from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." johnson is here. he is the mayor of london since

2008. he announced his intention to stand up for election to the parliament in the 2015 elections. his latest book is about winston churchill and is called "the churchill factor: how one man made history." there is a long history of politicians writing a books to burnish their careers. this book is more like the courage thaniles in the barack obama book because it drops a hint. i am pleased to have boris johnson back at the table. >> it is an honor to be back. >> why did you write this? what the churchill family and the estate said as they had the 50th anniversary of his death coming up next year. -- they generally felt

genuinely felt that although there is a lot of scholarship there was not a book that tried to bring it together to argue to a new generation that churchill was the great manda i think he was and that people of my .eneration think he was in the new generation he is receding, fading. because the vastness of his .chievement is being lost the was a survey that showed that het people think was in an insurance advertisement. that is what young people think. it was an attempt to bring them to life again for a new to life againhim for a new generation and to show them the scale of what he achieved but also why he was the only guy who could have possibly achieved it. highway came about -- how it

came about that in may and 1940, britain and the world was on the brink of disaster. >> harris had been captured. -- terrorists had been captured. captured.ad been >> the french were hoping that we would do a deal with hitler because that would help their own. they were saying to make a deal with hitler. if he had, you would've had a nazi dominated continent, europe . an epic disaster for humanity. it wouldsible that have been able to invade russia successfully earlier. it would have been a tragedy. >> instead he had to fly a two front war -- fight a two front war and that derailed everything.

>> churchill knew that he could hold on long enough it would lose because in the end the americans would come in. that was his whole strategy. and it worked. in the end, it worked. >> a good part of his time was trying to get roosevelt to do it. john meacham wrote a good book about churchill and roosevelt. to forget that churchill, although his mother was american and he came to the city in 1895, he loved america but he also, i must confess to you, there was also a part of churchill that felt a certain badness about america's eclipsing of britain. in the 20's. in the 20's in the 30's he became so anti-american that ine says he cannot be foreign secretary because of his feelings.

jealousy? -- it jealousy? >> i think that is the right word. it was a feeling that america was elbowing britain off the top. >> it went into high gear after the war. >> in public churchill said of lend lease, the deal by which america helped britain to fight on and by planes and ships, he best act inthe history, but in my that he said that britain was being skinned and flayed to the bone. forget that he does not go to roosevelt's funeral. remember? it is a very, very complicated relationship. >> what was the explanation? >> it was not good enough. he should have gone any regretted it.

not forget -- and he regretted it. end offorget that the his career when he has his cabinet around he has two pieces of advice. spirit. is whatever that may mean. and second, never be separated from the americans. which is profound guidance. >> when you sat down i said that this book is about what is greatness and how do you get there. it seems like this is a man who wanted to be great and thought about it and did things that he thought would put him on that. >> that is very astute. that is right. there is a great element in churchill of self-assessment. .e knows exactly who he is he has napoleon and nelson, lasts of both of them on his usts of both of them

on his desk. remember that he was not a tall man, he was asian bigeye who built -- a shrimpy guy who built himself up using dumbbells and morally, also. >> you do have a feeling that he believed so much in his own capacity that he could be britain, that he was willing to do almost anything to make that happen. to shiftingeant parties or whatever was necessary. to get power. >> yes, yes. one like himn no before our sense in british politics because he left to tories and then rejoined them. he says he had been consistent but he abandoned free-trade and came back to free-trade.

this renegade, this trader is made chancellor of the exchequer. >> the recognized that he had real ability. >> they did. throughout his career that they were dealing with somebody exceptional. >> so everybody knew. but not to be trusted. >> correct. he was thought of as a loner, a maverick, a guy who continually got things wrong. but in the late 30's he takes this gigantic political position . hillary is wrong, hitler is a bad guy. -- hitler is wrong, hitler is a bad guy. he has seen it, he has seen the marching kids and the rest of it and he smells and he was totally right. >> you wrote that he was not what people thought of as a man of principle but a glory chasing opportunist.

