>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose."

>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> mikhail khodorkovsky is here. he was until recently, russia's most famous prisoner. president putin pardoned him in december, after more than 10 years of imprisonment.

he was an oligarch who became wealthy in the era of soviet crony capitalism. when masked men arrested him, he was russia's richest man and the chairman of yukos oil. he and his partner, platon lebedev, were convicted of charges of tax fraud and embezzlement in two widely criticized trials. amnesty international declared them prisoners of conscience trapped in judicial cortex the answer to political, not legal consideration. his story has come to symbolize russia's turn to authoritarianism under putin. in an impassioned closing arguments following his second trial, he told the judge, "your honor, much more than our two fates are in your hands. here and now, the fate of every citizen in our country is being decided." he has lived in self-imposed exile in switzerland since his release. last month, he relaunched his open russia foundation and seeks to start a civil movement to challenge putin's grip on

power. i am pleased to have mikhail khodorkovsky at this table for the first time. welcome. >> hello. >> i look forward to this conversation since we met seven months ago. tell me where you are today in your life as you see it. > i have tried in the past few months to deal with some of the main tasks i had to deal with in my family. unfortunately, part of these decisions were not in human hands, but i still had the opportunity to say farewell to y mother and of course, that was a big humanitarian gesture on the part of the russian authorities. that is not usually in its

traditions. now, i consider i am ready to start the next stage of my life. >> which would be? >> i have finished with business. i consider that i have achieved what i wanted to achieve. the plans that i had. now i can move on to civic activity. i consider it civic activity as i have before even though many in russia call it a political activity. i do not object. if you think i am dealing politics, you may do so. >> how would you define the specific things you plan to do now? >> now, the situation in russia is not very simple as a onsequence of all of these

national socialistic moods that have arisen in the country. large part of the people have moved over to the side that is a life in the way that the current regime sees it. those people who see the situation in another way have now been the minority. it is very important that during which this situation will continue in public consciousness, it is important that it is a minority would not feel itself alone. people in moscow, people gather in large marches for peace. and people can feel they are shoulder to shoulder with somebody who think like them. if you take smaller towns, the situation there is different.

the task of the movement, the organization that i have created is to help people, who hold a pro-european approach. who are in favor of a law-based state in russia. >> people want to know the answer to this question -- would you go back to russia and would you challenge putin? >> what i am doing in any case is regarded by the current regime as a challenge. i do not know whether vladimir putin feels this challenge today. the regime, as a whole, certainly feels of this challenge. we could see this when we conducted our first conference. we can -- we conducted in eight

cities. all of the groups that took part were invited to the local and that conducted so-called prophylactic meetings with them. here is the question of choosing the most effective place for doing what i want to do. if i returned to russia, i would immediately of course turn up under house arrest, not in prison. there is a new practice that russian authorities put to their opponents under house arrest. every six months, our investing organs extend the term of the investigation of one of the many yukos criminal cases. if i returned to russia, i would not be free to act. it is more convenient for me to

act from abroad. >> is there anything in your pardon that prevents you from returning? did you make a deal in any way that you promised not to return to russia? >> no, i did not take any negotiations like that upon myself. i spoke about how i indeed needed to leave the country. my mother was undergoing medical treatment. no obligations to not to return. i did not take anything like that on myself. in my first press conference i said when i was asked if i would return, i would like to address this to the russian authorities. there is a decision and court of human rights that acknowledges unlawful the financial claims against me and the other basis

of the financial claims there is a legal opportunity if i returned to russia to not let me ack out. and so remove those. a session of the russian federation supreme court took lace and -- and the european court of human rights decision and that of platon lebedev was refused. this, of course, is against what is written in our constitution. our constitution said a decision of an international court is binding and our country as a higher force. nevertheless, the authorities let me know and no uncertain terms that if i returned to russia i would not remain free.

>> they want you not to come back by threatening few you would be under arrest because they have these other possible itigations, correct? >> yes, exactly. i do not know what specifically they will come up with. they have let me know in no uncertain terms it is not over. >> there are those who would like you to become a sort of mandela. a person, let's been in prison and comes back and a leading your country in a different way. is that a mantle that you want to put on your shoulders? hat mikhail khodorkovsky has come back to save his country and save other russian issidents?

