>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> who is on the show. who are the characters?

there is the character name george the stanza? >> people are always saying to me you are quite a character. >> elaine could be a character. kramer, now he is a character. everybody i know is a character >> on the show? >> so you're saying i go to nbc and tell them i have a idea -- have an idea for a show about nothing. >> we go. >> we, since when are you a right or. writer. >> it is about nothing. >> everyone doing something. >> we go to nbc until them with an idea for a show about nothing.

>> what can you say about jerry seinfeld? a standup comedian that skewers modern life and modern problems with the dead on accuracy. he comes to us each week and the hit nbc series that examines his life and work. ,ike it but classic jack benny the seinfeld television show reveals seinfeld the comedian. bad career moves and love affairs and the annoying feeling better adulthood itself is somewhat overrated. a superb ensemble cast. you like this so far? >> yes. >> why is the show so successful. ? is a sitcom that is not processed through a large studio system. it is a few people working on this and are doing what we think is funny, and they cast is

amazing. an amazing group of people. each one of the people could easily hold down their own show. >> what is the glue of the show? >> the egos are in check frankly. we are all happy to be doing good work and we all have a lot of respect for each other. the glue is larry david and myself working on every single line, every single week of every show. it is not delegated, and no one interferes. [applause] [laughter] >> do women know about shrinkage? >> you mean like laundry? , like when a man does

swimming, afterwards? fax it -- >> it shrinks? [laughter] >> like a frightened turtle. >> the creation of "seinfeld"? did larry go to you or did you go to larry? >> i did not go to him as much as i turned to him in the bar and said i had a meeting the other day with nbc, they are interested in me doing some kind of show. he said what kind of show? i said i don't know. i never have any ideas. >> did you actually say that? an hour goes by, he says you want to get something to eat? i said yeah. we go across the street to the korean deli. they have all kinds of stuff. sometimes there is weird stuff.

no labels. just big newtons wrapped up in celebrating -- of with no identification. we start making fun of the products. he said this is what the show should be. just two comedians talking because it is what they do. they wander around during the day with nothing to do and make fun of everything they say. we should do a show like that. that was the genesis. >> was he going to be one of the comedians? >> no. >> david would be him? i mean george would be him? >> no, george was originally a comedian in the beginning. if george is a comedian, then you have to see his act. >> he is not david? idea came up with a story to figure which character could do this. a lot of times larry's ideas

fit george very well. >> some say this was the perfect marriage, you and larry david. a magical relationship. >> it was. different comedic sensibilities. >> not different comedic sensibilities. different kinds of guys. he was the perfect partnership where he saw a lot of great stories and knew exactly what would be a great story for the show and created tons of stories . i had a great sense of mechanics of comedy and detail of lines, and we always -- give any idea could pass through both of her filters, it would work. if i thought it was funny and he thought it was funny, it was almost always funny. >> what if he thought it was funny and you did not? >> it would depend. in a partnership you give and take.

we had a great filtering system. that is what it is. you sit in an office and riders come in all day and pitch you stories. if you are there by yourself, one person's instinct is really not good enough to turn out that amount of material. >> the test was you would never put anything on that was not funny? >> as best you can. you're just trying to improve your average. it is like hitting a baseball. >> what do they hit, 300? >> a good hitter can have 500. >> what did you hit on the show? >> 700? >> most of them good. very few clinkers. >> there are very few people that say this is the best ever.

>> i love those people. >> do you believe it? >> no, i don't think things like that. >> i don't ever want to see it in print of this is the greatest ever. >> no, that is absurd. for me, the honeymooners makes me laugh more. ♪ >> i am sitting here watching you laugh out loud. >> let's see if it is funny in 50 years like the honeymooners. >> tell me how you and larry are different in terms of writing? >> is he more absurd or are you more absurd? >> i think we take different positions. here is where we are the same, we both love to kill it. we will work any amount of hours. our desire to avoid humiliation is a great and both of us, we so desperately did not want to be

embarrassed i each episode coming out this week. as the show became more popular, the danger of that became greater and greater. we said oh my god, this is getting popular and now we have to maintain this ridiculous standard. it became more and more terrorizing. but he has tremendous energy, tremendous comedic fertility. tons of ideas. there are people in this world that funny things happen to. >> and he is one of them? are you one of them? , i am not. i am the kind of person when something funny happens to you, i know just how to tell it. >> did you study comedy? >> that is what i do. formally? >> i don't mean you go to school. but in a sense, you look at it from an analytical eye and say why did that work and what do i have to do and where is my timing and where do i need to take it back so the young median -- comedian comes to you and says, tell me what i need to know to be a comedian.