>> he was. he took positions that crumpled beneath him. with the amazing thing was that he survived. -- but the amazing thing was that he survived. but he was never at any stage morally compromised. when it politicians get things wrong in our times there will often be an element where their honor our integrity is at stake and they will be shown to have lied about something or whatever. nixon. but that was never the case with churchill. >> it is said about him that he -- that his father did not spend a lot of time with them. that his father was not there for him. therefore he was overly protective. >> yet a complicated relationship with his father -- he had a competent relationship with his father. there is an essay he writes after the war that he

imagines that randolph is in a chair next to him and randolph is saying, my boy, tell me about the world today. in runoff does not understand that churchill has become the greatest englishman -- and randolph those not understand that churchill has become the greatest englishman. his father forms an impression that he is a retired military officer interested in debating. and churchill is bursting to explain his success when the shade vanishes. you have a sense that churchill is it yearning to impress his father. his father will him terrible letters when he was at school, saying he was a confounded young wasteral. >> do you know how many young men who come to the stable and simple to them is this idea that they could say i did ok, pop. >> the monkey on churchill's act was that. -- back was that.

with his mother, an extraordinary woman. a new yorker. she was very influential in his early life. >> what was his greatest skill? other than his will to prevail. >> other than his will to prevail -- i was going to say it was never giving in. the thing that he had that i find stunning in writing the book and researching it and that many people who dig into churchill come out with the feeling was his energy, his industry. he was like the toy with the battery that just keeps going. and churchill's unlike anybody or any journalist that i know that he could drink red wine at dinner. white wine, brandy, th

liquor. he would go upstairs to his office, walk around while a secretary was waiting up, and dictate until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. >> a book or speeches? >> speeches, thoughts, memos. he composed not just more work than dickens or shakespeare, but --e words than them combined words then it dickens or shakespeare about more words than them combined. and his paintings still sell for about a million dollars. >> he won a nobel prize for a history of the world war. it was the that swedes feeling guilty about neutrality during the war. but still, the nobel prize. >> when i ask about the greatest , i thought it was --

>> charm. amazing charm. fantasticmany literary gifts, the ability to speak directly to people, to move them, to sway them. >> he understood it because it is said that he built the pauses and halting because he knew that if it appeared that this was something that he was just thinking than it had a more powerful appeal. pause as if looking for the right word. >> his speeches were very far from on that premeditated -- unpremeditated. he had worked very hard on them. was using short, anglo-saxon words when he wanted to grip them. we are going to fight them on the street and we will never surrender. the only latinate word is surrender.

kennedy josh -- jack kennedy said to mobilize the english language. >> in but have been edward murrow -- it may have been edward murrow. but the great thing about his wasches and his broadcasts that they were aimed not just at the british but he always had an eye to america and he knew that that was the crucial audience. if he could reach the motherland, as it were, and persuade them, then he would have done his duty. that was his big achievement. >> why did the ungrateful british turned him out of office? >> that is one of the great questions of politics and i think the answer is blindingly obvious. -- he had become a somehow detached from the political party and straddled politics, he was above it.

it was felt possible to vote against the conservative party thought thatople it was ok to be anti-tory and it to support churchill. the labor slogan was chair for churchill and vote for labor. >> that is pretty good. >> it was a good one. and so they kicked him off. again, look at that. he gets this incredible poke in the eye when he has 70. he keeps going -- is 70. he keeps going and gets back into government. economist" says that his semi conscious views of politics speak to the analysis in which deep similarities emerge. this is "the economist," your own homegrown "the economist."

they say you want people to think of you as a churchill in the making. >> no. i hastily and the origins of the book. -- i explained the origins of the book. i had written an essay about churchill which they like and i ed. it was a chance to expand the message and try and bring it. i have more in common with a three toed sloth or whatever, a pterodactyl been churchill. -- than that churchill. >> they said this about lincoln, too. ambition. view know how may times they can lost the election before he was elected president? 10 times. he was defeated. -- his ambition

burned like an amber. -- ember. not a bad thing. >> not a bad thing. >> so fess up. >> i have months to go as mayor and i have to finish that up and then we will see what happens. are thinking about it but we will see what happens. >> i know what will happen in london which is that london will continue to make progress and i hope. much to do all things. >> the great urban excrement is alive and well? >> it is always wonderful to be here in new york. we have a lot to learn from each other as great cities. but london is going to buster's moment, no question. we are fortunate -- going gangb moment, nohe question. the london effective spreading across the rest of the country.