>> for me, it could be somewhat ore ambitious than what i am capable of doing. but without a doubt, there is in russia and large component of my citizens whose -- interest i would like to defend and i would like to do that. these are those fellow citizens of mine, who are in favor of a pro-european russia. there are not that many in our country. unfortunately, they are not unified. they are not in single political force capable in those cases when we are talking about the interests of this group of people of jointly standing up for the interests. i am going to try to do something about this.

whether i succeed or not, i do not know. >> do you have huge sums of money? did you put away a lot of money because you knew the state might ome down on you? my question is, are there billions of dollars that you may have axes to that you can use and whatever political ambitions in half? >> i have enough money although billions of dollars is not a sum like this. i have enough money to feel myself independent. at the same time, i will onsider incorrect to use the money that i have in order to olve political problems. first of all, it would be

dangerous for my supporters and people who think like me because of the authorities could have -- could apply sanctions toward them. in principle, it is incorrect hen people resolve general political goals without putting their own resources into the solutions. if there is a task that people feel needs to be solved, they give money for this. if people are not giving the money for solving a particular task, that means that task is not important for the people. >> is your argument with the russian system or vladimir putin? > i consider the current problems of russia do not have to do only with a specific person, with putin. he is without a doubt a

representative of this system. he is without a doubt, a cornerstone around which the system is being focused more and more. this is fundamental instability. the problem is not just him. he problem is that russian society has not -- is not formulated the question properly for itself. the question, if not putin, then who? beyond the scope of discussion on the system is self. if not putin, then what? what is a normal law based state with separation of powers, a transfer of powers to local government authorities. the government closest to the

people. this is regular elections to replace people in power through honest elections. if putin would agree to follow this path, which i really doubt, but still, if he did agree, then there would be no personal aspects for me with this. >> you have told me before you do not hate putin? >> no, i naturally cannot say i love him. i have good feelings about him. it is harder for me to feel good about a person or send me to jail for 10 years. but, i am perfectly ready to leave all of these questions outside the scope of iscussion.

unfortunately, if i leave it out of discussion, we are still left with a problem that is not been solved. putin does not want to give away power through honest elections. >> the power is his thing? >> well, i do not think that was the case initially. he's dug himself into a situation where it is hard for him to leave power safely. and he has created in his head this notion that power in the ountry equals him. that he and his power are good fortune for russia. and i think that is a mistake.

>> because of prison, how deep is the fear of going back to prison to you? you have then there. -- you have been there. they robbed you of 10 years with your family. hey robbed you of the things beyond the things you had to endure. talk to us about what you lost in 10 years. >> well, of course, the human life between age 40 and age 50 is not the worst part of one's ife. and one could have spent it in a ot better way. f course, time between when my

children were 4 years ago -- old nd 15 years old. a time i would have loved to ave spent with them. my wife, my parents would have liked to see me more requently. then the time is they were allowed to do this in jail. am not talking about myself personally because i probably in this whole system, i was probably the most stable element. i feel very bad for my family. i feel very bad for the family.

and for me, this loss that they bore over this 10 years is something that cannot be returned despite the fact i am going to do everything to somehow return it. but still, that is life. >> in the 10 years in the terms of the physical toll on you, was their torture? you talked about how cold it was. yes? >> yes, of course. the russian prison is not to the gulags. even in the 10 years that i spent within their walls, things improved. only very recently this year was there a law adopted, at the least it is passed that makes up the situation of prisoners worse.

