>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> we begin tonight's with the ongoing conflict in syria and iraq.

the obama administration had announced a coalition to combat isis cared they agreed that their goal is to destroyed the islamic militant groups and not to contain it. joining me from washington is robert ford. he has had a distinct career and the foreign service of the united states at last served as ambassador r to dsyria. he resigned in june because he felt he could no longer defend america's polity. welcome. >> nice to be with you. >> i ask this question. the president calls you and says, ambassador, i know you disagree with some of the things i have done in the past, but i'm in a place, in between a rock and a hard place. tell me what you think i need to know and tell me what you think i need to do. what would you say? >> i would tell the president

that, for sure, the options in front of him all are difficult and there is no easy choice but he should take heart that they have had some success in iraq in terms of finding friends on the ground. militia fighters. iraqi army fighters, special operations forces. people on the ground we can help and with a judicious use of american airstrikes, those friendly forces on the ground have been able to blunt the islamic state's advances. time, the president has said there must be a new government in iraq. if they want more american help, there needs to be a political politicalo the iraqi crisis. those elements, mr. president, are good elements. let's apply them in syria. the free syrian army.

let's help them, but let's understand that there is going to have to be a negotiation between the opposition and the regime to get a new government that ultimately will rally syrians to confront the islamic state. >> so, the president says, i hear you clearly, but isis has been achieving some victories, and yes, they have been stymied in iraq. but we know we have to get them in syria. the problem is, i cannot wait for there to be some agreement on a coalition government with assad leading the government. this is an emergency, and he west stop this now. >> it makes sense to me. what i would say is we want to blunt the worst of their advances right now in syria. the people that are fighting the

islamic state on the ground and fighting them hard are elements of the free syrian army that are fighting them in places like aleppo. let's get help to them. maybe that is where some of the airstrikes need to go. but, at the same time, let's insist if the opposition is going to get help from us, in return, we insist that they reach out and work for a political deal with the regime. we have to have both. >> so the president of syria of the the president united states, why should i negotiate in a moment of strength? i'm doing pretty well here. mood to negotiate myself out of power. >> there are two things back on that. first, in fact, there are lots of people inside the syrian regime that are starting to wonder about where assad is

taken them. many of the, his fundamental community, are asking themselves if they want to continue this on this war. -- this endless war. there is a protest movement the building among his supporter ranks. it's called "cry of the nation.: " a perfectot in position. second we can go back to the russians and to the iranians and look, we are willing to do more on the islamic state, but we, like you, a sustainable solution to this. we need a new government. we agreed on that in geneva. geneva did not go anywhere. let's find a formula to get back to a negotiation for a new government, even as we work to contain the islamic state now. >> so, one of the president

said, investor, i know how strongly you feel about the ev assad government, but isis is a bigger problem. and we really have to move rapidly. >> yeah. well, i think there are steps they are taking. some of them seem to be entirely appropriate in terms of lining up regional support to act against the islamic state. block up efforts to the flow of foreign fighters trickling into syria to join the ranks of the islamic state. looks spot on. if there are additional steps that regional governments can take to shut off money flows. looks spot on.so although, we have to understand the islamic state has oil wells others its own financing. but there are steps that can be taken now to reduce the power, to reduce the influence of the islamic state. by all means, let's work on that

now, but let's also understand that without boots on the ground, and they certainly do not suggest american boots on the ground in syria, without friendly boots on the ground, we are not going to be able to eliminate the islamic state. it did not work in iraq. it will not work in syria. "taking stock > there are people making this argument that cooperate with assad now. he's got troops on the ground. isis is his sworn enemy. let's do that now and we can do with the future later. what is the problem with that argument? >> there are many problems, but let's look at what happened in syria today and yesterday. most of assad's military forces are not hitting the islamic state. let me say that again. today and yesterday, most of the time over the last three and a half years, assad's military forces are not fighting the islamic state. they are fighting the free syria d army because assa

understands that that is where the threats to him politically comes from. so if you're going to align with overlook thee to cooperation that he and the islamic state have enjoyed for most of the last three and a half years. second point, and this is very important, assad's forces are tired. that is why they lost three big military bases in north- central syria inth the past month. that is why they're about to lose a big airbase. the idea that assad suddenly has military forces able to expel the islamic state. i do not see those forces on the ground. third point, the free syrian army is the one that is fighting islamic state hardest right now. they have fought them to a standstill in aleppo, which is better than any assad forces have done. i think in terms of sheer practicality, helping the people who have been fighting the islamic state daily since january makes the most sense.