>> thinking about churchill and seeing america becoming, there are those who look at america and look at china and say china is coming. this -- going to make detroit first century will be china's century. the 21st century will be china's century. >> churchill thought that britain and america, with america now firmly in the lead, represented values, ideals of , freem and democracy speech and an independent abeus corpus,aviest c whatever, that were peculiar to english-speaking cultures. and there is a lot of truth in that. they ideas are not banal, are not trade, and they are not

uncontested. notot trire, and they are -- trite, and they are not uncontested read the reports of the world including china and russia that do not subscribe to that. -- uncontested. there are parts of the world including china and russia that do not subscribe to that. the people of the world war i america to play that role as long as i am around and i think of that will mean that the idea of america losing a position -- wants america to play that role as long as i am around and i think that the world will want the idea of america. >> the mayor of london, boris johnson. back in a moment, stay with us. foxcatcher" is a new movie.

here is the trailer. >> do you have any idea who i am? some rich guy calls you on the phone and wants to speak to you about what you hope to achieve. what do you hope to achieve, mark? >> i want to be the best in the world. >> good. you.ere is a key for the big house is off-limits. >> the coach has a vision. he would like foxcatcher to be the officials training site for the american team. >> what does he get out of it? this is it, this is all we have ever wanted. >> you have been living in your father's shadow your entire life. it is your time. >> i will give you everything i have.

>> i am leading men and giving america hope. i have spent my lifetime looking for a father and i have found one. >> it does not matter. the sport of wrestling is a low sport and i do not want to see you being low. >> why is there nobody in the gym? ape.u ungrateful >> mark? mark? mark? >> i do not need your help. >> tell me what is going on with you. >> what did i just say? >> the coaches a father. the coach is a mentor. the coach has great power on an athlete's life. >> usa.

usa. usa. >> mark. >> for you as the director and well,of the stars, channing tatum, and vanessa redgrave. , dedicate them and vanessa redgrave. market containing the things from this story and it took me almost no time after reading the first living that it was something i wanted to do. ago, backy long time on it, there are elements of hamlet. it has these pathetic characters who been alienated and have -- elements of my other films.

it has these pathetic characters that have been alienated. this particular one has an allegory underneath it that spoke to me. it had something to do with class and wealth and entitlement and country, family. there are so many things woven into it and i just cannot put it down. >> sounds like a bit of shakespeare. >> it did to me. i read the script and i thought it was incredible. the opportunity to work with bennett was a huge component. because his work speaks for itself or it is really good. it's -- itself. he is really good. to be a part of that world is an honor. he tends to cast against the grain. me, i doin terms of not think i was on any list for this role. and i think that bennett took a

chance. >> why did you cast them? -- him? >> because nobody expected that john du pont would kill anybody. part of it was putting somebody in a role that you do not believe is capable, in that way. one of the early conversations between steve and i, he said that he and only ever played ,haracters with mushy centers and that jones-drew pot seems to have a center but he does not, he is dangerous. -- that john dupont seems to have a center but he does not, he is dangerous. actors, iabout comic am attracted to them and the idea that there is another aspect to them. a darker side, perhaps.

that you can access and surprise people with. and i also just think he is a great actor. very compelling. mr. channing, was it bennett, the story, the role that brought you on board? bennett seven years ago before i had been in even one successful film. "capote," an obviously steve said that speaks for itself. -- and obviously steve says that speaks for itself. i do not think he had a script then so i went and research the character. any knowledge of the story and i fell in love with the idea of this world that i do not think anyone has seen before in film in a deep way. i did not know anything about this event. and,hen i read the script

to be completely honest, i did not understand it. i think i was too green in my knowledge of film. i thought that there needed to be some sort of resolve or lesson learned. i just cannot understand it. -- did not understand it. and then the movie just sort of came back around and i met bennett on the lot of sony when he had just finished "moneyball ." he said to see it and we talked about "foxcatcher." i think i had done a lot of growing, more lessons learned. i was reading it with fresh eyes and with bennett talking me through it, it made sense. i threw myself at his feet. >> and then you found vanessa.