it allows the security to beat them without any control. but still, this is not to the ulags. i was able to position myself in such a way in prison that people treated me with sufficient respect. nevertheless, for this and not just for this, but i had to deal with the problems in jail through resistance. in prison, is there is only one game you can play. that is in your life. if you take -- if you do a hunger strike, it means is you either put your life on the line or they do not take you seriously. if you have put your life on the

line and you have not held out o the end, that is it. you are a nobody. i had to do this 4 times. i very carefully picked my battles. like any normal person, i did not want to die. i was prepared to go all the way each of the time and my opponents understood it. all 4 times, they did compromise with me. >> what did they compromise n? >> one of the lengthy stages of resistance was my former employer who was ill with aids and they refused to transfer him to a hospital. i and other people, it was not just me, but we managed to get

him moved to a hospital. here was also a very difficult situation when platon lebedev was thrown into the dungeon and we were told he would sit there forever. there were a couple of other unpleasant situations when there was no way out except for to do this. that is normal in jail. >> there were others who participated in hunger strikes when you were there, not just you? > of course. t is hard for me to say how -- to what extent these people were ready to go all the way. i never told anybody to join us.

it is an extremely personal attitude. >> how did you get to the point you were willing to put your life on the line? how did you come to the moment that you said, i have to do his? >> you know, i believe that there is someone who stands above us. higher than us. i believe at some moment, we all will need to give an answer for what we have done or not done before him. i believe that he has -- he does not have a good attitude towards suicide. i needed to know, will he understand why i did this or not? when i felt he would understand

me, i put my life on the line. >> what was the longest hunger trike? >> the usual one was somewhere around 10 or 11 days. one was unannounced 28 days. but the toughest one was not that. the toughest was the six day dry hunger strike without drinking also. i thought after six days, i thought the end was it near. >> and you were at peace with ourself? >> i was not afraid anymore. it is interesting. later, after the authorities did compromise, i had to force myself to start drinking again.

i did not want to drink. a dry hunger strike is when you refuse to drink. on the sixth day, you do not want to drink. >> what are you feeling? >> hallucinations. >> after 10 years, they released you. you talked about this before but ot on american television. what the weather conditions, how did they come about? you were discovered you would be leaving. >> i knew that our talks going on because my lawyers were elling me. but, i heard putin's talk on tv,

there was a tv in the camp. the people who signed him with me told me that. then the talk was about when it happened. i was convinced it would take place quickly. i knew the style that our authorities functioned in. it was 2:00 a.m. in the morning and i was woke up and told that a car had come for me and i was about to be transported. the person who came for me told me that even though he is formally taking me for transport to another facility, he said in the evening, you would be at home. he did not know i was a being deported to germany. >> that is where your mother was? >> in this time, my mother had gone through the first stage of treatment and had returned to

russia. they nevertheless deported me to germany. that's -- that is a bureaucratic name if you will. >> what role did the germans lay? >> i think they played an important role because there was ot any one single reason why putin decided to release me. he even had the alternative, he could release me or start up a third criminal trial against me. it is a very small window of opportunity when putin was thinking about the olympics and crimea, which was nowhere on the horizon.

and those -- in those two months that -- the fact we were able to use the two months that we had thanks to people from germany, mr. genshcer and angela erkel. >> there were times you could've come out earlier. all you had to do was say, i am uilty. >> they offered. nobody ever talked about nything with me. i was told publicly many times and wants even president putin said it publicly that if mikhail khodorkovsky admits his guilt, we will positively examine the question of his release. >> who did he say that to? did you follow up on that?

did you simply dismiss that at hand because you would never admit guilt? >> i never even started discussing it. >> was its clemency or pardon hat got you out? if your mother, authorities recognize your mother's illness. was it the humane thing to do that or did they want you out of ussia? >> it was a humanitarian gesture. actually, i think that for the authorities, it was not very acceptable to release me after the end of my term.

scott free without obligations and yet they were not comfortable with starting up a hird case because the society, nobody in society was looking at this as something just and fair anymore. in this situation when, on the one hand, you do not want to release a person without any strings, just want the term nds. on the other hand, you do not want to start up an unpopular case, the humanitarian aspect became a good way out for everybody. we need to understand that if i had remained in jail after the start of the crimean events, then of course, i would remain there for life. >> why is it that? because you would speak out? >> of course i would not have kept silent.