i will not go into how if we lined up with assad it would be he and histo baghdad recruiting efforts because then he could say, the americans have anded with the assad iranian regimes. >> i hear you. in the end, is syria going to be divided? ,here will be a sunni region there will be something else. >> that is not hard to imagine. at minimum, i expect that what ever, over the very long-term, is agreed to politically between the opposing sides will involve a high measure of decentralization and local security. alewias part of the minority, i certainly would not b securityve sunni ara forces in my town. i would want people from ivillage, from my town in charge of security.

-- from my village. these are things that we have heard in iraq. that is what the sunni arabs are saying in mosul. these things are not secret. the way ford, the trick is getting people to the table. and the trick is getting people to come to deal. >> what role would you have the russians and the radiant place? -- the iranians play? >> i would like first to agree that the islamic state is a threat. shar militarily is not the way to go. i think the russians think bashar is the only means to contain the islamic state. i think, franco, the russians need to talk to the free syria army and understand better what they are. i've always encourage the free syrian army to go to moscow. they need to do more of that. i think theyians,

themselves, my sense is they have abandoned maliki when they understood he was not the solution to the islamic state problem. i think they must be looking at al-assad specially after the loss of those military bases and wondering, how long do we stay with us guy? but there was an alternative in iraq. the opposition and element of the alewi community need to think about alternatives. >> do most of the people that you know and respect share your view about the possibilities and the strength of the free syrian army? >> the people who follow this the most closely on the grou nd, who are looking at reports coming out of arabic media and talking to people on the ground, agree that the free syrian army is still viable. i was in detroit last week at the islamic society of north america, and there was a military analyst thre, jeffrey very respected.

he agreed that the free syrian army is viable and this is the best way forward, given the growing exhaustion inside the ranks of the assad regime. >> how serious a threat do you view it? >> i take with the director of the national center for counterterrorism says, that they do not have information about imminent strike, but i also read media, iabic social read threats from some of these fighters to go over there. boy, they do not mince words. they say, we're bringing jihad to the united states as soon as we are finished over here. i take them at their word. even if we do not have a problem today, i think we will have a problem. we have to deal with it. you speak the language, what has been the historic mistakes of the united states in the arab world? >> i think two things. fixt, a sense that we could all the problems. we can't.

the people who live there on the ground, who do not leave, who stay and live there, they have to fix the problems. and so, we should not have a sense of hubris about what we can achieve. we have to be realistic about that. when we do intervene, when we do get involved, again, why was talking about before the strategic patience -- i am always very pressed with the ira nians. they are very patient. extremely patient. >> you have got a lot of conflict over there. one, the conflict between iran and saudi arabia. iitehave to sunni-sh conflict, and others. can we ameliorate those? >> in some places weekend. in some places, we cannot. schism dates back 1400 years. i do not think the americans are going to solve that. although, we certainly do not

want to see it escalate -- >> and we have to understand and respect it. >> yeah, exactly. i have to tell you in my own career is someone working in the region for a long time, i underestimated the importance of that schism. it wasn't until i began working in iraq that i began to see how deep of important -- and how important that schism is. in many cases, i think the americans can play a useful role. look at how we helped facilitate the peace accord between egypt and israel, which has served both countries and served us. we played a helpful role, for example, with jordan and israel, concluding a peace agreement. certainly, we have helped iraqis move forward in the post-saddam period developing a constitution and holding elections. and so, there are things we can do, but sometimes the cost is very high and we do not see quick results. >> if we line up with iran and

shia sponsored malicious, does that hurt us? >> it goes back to what i said about, i do not think has a lot -- hezbollah is going to travel hundreds of miles each into eastern syria from lebanon. i do not think they're going out there. tobollah is now having recruit kids that are 16 years old. they have never done that before. they are not happy with that. . so, i would not depend on them. and the same thing with the iranians. ranians have got their arms fulls in iraq. >> what you see as the developing relationship bet betwen the u.s and iran? >> the nuclear issue is a huge obstacle to developing a relationship. in some places, there may be

