>> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. escalation with the of the israeli-palestinian

conflict. resident obama expressed concerns about the growing number of casualties. palestinians who were killed have been civilians. the u.s. secretary of state, john kerry, is in cairo to broker a cease-fire and he met with the egyptian president earlier today. the federal aviation administration halted all flights to israel after a rocket landed near tel aviv airport. joining me is martin, the director of form policy at the brookings institution. for negotiations headed by john kerry and i am pleased to have him on the program at this time. let me begin by saying welcome. >> thank you. >> what is the impact of the temporarily, of flights

from the united states and europe to tel aviv. willll, i think that it give israelis a sense of being in a siege and being shut down. hamas will claim a victory. the transportation minister criticized the decision of the faa. he said it was a price. -- prize. i am sure the terrorists will consider it that way. as the fighting continues, the situation will grow worse. >> doesn't give hamas more give hamas does it more leverage? >> if they were prepared to claim victory and go home, it might give them grounds to do so. had israelis verify

the claim that they have a soldier. he is probably dead. soldier. a that is something they are claiming a victory on. there are rockets landing. the casualties that they have inflicted is something like 28 israeli soldiers. they have plenty of grounds for victory that they have claimed, regardless of what the circumstances are. they have things to point to. so, that may give them justification for saying, let's except the egyptian cease-fire terms. on the other hand, if the -- a cease-fire, they

will concede the psychological grounds that hamas is claiming. we hear from the israeli side and a dovish member of the cabinet saying that there is no cease-fire prospect and we have to go on fighting. i fear that what is good for one side is bad for the other. a battle the midst of here and the hope is for a cease-fire. that is what the secretary is working for. but, i am not sure that it is going to happen. > is there an admiration for hamas on the arab street? be a good dealto of admiration for palestinians. that has weakened those who are

andnst the use of violence have asked what the point of the rockets were. there is a preoccupation. you do not see a lot of demonstrations. you see a lot more demonstrations in turkey. one of the things that hamas is conscious of is the fact that they have almost no support in the arab world. atar and turkey are their supporters and that is the extent of it. inand palestinian places -- is theiran places, admiration for hamas for continuing to fight? they are taking heavy losses. is heavys happening loss of life on the palestinian side.

the desire to stick it to the israelis and stand up to them is something that gets an immediate resonance. when hamas it announced that they had a soldier. there was celebration in parts of the west bank. qatar andent was in was supposed to go to cairo. he has gone back to the west bank because he is concerned about the situation inning out of control. -- getting out of control. qatar have enough influence to get them to go for the cease-fire? >> they have some. it comes from the checkbook. that is important to hamas.

they are pretty much isolated now and they do not have egypt on their side as they did in orsi was around and worked out a cease-fire with clinton. he had a lot of influence with hamas. he was like a big brother. and the regime that he runs is against the muslim brotherhood, as we know from other circumstances, and is against hamas. they have been choking hamas and have cut off all the tunnels that have provided smuggling routes for hamas. it is more limited and that is r's influence can be more important. there is a rivalry between the qataris and the turks.

that has sorted itself out. they are supporting the egyptian initiative and an immediate cease-fire. negotiation of the requirements that hamas is demanding. opening the passages and allowing more goods and people. those kind of requirements. moment, ist the saying that we have to have agreement on all of those things first. essentially, lifting the siege and opening the passages. saying, let'sare have a cease-fire and we will negotiate that. kerry's diplomacy is to bridge the gap between those positions. >> why do they keep firing rockets at israel? [laughter]

>> a good question. station identification. to show that they can stand up to israel and drive israelis into air raid shelters across the country. all of the main cities. them, even though they have been unable to kill -- i think they have one death as a result of all of the rockets -- they have fired more than 2000 of them. sign of resistance. the symbol of resistance is what matters to them. that is what they live for. the effect is devastating on the palestinian people. the logic is very different to us. it is not about peace. struggleut militants to exact as much pain from eventually,will,

lead to the israelis picking up and going home. going away from the middle east. basic ideology and this is an expression of that. the imbalance is so great between israel -- with its arsenal and air force and -- and hamas' w eapons made out of sewage pipes. they keep this up, despite the andr rates -- air raids ground invasions by the israelis. they see this as a victory. they are able to resist. >> i have had leaders say to me

that the resistance ends when the occupation ends. does that have meaning? well, it is designed to suggest that the purpose is to paleste alice nine -- different than the pl o's. two wanted to accept a state solution and the 1967 borders. that and not accepted want to see the occupation of all of palestine removed. that is the heart of their ideology. the destruction of israel, not peace. >> they have not moved? >> they are a practical organization.

