>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> we begin this evening with the president in europe trying to do with two crises. russia and ukraine. and the threat of isis in iraq. a video emerged yesterday of a

journalist being beheaded. the killings have increased pressure on president obama to take more decisive action. the president addressed the situation earlier today in estonia. >> whatever these murderers think they achieved by killing journalists, they have failed. they fail because americans are repulsed by the barbarism. we will not be intimidated. there horrific actions only unite us as a country and stiffen a result to take the fight to these terrorists. those who make the mistake of harming americans will learn that we will not forget, and that our reach is long, and that justice will be served. >> joining me is ryan crocker at texas a&m. he is also the former united

states ambassador to iraq, syria, and in afghanistan. his latest column is "ready, aim, fire, not fire, aim." i am pleased to have him on the program. thank you for coming. tom in washington and ryan in texas. >> you have said that the rise of isis presents the greatest threat to the united states is national security since 9/11. let us assume that is true. what should we do? >> i think we need to take a number of interrelated steps. first, we need to step up the tempo on airstrikes in iraq read we need to injured his them into syria as soon as we have verified targets. isis erased the border between iraq and syria. we should take them up on it. secondly, we need a political offensive, if you will.

we have to be in overdrive with the iraqis to help them form an inclusive government that will bring the sunnis back into coalition with the kurds and the shia. third, we need to be also in overdrive on forming a regional and international coalition. we have some opportunities coming up with the nato summit. secretaries carry and hagel will then be traveling to the region. this is a problem for the world. the world needs to step up to it. there are some things that we should do. i think we need to be careful about the perception of an association with iran. that will be highly problematic for our sunni-arab allies.

it will likely cause iraqi sunnis to withdraw from the process. similarly, we need to be clear that we are not intervening in syria in support of the bashar al-assad regime. we need to intervene in syria to combat a great threat to our own national security. >> ton, you seem to disagree about the terms -- and correct me if i'm wrong -- about the threat to our national security. how do you see the moment? what should we do? >> the point i was making is that isis today cannot threaten the american homeland. that was the point i was making. that meant for me that we have time to sit back and design the kind of strategy that ryan is talking about. as he laid out, this is really complicated.

this has to be done in a thoughtful, intelligent way. first of all, it requires a platform -- political platform -- that we can stand on to launch military operations. before you set down in the chair, ryan and i were reminiscing about being in beirut 32 years ago during the lebanese civil war. one of the things i learned from that experience was watching the marines come into lebanon. one of the conclusions that i drew from that expense is that when you have no political center, then everyone is inside. when you intervene in beirut, when there was no political center, the lebanese used to call the marines the american militia. what ryan is suggesting, without an iraqi national unity coalition of sunnis, kurds, and shiites, that we can be fighting

for that, to defend iraqi national unity and perl is stick future. not fighting on behalf of the shiites, or let alone iran. without a national unity platform, interbeing effectively in the isis problem in a way that will create a basis for some kind of political framework to be in place after we leave, after the intervention is over. without that platform, you will have a problem. that is why this is so difficult. the only thing that i was reacting to this morning is that isis does not oppose -- pose an immediate threat to the american homeland, therefore we have time to think this through. this is really complicated. >> it seems to me that you both articulating the president's the new. am i wrong about that? >> i hope you are not wrong. what all of this takes, what tom

and i have described, is one key thing, american leadership. i hope are a much that the president, when he goes to wales, is going to articulate what is at stake here, why that has to be an international coalition, and then begin the process of forming it and leading it. i hope we are in complete sync. the roots of our -- we have not seen that in american leadership. leadership. it starts with a vision, and is followed by a plan. i think isis is stronger, better armed, better funded, and more experienced than the al qaeda of osama bin laden that brought us 9/11.