what do you tell him? >> just work. >> there is nothing about logic and the absurd end of precise way to prove something that is unprovable? >> to me, one thing a good comedian can do is take an absurd from us and put it through rigorous logic. that sounds very logical. you say something completely fatuous -- >> did you learn that somewhere? >> i looked at a lot of good jokes and realized i had that in common. as a kid, i would write down jokes and would try to figure out why they were funny. i never get tired of why is that funny? i never get tired of talking about it or analyzing it. i am very scientific about it. >> when you decided to end seinfeld, larry have left two years earlier. how was it different when he left? >> it was very different. i did not know if i could continue the show. i was pretty scared about it. can see the timing was right for the show to him.

i felt the audience was not ready and i wasn't ready, so i just took over the script writing. i work twice as hard. i would rotate groups with other writers. i would take three guys and they would be larry. >> we cannot imagine how hard it was for you to do that. >> it was fun. i was having fun, charlie. >> jack welch wanted you to continue for another season. i think you wrote about this, to. that he wanted you to continue for another season, and is a great fanfare about how much he offered few per episode, something like $5 million. i think you told me a story where he went to you and said you have to do this, we want you to do this and use of look, i cannot imagine myself on riting, and that

is where i have been many times. >> i think he called me one time to talk about it as i was making the decision. it was a sunday, and i am in the office working. i said what are you doing right now, jack? he said i am at, you know, aspen. i said you know where i am, i am in my office working. the work was never an issue with me. it was out of love and fun. my real reason for ending the show was i just felt the stage instinct of knowing when to say good night and have the audience go, "oh, i wish there was just a little more and they leave the theater and say that was great." but if you go 10 minutes too long, it is amazing how it depresses that good feeling. even though we are talking about years, i could just feel that moment. i was like if we leave now, the audience -- there is the thing that makes audiences jump up. that is what it is.

it surprises them a little bit. >> people said it was a perfect instinct about you. they are clearly right. someone said it will serve him the rest of his life. he made the right choice. johnny carson made the right choice. >> i did it for the audience. i thought if i leave this now, they will have this thing to say it was good but then it started to run out of gas. >> before i got there, i could feel it. i knew if we tried to do a one more time, might not be as good. >> i felt that also. >> what did you think you would do when you left? >> i didn't care. ♪ but then i can't tell you the big news. [laughter] >> news, what news? >> sorry. >> why? >> this is beyond news. this is like pearl harbor,

kennedy assassination. it is total shock. >> come on, please, please, please. >> george is getting married. [laughter] >> we initially were picturing a show about how a comedian gets material. we would follow a comedian around in his daily life. we would go from the grocery store to the dry cleaner, maybe go on a date, hang out with his friends. at the end of the show he would do a monologue and it would be some of the things we saw happen on the show. that is where the comedian got the material. that was the pitch. >> in bc believed in the show? >> four episodes.

>> yes, four episodes. >> was it a hit? >> did you feel good about it from the beginning? >> i felt good the fact that four episodes were produced because i have never produced four episodes before and did not know i was capable of doing that. just the fact that i have four on the air made me very excited. i did not think about the future. foregoing four. >> the story goes you said when they wanted more, you said i can do more. i have given you everything i have had with these four episodes. >> i did not say it out loud but i said it to my close, personal friend like jerry. i said look, i gave you the four things that happened to my -- happen to me in my life. i said what else could i

possibly do? then i had to come up with ideas like a regular writer. then we were doing 13 episodes. i almost started crying from the fear. >> the masturbation sequence? >> >> how dare you. you know my parents are probably going to be watching this. >> i hope so. did you create this? >> yes. it is based on something that happened to me, yes. >> you got caught? >> i did not get caught. i was in a contest. emerged victorious i am proud to say. >> the famous episode in which you won an emmy. thank you very much. roll tape. >> what is the matter? >> my mother caught me.

>> caught you doing what? >> you know. [laughter] i was alone. >> you mean -- >> she caught you where? >> i stopped by the house to drop the car off and i went inside for a few minutes. nobody was there, they were supposed to be working. my mother had a glamour magazine. [laughter] >> glamour? >> one thing led to another. first she screamed george, what are you doing, my god? that it looked action was going -- like she was going to faint. she started clutching the wall to hang onto to it. i did not know to zip up or to grab her to keep her from falling. >> what did you do? >> i zipped up.

