this negotiation that has strained our relationships with saudi arabia and israel, both of whom are skeptical about iran's intentions, motives, and plans. if we get this agreement than it plays back into those relationships as well in ways that will change them. >> it is important to remember, iran has processed in touch -- enough enriched material to make a bomb. but thee fuel rods fact they have that capacity is a problem so we will have to find a solution to ensure that they do not meet that objective is part of the negotiations. we cannot live with them having

that capability. ask you about afghanistan. we seem to be in a situation where we could be falling apart there is well. we have the presidential election and the runoff and there is the dispute over what happened, whether or not there was widespread fraud. >> at some point there will be fraud in any election there. the world community has to say it is over, it is settled, there has to be a president. if they do not settle this will happen here as international assistance to afghanistan will not be sustained. >> the majority of the budget -- the country will lapse back into the kind of warlordism and openness to terrorism and taliban searching that we have seen in the past or it a lot is

at stake here and we need to get this bilateral security not aent or we will see perfect parallel but a deterioration that will mirror to some degree what we are seeing in iraq. >> what do you make of this? comrades die in afghanistan and iraq. you have a situation where both countries seem to be at risk of giving back everything that was gained. >> i would not characterize it. i would say both countries have evolved. given the opportunities that our conflicts and what we did in those nations, it will be up to those people to realize the potential. had a meeting with a dell of dollar -- abdullah abdullah. he was concerned about the bilateral support.

your country is asking me to sign this bilateral support agreement but your president announced everyone is leaving in two years and the agreement was 10. the good point is we made a commitment for 9800 troops for the next two years, thereby setting the conditions for the contributing nations who made the commitments and tokyo and chicago to provide those funds for security and for economic development. having that force is to ensure and guarantee that development can conquer rests with both those candidates. they both realize how important it is for the long-term future of afghanistan so i agree with john. let's see how this plays out but with of those candidates realize how important this is. get optimistic we will resolution or some agreement that will not split the country and we can move forward. >> what i am hearing out of the white house is a threat that if

they cannot come to an agreement, resolve this dispute over the election, that the u.s. not only pulls up militarily but the financial support for that government. can we allow afghanistan to default to back where it was? >> i hope you're hearing exactly that. the threat. they have to come to an agreement that it would be disastrous if it played out in that way and we did follow through on such a threat. we have to be -- one of the problems is the u.s. has to be deeply involved in all of these areas. trying to influence them and we are at a moment in time where our influence is at a low ebb in that part of the world. >> why is that? >> a lot of reasons. >> is it fatigued from the war, popular support is not there?

>> we look at surveys of the american public, there is fatigue and when you look at our policy there was -- it was a mistake to make a threat to syria and not follow through on it. even though one can argue that there were benefits from the reduction of chemical weapons. the effort to pour so much effort into the middle east peace process while all the other fires are burning puzzled a lot of people in the region. a lot of things like that have led to a moment when i think the carrying this not article out that it once did in that part of the world. again withdraw from iraq, if you're not present, virtual presence is no presence. >> would this happen if we had struck an agreement to leave iraqd that small force in to 5000 or 6000 that was being alked about? what we have seen

isisuld we have seen taking over? >> the chances would have been diminished. we said earlier this is very complex. the caveat is even had we still beyria would raging and much of what we see happening in iraq is a combination of two things. the fact that we are not there advising, insisting, striking, and the fact that syria has been ,aging in a way that has eroded erase the border between iraq and syria so that that has simply spilled over into iraq. combine that with the policies of government in baghdad, toupees sunnisees militias who were opposing extremists in and bar province r province who sought to

arrest the sunni finance minister. all those together caused what we are seeing in iraq now but with the chances be diminished if we were still there? yes, i believe it would. >> are you more pessimistic when it comes to iraq question mark >> the threats are greater as well. that is a more existential threat to the neighboring countries. far beyond the threats that -- we have to remember our goal was to create a sovereign nation and government. we met those objectives so this didn'tn is the iraq he -- decision and not central government. i think we are a different time now where we are looking at that issue of what assistance they want, what are we willing to provide. quickly practically begged for airstrikes. >> you cannot do airstrikes without the broader mechanisms

and capabilities that make them effective. this was the same issues when we looked at strikes into syria. if you strike an airfield, what does that accomplish in and of itself? this is much more difficult. your entities and people within a mixed population is a much more challenging and difficult situation where it is civilian casualties, that will cause them to be against the government. much more precise intelligence. whole movement becomes an existential threat. we see the impact on lebanon and jordan. that has a broader ramifications beyond their borders as well. >> vape resident has authorized forces --l operations