but because the authorities in a situation when relations with the west are already torn up has no point in having yet another headache in the person of me at large. >> you told me this in a conversation we had that someone from the outside said and correct me if i do not remember this correctly said, you have to come to this point. you have to assume you will never get out. that is the mindset you have to have. only then can you survive. correct? >> this was my approach to

sychological survival. i said to myself, i am here for ood. i have got to deal with my life as the life of an invalid, limited, restricted. with more freedom that somebody who is sitting in a hospital bed. i said there are people who have survived with only one finger that moves. they have made scientific discoveries, how am i worse? >> there is also this. when the second trial came out, i quoted from that. many people look at that as the most eloquent thing you ever

said. what went into that public statement at the time in which you defiantly spoke to putin and he russian system? >> i spent a lot of time thinking about what i should say because i understood that i am n prison for good. and whatever i would say would make no difference on my ate. at that point, i decided i wanted people to understand why i am choosing such a fate, the fate i have chosen. it was very important that i be

understood because i had friends at liberty and children out at liberty and family out at the liberty and i did not know, will i have another opportunity to ell them directly? so i said what i thought, what i onsider. i tried to make it so people would understand me. it seemed like i succeeded at this. â

>> when you came out, there were those who wondered about what the arrangement was, wondered whether you would come back to russia and if you would be politically active. you were -- you said you would fight for the liberation of prisoners and you wrote a book about it but because you saw experiences in there demanded that you do something. you saw people ready to commit

suicide. people had everything taken away from them and did not have the strength perhaps it you did. why now? why not immediately when you came out of prison? despite the fact you wanted to get to know your family again. as it anything else? > yes, when i got out of jail, i very clearly told about all of the understandings and grievances i had and all i had written to president putin. i did not conceal anything and i said everything totally publicly. in particular i said i asked for time until the end -- the formal

release date to spend that time with my family. i do not know whether this was important for putin or not, but if i asked for this time for that, i intended to and i did spend it specifically on what i aid i would. i needed at this, my family needed this, this was that obligation that i took upon myself. >> there are those who look at the tradition of the soviet union and the russians and i mentioned some of them, there's a long list and you knew them well and their stories well. there are those who want you to

be more defiant, almost a martyr. are you aware of that? how do you feel about that? they want you to say more. my question might be, can you say more? do you believe that you have been as defiant of putin and ussia as you possibly can? >> there are two approaches to expressing your personal position. he first approach i say what i feel and it is not important to me how people will react to my words. in order to remain irresponsible person but to take such a

position, you have got to be very confident that your soul as a very precise tuning ork. what do you want to say is what you need to say to people. i am not a saint. and i do not feel that my soul is such an absolutely precise tuning fork like that. i check what i want to say with the reason from the point of how this will reflect on those people under interest -- those people i consider important. i told you what group of people

consider important. and i probably have not said a but i will say what now what interest i consider important. the interest are the interest of y country. i checked the things with my reasons and what my reason tells me i should never say you were never hear me say publicly. >> tell me that again. heck with your reason? >> i check what i would like to say with my reason for what kind of consequence will, from saying t. -- will come from saying it. i am never going to go about pplying -- lying, but to

restrict myself in what i do say, i do that and i will continue doing that based on the reasoning i just described. >> what is your fear? do you fear today your life? do you fear further actions against you? do you fear there's only so far ou can go? >> you know, after 10 years, i have crossed the line of being fraid of my life for my life many times and of course i am not going to throw myself in front of a moving train but to say that you can scare me with something, i would have a hard time saying that at any

ate. i do not feel any fear from my understanding of my one ability, my physical vulnerability. that is fate. nothing is scary about that. that said, of course i do fear the steps that may threaten those objectives i served. i do not want for someone to someday say that he could have

done and should have done better, but didn't simply because he did not bother to think about it. they may say he did not have enough talent. that is fine. i only have as much talent that i have, no more. i only have so much strategic thinking as i have, but iowa going to try to do the best towards the achievement of my goals. >> there is this about you. here was nothing about you before all of this happened to you that would have predicted how you would respond. s there? people have said to me, i knew him as a businessman. the strength and courage he has hown, i did not know was

there. isn't that a case in which mikhail khodorkovsky simply had history thrust on him and he responded the way he did? in other words if it simply a case of a man who became omething beyond what he ever imagined the cause he had to? >> i think you are absolutely right. i've spoken with many people, who took part in combat. and nearly all of them, at the least of those who felt they were able to speak openly about it told me, none of them knew about himself, how he would behave in combat until that oment arrived.