>> this is one of the most famous episodes of seinfeld ever. >> definitely. it got tremendous word-of-mouth i guess. i think it was one of the turning point in the history of the show. that and moving to thursday night. >> why did you leave? >> well, charlie, you see, i was feeling sad, i needed to -- i had been there for seven years. that is a long time to suffer the way i do in my daily life. seven years is a long time for someone to executive produce a show like that. >> did you burn out? >> i was not burned out. i have plenty of ideas, it was not that. i was learning how to do it. it was not that, i just thought -- i just felt i had done that and wanted to try something else. that is pretty much it.

>> tell me about the jerry you know. >> there is more? >> tell me about him. you know this guy as well as anyone. as you say, on the same wavelength. >> do you watch the show? >> yes, i do. >> there you go. do you watch george? >> yes. >> there you go. that is all you need to know about me. >> you are like a painter who says everything you need to know about me is right here in the painting? i have had composers say everything you need to know about me is in the music. >> i am very much like picasso. in many ways. my affinity for sex apparently. my outputs. we have a lot in common.

>> you and pablo? correct yes. >> for you, doing the show was suffering. >> i also had a lot of fun, too. >> >> come on, george. finish the story. >> the sea was angry that day, my friend. like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli. [laughter] i got about 50 feet out and suddenly the gray beast appeared before me. i tell you he was 10 stories high if he was a foot. sensing my presence he let out a great bellow. i said easy, big fella. [laughter] and then, as i watched him struggling i realized something

was obstructing its breathing. from where i was standing i could see directly into the eye of the great fish. >> what did you do next? >> then, from out of nowhere and huge tidal wave lifted me, tossed me like a cork and i found myself right on top of him face to face with the blowhole. i could barely see from the waves crashing down upon me but i knew something was there so i reach my hand in and pulled out the obstruction. [laughter] >> how do you explain it, the one show captured the essence of -- at those of its time? >> if we could explain it, we probably would have screwed it up. i actually did that. i said what do you think? i said no way. i said i love the show in the audience is me but i don't watch tv. this is slightly more

sophisticated level of comedy and not what television is used to and they do not think we will get anybody. it started by attracting college boys, young men, mid to late 20's. that was the key, core audience. then all of a sudden children were watching, 8, 9 and 10 years old. my mother's generation. we started going international and people from other countries were watching. >> what were they getting? >> i imagine the children, i assume were laughing at michael's antics, falling down. i guess our parents saw us in the characters. what they consider their crazy kid. and i guess to some degree in

trying to examine the minutia of a very specific human experience of urban living at a certain age, somehow we tap into something universal. somehow the little disturbances of daily life are more universal than we know. and because the show is dedicated entirely to the left h and nothing else, there was no attempt at learning or growth or messages, we would do anything and everything and sacrifice anything to achieve the laugh. i guess what we built that if they turned it on whether it was a good, fat, stupid whatever it was going to be, they were going to laugh. >> where is that larry david's vision, jerry seinfeld's vision and something else? >> it is hard to say. i think it was a unanimous collaboration as far as the idea

of doing a show about the daily life of a comedian, which was essentially very small things. there were no great offense and jerry seinfeld's life. i think that the cynicism of the show, the darkness of the show, particularly in the first four or five years, much more larry david van jerry. -- than jerry. jerry has a lighter heart of much younger heart. larry is full of darkness and little twists and turns. it was a beautiful collaboration. larry lived across the hall from kenny kramer. george has certainly become a model of larry david in many respects. on a next modeled girlfriend of jerry's.

it is all kind of there. i think the stuff people remember us for came out of the notebooks of larry david. i remember when we did the masturbation show. i sent larry, this is nuts. everything i thought, come on, this is pushing credibility, it happened to me. i wrote this down because that happened to me. i think a lot of the specific -- iration, week to week >> what is the darkness of larry? >> larry walks around with a cloud basically. it will rain on him and no one likes him and it is futile to get through the day because no good can come of it. yes he is too filled with fear and phobia to kill himself. so he struggles. >> after every episode he would say this is it.