dupont andween john his mother. here it is. we will give it to the children's museum. do you agree? i do not >> care what you do with the -- >> i do not care what you do with the train set. . do not care about trains mother, i am meeting men. i am training them. i am teaching them. dream and ithem a am giving america hope. >> hope? matter.not i am glad you have your trophy. it can go in the trophy room.

not in the front case. i do not like the sport of wrestling, as you know. it is a low sport. and i do not like to see you being low. was.ll me who john dupont >> he was the heir to the epoque fortune. fortune. i think he was a very lonely guy. he grew up essentially by himself with his mother who was pretty chilly. his parents were divorced when he was two years old. he grew up with just her in his and was isolated, i think because of his wealth. it is documented that he had a mental issues. who was he? it is our best guess as to who

he was, but i interviewed people and read books that he had written him up books about him -- written, books about him. i think ultimately he was a tortured and tragic individual. >> seeking something? >> well, yeah. i think the reason that he started the wrestling facility and sports in general -- he had extensive sports program on his estate. he wanted that greatness to rub off on him. he embraced it. he just loved the idea of eating a leader of men. and he -- being a leader of men. and he was not, naturally it the rufflo playsat mark was a leader of men, one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. and dupont zeroed in on people like that and wanted to be -- it

was a conflict because he wanted to be that person's mentor as well as be mentored by him. i think he was trying to fit himself into this world and did not possess the tools to do so. >> it took you eight years. what was the reservation on the part of the studios? >> it is an unusual film and it does not fit into a simple economic model. movies get financed based on formulas. there is a value given to it the estimations of a foreign presales driven by cast. with genre and director considered. the film did not make sense to anybody and it never did make sense to any standardized metric that is used.

and when "moneyball" was andping up, i met megan showed her the script, talk to her about it. -- talked to her about it. she disregarded her counsel and just -- >> took a shot. >> took a shot. >> this is a clip. hey, joe. i am really sorry about your mother. no, i am fine >> are you sure? >> there is a lot of work to do in the next couple of months. you are an integral part of that. do you understand? i'm going to need you. and i will be relying on you to

a great extent. i want, more than anything, to win a gold medal. and we have someone who could do that. >> we are going to win a gold medal, john. >> how are you feeling? >> i feel good about it. >> i am concerned that there are psychological issues that we need to take care of. >> i think he will be in real good shape. >> i think you are doing a good job. tandem -- youn and i, working in tandem, if we cannot get him there, no one can. >> ok did >> mark -- ok. >> mark? mark?

mark? good. it at the core of the film? what is he seeking from them and what are they seeking from him? >> that is the question, what is the transaction? i think that dupont cast himself in a role where he would be the leader of these guys. very lonelyas a guy, a very alienated guy. i think he was attracted to the fraternity, to the culture of these guys who do have a moral code. and they are in it for the virtues because you are not getting rich or famous. >> something he could never have done. >> yeah. it is sort of a parallel to the mother, who has her stable of horses and she was a world-class

equestrian. part of it was rebellious. think that he imagined himself being some kind of cold war hero. hockeyvisions of 1980 victory or like a bobby fischer thing. >> what happened that changes when dave arrives? all sense of, i guess, security. he was someone that he thought believed in you, it all comes crashing down. dave, even though he was largely a father figure for mark, i --nk he was always a bit market never be as shiny -- mark could never be as shiny and important as dave, because

they've brought him into wrestling. -- dave brought him into wrestling. so every achievement was a bit attributed to dave. i think when dave gets there it is just the thing that saved him .ut also his biggest nightmare >> is as an allegory on america? -- this an allegory on america? teamsm drawn into these but you have to be careful when you are making this film because but you have to be careful when you are making this film because you have to give importance to the characters and what is happening. for me i do see a lot of relevant themes. >> this is between john dupont and mark. >> do have any idea why i asked you hear? >> no.