we just do not know. and i think that within each of us, there is something that under certain conditions forces s to jump into the water for a drowning person or run into a flaming house to save a erson. how deep this is and can this be taken off to the surface, will we succeed in doing so when we need to? you are not going to find it out ntil it happens.

when i worked at the oil company and one of our oil tank forms went on fire, that is a very dangerous situation in the firemen needed to run in to prevent the fire from spreading. you need to go 150 meters in a special suit and a temperature of 800 degrees. some of the firemen decided to do it and others, even though they had been training all of their life, they cannot. we conducted training every year and those people were not able to cross the line, they stepped aside themselves. none of them knew if he could or could not until he had to do it immediately. >> how did you come to find out that was within you to esist?

wasn't there a moment in which you said, no, i cannot go this far? i cannot submit. >> you know, every moment i asked myself, can i let myself to step up back here? >> no, i can't reach retreat. -- there is no way out and then you have to move forward. i cannot sign an admission of guilt because that would put under direct people who are innocent of anything. your boss said, you are all thieves, then you must be thieves. i cannot allow myself to do that. there is no place to retreat. there were no vacillations in my oul.

>> do you feel like a hero? > no, of course not. a hero is someone who stands out. in prison, those are the kind of eople have to experience deep, deep and tribulations because they cannot do otherwise. early 15% are like that, who refuse to take it upon themselves to just sign a statement that said they

committed a crime they did not or refuse to finger someone else and end up in jail. i am just one of those. yeah, my case was a lot ouder. >> what is the future for russia ear and long-term? >> today, the economic situation in the country is not a very good. >> and the oil price? >> we are spending the resources we have a cumulative. the oil and gas industry have or the most point fallen under the political management and these people have reduced efficiency in a greater way. despite the high prices, xpenditures are growing at the

same rate or faster. nevertheless, we still do have reserves and for some period of time there should be another of them. if prices do not jump up to $200 a barrel, i think that the authorities are going to have a harder time explaining themselves to the people why it is that the people should not partake in running the government despite the fact that the authorities themselves seem incapable of providing them with constant growth in their standard of living. the social contract between the people and authorities was just hat. you ensure us growth and we do not meddle in running the country. >> you take your politics and have a good life. what is the scenario of bringing

our country to that place. how does putin come to a point where he has failed and there is a consequence? >> there are three variants. the first scenario -- is he lives until his natural emise. a sad situation but maybe not the worst in the country. >> a natural death? >> the second is also a rather custom area one, its cruise chef modeland a whole bunch of other

russian leaders before them that in a tougher form left as a result of a conspiracy within their entourage. it is unpleasant, but also not necessarily the most frightening. the third way is the repeat of 917 when a person brings the country to an economic crisis and we are certainly moving right in that direction. and when the question of power comes out, the question of it goes out into the street. russians do not hold of that. we do not know how to. if we do that, it is over. >> how long do you believe that could happen in russia? the 1917 scenario?

>> everybody understands it is the worst of the scenarios, but you cannot rule it out. >> the kind of thing we are seeing in hong kong and we saw n the arab spring's. >> what is the most unpleasant, nobody can ever predict this. suddenly it happens. >> nobody can predict the match hat lights the fire. >> if all of us in russia remembers the story with the last dictator of romania, a month before his downfall, gustav got a huge number of votes. a month later, well, that is it, it was over.

he finishes and it is a frightful finish and nobody needs that. in this situation, what can come to the power is anybody at all. >> part 2 of our conversation with mikhail khodorkovsky on the next "charlie rose." join us. â >> live from pier 3 in san

francisco, welcome to "bloomberg west." i'm cory johnson in for emily chang. ahead on "bloomberg west" this hour, first the new iphone and the new ipad. apple unveiling its latest full and mini ipads, an event on october 16. according to a person familiar with the matter, these ipads reportedly have a gold color as an option. but can the new devices reverse the decline, any color new device, decline the reverse in plummeting sales.