>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> mikhail khodorkovsky is here. he was until recently, russia's most famous prisoner. president putin pardoned him in

december, after more than 10 years of imprisonment. he was an oligarch who became wealthy in the era of soviet crony capitalism. when masked men arrested him, he was russia's richest man and the chairman of yukos oil. he and his partner, platon lebedev, were convicted of charges of tax fraud and embezzlement in two widely criticized trials. amnesty international declared them prisoners of conscience trapped in judicial cortex the answer to political, not legal consideration. his story has come to symbolize russia's turn to authoritarianism under putin. in an impassioned closing arguments following his second trial, he told the judge, "your honor, much more than our two fates are in your hands. here and now, the fate of every citizen in our country is being decided." he has lived in self-imposed exile in switzerland since his release. last month, he relaunched his open russia foundation and seeks to start a civil movement to challenge putin's grip on power.

i am pleased to have mikhail khodorkovsky at this table for the first time. welcome. >> hello. >> i look forward to this conversation since we met seven months ago. tell me where you are today in your life as you see it. >> i have tried in the past few months to deal with some of the main tasks i had to deal with in my family. unfortunately, part of these decisions were not in human hands, but i still had the opportunity to say farewell to my mother and of course, that was a big humanitarian gesture on the part of the russian authorities. that is not usually in its traditions.

now, i consider i am ready to start the next stage of my life. >> which would be? >> i have finished with business. i consider that i have achieved what i wanted to achieve. the plans that i had. now i can move on to civic activity. i consider it civic activity as i have before even though many in russia call it a political activity. i do not object. if you think i am dealing politics, you may do so. >> how would you define the specific things you plan to do now? now, the situation in russia is not a very simple. theseonsequence of all of thatnal socialistic moods

have arisen in the country. a large part of the people have moved over to the side that is ac life in the way that the current regime sees it. those people who see the situation in another way have now been the minority. duringery important that which this situation will continue in public consciousness, it is important that it is a minority would not feel itself alone. people in moscow, people gather in a large marches for peace. and people can feel they are shoulder to shoulder with somebody who inc. like them. if you take smaller towns, the situation there is different. , theask of the movement

organization that i have created a to help people, who hold pro-european approach. who are in favor of a lot based state in russia -- law-based state in russia. know the want to answer to this question -- would you go back to russia and would you challenge putin? i am doing in any case is regarded by the current regime as a challenge. i do not know whether vladimir putin feels this challenge today. whole,ime, as a certainly feels of this challenge. when we see this conducted our first conference. we can -- we conducted in eight

cities. all of the groups that took part were invited to the local and that conducted so-called prophylactic meetings with them. choosinghe question of the most effective place for doing what i want to do. if i returned to russia, i would immediately of course turn up under house arrest, not in prison. there is a new practice that russian authorities put to their opponents under house arrest. every six months, areat -- our investing organs extend the term of the investigation of one of ukos criminal cases. if i returned to russia, i would not be free to act.

it is more convenient for me to act from abroad. >> is there anything in your pardon that prevents you from returning? wayyou make a deal in any that you promised not to return to russia? no, idea not take any augmentations like of that upon myself. i spoke about how i indeed needed to leave the country. my mother was undergoing medical treatment. no obligations to not to return. i did not take anything like that on a myself. in my first press conference i wouldhen i was asked if i return, i would like to address this to the russian authorities. there is a decision and court of human rights that acknowledges

unlawful the financial claims against me and the other basis of the financial claims there is a legal opportunity if i returned to russia to not let me back out. and so remove those. a session of the russian federation supreme court took and the european court of human rights decision and that of platon lebedev was refused. is against what is written in our constitution. our constitution said a decision of an international court is binding and our country as a higher force. nevertheless, the authorities let me know and no uncertain terms that if i returned to russia i would not remain free.