>> he did the pilot, i cannot do anymore than this. when 22 came up, he was like i cannot do it. so finally he left. >> did the show change when he left? >> yes. >> how so. >> a lot of things happen when he left. the darker element. now instead of being written by , a staff of guys in 30's and 40's and have a little but it of that, the staff became younger. they were in their 20's. they were kind of writing a semblance of it. the reality is one step removed. the other thing is that jerry spread his wings.

one of his favorite shows as an abbot and costello show and i think we started to go that way for the most part. i think we started to look less minutia of things. our intrinsic storylines got broader in their scope. a little wackier, a little more in a good sense juvenile. another thing that larry tried to do is he started playing with instead of one story, he would have four distinct stories, one for each character that would brilliantly dovetail at the end. one or two would dovetail, but not necessarily all four. all good storylines but not necessarily with the same polish at the end that make us

you have that in order to get that. just as much fun. even though there were many critics that said it is not the same show, the audience for the most part seem to keep saying that they were laughing. >> when you heard the criticism over the last year, did you say they have a point or the critics are out of touch with the audience? >> i think the critics had a point to a certain degree in that they noticed the change of the show. they were articulating the change in the show. what they went on to say, therefore, it is the worst show, i don't know that i agree. i can tell you, there is not an episode we did where i don't think we had some tremendous funny moments. when people say favorite episode or season, i really don't know because every one of them there was something really potential -- really exceptional.

>> what can you tell me about the final episode? >> not much. it is actually an hour. i think it is brilliant in his idea and structure. i can tell you it brought back a lot of folks that had really been a part of our expanded family over the years. i thought it was wonderful. >> your postmortem on it? >> i think it is as big of a home run as you can hit. which is to say, no one is going to be satisfied. there is such expectations about this thing that no one will feel satisfied, but i think what they did, considering the options they had talked about, and one of the options was not doing a finale episode, just an episode, considering the scrutiny and the

expectations, i think it is a brilliant job. >> close to 80 million people. >> ok. [laughter] >> what is it going to do? will you all say it has been one hell of a ride, i am off for the rest of my life, see you later? >> to each other? >> yes. >> >> i hope not. we do have different lives. we are four very different old. -- people. it has been an amazing relationship between the four of us. >> i would say defining an event in one's life. >> we have been through something amazing. before we went on to tape the final show. we got together backstage and had a meeting. it is not a terribly sentimental group and we never took it very

seriously, but we got into the huddle and jerry started to mist up and cry. it is not that it is out of character, but it is unusual. he said the four of us are inexorably tied to each other. no one will think of one of us without thinking of the other three and i cannot think of three people i would rather be linked to for the rest of my life, and he is right. we will be the musketeers until end of our lives. it was an amazing relationship, and i cannot think of a working relationship with that much attention that could go for that long that could be that much fun. even under the worst of circumstances when all the negotiations were happening and there was a lot of tension and pressure and it really got hot under the collar for a while, we

still laugh every day we went to work. i cannot imagine not having those people in my life. >> it may very well be seinfeld is as good as it's ever going to get for you. and you have to come to the idea that i got enough out of it so if that is the price i paid, i am prepared to do that. >> yes. absolutely. i had a fascinating conversation with william shatner. he is an idol of mine. we were talking about after how star trek ended, he was very bitter, and it seemed the thing that was going to have the greatest impact in his career was done and was bitter and tried to distance himself from it in his career suffered for it and reputation suffered until finally he went i have had an opportunity to create something that will live so far beyond me, how many actors have that?

how many actors have that moment? he really embraced it. he said you might want to think about embracing that. >> embracing it rather than making it your enemy. >> i have no illusions that anything i am involved with from moment on will have the impact profitability or whatever of a seinfeld. what it has given me is the ability to now do the things that move me that i care about. even if they are just silly, funny things. seinfeld is not my sense of humor necessarily. my sense of humor has more hugging and growing. i think humor is a great teacher. it did teach, but in an abstract, bizarre way. it now gives me the ability to say i do not care if it is success to a degree.

what i care about now is do i want my name attached to it? the answer is yes. that was the greatest gift that jerry could give me. >> is there any downside to you -- for you? did it have any downside? >> no, other than the fact that i am not the worlds's most comfortable celebrity. it would not be my choice to really not be anonymous. the four of us are intensely private. you don't see is out of the premieres and parties. but i have found people have been really wonderful and kind and respectful to me and my family. i go to the market, go to the movies.

i live my life. i get all the perks. >> people know who you are? you're making good money? >> we made a wonderful living. the children's lives are secure. >> the story is conventional wisdom is that it was you who said at the beginning, we ought to be getting more and made the argument for $1 million an episode. if you believe the press, it ended up a $600,000 an episode. did you begin that? was that your idea? not begin the million dollar idea. that first came out of julia's mouth. there have been actual research done. we knew that for the network alone, every episode underrated -- generated $14 million of profit.