security interest we share. for example, the islamic state, but if we are concerned about iranian efforts to become a ofional hegemon, because its nuclear program, then we are not going to be able to work with them on other regional the admin session has placed a priority on getting a solid -- the administration has placed a priority on getting a solid deal on nuclear enrichment. >> and what role does the absence of any kind of success in creating a palestinian state that does not threaten israeli security play in this conflict? >> in general, the arab- palestinian dispute does not figure highly in the syria-iraq dispute, except one thing. i keep going back to this about the recruitment at extremist groups like al qaeda and the islamic state use. they use that altar time, that we are the ones that are going

to liberate palestine. the americans have no credibility. they are israeli puppets. more broadly speaking in the morocco to from oman, there are a lot of people, especially the younger generation that i would meet who, when i would tell them i'm from the united states embassy, even if they did not slap me over the head, there was an element of dissatisfaction that there had not been the establishment of a palestinian state. i would not say it was their number one concern. i would not. but is it a concern and is it a source of dissatisfaction? absolutely. >> how concerned are you about libya? >> i do not know that much about libya, frankly, but i think it shows how difficult it is when ifse military regimes fall you do not have a political

andess in place, a durable sustainable political process, how bad things can become. so, when we think about a place like syria and compare it to iraq. in iraq there is a political process. it is not fun to watch all the time, but it is there. now, iraqis are negotiating a new government. so, there is a process. if and when -- if and when assad goes, there has to be a political process in place to develop the new government. that is just essential. i think that is the message we have to deliver clearly to the russians and the iranians. this is not about toppling the assad regime. i never thought we could topple the regime. this is about getting to a negotiation. >> and you think assad is willing to negotiate? >> no, i don't. but i do not think -- but i

himk people who support think that a negotiation will be the best way in this messy attrition where 12% of the population -- do not bet on them in a war of attrition. >> those people are still in syria? and have influence? >> they cannot raise their heads very high out of the foxhole or the regime will c hop them off. this week,earlier was arresting a number of young people who had been considered supporters of the assad regime a nd now are voicing dissent. arrested.immediately so the track of this with the free syrian army is for them to put forward a proposal that alewis can look at and begin to get a sense that there is a third way, that the choice is not limited to assad or the islamic state. that there is a third way.

beenu must have enthusiastic when you saw what happened in tunisia and in cairo and there was arab spring coming and mistakes may have been made here or there in terms of how we support a certain regimes and did not support certain regimes, but when the history comes to be written about what happened to the arab spring, what do you think it will say? >> i do not think the arab spring is finished yet. this is a process. in tunisia, they've had a lot of ups and downs. they have even had assassinations committed b y extremists. the party with the largest bloc in the parliament, the muslim brotherhood, backed off. voluntarily gave up the prime minister position and other senior positions in government and created a new government, which has produced constitution with wide approval. on elections,ed and even agreed on an election process. so, tunisia, later this auto, wi

mn, will have elections. there is something to be hopeful about there. one of the things i think the arab world needs to see is a good success story. nowadaysstruck how young people from morocco to saudi arabia are on the internet, they are on twitter, they are on facebook, they are and watching what is happening in countries next door and farther down. they pay attention to this. and even a small country like tunisia can have a big impact. so, i do not say it is easy. i do not say is going to be fast. remember what i said about patients. but it is possible to imagine that step-by-step some of these countries are going to move in the right direction. >> investor for -- ambassador ford, it is a pleasure to have you on this program. >> it was my pleasure, charlie. thank you. >> we will be right back. stay with us.