the president has authorized 300 special operations forces. >> they can help mentor and guide that fusion of intelligence and operations. forces more productive and capable. we have become the best joint .orce that has ever existed >> i wanted to ask you as the former deputy director of the cia about the way this news out of germany where the cia station chief has been thrown out of the country by the german government. it for a station chief in an allied country to be expelled? >> a couple of whites. this sort of thing happens from time to time in the world of espionage. unusual.not strikingly it has happened before. second, i am sure we will get through this. germany and the u.s. are about

as close when it comes to allies -- ou can get and >> this is pretty serious. >> it always seemed serious in the moment. we have gotten through this heard of thing before. we share too many interest to let this be a permanent obstacle to our engagement. why do countries do this? on ourdo we have to spy allies? >> why do they spy on us? do not shareallies every single interest that you have. of nature in the international system. and they will tell you most of what you need to know but there may be some things they do not tell you that you would need to know in order to formulate your policy as wisely as you can. recall when the first controversy with germany flared.

it was not long a bride who said when i was you and ambassador the french are monitoring me. i is the sort of thing that gets out into the public arena it becomes a big controversy. it is incumbent on both governments to figure out how to walk it back and keep their relations on a normal keel. we will get through this. >> thank you for joining us. ♪ >> we now turn to matt bradley in baghdad. you have been in baghdad for about a month. what is your sense of life in baghdad while all that is going on up north is happening, does it feel like a city that is under siege? >> it is really not a city that is under siege. there is a curfew at midnight

which is nothing new to residents of baghdad. life is going on as usual. people are doing business. everything is carrying on his formal. -- everything is carrying on as normal. security is a low -- a little tighter. otherwise my things are going just as they were. the only difference is in certain areas where there is a next sectarian -- mixed sectarian presence. have increased reports of violence. todoes malki look determined stay in power? you get the sense that there is no solution with malki remaining as prime minister. >> alki is more than determined to stay in power. he is fiercely sticking to his position which is that he got a plurality in the april 30 and it is his

electoral right to remain in the prime minister position. he is not going to be budging. we see the sandwich in his coalition and these are the groups that propelled him to political power. to defy as people step away. we might find he will start to budge himself. >> the president authorized 300 special forces to advise the iraqi military. any signs of them, do we have any sense of what they're doing as they get ramped the iraqi military has had limited success is on the battlefield. we have seen them move closer to -- tikrit. to create u.s. advisors are telling

iraq is they should not draw the enemy into an urban warfare situation. they should secure the highways and try to choke the area and prevent the islamic state fighters from getting in any further than they have. is in a slowuation boil. it will take a very long time for the military to make it all mosul. up to muscle -- >> thank you. ♪

>> hello and welcome. my name is tommie smith. it is my privilege and honor to sit at charlie's chair and charlie's table. we will discuss the world cup. it starts every 40 -- 40 year and started june 12. it is down to two teams.

joining me now is the venue director for the 1994 world cup. he is the ceo of relevant sports. the coachption of of the new york cosmos. welcome. great year. been watering the seeds all along. think this goes back to 1994? >> there were several moments in , one of the seminal moments and they world cup was a seminal moment.

back in those days we were not sure that we were going to fill the stadium. a was not sure. i remember filling up the stadium for saudi arabia and rocco and people said we cannot fill up in saudi arabia. the americans responded really well. the other seminal moment was the kickoff of major league soccer. moment we have this fillingu are feeling -- stadiums. >> you are captain of the u.s. team. what did you think of the world cup team this time around, the americans? difficultre put in a group and it was a great achievement. the team was set up really well to get results and that is where some of the other teams faltered

when they were trying to play good foot all -- foot all. ball.ot it is the, the momentum carried on and it was difficult against belgium. i think talking about on the field we can play better. jimmy howard was amazing but we would rather be shooting 16 times versus giving it up. it was a big achievement. into the round of 16 but they only went as far as the previous world cup. what does it take for the u.s. to get to the next level question mark -- we'll? -- next level? >> it is a lot of different things, certainly. league continues to improve.

we need to develop different kinds of players. if i look at the team, we had good players but in defense and himield and attack, we lack special players that do something different when you need it against the big team. i do not have the answer to that or the magic wand. country, across all levels there is a lot of resource put into it. a lot of work ring done to develop the future stars. i think we're moving in the right direction. >> you are from venezuela. what does this world cup mean and what will you remember, what will you take away as a south america -- south america and? >> we saw that it would be dominant and we saw some european teams that were able to compete under difficult conditions. many people thought they had a great team and great layers, it would the difficult to play in brazil.