>> they want you not to come back by threatening few you would be under arrest because they have these other possible litigations, correct? >> yes, exactly. i do not know what specifically they will come up with. they have let me know in no uncertain terms it is not over. >> there are those who would like you to become a sort of mandela. a person, let's been in prison and comes back and a leading your country in a different way. isn't that a mental you want to put on your shoulders? ndle that youma want to put on your shoulders? that mikhail khodorkovsky has come back to save his country and safe other russian disside nts.

it could be somewhat more ambitious than what i am capable of doing. is inthout a doubt, there russia and large component of my citizens whose -- interest i would like to defend and i would like to do that. these are those fellow citizens a mine, who are in favor of pro-european russia. in ourre not that many country. unfortunately, they are not unified. they are not in single political force capable in those cases when we are talking about the interests of this group of people of jointly standing up for the interests.

i am going to try to do something about this. whether i succeed or not, i do not know. >> do you have huge sums of money? did you put away a lot of money because you knew the state might come down on you? my question is, are there billions of dollars that you may have axes to that you can use and whatever political ambitions in half? >> i have enough money although billions of dollars is not a sum like this. i have enough money to feel myself independent. at the same time, i will consider incorrect to use the money that i have an order -- in order to -- solve political problems.

first of all, it would be anderous for my supporters people who think like me because --the authorities could have could apply sanctions toward them. incorrectle, it is when people resolve general political goals without putting their own resources into the solutions. if there is a task that people feel needs to be solved, they give money for this. if people are not giving the money for solving a particular task, that means that task is not important for the people. >> is your argument with the russian system or vladimir putin? >> i consider the current problems of russia do not have to do only with a specific person, with putin. he is without a doubt a

representative of this system. he is without a doubt, a cornerstone around which the system is being focused more and more. this is is fundamental instability. the problem is not just him. the problem is that russian not -- is not formulated the question properly for itself. , if not putin, then a who? -- then who? beyond the scope of discussion on the system is self. if it not putin, then what? is a normal law based state with separation of powers, a transfer of powers to local government authorities.

the government closest to the people. is regular elections to replace people in power through honest elections. if putin would agree to follow this path, which i really doubt, thentill, if he did agree, there would be no personal aspects for me with this. >> in you have told me before you do not hate? say i i naturally cannot love him. i have good feelings about him. it is harder for me to feel good about a person or send me to jail for 10 years. am perfectly ready to leave all of these questions discussion.scope of

unfortunately, if i leave it out of discussion, we are still left with a problem that is not been .olved putin does not want to give away power through honest elections. thing?power is his >> well, i do not think that was the case initially. dug himself into a situation where it is hard for him to leave power safely. add he has created in his he this notion that power in the country equals him. power are good fortune for russia. and i think that is a mistake. prison, how deep

is the fear of going back to prison to you? you have then there. -- you have been there. they robbed you of 10 years with your family. you of the things beyond the things you had to endure. talk to us about what you lost in 10 years. >> well, of course, the human 50e between age 40 and age is not the worst part of one's life. ad one could have spent it in lot better way. between when my -- oldn were 4 years ago

and a 15 years old. a time i would have loved to spend with them. spent with them. my wife, my parents would have liked to see me more frequently. then the time is they were allowed to do this in jail. i am not talking about myself probably inecause i this whole system, i was probably the most stable element. i feel very bad for my family. i feel very bad for the family.

loss that theys bore over this 10 years is something that cannot be returned despite the fact i am going to do everything to .omehow return it but still, that is life. the 10 years in the terms of the physical toll on you, was their torture? you talked about how cold it was. yes? >> yes, of course. the russian prison is not to be [indiscernible] even in the 10 years that i spent within their walls, things improved. only very recently this year was there a law adopted, at the least it is passed that makes up

the situation of prisoners worse. it allows the security to beat them without any control. but still, this is not to be gulags. -- the gulags. i was able to position myself in such a way in prison that people treated me with sufficient respect. nevertheless, for this and not dealfor this, but i had to with the problems in jail through resistance. in prison, is there is only one game you can play. that is in your life. if you take -- if you do a hunger strike, it means is you either put your life on the line or they do not take you seriously. if you have put your life on a