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hegeneral tony zeni is here. has served as commander-in-chief of u.s. central command and special envoy under george w. bush. he retired in 2000 as a four-star general after a 40 year military career.

he examines u.s. foreign-policy and proposes changes the way we approach the decision to wage war in a new book. areore the first shots fired, how american to win or lose on the battlefield -- off the battlefield." let me talk about where we are today in so many crisis. i will incorporate the book as you wish. so, the president is in europe and is having conversation with, about ukraine and about isis. the me wha tyot you think president ought to be thinking about the decisions he should make. >> given where he is in wales and with nato, this is a crucial moment. the definition of what nato is is something that we have not dealt with since the end of the cold war. the thingsecause of you mentioned, the isis crisis and ukraine -- >> part of the reason for nato's

existence was the cold war. >> and never really redefined itself. i think if you look at putin, he is testing two things. one is, how substantial is american leadership in europe? is it still the same? are we still the powerhouse of nato? i think he was a push and see if that really is still -- still exists. >> he may think and he wants to find out whether the united states has the same influence with angela and other leaders in europe who form the nato -- >> that is the second part of this. what is the degree of european cohesion, resolve and will? and so right now, what comes out of this nato conference will define a. if he sees nato as standing strong, they are willing to holster their military capability, because it has waned. these countries have not lived up to their -- it is a military alliance, not clinical alliance.

s the u.s.e sht is still inflammation. there will be nato exercises. there is no military solution to ukraine. nato will make a statement through assistance to ukraine. then i think you will see him look for a way to ratchet this down and away to ease out of this. then i think that diplomacy that toows for a face-saving way ds blake this will be key -- to de-escalate this thing will be key. >> what do you think will happen? >> i want to say that maybe isis and ukraine have sobered the europeans. withoutt have been, those two crises, less apt to demonstrate that kind of solidarity and renew the commitment. i think maybe that is happening. i'm listening to david cameron and others on the news. it seems that there's a

realization that they have to take a stand and make this commitment. so, i will be optimistic and say it will look strong and make statements and make the commitments that we need. but i think it is going to be tough to. and from it waned over time, ever since the end of the cold war. it has become more of a political alliance. even in afghanistan, there were a lot of problems with the ability to deal with the military side of things out there in isaf. putin laid his hand well? kbgb, he's an old guy. he is very heavy-handed. he is playing to his old constituency. inside russia, there is a sense of nationalism and bitterness. you have to realize the entire warsaw pact was stripped away in ornato without any reason rationale. so there is some sort of resentment that still exist and

probably is partially the reason a guy like putin was able to rise to power in russia. >> and it is a point that he has made over and over, the worst life was the dissolution of the soviet empire. while he does not intend to rebuild that empire, he wants to regain some russian influence. >> and remember, historically, russia has been paranoid about its borders, its flanks. from napoleon to two german invasions, they have need to have buffer states. >> for good reason. >> even in their seven, and central asian, their southern flank, the old persian empire. there was an conquest that took place. it is ingrained that you have to have a set of states that are least neutralor at or from a toward russian and the west both. but to have them write up on your borders an entire set of states that are oriented the

other way, or in their version the wrong way, is something that is very difficult for russians to accept. and now ukraine. >> now ukraine in stock about, let's rejoin nato. >> we have to be careful with that because there is an article that says an attack on one is an attack on a all. the president is very careful to say this is not an invasion. if there is nato membership, there is a commitment that you better be willing to stand up to. >> isn't that true about the baltic countries? that is what he had to do when he was over there. >> he went to reassure the baltic countries. >> if you are attacked by russia, nato will stand by you. >> nato needs to stand behind this. it is the car before the horse. wales, making sure that nato lives up to it. it is not just saying the words. it is committing the portion of your budget to your defense and

your military. that has fallen off since the end of the cold war. their military capabilities, their budgets have been dropping. we think ours have dropped. if you look at the u other nations in europe, the military spending has gone way down. this would have to be a major shift in the way they looked at their own military capability. s. is it a realityo of u. government today, that because of china being more aggressive, that all of a sudden the whole world, what the united states that they were tying to do was reduce the pentagon budget? at we find ourselves in series of circumstances where we will have to increase the budget, whether it is ukraine, china, basis, afghanistan -- isis. >> i think there are two things that are going to have to happen. obviously, we can only afford what we can afford. the first 20 say that as a military person. eisenhower was concerned because 50% of the federal budget and his time went toward national security. now it is around 15% and