they are tunnel-builders. , fromu know, they have time to time, said that they can accept a long-term cease-fire with a zionist entity. they can accept the return of the west bank and the end of the occupation of the west bank. israel withdrew from gaza. they accepted that and took control their. -- there. the intention is to take it all. >> what you think the israeli objective is, other than to stop the rockets? circumstances presented them with this challenge. do you believe that they want to go in and close the tunnels and decimate hamas? creep that wesion are witnessing at the moment. netanyahu is cautious by nature.

he did not want to get into the ground for. -- war. now, he is in it and still quiet. about a return to the defense minister is a strong hamas inin keeping control of gaza. saying that we need to go in and mowed the grass. -- mow the grass. control anday in would be deterred by the devastation. that is the objective. others in the security cabinet, like the foreign ministry and the right wing leader, are pushing for broader objectives.

for taking over gaza and toppling hamas. creating a new order their. -- there. they do not define what the order would look like. they are pushing for what they are calling, "going all the way." is argument against that that they do not want to leave ungoverned areas like syria and iraq. "going all the way" is a real problem. they want hamas to stop firing and not have a victory. they want to close off the tunnels and they do not know where all the tunnels are. caught point, they are , you know,mma of getting hamas to stop firing.

it may require more military pressure and more military pressure would bring international condemnation. the israelis are in a difficult place. >> do they want to capture and kill leadership? >> that speaks to the same dilemma. do they want a weekend hamas to control gaza or do they want to topple hamas? they have been going after the homes of some of the leaders. they know that the leaders are not there. the leaders have gone underground. there is talk about the main underground headquarters being under a hospital. they are underground and they have an underground network. the ability to find and kill the leaders is much reduced. there is a question that they have to answer for themselves.

do they want to topple gaza? then what? do they want to keep a weekend hamas? if they wanted to topple hamas, could they? >> yes. it is 1.6 million palestinians. one of the most densely populated parts of the world. it is a somalia-like situation and they would have to kill a lot of civilians and a lot of israeli soldiers would be killed in the process. expensive operation all around and not one that i would advocate, at the moment. it is one that circumstances may drive them to. in which case, if they do go the distance -- and one thing to

bear in mind that is interesting is -- i was looking at the casualties in 2012. there are 600 palestinians killed right now. it was 1200 in 2012 in the fighting went on for three weeks than. -- then. it is conceivable that we could see this, if the cease-fire efforts write-down -- break down. we could see them escalate with heavy casualties. there is pressure at that point. the idea heard expressed in a gives me the opportunity to move into the mission that you were an important part in. believes that they cannot get a negotiation that they would find acceptable to their

leaders or members or the palestinians they represent. objective is worldwide condemnation of israel and to isolate israel. argument have any resonance, in terms of the people you have met with and negotiated with? >> i have not seen any evidence and we have not seen any evidence in the time that we were negotiating. was not worried that the peace train was leaving the station and that they needed to climb on board. they have argued that the negotiation have never lead anywhere and will never lead anywhere. they are just an illusion and emma roche for the palestinian people. -- a mirage for the palestinian people.