the network alone. that it was castle rock and syndication. we had argued that after five years of being at seinfeld, there was no upside in the long run for the three of us to continue doing the show. it had made a celebrities, made us money, but if we were going to be actors with extended careers and play different roles continuing to put out the image elaine, and kramer, was instrumental to the long-term careers. unless those shows were extremely profitable. so we argued we needed to be cut in on syndication. we needed syndication points. in no small terms to go take a hike. when we got into the bargaining chair and nbc nbc so desperately wanted, we said again, syndication?

our salaries are fine, but you are making such massive profits on syndication, profits of $3 million per show. into infinity. and you do not want to give us any of that? in order for us to feel good about doing the show, i want to leave the most successful half-hour in the history of television knowing i never have to work again. that is what i require or you could not have my services. knowing what all the revenues were, what everyone was making up front, we said we try to figure out what percentage of the success formula of the show where the three of us? we came up with jerry, larry, the writers, us, and everything else. the wonderful guest players -- all the other stuff. 1/5 of that formula we said here is the number, one million per episode. >> when you altered that number,

what did they say? >> they did what they should have done, which is laughed at us. i also knew it was detrimental to television if they made the deal with us. it is proven to be detrimental. it is outrageous upfront money. it is bad for television. $13 million in episode for it are? actorion dollars to each for a show that is 35 and the ratings. these are bad prices. you ask for that kind of money when you are producing the kind of profit revenue we are producing but we could not ask , for it. we had to take it out up front. i personally feel we damaged the economics of television and nbc was foolish to give us what they gave us. but there was no way we were going to come back for anything less than the sixth. that was my bottom line.

i knew at an episode we would amount, have a certain and that would pay for the rest of my life. i thought they were foolish to make the deal. i thought they were foolish in the way they handled us. i thought it would ruin relationships. >> it did? between whom? >> i felt we were part of her real family with nbc. i never had any problem if they did not want to make a deal with us. i thought that was perfectly legitimate. >> you just said, they should not have done it? >> but we began in december, and they did not talk to us really until three weeks before it had to be a deadline. we went through the rest of the season with our crew, writers, everyone going are we coming back because our lives depend on this, and the three of us going we are serious and they are not dealing with us? we were the bad guys. these people cannot make decisions about their lives

because the three of us were playing a game of chicken with nbc. because nbc would not talk with us. they did not talk to us until may 1. they thought we would crumble, we would get scared. and if they offered us 250, we would take it because we will crumble. that is not the way you deal with people who are your family and had been working with you for nine years. >> where was jerry in this? >> between a rock and a hard place. as the producer of the show it is his mandate to bring the shows in the -- in as inexpensively as possible. that is his job, to maximize profit and keeping the cost as low as he can. on the other side of the coin, he will be the first to say they deserved a million and then some. he is our collaborator. he believed in us and our request i really think.

because he was between a rock and a hard place he really , stayed out of it. i think we could have had a smoother ride had he not stayed out of it but he would have had to choose what hat to wear, and i think that is a very difficult decision to make. i don't blame him for staying out of it, and ultimately he did jump in at the end and say finish this. that is the day we closed the deal. >> when he said finish it? >> he said you guys better stop the shenanigans and give them what they want today or i'm going to pull. so that was the final incentive to at least get it done. >> i cannot wear this puppy shirt on tv. it looks ridiculous. >> you have to wear it now. although stores are stocking it based on the fact that you're going to wear it. the factory new jersey is going to make them.

>> they are making these? >> yes. this pirate trend is going to be the new look for the 90's. you are going to be the first pirate. >> i don't want to be a pirate. >> the entrance came from where? this famous entrance. >> i cannot tell you what the episode was but i know i came to catch up with the scene. something was happening and i come bolting in and they got a laugh. it felt right. it took a few shows to get to this point. i felt that represented kramer, that was the essence of the character because i felt that is how the character steps to life. he comes into things. also, the pace of the show. it is moving very fast. the patrick between jerry and george. so i like to get in quick and get right to the scene. that is another way of looking at it.