the line and you have not held out to the end, that is it. you are a nobody. . had to do this 4 times i very carefully picked my battles. like any normal person, i did not want to die. i was prepared to go all the way each of the time and my opponents understood it. they did compromise with me. >> what did they compromise on? lazy stage itmost -- link be stages -- lengthy stages of resistance was my former employee who was ill with aids and they refuse to transfer him to a hospital. i and other people, it was not just me, but we managed to get

him moved to a hospital. there was also a very difficult situation when platon lebedev was thrown into the dungeon and we were told he would sit there forever. there were a couple of other when theresituations was no way out except for to do this. that is normal in jail. >> there were others who participated in hunger strikes when you were there, not just you? >> of course. how --hard for me to say to what extent these people were ready to go all the way. us.ver told anybody to join

it is an extremely personal attitude. >> how did you get to the point you were willing to put your life on the line? how did you come to the moment that you said, i have to do this? i believe that there is someone who stands above us. higher than us. i believe at some moment, we all an answer forive what we have done or not done before him. has -- he doeshe not have a good attitude towards suicide. i needed to know, will he understand why i did this or not?

when i felt he would understand me, i put my life on the line. >> what was the longest hunger strike? >> the usual one was somewhere around 10 or 11 days. days.s unannounced 28 but the toughest one was not that. the toughest was the six day dry hunger strike without a drinking also. i thought after six days, i thought the end was it near. >> in you were at peace with yourself? >> i was not afraid anymore. it is interesting. later, after the authorities did compromise, i had to force

myself to start drinking again. i did not want to drink. a dry hunger strike is when you refuse to drink. on the sixth day, you do not want to drink. >> what are you feeling? >> hallucinations. , they releasedrs you. you talked about this before but not on american television. what the weather conditions, how did they come about? you were discovered you would be leaving. talks goingat our on because my lawyers were telling me. tv, i heard putin's talk on

there was a tv in the camp. the people who signed him with me told me that. then the top was about when wastop was about -- talk about when it happened. i was convinced it would take place quickly. i knew the style that our authorities functioned in. morning:00 a.m. in the and i was woke up and told that a car had a come for me and i was about to be transported. the person who came for me told me that even though he is formally taking me for transport to another facility, he said in the evening, you would be at home. he did not know i was a being deported to germany. >> that is where your mother was? time, my mother had gone through the first stage of

treatment and had returned to russia. they nevertheless deported me to germany. hat's -- that is a bureaucratic name if you will. >> what role did the germans play? >> i think they played an important role because there was not any one single reason why putin decided to release me. had the alternative, he could release me or start up a third criminal trial against me. it is a very small window of opportunity when putin was thinking about the olympics and crimea, which was nowhere on the horizon. monthsse -- in those two

that -- the fact we were able to use the two months that we had thanks to people from germany, and angela merkel. >> there were times you could've come out earlier. all you had to do was say, i am guilty. >> they offered. nobody ever talked about anything with me. i was told publicly many times and wants even president hooton presidentblicly -- putin said it publicly that if mikhail khodorkovsky admits his guilt, we will positively examine the question of his release. >> who did he say that to?

that?u follow up on did you simply dismiss that at hand because you would never admit guilt? never even started discussing it. clemency or pardon that got you out? , authoritiesr recognize your mother's illness. the humane thing to do -- that> or did they want you out of russia? >> it was a humanitarian gesture. that for thehink authorities, it was not very acceptable to release me after of my term.

scott free without obligations and yet they were not comfortable with starting up a because the society, nobody in society was looking at this as something just and fair anymore. in this situation when, on the one hand, you do not want to release a person without any strings, just want the term ends. on the other hand, you do not want to start up an unpopular case, the humanitarian aspect became a good way out for everybody. if ied to understand that after theed in jail start of the crimean events,

then of course, i would remain there for life. >> why is it that? because you would speak out? >> of course i would not have kept silent. but because the authorities in a withtion when relations the west are already torn up has no point in having yet another headache in the person of me at large. this in ad me conversation we had that someone from the outside said and correct me if i do not remember this correctly said, you have to come to this point. you have to assume you will never get out. that is the mindset you have to have. only then can you survive. correct?