>> mark, do you have any idea who i am? >> no. >> some rich guy calls you on the phone. i want mark to come visit me. well, i am a wrestling coach. and i have a deep love for wrestling. i want to speak to you about your future, about what you hope to achieve. what do you hope to achieve, mark? >> i want to be the best in the world. >> what is the biggest challenge for you here in making this? putting together a cast that you like?

>> a very quiet film. what it is really about is not get expressed explicitly. -- does not get expressed extensively. so finding a way to coordinate the moment so that we register what is happening, the unspoken. down andl put his head get very shy about that but i have never had an experience like this. you have complete trust in havene and feel -- to complete trust in someone and feel like that. i did not socialize much with these guys, but you guys got tighter as brothers. i very much felt to be on the periphery. but, one night, i was commiserating with mark on the way back to the hotel and we

both expressed his fear of, what are we doing. this is either the biggest mistake in the worst that we have ever done, because we are way out on a limb in terms of these characters. but, for both of us, and i think 43 of us, for a bus, five of us, all of us, trusting bennett -- i us, ther the three of four of us, five of us, all of us, trusting bennett was the big thing. >> i've had a short career compared to these two. i do not know anyone that lives it with you as much as bennett. is not a fun movie, and i do not mean that like it was not enjoyable, because there was an immense amount of gratitude and appreciation that goes into doing something that was hard. and you know for a fact that he

is right there next to you, just going through it with you. there is something very comforting in just committing and going all the way. doing it for him. for the story. >> sounds interesting to me. i think it was one of the greatest experiences, actually ofng able to be a part these, and like with you today and he q&a's -- and q&a's. i like to hear what bennett has to say and each time i see the film i think, oh my goodness. my goodness me. it is like going down in a bath phere with -- bathys creatures that are coming up to the air. resonances,h, such

underwater residences that are that i am soicit fed up with. [laughter] beautiful, it is beautiful. great writing and all of the greater writing because the writer did not insist that we have to explain everything, which i am sure he did not. i have to pitch in and say that awas frightened because of frightening scene it knowing that i must i have any assumptions and that is exactly what the journey was about. i was playing a very specific woman but i had to listen and son.e and confront my

since you are talking about this thing, you have to keep alienated if you are going to be in alienated person. person.ienated you cannot jump from one to the other, or it is very difficult most impossible -- difficult, almost impossible. it is both micro and macro. i was amazed watching the film. >> thank you all. it is great to meet you. opens --time, the film friday red >> limited friday night. >> back in a moment, stay with us.

>> daphne merkin is here, a former columnist for "the new yorker" magazine. she just published a new anthology, called "the fame lunches."

her essays says that are strikingly original and take on the human condition. i am pleased to have her back at the table. welcome. this is the second anthology. how do you approach an anthology? >> i think one of the problems with anthologies is that you want to try and make them look organic when they are not organic. >> they were not meant to be together but they are together. togetherried to put pieces through different scenes. one of the will icons, a very interesting name. -- wounded icons, a very interesting name. it is about my -- how when i put it-- effort -- would i put -- effort to gain significance in my eyes or attain a certain kind of status in the world by

harnessing it myself -- harnessing myself to famous people but famous people who were themselves wounded. >> you are drawn to them? >> yes. >> you are drawn to fragile sorts of celebrities or famous somebodies who feel they are --understood the buddies misunderstood nobody's. what is it about them that attracts you? notion thathe somebody becomes an accomplished person or celebrated person but is not totally intact psychologically. i find that fascinating. none of us are totally intact psychologically but the notion that they work around their woundedness to make something. >> and sometimes the impression is as they are so successful they must be adjusted, solidly ok.