there are thousands who have western passport, including americans. i would not bet the capital building that they are unable at the present time to carry out an operation against the american homeland. it was chilling for all of us -- the beheadings of james foley and stephen sotloff. i was reminded of the beheading of daniel pearl. that was the operational architect of 9/11. it is the same ideology, just more capability. >> tom, you interview the president. would you think he is? >> i think ryan's point about forceful leadership on this

issue is valid. i think what he has been focused on is that without a political coalition there of sunnis, shiites, and kurds that can form the political backbone, we not only become the shiite or iranian air force, but after we leave, anything we achieve militarily would not be sustainable. there would be no political framework to fill it in a sense. whatever we sweep away of isis. i think that is what he is wrestling with. >> as you have pointed out, tom, in today's column. as for iran, if we defeat isis, it will be the third time we have defeated a sunni counterbalance to our run. this is not a reason not to do it, but a reason to do it in a way that does not attract us

from the iranian nuclear program needs to be diffused. that is tricky. ryan, the interesting thing about this is the recent advances against isis have included iraqi militia that have been funded in the past by iran. iran seems to have a stake in this. >> that is why, as tom and i have both pointed out, we have to be extremely careful not to look like an ally of iran. i think we do that, as tom and i have both suggested, by ensuring that there is a solid iraqi political foundation that includes sunnis, shiites, and

kurds. i don't think we need to hold more forceful military action until that is achieved. i think when the iraqi cs swing into action against a common enemy that it will help the political process. i will underscore, you will not get the political foundation by leaving it to the iraqi to do themselves. we are hardwired into their system. it only works when we are fully, heavily engaged, that is why secretary john kerry's visit was so important. i know the white house has been working the phones. they will have to keep at that to get the necessary foundation. >> tom, your column says ready, aim, fire, not another way. what are the fundamentals that we need to appreciate -- iran seems to say that we can't wait for all these foundations to develop -- there is a military

necessity now, and we have to act on that. >> i don't disagree with that. that's what i use the term accompanied in conjunction with -- the two go together. when they see us put skin in the game and lead, they will respond to that. it is tricky. there is a point where they were also say, we will hold your coat. that is why it has to be in tandem. i am all for hitting isis targets in iraq and syria. i think they should have no century. i want to make sure we do that always in conjunction with them also doing the political and military equivalent on their site, because their ability to adjure responsibility and not make the hard political choices is expansive. you only need to ask the former u.s. ambassador to iraq about that. >> the question also is syria and bashar al-assad, and how do

we define a relationship with him in terms of what our policy has been over the last couple of years. ryan? >> i said from the beginning that strictly saying that bashar al-assad must go, this is a policy. the fact of the matter is, bashar al-assad was not going for years ago and is not going today. that said, it is a pretty horrible regime. tom and i both know it. i spent three years there. we are in no way supporting the syrian regime. we can catalog her since. it would be a good idea. we are defending our own national interests against a mortal enemy.

now, that said, if we are able to do great isis and syria to some significant degree, the primary beneficiary would likely be more moderate elements of the sunni opposition. it could also create a climate in which many who stand with bashar al-assad, not because they like him, they are the alternative is worse great if they no longer saw isis is that mortal threat to them, you can see a dynamic developing within the regime community that could make change possible, could make negotiation possible, and, why not be optimistic. >> tom? >> i will defer to ryan on that one. i have a good grasp of the internal dynamics and syria

right now. one thing is necessary in showing up the opposition -- if you are going to be in this game, you need to be in to win. you cannot be recognizing borders against an enemy that does not recognize borders itself. i think once we do feel we have political allies in the region to work with us in tandem, you have to take the fight to them. you have to hurt them. and you have to hurt them wherever they are. >> when do we have -- when are we confident that we have political allies in the region? what is the necessary point that we reach before we do everything we can to attack isis without

boots on the ground, and in conjunction with other forces on the ground with what is necessary now? what is the danger of waiting? what you think of the new prime minister? >> did be determined, charlie. it really comes -- he really comes from the same party as nouri al-maliki. >> ryan? >> i see nothing to suggest that he does not support their ideology. clearly, he is not one going to want to repeat the same mistakes as nouri al-maliki. i would be cautiously optimistic given intense u.s. engagement and bringing in some other partners that have influenced. it will be essential for that process. they will not get it done on their own. i would argue that this is complicated.