tothis was my approach psychological survival. myself, i am here for good. lifee got to deal with my invalid,fe of an limited, restricted. with more freedom that somebody who is sitting in a hospital bed. i said there are people who have survived with only one finger that moves. they have made scientific discoveries, how am i worse? >> there is also this. when the second trial came out,

i quoted from that. many people look at that as the most eloquent thing you ever said. what went into that public statement at the time in which you defiantly spoke to putin and the russian system? >> i spent a lot of time about what i should say because i understood that i am in prison for good. say woulder i would .ake no difference on my fate point, i decided i wanted people to understand why i am choosing such a fate, the

fate i have chosen. it was very important that i be understood because i had friends at liberty and children out at liberty and family out at the , willy and i did not know i have another opportunity to tell them directly? so i said what i thought, what i consider. i tried to make it so people would understand me. it seemed like ike seceded after this. i succeed -- it seemed like succeeded at this. ♪

>> when you came out, there were those who wondered about what the arrangement was, wondered whether eu would come back to russia and if you would be politically active. you said it you would fight for the liberation of prisoners and you wrote a book about it but because he saw experiences in a that it demanded that you do something.

you saw people ready to commit suicide. people had everything taken away from them and did not have the strength perhaps it you did. why now? why not immediately when you came out of prison? topite the fact you wanted get to know your family again. was it anything else? , when i got out of jail, about all ofy told the understandings and grievances i had and all i had written to president putin. anything and ial said everything totally publicly. in particular i said i asked for time until the end -- the formal

release date to spend that time with my family. know whether this was important for putin or not, but if i asked for this time for did, i intended to and i on what ipecifically said i would. this, my family was thatis, this obligation that i took upon myself. >> there are those who look at the tradition of the soviet union and the russians and i mentioned some of them, there's a long list and you knew them well and their stories well. tore are those who want you

be more defiant, almost a martyr. are you aware of that? how do you feel about that? they want you to say more. my question might be, can you say more? that you have been as defiant of putin and russia as you possibly can? are two approaches to expressing your personal position. say what ipproach i feel and it is not important to me how people will react to my words. in order to remain irresponsible person but to take such a position, you have got to be

r soulonfident that you has a very precise tooling -- tuning fork. what do you want to say is what you need to say to people. saint.t a and i do not feel that my soul is such an absolutely precise forking for -- tuning like that. i check what i want to say with the reason from the point of how thoseill reflect on interest -- those

people i consider important. i told you what group of people i consider important. and i probably have not said a but i will say what now what interest i consider important. the interest are the interest of my country. i checked the things with my and what my reason tells me i should never say you were never hear me say publicly. >> tell me that again. check with your reason? >> i check what i would like to say with my reason for what kind of consequence will, from saying it. -- will come from saying it. i am never going to go about tolying -- lying, but

restrict myself in what i do say, i do that and i will theinue doing that based on reasoning i just described. >> what is your fear? do you fear today your life? do you fear further actions against you? do you fear there's only so far you can go? after 10 years, i line of beinghe afraid of my life for my life i amtimes and of course not going to throw myself in front of a moving train but to you can scare me with something, i would have a hard

time saying that at any rate. fear from my any my one ability, my physical vulnerability. .hat is fate nothing is scary about that. said, of course i do fear that may threaten those objectives i served. i do not want for someone to that he could have done and should have done

better, but didn't simply he did not bother to think about it. they may say he did not have enough talent. that is fine. i only have as much talent that i have, no more. i only have so much strategic thinking as i have, but iowa going to try to do the best towards the achievement of my goals. >> there is this about you. there was nothing about you before all of this happened to you that would have predicted how you would respond. is there? me, i knew said to him as a businessman.