the only way to get israel to do something is through armed struggle. the objective in this conflict that they have enumerated all relate to the opening up of gaza and enabling gaza to bre athe. lifting the siege. getting the prisoners released. using therelated to conditions for control of gaza, rather than making peace with what they regard as a zionist enemy. >> let's assume that those are the demands. are they legitimate? the people oft aza need to have transformation in their circumstances. ever since hamas took control, their lives have been in misery

and unemployment is beyond 40%. is refugee relief agency providing food to something like 40% of the population. move in orable to out, except in medical emergencies. that is a normal situation. not in this war. egypt will not allow them to israelto the passage and restricts goods that can flow in and out. it is a problematic situation. israel does not want to allow concrete and. -- in. construction is the best way to have employment and they cannot build there. the situation is miserable. it will be 10 times more so as a

result of this. something has to be done for gaza. of hamas should be in exchange for opening gaza and allowing life to return to a real normalcy there, with major international assistance to rebuild gaza. that is the kind of transformation that is necessary. unfortunately, i do not see hamas being willing to give up rockets and military capabilities. i long as that is the case, don't see israel agreeing to anything more than a marginal that allows palestinians not rest easy. >> it is not hopeful. >> it is not.

it is worse than that. you think about how do you improve it and how you turn it into the end state that i was talking about with a normal life reconstruction, it does not come from a cease-fire. in order to stop bloodshed, we need a cease-fire. a cease-fire is the resumption of the status quo. i do not see the circumstances in which hamas disarms, as much as israel demands. the alternative is, for their own reasons, israel goes in and topples hamas. that would provide the opportunity to get israel out and provide a u.n. mandate. it would create a new situation. will get worse

and it is only when it gets worse that they can get a whole lot better. am just saying that that is the only dynamic that i see that can produce a breakthrough. >> there is the new republic magazine with an article out that i am sure you have read that is called, "the explosive inside story about john kerry." did they get the story right? know, the part of the story that they have, they got pretty right. i would give it a 7-10. an accurate, it is

reflection of the story. >> what did they not know? >> i said my self up for that. set myself up for that. i cannot tell you. i am sworn to secrecy. the most important part that they did not know is what we have been determined to keep secret. the bridging ideas that we have developed as a result of these intensive negotiations between the israelis and the palestinians and the secretaries of state. which cameing ideas, out of negotiation, are american ideas that we were working on with both sides and we were unable to complete that process. we put them on the shelf.

the president said, let's caused this for the time being. -- pause this for the time being. gets, thethat this more that people are likely to say that it is not enough to maintain the status quo. we have to go back to a situation in which hamas builds rockets in tunnels. there will be another outbreak. do israelis and palestinians have to be subjected to this kind of chronic conflict? thise people come out of and say that it is time to resolve this conflict. if that is the attitude on both sides, than the ideas that the willepublic does not have be the basis for negotiations. > how do we get> those ideas out

of you? to comeve a party ready back to the table and the secretary of state can put them forward as guidelines for negotiating the final agreement. that is the best way to get it out of us. until then, we are not going to talk about it. >> the president, this article ezid, in 2013, went to see per and he said that he wanted to try peace. i go, peopleywhere talk about it. you expect us to lead an effort towards peace. i want to go for it. for obama, it would require political capital. john kerry is eager to expand his own. merit--

-- --saw an unseen tested uncontested prime minister. to countrymen were willing go through the landmines of politics. you were the envoy to john kerry. did you believe it was possible? was it a hail mary pass? >> it was not a hail mary pass. it was a determination on the part of the secretary of state, backed by the president, as you shot to give the best because of the concern that, 20 years after the oslo agreements weresigned in 1993, if we not able to shake those loose and get to an agreement, it andd become more difficult

the future for israel and the palestinians would be exactly what we are looking at today. it is exactly what he feared and it has come true. he was determined to give it his best shot. i, personally, when he called me me,and discussed it with had doubts because of the skepticism and cynicism. there is so much distrust between leaders. i was infected by his determination. i felt that it was my obligation to help in every way that i could. we went at it. what we read about the assumptions between the president and prime minister the fact thatd by both leaders, in order to get the negotiation table, had to do

something that was politically costly. netanyahu had to agree to prisoners who had committed terrible crimes against israelis. murderers and terrorists. anyad to agree to give up conventions and things that were popular with the people. they paid a political price to go back to the table. that was seen as an indication that they were serious and prepared to put skin in the game. as were we. we gave it our best shot. >> it is ready to start up again if the president gives the go-ahead. >> that is right.