you really can't have a sequence of events. you have to move on multiple fronts, militarily, politically at the same time. i have argued that military action is going to foster a political process, not hinder it. the sunnis have being in the forefront of begging for active military in intervention. i have been talking to people who have been fighting isis since the spring. they are afraid they will lose territory unless we do more and quickly. the one thing that iraqi seem to be able to agree on at this point is that american military action is important. you have to galvanize the region. king abdullah had a statement that we should repeat back to him when he says that isis will be in europe this month and in the united states the month after.

ok, your majesty, lets get on with it, together. >> is this a defining moment? i know secretary henry kissinger has a new book coming out. not so much that point, but the finer point about how decisive this is as a moment in terms of -- that will influence the rest of the middle east history in the same way that the end of world war ii did. i don't want to stress is too far, but you both know too much not to ask the question. >> if i can take a shot at that. i think it can be a defining moment. that definition could run either way. what will the fine the moment, in my view, is the strength and the capability of american leadership. are we going to show the same

kind of leadership we did after world war ii? will we shake a post-cold war order? will we sit back and let the centripetal forces completely take over the processes? >> one the reasons that we are in a mess, our friends are all over the place in the region. they are backing different factions and fights. united arab emirates are on one page, egypt is on another page, turkey is on another page. there is a reason for that. the reason is that we have not exercised that kind of sustained regional diplomacy to get everybody on the same page. look what we did in the first gulf war with george h.w. bush. a regional coalition, including a syrian division of all things. and an international coalition.

that would not have happened without extremely strong and sustained presidential leadership that is what we need now. i think the future of the region and our own security pivots on whether that leadership is deployed and how deftly it is managed. i think there is the one difference between the 1991 gulf war coalition that i got to see a symbol from the back of secretary james baker's airplane. obama has differences from george h.w. bush and his predecessors -- that is they were still dealing with hard states, solid states. so much of what president obama is dealing with our states that have come unstuck. so, you are just required to lead them in the right direction.

there is an element of having to build their coherence. that is where -- i think that why this is a defining moment is that we are basically seeing the in -- the end of the ottoman empire. this is a region that is a pluralistic region, that is made up of many different communities, sects, and tribes. it has been managed by the ottoman empire, british, french, kings and dictators. the pluralistic nature has been managed by the top down with iron fists. the situation we are in right now, no british and french, fewer and fewer kings and dictators. the region can no longer be been managed vertically from the top down. it can be managed horizontally by the constituent communities on how to structure their own

social contract in a pluralistic way. that is a great challenge. that is not only true for the middle east, i think it will be true globally. it makes you appreciate our own pluralism, and we only need to look at ferguson, missouri to see that we are a work in progress. the fact that we have twice elected a black man who was middle name is hussein, who defeated a woman, that is something so far from so many other countries around the world. it is that canada pluralism that ultimately will be required to manage the region. it is not going to happen overnight. it will probably not happen in any of our lifetimes. it can no longer be managed from the top down. isis is what happens when you have a pluralistic region without tourism that can write a social contract. one group goes to the lunatic

fringe. we have to pull that back. it can only be done by the other groups coming together and writing that kind of social, horizontal contract living together as citizens. it will be hard. it will be necessary, but that sufficient, necessary ingredient will be a american leadership. >> i will echo that. none of that is going to happen without american leadership. i would also agree that it will take more than that. it will take what that leadership brings, in terms of buy in from others. it will take something that we always have in short supply, strategic patience. as tom says, this will be decades. we are going to have to stick with it. you don't get the kind of pluralism that tom talks about, and that we developed painfully in this country, without a lot of engagement and a lot of patience.

>> it seems to me -- as you talk about american leadership in dealing with nation states versus non-nationstates as we're dealing with here -- that the sunni-shiite difference is out in the open and is being bought as hard as i have ever seen before. it is so clear now. it is now being reflected into nationstates engaged in a battle for influence in the region. it becomes an honestly even more difficult. i also wonder and i asked this is a question, does president obama, who came to end war and

conflict in the middle east and afghanistan, does he have the kind of mindset that wants to exert this kind of leadership, even if he recognizes it is true, because of some essential mindset he has about how america has gotten mired down in the region to often before? tom? >> i think a legitimate critique from my point of view of obama is that he came to office, he ran on getting out of iraq, getting out of afghanistan. he won a mandate to do that. his mindset was all about getting out. it was not about getting out in a certain way, in a certain context that would leave something truly sustainable behind. he paid homage to that. he kept his cap to it. basically, he wanted out. i think that historians will