>> it really is a combination, the success of the sitcom and then the perfect combination of ensemble actors and good writing. >> absolutely. it is my third television show, i know about that one. it is a chemistry. it is difficult to still tell you why it works. it is a mystery to me. no one thought the show would become the successful. it tested badly, it was picked up only for four shows the first year. the second show let's give them 13. what is next on the schedule? then it started to catch on. we always had a decent following. in the second year we had a

share of the audience that stayed consistent. nbc started to take note of that. >> this is a typical interaction between jerry and kramer that does not need to be set up. ♪ >> you get the tickets? >> montecito. >> special sneak review. >> when someone tries to blow you up, not because of who you are but because of different reasons. >> yes. ,. >> jerry, you think you could get an extra ticket for my friend? >> you know what i had to go through to get these? >> i know but he is a big fan. i would consider it a personal favor to me. >> i guess i do owe you. >> do i need to say more? >> what the friendship they have

that i can come in and take the whole carton of ice cream out the door. >> take more than your share. it says it all right there. there is the energy come at jerry's take on kramer. you'd see the character. they were interesting. there was all of it. >> you just have to do that scene after scene. >> it is different. that is what makes it so inspiring. >> you have to deliver the same way? >> i can be in a real funky mood, to. >> jerry seinfeld's biggest talent is what? >> he is a heck of a writer. he writes a lot of the shows. >> does he really? >> yes. he knows his characters very well. they were conceived by he and larry davis.

i would say his biggest talent is he knows what is funny. i have never been held down by jerry seinfeld. i will go way over sometimes. i will look at them and say you want to put that in? >> do you think you are sponge worthy? yes i think i'm sponge worthy. >> run down your case for me again. >> we have gone out several times. we obviously have a good report. i own a very profitable electronics distributing firm. i eat well. i work out. if i can speak frankly, i am actually quite good at it. >> are you going to do something about your sideburns? seems like only yesterday. >> not to me.

i guess we finished that about three and a half years ago. it was a lot of fun to do. >> it made a difference in your life? >> yes. it made a huge difference in my life. a very happy difference. -- experience. because it was so satisfying creative way. >> what made it that satisfying? let me offer possibilities. aecom a brilliantly written? >> correct. >> b, a wonderful ensemble group of actors? >> yes. >> three, you just had the x factor, something makes it a magical show? >> >> abc.

i guess all three, but i think it was extraordinary we were all lucky enough to come together. once it came together, it was sort of there. i do not think there was magic the on that. it was just a great group of people at the right place at the right time. and we had a lot of fun. we enjoyed the process and i , think that translated. >> do you define yourself as a comedian or an actor? >> an actor. i have never done standup or anything like that. >> why? it is a very different way of performing. >> and yet probably jerry today would define himself as a standup comedian more than he would as an actor. >> i am sure of that. we always teased him on the set and he would say he was not an actor. he is the first one to admit it. >> what is his genius do you

think? >> i think it is standup comedy. i actually think he enjoys what he does and that comes through. >> absolutely. you may have heard me say that in our conversations. if you are having a wonderful time, it is infectious. >> it translates. that is what was so great about doing seinfeld actually. we were having so much fun. other people were digging it. we are like wow, this is cool. >> was saturday night live like that. >> no. >> why not? >> well, many reasons. it was a big break for me. definitely a great training ground for me. there is no doubt. it is extremely difficult to do.

i was very young and unbelievably naïve. x now or your old? >> i am an old hack. hag. i did not know how the business works, and i did not know how the show worked and there's a lot of politics about getting your material on air. i came from doing ensemble work and improv and we are a team. it does not translate. >> you wear a graduate of northwestern? >> >> exactly. i attended northwestern. it was hard to be a woman there. >> it was hard to be a woman? what is that mean? >> it means they were not writing material for women. they were much more inclined to write for the men. >> today they have lots of female characters. >> they do today. this was 1983. >> was that a good year? >> no.

>> 1984? >> no. the readings on the show that were good. >> you do not have great memories? >> no, i don't really. i really did learn a lot about how the business works. it was not creatively satisfying. i came out of that show and said to myself am i will not do anything again unless it is fun. >> when you got to seinfeld you said -- >> this is fun. i knew larry david. he was a writer on snl and that is why he sent me the seinfeld scripts because he knew me. that is something good that came out of it. >> he gets the credit for a lane? >> yes. he wrote it. >> not only that, he thought you would be perfect. >> yes. >> you walked in and said bingo.

there was not a maybe, maybe. we have found re: lane. >> that was nice. it was great. when i got the scripts, i said will we be able to get away with this because that show was not written like most television shows. >> how so? the conversations were not particularly meaningful. they were small conversations that were funny. that appealed to me tremendously. ♪

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