>> absolutely. >> and they are now solidly ok and all of the things they thought fame would bring it did not bring. >> absolutely. as a culture, we look on and think about, like, robin williams, what could have been wrong in his life? in truth, we never know the demons that drive people. >> of all of these, which one is the most revealing for you? >> for some reason, marilyn unendingly.nates me >> what was it about her? what did she say about sex and fame? >> right or it i read her diaries that came out last year. -- right. i read her diaries that came out last year -- it is not really a diary, it is little notes that she wrote were self. -- wrote to herself.

is the beauty plus the vulnerability, a potent combination. >> she would show up two or three hours late for a scene. it would drive everybody crazy. enormousd an anxiety for performance. sayserything i've read that you did not include the essay on spanking. is that the most famous essay? >> i shudder to think that it might be. >> why not? well first, i included it in the last collection so i would not double it. but a certain kind of candor about sex remains -- >> missing. >> right. it is not one of the things that people are upfront about. keeping it away from the area of foreign, which is not about

candor anyway. , which is notporn about candor anyway. i think the piece has haunted me. yorker" -- when i reread it, i thought, i cannot believe i said this. i always sink of a title of a esquire"n of " pieces that came out, the title of which was "all of our secrets are the same." >> what does that mean to you? >> that if we told them -- >> that it is the same whoever we are? >> that we keep the same things hidden. >> a lot of it has to do with ego and fear. you have a new piece about therapy called making my therapist laugh. what is at about?

-- that about. >> i wrote it for a section of "the times." they called to say what i write something and i was myself about my own tendency to try and entertainment my therapis -- entertain my therapist instead of droning. i thought the opposite is boring, but psychic life is repetitive by its nature. i thought he saw how one therapist could not stop laughing and i was not that funny. he said to me, why do not become -- did i notedian become a?

standup comedian? >> so you were in therapy. >> you do not see big changes on the next street corner. >> when you write an essay, where do you start? an idea, a person, a theme? >> that is a good question because i am always -- every time i start an essay again, i think your we go again. -- here we go again. think a mixture of seeing the, pacing, and some idea about the scene, pacing, and some idea about the person. something that is not out there. >> especially if it goes against the grain of perception. it is something that is so personal. how could someone that cares so little about fashion care so much about jewelry?

>> that would be a great opening. >> that would be an opening line you would say. >> troop. .> -- true >> what is the normal length for an essay? it depends on the magazine. ranges from 1000 for a certain length essay for "the times," to 4000 or 5000 words for some. >> and when you look into the pantheon of essayists, who is up there? , very sickn essayist now, named james. i find him a wonderful essayist. >> he lives in london? >> he lives in australia, i think. i just read a collection by him. >> is he writing about dying? >> yes, he has. it has a sense of humor, which is interesting.

i always go back to virginia kind ofr a certain essay, a certain kind of personal yet informed essay. >> and then there is the famous orwell essay, why do i write? >> he was a great essayist. >> tell me how you employ language? are you looking to tell details or are you looking for contradictions or are you looking for what? >> to be a book editor. [laughter] for a mixture of, as you said correctly, the detail that will capture a reader and i like thates that -- phrases stand out on a page, that you do not gloss over. >> when i read an essay, i like to read something in which some

but he has characterized somebody that i have not thought of that instantly i say, yes, that is who they are. >> that is actually -- i read in write in my introduction that i hope the essays will get nods of recognition. >> my god, i cannot express that but that is what i thought without expression. >> that is the goal, pretty much. >> you did say that you are always in search of love. >> it sounds like something i would say. i once told a therapist that i wrote, and she said, what do you write for? and i said, for love. and he said, you will never get it that way. but i went on writing. >> the book is called "the fame lunches." they give joining us, see you next time.

-- thank you for joining us, see you next time. ♪

>> he is the provocateur behind some of the big ideas of our time. a creator of a sort of pop science. an unofficial but incredibly influential set of laws that govern human behavior. between five new york times bestsellers in two decades at the new yorker, and malcolm gladwell has inspired, inflamed, and perplexed the most critical of readers. joining me is author, journalist, and thought-provoking author malcolm gladwell.