dropping. is oure right level is durable. there needs to be strategic decision, where you invest the money, what kinds of military capability. more than just the amount is where you accept risk and where will you not accept risk. the condition in the world and all these crises we see will require us to rethink some of the cuts we are taking. one of the things is in ground forces. we seem to think that they can be a big bill payer. there is paranoid about boots on the ground. you are going to have to put it on the ground in some circumstances, and you had better make sure they are capable. it is not an investment totally in technology. if you are going to control people and control terrain, as they say in the military, you need ground forces. >> you are the first author who i read who has said that the way you do, which is we are paranoid about ground forces because of the losses in iraq and afghanistan and in other experiences we have had, but you

are saying we have to face the reality of ground forces. mostny ways, that is the expedient way to achieve the objective. >> look at desert storm. we put overwhelming ground forces on the ground. that was the powell/weinberger doctrine. we had 146 deaths. we resolved that in a matter of hours. now, if you are the families of the 146, that is a tragedy. but when you look at the numbers and the speed at which we resolved the situation, overpowering ground force. look at iraq. rumsfeld threw away the plan 380,000 troops. not to take down the regime and the republican guard, to seal the borders, control the population, prevent looting and prevent ethnic and religious -- it has to be a true occupation. you overwhelm it. this is colin powell. this is casper weinberger. overwhelm it. shorter timere a to regain stability, and there will be less casualties.

the same thing in afghanistan. remember, al qaeda got away. >> you still have a lot of friends who you talk to about national security. what do they tell you about the president? >> he's viewed as weak. whether that is a perception or reality. >> is is reality -- is it realiy? there's confusion. we hear from the secretary of state and this secretary of defense strong statements but not quite as strong from the president or the vice president. the vice president comes on a lot stronger. >> this morning saying, we are at -- the gartes of hell. >> that is an element in this. he seems very deliberative. exudesn't seem to confidence. as i say in the book, one of the key things is the need to win the battle of the narrative. so, whether it is you versus because we have

different audiences, so the message may not be the same. the bully pulpit is critical. we have seen masters of that and ronald reagan and fdr and the fireside chat. it is what i call the my fellow american speech. you have got to give them. has to be given in clear, concise terms. it has got to give in and the in which you appear decisive. i often quote my daughter. she says in her president she wants to see her father and the white house. not me, but she wants the idea of a father in the white house. everything is ok and dad's in charge. >> she would probably like to see da in the white house. >> i think she is smarter than that. >> what is the threat of isis? and how should we meet the threat, and what would you do and recommend the president do? >> the threat is they can destabilize iraq quickly. they cannot take baghdad, but they can infiltrate it, create violence and chaos that it would basically affect iraq. i would worry now that --

>> iran would not let it happen. >> in the shia areas. iraq, i worry about how you're going to put this back together again. rds have gone their own way. there is still an issue of the sunni provinces and what will happen there. so, they have to be questioned back -- pushed back. we cannot dither around. the near genocide, what we see on tv and the beheadings, that requires an immediate risk of. they need to be pushed out of iraq. -- that requires an immediate response. this new government in iraq, we maliki, which is good. but this government has work to do. if those provinces do not feel like they have been included. if this government is not included. if there is not more equity in the sharing of resources and the distribution of authority -- tight, and it

became shia-dominated -- if we do not get that you will get -- not get the sunni buy-in. >> that does not mean that they're going to buy in to isis? >> all isis needs is fear, apathy, or support from the population. have to give them an alternative or that is going to be, no man's land isis itself cannot have a sanctuary. syria cannot be essentially. so i think we need to carry the attacks wherever isis is. >> in what way? >> air attacks. intelligence focus so we have good targeting. there might be special operations. >> we have special operations doing that now. don't you assume that? >> i would assume there's some, but i think there has to be more intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance going on both on the ground and through our technological capabilities. >> would you put boots on the ground? >> if it came to to get them out

of iraq immediately, not to go into syria, i would. put two days on the ground at right away and you would have them -- two brigades on the ground right away and you would have them out lickety-split. maybe 10,000 men. close air support, fixed wing. >> even have them out in two weeks? >> easily. >> for them to go to syria where they had their training, what circumstances would cause you to go into syria? >> i would avoid going in on the ground in there -- >> because? because you are invading the sovereignty of syria or what? >> because the colin powell pottery barn theory. you break it, you own it. i do not want to own syria. >> the president has basically