debate hard and long about whether we got out in the right way at the right time. now, that is one reason we are being sucked back in. >> reluctantly so. tom, you said we need a lot of nationbuilding back home. >> absolutely. i sympathize with the great we spent $2 trillion on this project. that is in afghanistan and iraq, not to mention the lives. there are schools in america that are not being built because they are still fighting over who is the heir to the prophet mohammed from the late seventh century. i understand and identify with that. it is finding the right balance in a world that is now so connected, where what happens there gets fell here. >> ryan? >> i agree much with what tom said. we have learned all too painfully that you do not in a war simply by leaving the battlefield.

other people take it over. i think what we are looking at in iraq reflects decisions that were made in 2010 and 2011. those in the consequences we have today. look, charlie, i was in the middle east for decades. i learned maybe two things worth passing on. they are real simple. the first is the careful what you get into. if you are talking about a military intervention, because it can have all kinds of unintended consequences. 30th and 40th order consequences that you can't plan for. the second thing i learned, be just as careful over what you propose to get out of. the process of disengagement can have consequences as grave as those as intervention. we did not do very well in iraq in either case.

>> let me just add to what ryan said, they are very good ones. when he is learned in his four decades there. i have been in and out of his office for four decades. i've learned two things too. the middle east only puts a smile on your face when it starts with them, when it started them, when they want it. camp david started -- israelis and palestinians got together a year before we found out about it. anbar had to start with the iraqi sunni tribes in wanting a new future. when they have ownership, then we can amplify, and we must amplify. the other thing i learned in 40 years there is that humiliation

is the single most powerful human emotion. we are dealing right now with a civilization that is struggling with modernity. in the arab-muslim world, how we partner with arabs and muslims to create the kind of context where they can feel successful, where young people can feel that they can realizable potential, which was what the arab spring was all about, where they could net realizable potential before. i think that is something that has to be central to our policy there. those are the two things that i have learned. >> tom friedman? >> he makes a great point on humiliation. there are a lot of good

historical reasons -- a sense of humiliation is deeply rooted in the middle eastern psyche. the obverse of that is that as we move forward, we need to keep that up front and central. to be aware of the legacy of humiliation and the importance of dealing with middle easterners on the problems with respect. >> what i'm come out with is respect, humiliation, and leadership. >> and ownership. >> and ownership. >> often on this program, people write me and say, i wish that the conversation that could be heard at the white house -- i don't know what the president is hearing -- i thank you for allowing the american public to hear this conversation at this time. both of you have my deepest thanks. >> thank you, charlie. >> thank you, charlie. it was a pleasure. ♪

>> whit stillman is here. he has been described as someone in his four films who has focused on the young, privileged class. his latest project is a pilot for amazon, "the cosmopolitans".

it follows young american expatriate as they search for love in a foreign city. here is a look. >> you have such trouble concentrating. >> i can't work when there's no one there. >> no, but i will consider it. >> no, not exactly good. >> when you say it was not wonderful -- when was that? >> i think i missed it. >> in miami. i just broke up with my boyfriend, so. >> when you have a serious breakup, negotiation is helpful. >> i am pleased to have whit stillman with us. welcome. >> thank you. >> what is the idea here?

how do you come to do it for amazon rather than someone else? >> that is thanks to amazon. i had a relationship with them. it is one of the first thing they did was option my film "metropolitan". they called me up and wanted the story set in paris. i had the material. i told him what i had. the first three films i made where the only expenses i had before moving to paris. suddenly in paris i was among amazing, interesting people. "the cosmopolitans" is a product of that. >> did you say you kept pitching films to be made with paris is a setting, and nobody wants to see a story in paris? grave my agent said that no network will set a story abroad.