the president is ready to go ahead. can i address one thing related to this about the president? a lot of people said that his heart was not in it and he did not believe in it. kerry. just that was not my experience. the president was skeptical, because of his own experience in the previous four years. he was going to give the secretary of state the time and the support to go at it. every step of the way, he was fully behind the effort, to the point where he was willing to put political skin in the game. his own. it is not commonly understood. important at the time.

when it came to some of these bridging ideas, some of these would have been highly controversial for him. to trying to get the extension of negotiations through a complicated prisoner release deal, he was prepared to commute the sentence of jonathan pollard. been, that would have lyrically controversial. -- politically controversial. obama was behind this. pause.aid, let's take a it is a pause. they will come back when the parties show that they are willing to reengage. >> i do so much. much.thank you so >> a pleasure to be with you, as always.

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>> is the former ceo of time warner. he was the top executive. he was a key force in the merger. stunningvalued at a

$350 billion. culturesf corporate contributed to a collapse of shareholder value. holistic health institute in santa monica. it was founded by his wife. i am pleased to have him back. give me a sense of how you saw jerry as a ceo of time warner? who was that guy? washat guy -- uh, conflicted and had several components. storytellingough and traditions, impact people. at the same time, in order to succeed and get to that position , i had to construct a wall to

keep everything inside of me private. i had to be in an isolation booth, like superman. i would walk into a board meeting and would have to have the answer. street walk into a wall presentation and would have to answer financial questions. said, youd in and know what, i am having a hard time and do not have all the me?ers, could somebody hug that would have been it. i am highly competitive and lived a survivalist life. that is at the detriment of your soul, your family, your health, and all of the accessories to power and success become hollow.

>> even when you were at the height of the power with the boats and planes? being partoved was of a company of journalists, though makers, and musicians. i would try to get out of the cockpit and go and be with them in the creation. the journalists i would follow along. that was the good part. heart and thest wall that was constructed so that everything that i did related to the company. if you and i met, i would take your measure. your title, if it had nothing to do with the business of time warner, i would move on.

that is a terrible thing. that is the mindset. it is 25 hours of giving your soul. i thought i could be different and see myself. i could try to do some things, like change the nature of the charter of the corporation to do public good and not just be for the benefits of shareholders. quarterlylders want a appreciation in their market cap . >> yes. after 9/11 and everything that , iraned with my family member getting up at a wall street presentation and saying that we are going to have things given away to try to help people who cannot find their relatives.

said, isstood up and in that going to affect the margins? i lost it. i literally lost it. i used words that were not appropriate today and i walked out. i knew that i had had it. i had had it. >> this was before the merger. >> this was after the merger. this was after 9/11. right after 9/11. we were supposed to have a board meeting. >> the merger was in 1998-1999? and took in 2000 effect in 2001. were atour journalists ground zero and it was so shocking. so stunning. at the inception of

the world trade center in 1966. laid and inerstone had a helicopter. g andbody was oooin ahhing. i saw all these first responders passing parts to each other and -- i am not presuming age -- like world war ii. here is new york city. the emotions of the family affected me. they had a family member who had shown up at work that day and was gone. >> in some cases, never to be seen.

>> never to be seen. the trauma is what i felt. that is what companies should be about. the community. i have done some writing that has never seen the light of day. equityabout spirits will -- spiritual equity. plans, thisto our equity is taking care of the family. wife -- we would show up for a staff meeting. we would ask, what is going on for you today. we would find out. before we would get to the distance agenda. that is what i would like to see. it would not be hard to change charters to operate in the public good in the public

interest. , we hadorked for david a company built into the charter. , he said that he wanted it to be operated in the interest of shareholders and the public interest. i realize that it sounds a .ittle evanescent it is important for companies to have humanity. i should say this, it is mostly men who cannot express emotions. i was having a wall. an increasing number of women who are ceos. not enough. >> she is terrific. >> running ibm, for example. running hp, for example. running yahoo!, for example.