said, right after he said he has no strategy, they amended to say, we have not decided what to do about syria. >> let's put together in pieces. the priority right now is to get isis out of iraq. and second to that, is to bolster the kurdish forces, the iraqi military. we are going to have to revamp the training and the motivation. the third thing is the iraqi government, a lot of pressure on this new government to offer an alternative to the sunnis. you may have to pieces country together in a different form. it may look were like the united arab emirates, where the kurds and the sunni and shia provinces up together in less formal way to retain some sort of federal system. but a degree of autonomy that goes down. the iranians will take care of the shia side. the west loves the kurds. maybe the sunnis would adopt the

sunni area. they have sponsors. then, the other part of that is the creation of the coalitions. you need a un resolution. i do not know what we're waiting for. that authorizes use of force against isis. the first thing he did before he wanted to take out saddam hussein, was to get that resolution. we created that islamic coalition that worked under -- with general source cough. schwartkoff. even japan and others contributed. that gives them -- gav e them the genesee. that is important for stability, to isolate the problems in syria . we do not need another sanctuary in syria. you will have to target isis, and you'll have to go after their capabilities through intelligence, special operations and strikes. then encouraging them free syria

n movement to fill that vacuum that you can create with isis. i have a feeling syria is going to divide up. i've a feeling the christian and alewi areas are going to be what they are. assad is not going ntto fall. maybe the other areas will be more contentious because of the more radical units, which i think we have to help reduce, and then the more moderate that you would hope take charge. thehat would you like for president, what chapter to read and terms of the crisis he faces now? >> the chapter on how the analysis is done and advice is given. i did a lot of historical research on how the eisenhowers and fdrs and trumans and others put their devices together, how ed, intelligence was weigh leading up to position. for the president, that is the critical moment. i can go back to george w. bush. i do not think he heard all the

voices. i do not think there was a clear analysis of what the potential problems were. eisenhower brought in -- >> this is a great story. group, he metm with the secretary of state when he first came in in the solarium in the white house and he said he would like to form a small group of heavy thinkers. the george kennans of the world. there were some pentagon to star generals who respected. they had differing opinions. he said, when even a crisis, i want this group to meet her and i want them debate and argue in front of me. eisenhower never asked a question or made a comment. he did not want to influence it. he took notes. that was his method. you see other methods that relied on individuals -- the kissingers. bc others that use the cabinet. i think george h.w. bush with scowcroft as his national security adviser with james baker and dick cheney and powell, very strong cabinet that

really came together as a team. whatever method you choose, first of all, have a degree of expertise that is at a level anywhere, be topped some real thinkers with a lot of experience. second of all, invite in opposition voices. hear all sides. weigh them carefully. third, and maybe this is the most important, do not try to cherry pick the intelligence. the intelligence community in my experience, they will answer the question you ask. if you ask a question in a certain way, you may not get the best answer. imagine if george w. bush said to george tenet, do you think i will have the justification for this invasion, this act of war in iraq based on wmd? that might be a different answer than because george tenet said later, we never said the threat was imminent. the inspector said there was no evidence of an ongoing program and there was no evidence. but if the question is, can you give me something to base this

on? then they grab at stars and they give you something -- they grab at straws and they give you something. >> i'm a theory which says that often questions are more important than the answers. absolutely. i had a director of intelligence when i was a commander of centcom, an army two star general, i asked him a question. answer thatore yoi question, can you tell me why you're asking it? my answer is, i got four stars, you got two. give me the answer. he said, that may not be the best answer. if i do not know what you're thinking and what this may be the basis for, the action it may take, i cannot be very effective. that struck home. that was the best advice i had. be a bettere might answer. you might not be asking the right question. and he has to help you frame the right question. as your director of operations

at the political level. >> there is also a danger of paralysis. >> yes. cautious.beomccome so >> debate until the cows come home. >> i think little bit of that is going on right now. always shoot the wolf on the sled first. do not worry about the ones in the wood line. >> the book is called "before the first shots are fired." back in a moment. stay with us. ♪ joan rivers, one of america's great comediennes, died on thursday. she was 81. joan rivers had been laced in a medically induced coma after going into cardiac arrest during a procedure on her vocal cords. the brooklyn native began as a standup comedian in new york city in 1965. she appeared on "the tonight show."