i came back in 2008 and need a job. i needed work. i had some good stories. i pitched one to one of the big tv production companies. the idea was that we would set it in manhattan. we would take those characters and put them in manhattan >> but nobody has told that to woody allen, have they? >> wherever i went, woody allen had party spent all their money. [laughter] and they change the rules. americans can no longer be the director. >> so woody allen wrote different people? [laughter] that was the reason those movies got made. >> i admire the way he has been able to do that. he has been productive. >> what he is a businessman. >> every which way. >> what is it about paris, other

than that is conducive to a lifestyle that you find so comfortable? what's i was brought there. i was brought there by somebody else. once i was there, it's a very good writers town. it's not an accident. hemingway and fitzgerald liked being there. i guess that the prime time was before the 1929 crash. fitzgerald and hemingway in the 1920's. still to this day, different writers and directors go there, wes anderson, it is just a good place to write. the life is conducive to working several times a day to keep plugging at your writing. you can take off and do cafés in the evening. >> you say this film has no agenda. >> i thought that my other films

that each of a regenerate. people resist them, that was understandable. so barcelona was trying to convince people to go easier on americans abroad. i can't remember what the last days of disco was, but this is trying to tell the story about characters. >> adam brody -- he plays? >> he plays jimmy frederick trying to write other projects. >> who else is in the film? >> kerry macklemore. she is the girl and that's seen. i was able to get chloe sevigny in it. she kept that we kept asking good she found a way. there is a strong possibility that she will be a regular on the show.

there is a wonderful actor from sweden who plays the mysterious host of the party in the pilot he plays fritz. there is a great at sign active. he is really interesting. he went another career path. he was a cameraman during special effects and things like that. he was great to have on set. >> the deal with amazon is that they will test this pilot you gave them. if the test well, then they will give you a commitment to make 10 episodes or something like that? >> it is a situation now where they have cut back to maybe six episodes. i would not have to hire a lot

of writers. it is how they feel about the shows themselves. we are trying to get enough favorable attention to go ahead. >> what stories you want to tell? >> they are asking me that. i am supposed to turn something in. i am reluctant. i find that i have no good ideas until i have characters and scenes, things like that, in film and tv. there is a tendency where they want a summary of what you're going to do before you have done it. that is why you get these we shake, hackneyed, formulaic ideas. i don't know what the song that source will be. i have been fortunate making films about groups of people that i know well, who are very funny. the idea of "metropolitan" was that i fell in with a group of

very funny people. i was able to have those characters. this is true with "the cosmopolitans". these are true, exceptional characters. >> it has been said -- and i and taking this from things i have read, that "the cosmopolitans" has other qualities than that of a film. it has more of a mood. >> it does have that good i think it has characters to. it deftly has the look and the mood. >> what is the mood? >> it is something that i would call the nostalgia of the present. i think things get more romantic in the nighttime. it is not a fitzgerald novel. if there is something about the very dust magic of those romantic visions.

it is contemporary and has that sort of mood of romanticism. >> the interesting thing is that some people think of you and i think of ivy league, elitism, and you strongly reject that. >> i think some of that is the accident of the first film being about that very rarefied world. even the characters are only in that world for seven days, and they go on and do normal things. yes, i guess i am within a fishbowl. i am not seeing the pistol. maybe the people outside are more accurate. >> just to go back to "the cosmopolitans". here is a clip. ♪ >> some people killed to have this. it is really amazing.

>> can i still use the kitchen downstairs? >> they are to arrive at any moment. all i could do was nothing. [indiscernible] ♪ >> the theme of "the cosmopolitans" is romantic heartbreak. in this first episode, we have two heartbreak characters. there is how, who has been dumped. he claimed 17 times. his friends claim 30 times. then, there is this girl who has moved to paris. then there is the guy and a clip of feels uncomfortable having her in the apartment. she is in one of these tiny

maids rooms. she is really sad. in addition to that, there is also the things people go through. they think they are not going away to summer camp. they think they will never encounter loneliness again in life. if you can move to paris, and you think it is hunky door, and everyone moves out, then you confront total loneliness. there is no one around. it is the kind of thing that snowballs. if you start getting a converts about it, people lose their bearings. there are problems people are facing. >> you're worried about love and love loss? >> it is the theme song for this episode. it is the great motown song on what becomes of the broken hearted great it is one of my favorite songs. are we stopping brokenhearted would be a great team for a

movie or series. >> white you caught the brokenhearted? >> i like having things different. you change the name of the bit. >> who sang the brokenhearted? >> i think it was jimmy ross. they were two brothers. we have a wonderful version. she did a live person for the documentary of standing in the shadow of motown, the funk brothers. she did this incredible live version. it is nowhere available. she came in and saying it and it part of it in french. we have this cool bilingual version of what becomes of the brokenhearted. were trying to get amazon to release it as a single. >> will they? >> this is when vicki and aubrey talk about their express. >> you're not eating any of them.