so i think the europeans can come to south america and come -- compete. think --e many interesting things. >> you coached one of the sexiest names in soccer. the new york cosmos. what can you take out of the world cup that you can apply to the cosmos? >> you saw a lot of interesting things from teams going back to play. some teams being a little bit defensive but finding resources taking -- going forward. there are many great things we can look into that was in the world cup but as a nation and us

being here especially in new york, the interest that is rod people areught in, looking who were not interested before. this is a good time to build up the project and we can take a lot of good things. >> you have a team that will come in 2015 playing in yankee stadium. what would you be looking to get out of this world cup were them? versuspower of team individuals. there are individual stars in the media and everyone loves to see them and type them up. goods great to see the teams and the performances, the likes of chile and colombia. the germans defined them more than anyone. a big star had

player, the focus is to make sure that we have a collective team working together. that will take you further than anything and that is very up orton. >> you must be rubbing your hands with all the teams you are bringing here. there has never been a buzz like it before. >> there has never been and that is a big difference. it was more ethnically driven and you would have people, my , a lot ofm italy .ifferent routes -- roots,. folks andjust regular you see it all the time now. that is the big difference that we are seeing here in the states. >> there is the technology. pulls when the referee out the shaving cream and puts it on the all. -- ball. he never seems to get it on the

ground. going into the finals, who did you have? argentina at the final. you were with me so i am not making that up. >> i picked germany to lose to italy. they always lose to italy and no one else. aw argentina would make it all the way. i saw brazil being in their own country could make it and germany was always the best team but i felt there was struggle in brazil and south america and they prove me wrong. >> my wife is said she will seek all your otongues to if there is black spots. --it has been a very

high-scoring world cup. we have not heard one complaint about the all -- ball. one thing that is great outsided suarez, the great thing is this soccer. ,he goals, the attacking style credit to the coaches and players and for the most part you look at the referring. you can always find some mistakes. i have been impressed. it has been really good. they have learned from past world cups where there is a lot of about speedingll up the game and it was great. this was the best one. >> i agree in the sense that this world cup is marked by team spirit more than anything else. seee is great players, we

their and they had moments. mr. rodriguez is probably the biggest star that has come out of this cup that it is the team effort in spirit and when i was over in europe, i have had to go there for business. everyone kept saying about the u.s. and they have great team spirit. not just the u.s., a lot of teams, even the dutch. , collective spirit. argentina they still have with them that theessionalism but it is team. everyone is playing for each other. >> that showed the most in the brazil game. they lacked somebody that could be a leader. even though the teams have shown they need to play together, you --e somebody who can [indiscernible] you expect this would the

high-scoring final? no.hey -- they will be very pragmatic and tactical. they will do what brazil did going for the first [indiscernible] so it will be a high-scoring game and a great final. teams were home before the postcards. they just did not get there. >> i was not so much surprised with italy and england because they were in a difficult group. i was surprised that both of them went home. we were all shocked. no one expected them to collapse as they did all at one time. >> where do you see the final going? >> argentina will win. , a story thatg

as to end. messi is the greatest layer. you can see the last two games they have gotten better. i have a feeling he has not played great the last two games but i have a feeling that he will lift the trophy and get all is hanging over him off of him. i do not know what it is. maybe it is my heart and not my head but i will stick with that. argentina will win in brazil. >> we had duarte on our radio show who wrote the book, "six games that shut a world." -- shocked the world. prophetically

before the game was going to kick off, i hope i do not have to write another chapter. that would be seven shocking and i think the guy is sitting there right now writing another chapter. >> they played great against rozelle. that was crazy, a shocking result. >> the other thing that is missing [indiscernible] i am going for my pick too. soccer is played for 90 minutes and when it is over the germans have one. -- won. forward to seeing the cosmos in action. you have so many great teams coming. there is no excuse to see -- not see great soccer in the united states. lang at yankee stadium of all places. stadium of at yankee all places.

it has been great and i hope you have enjoyed it. ♪

>> this week on "political capital." congressman lewis iteris on immigration and the border. richard rubin and the highway bill. elliott gotkine from tel aviv on -- who is the biggest 2014 albatross? we begin the program with the chairman of the immigration task force, luis gutierrez of