johnny carson told her, you are funny. you are going to be a big star. he selected her as her first -- st. first permanent guest ho throughout her career, joan rivers worked tiresomely at her craft, constantly reinventing herself and she had acted and directed and she became a regular presence on red carpet. aside from a television series books.she authored 12 still, she continued to do standup. no topic was off limits. she poked fun at everyone from elizabeth taylor to nancy reagan to anne frank. comedy she once said is my drug of choice. what pleasure you feel when you have kept people happy for an hour and a half. they have forgotten their trouble. it is great. joan rivers appeared on this program for times and hear our moments from that conversation. what is it about you you think that gives you this tenacity to

bounce back? fear? >> truly. you know this business. the tenacity is i never thought that i'm so terrific that anything is beneath me. i am a star, i do not do that. that has never been in my mind. that is number one. number two, i have to make a living. i go to make a living. and this is what i do. i am for hire. i love my work. i love my work. i stand on the street when they're filming a commercial and i watch it. i am still struck. >> your father was a physician. so, you came from money -- >> yes, upper-middle-class, the country club, the private

schools. >> no experience in show business at all. >> my father had a patient that was a hooker. she would say, i am an actress. my father. said to your father, i am going to be an actress. >> he said to my mother, she wants to be a hooker. little did they know. i could not have made $2.00. i was not attractive enough. so, they were very against it. in 1958, my sister was the only girl in the class at columbia law school. if i said to them, as a phi beta cappa, i want to go on and be a rocket scientist they would've said. here is the money. study forever. but here is a child is smart that is saying, i want to be in show business. you can't! you will ruin your life! which i probably would've said to my daughter. >> you are ruining your life. yet, nothing -- >> woody allen.

barbara streisand. richard prior. george carlin. but before they were.. do you understand my mother and larchmont with her country club ladies. i would like you to meet the gnaang. i don't blame them. looking back. but i wanted it more than life itself. >> why did you want more than life itself? >> i never wanted anything else. the minute i could put a thought together, it was show business. i never wanted anything ever in my life. >> you are on for carson six times. >> seven times. >> would you audition and say not -- and they say, not yet. >> they would audition you and say, not yet, not funny. >> would johnny come?

>> no. all the others would come. the assistance, the secretaries. finally i was on because bill cosby got on. we had the same manager. and phil pushed, give her a break. how bad could she be? >> how bad could you be in four minutes? >> they put me at the end of the show. and they brought me on as a writer. carson said to me, you are going to be a star right on the air. >> how did you feel? >> you did not realize what was happening. it was too exciting. the next day went to the bank to kite a check. the girl -- the check. there will be a check from nbc. and the teller said to me, i saw you last night.

you were funny. we will do it. i knew my life was changed forever. >> what was it about the marriage to edgar that was so affirming, even though it had its ups and downs? >> i can look at it now five years later after dating everything, good, bad, garbage, nice, euro trash -- >> did you find anything you like? >> every now and again for a moment. the loyalty, the honor, the friendship. someone that you return your back on and you turn back again. still there. my husband. i never, ever thought for a second about my husband not being there. and that is what i miss more than anything else. >> you have not found anyone else like that? d affection, fun and people that are darling to go out with, but i'm talking about when the chips are down, he will be there. >> when you look at all the things, what is the biggest

regret? >> the it is regret? -- the biggest regert? i do not think i have anything. is that wonderful? go through every door that opens. truelly. >> you would rather to have said yes than no. you would not have slept with anybody just for a job? >> i'm talking about actors that hit on me. and you go, should have gone with him. dead. too late. >> what is the best piece of advice in this book? >> two. on make lists about the positive in your life. e is affronted by the minister said, yesterday is history. tomorrow is a mystery. today is gods gift. that is why it is called the present. and i know it and it's corny. but i know your life is awful,

but you're still wearing shoes. you still have an apartment, your husband is still with you. you still have everything working. you are not ill. looking for positives in your life. that is one very important thing which people forget. for theis is oky,, god, moment. the second big piece of advice -- laughter, laughter, laughter. when you laugh, it makes everything heal. never go to a funeral and say, don't laugh. thank god you are laughing, celebrate. >> she is survived by her daughter melissa and her grandson cooper. joan rivers at age 81. ♪

[applause] ♪