>> no. >> are the old enough to put this together? did we come all the way to paris to be albuquerque? -- what about alabama? >> you have any ancestors who died in the war? yet, you're here now. all's well that ends well. >> you only date frenchman? >> never. >> your dad was a lawyer? he was a princeton graduate. >> no, he was at harvard. he wanted to go to princeton. his father would not let him.

>> how did he become a politician? he wanted to be. he was the last non-communist president of the student union. he was in jack kennedy's class. he was very strongly for kennedy and organize his campaign in new york state. then, he went to work for frankland eleanor roosevelt junior for the commerce department. fdr junior was the under secretary of commerce. my father worked for him. prior to that, he was working at fdr junior's legislative aide as a congressman. >> jack kennedy, west virginia, played a powerful role.

being a lawyer never killed to you? or a politician? >> i was having a feeling in my harvard interview -- the guy was totally bored with what i was saying. i was saying, i don't want to do this. i don't want to do what my father did. i want to write novels. >> that is calling falling upward. >> that was a great. of tv comedies, mary tyler moore, sanford and son, all in the family. i thought that was great. finally, i have a tv comedy on. >> some of your friends have

said about you that you see the world through the prism of the great gatsby. >> i think it is more this side of paradise. it is more juvenile romantic. >> all the characters in your novel are not indulgent, they are sending romantically. >> yes. you can wear those glasses. you can look at the world through a romantic lens. i think that the best model for a lot of us who are working in this area, because her other filmmakers are doing something girl out, is salinger. salinger brought comedy into the equation. the romanticism, pathos, and comedy. fitzgerald, it is purely -- a person we want to steal from. the the master is woody allen. >> when you learn from them? what his influences?

the whole space. the whole atmosphere. he created a whole space. >> to me about your future? how do you see it? >> i would like to do the next six episodes of this. i have another project to do with chloe sevigny. >> you're writing about love and friendship? >> it is called love and friendship. we are taking material that was unpublished. we adapted it for film. we hope to be shooting that in a beautiful location in ireland. she is the writer i most admire. >> because? characters? >> i think her humorous

humanity, her way of a training different character types in the actions between the character types -- is extremely moral. it is an enlightening and funny way. >> take a look at this. this is something called inside look. it is a teaser to attract people to your project. just to show you behind the scenes as well as the classic come out of a film. >> why wouldn't we? >> we are parisians. >> i worked with him on a film called "the last days of disco". we kept in touch over the years. greg sees that i have some things that i'm working on, would you like to work together. >> this character is one of the more glamorous characters. here i am in paris shooting with whit stillman.

>> terrible. >> playboy. >> i am the lead. what is your name? >> aubrey. >> and in the time. they take her. >> having the atlantic ocean between you can be very helpful. >> i play the character, jimmy. definitely romantic. >> what an angel. >> i'm playing a character who is kind of -- >> go, get out.

>> i did know you're bringing so many people. >> not so many. >> an apartment, house, or castle, whatever. >> i am trying to have a continuum from chapter to chapter. >> we will be on amazon. watching your computer. watching your television. >> they fall crazy out of love. >> you can find me and the other characters on "the cosmopolitans" on amazon. >> amazonoriginals.com. >> good luck. >> thank you. >> thank you for joining us. see you next time.

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>> live here in san francisco, welcome to "bloomberg west." i'm emily chang. a check of your top headlines. a new headquarters going to be built in san francisco. it has built a joint venture to build it in mission bay and 23,000 square feet. google reaches a deal with the f.c.c. and going to pay $19 million for unauthorized app purchases by kids on google play. google settled a similar suit