in the context you have been talking, do they have different values in a different sense of what a corporation ought to be and decision-making that is different? of athink that the quality in a is beneficial corporate environment. are all really good and i am delighted to see it. i am talking about taking a hold of men and letting them get in balance with their feminine side. let them express their feelings. if they did that, there would be more of an open sense of what the role is and, at some point, you realize that keeping together family, your family, your personal life, and your is this life -- business life in

balance. that, it helps. it would have helped me. there is no question. i meditate every day. i am looking for more universal consciousness in there. toptry to get to the and, you know, is that all there is? who are you? why are you here? what is your purpose? what is your mission? is it to make money? is it to be powerful? is it to make a better world? is it to make a contribution and look inside yourself? happen to be fortunate that

some of the people i have worked with have the spirit and it was contagious. as much as i tried, at time warner, to give speeches on the not the onese are that you read. i talk about the start up of hbo and turner. underneath that was a drive and desire to transform what a company does. look at the inequality that we have right now. >> income and quality. >> income inequality. presided over one of the big lists -- biggest mergers. if you -- would you have done that if it was functioning? would that have been different?

hubris.inly, there was you get a little papal infallibility at some point. i saw the ability to turn around a big media battleship. humanity thatthe , and gettingtures them to work in a family and not .n a competitive environment what i have not done the deal? i cannot say that. i believe in the power of the internet. >> so much of the deal was in secret. did you hear from people who might have opposed the deal and said that you were crazy to do the deal and to do the deal that you did in which aol has 50% of

andstock and their earnings everything else was exponentially better. the only thing that was different was the market cap. >> it was the valuation of the stock market and the advice that came. it is my responsibility. thatdvice that came was the evaluation would translate into a combined multiple that andd take the market cap the growth potential of the bottom line to a point where the valuation word justified -- were justified. should i have seen the disruption? the irony is that it was digital disruption that caused a well to to notceed -- aol succeed.

they did not take advantage of search and the other things that google and successors did. torch that went off. -- i was not sensitive enough to what was going on. time,her thing is, at the it is not that it was done in secret. there were quite a few people who -- steve, theyou and meetings were private. or, for a large extent, concealed. turner -- have you spoken to him? what is your relationship? >> not what i would like. >> he is not in a forgiving mood

about this. lost $9 billion. it because of the stock valuation at the time. everybody voted for it. that is not a justification. it was presented and the construct was made. there was no dissent. we are living in a time with valuations of a reputable company and a board. you know, from a humanistic one of view,- point it was a misfire. >> indeed. what is interesting to me is the journey that you have taken.

hugeave been through tragedy. none more than losing your son. have, inct did that terms of the man you are today? >> well -- >> i think people know that your 21 --ho was >> he had turned 30. >> he was firmly murdered. people came and put duct tape on him. they took his money and shot him. >> he was my hero. he was a teacher in the bronx. one of the roughest schools. early on in my life, i had wanted to do that and i was

living through my son. he used our media to reach these kids. i had just returned from another new york event. i had gotten a call from downstairs that i should come down because there were two policemen there. they wanted to know if i was his father. and, they told me that he had died. i cannot tellon, hat happens. it was like i was taken out of my life.

was,what had happened obviously, you do not know how to deal with something like that. i did not. i could not. mistakehe unbelievable of, after taking a month and seclusion, to go back to work. take that would somehow the pain away, if i threw myself into it. sturdier and my emotions further inside, to the detriment of myself and my family. family, attted to my that point. after 9/11, i left and remarried. some terms with my

son's death. it took me a while. it blew open my heart. i saw the life i was leading and the person that i was. i had to change. go into myself. be real. be authentic. recognize how important family is and how important your personal mission is. i got guidance from his him on afrom continuing basis. it is like he is here with me that iping me in ways would not have been able to help myself. deeper and ig

think that he became a symbol o go intoers wh difficult parts of the cities and do something. it is a legacy. he is alive in me every day. and, i want to be a better person. i want to be a better father, and do, grandfather something that is important to help people. --ple get in touch with what helping people get in touch with what is really important. >> thank you for coming. >> thank you.

>> this is "taking stock" for wednesday, july 23, 2014. i am carol massar in for pimm fox. today's theme is faith. companies topping revenue and profits. brees --ns saints drew he has become the face of that city. he talks about his team's transformation. she turned her finance