he hasength and courage shown, i did not know was there. isn't that a case in which mikhail khodorkovsky simply had history thrust on him and he responded the way he did? in other words if it simply a case of a man who became something beyond what he ever imagined the cause he had to? >> i think you are absolutely right. ,'ve spoken with many people combat. part in at therly all of them, least of those who felt they were able to speak openly about knewld me, none of them

about himself, how he would until thatcombat moment arrived. we just do not know. and i think that within each of something that under certain conditions forces for ajump into the water drowning person or run into a flaming house to save a person. how deep this is and can this be will off to the surface, we succeed in doing so when we need to? you are not going to find it out until it happens. worked at the oil company and one of our oil tank forms

went on fire, that is a very dangerous situation in the toemen needed to run in prevent the fire from spreading. 150 meters in a special suit and a temperature of 800 degrees. some of the firemen decided to even thoughhers, they had been training all of their life, they cannot. we conducted training every year and those people were not able to cross the line, they stepped aside themselves. none of them knew if he could or could not until he had to do it immediately. to find outou come

that was within you to resist? wasn't there a moment in which you said, no, i cannot go this far? i cannot submit. moment iow, every asked myself, can i let myself to step up back here? some can't reach rita there is no way out and then you have to move for. i can't reach rita. -- there is no way out and then you have to move forward. i cannot sign an admission of putt because that would under direct people who are innocent of anything. all boss said a you are thieves, then you must be thieves.

i cannot allow myself to do that. there is no place to retreat. myre were no vacillations in soul. >> do you feel like a he wrote -- hero? >> no, of course not. is someone a hero who stands out. in prison, those are the kind of people have to experience deep, deep trials intra-galatians because they cannot -- and tribulations because they cannot do otherwise. wholy 15% are like that, refuse to take it upon aemselves to just sign

statement that said they committed a crime they did not or refuse to finger someone else and end up in jail. i am just one of those. yeah, my case was a lot louder. russia is the future for near and long-term? today, the economic situation in the country is not a very good. >> and the oil price? >> we are spending the resources we have a cumulative. the oil and gas industry have for the most point fallen under andpolitical management these people have reduced efficiency in a greater way. despite the high prices, expenditures are growing at the

same rate or faster. nevertheless, we still do have oferves and for some period time there should be another of them. if prices do not jump up to $200 a barrel, i think that the athorities are going to have harder time explaining themselves to the people why it is that the people should not partake in running the government despite the fact that the authorities themselves seem incapable of providing them with constant growth in their standard of living. the social contract between the people and authorities was just that. you ensure us growth and we do not meddle in running the country. you take your politics and

have a good life. what is the scenario of bringing your country [indiscernible] to a pointtin come where he has failed and there is a consequence? >> there are three variants. -- is he lienario ves until his natural demise. a sad situation but maybe not the worst in the country. >> a natural death? >> the second is also a rather modelary one, the curses and a whole bunch of other russian leaders before them that form left as a

result of a conspiracy within their entourage. but also notant, necessarily the most frightening. of third way is the repeat a person brings the country to an economic crisis and we are certainly moving right in that direction. and when the question of power of itout, the question goes out into the street. russians do not hold of that. we do not know how to. if we do that, it is over. long do you believe that could happen in russia? the 1917 scenario?

>> everybody understands it is the worst of the scenarios, but you cannot rule it out. we arekind of thing seeing in hong kong and we saw in the arab spring's. unpleasant,he most nobody can ever predict this. suddenly it happens. matchody can predict the that lights the fire. >> if all of us in russia remembers the story with the last dictator of romania, a month before his downfall, gustav -- that a huge number of votes. , that is it,, well it was over. he finishes and it is a

frightful finish and nobody needs that. what can comeion, to the power is anybody at all. >> part 2 of our conversation with mikhail khodorkovsky on the next "charlie rose." join us. ♪

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