>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> margaret atwood is here and she has written more than 40 books and her new book turns to short fiction for the first of

it nearly a decade. it is called "stone mattress." i am pleased to have her back at this table. welcome. why did you return? chris it just kind of happens. the first one, i really was on a boat in the arctic and i really did start writing a story about how you would murder someone on the boat in the arctic and get away with it. and there really were five people called bob on board -- >> five people called bob? >> he was a number so you can change them around her >> you call them tales. >> i did not want people to think it was realistic even though we kind of are. i do not think there are any anything in the story. there are certainly people interested in cut off hands that crawl around by themselves and other mem of the form. es >> you would think that short

stories would be easier, but it is not necessarily so. >> it is not necessarily so and on the other hand, some of the problems are similar in that if you cannot get the person reading the past the first page, you are doing whether a novel or short story. get them pastot the first page, you are in trouble? >> you start with "stone mattress." is true in everything. you have to get the reader's attention. >> the title and sometimes the first paragraph and sometimes the second paragraph. "dracula" a guy is on a train and everything is kind of monday and he must get the recipe for his wife. guy.ink is a pretty boring

we know something he does not and we know the title is "dracula," so we know something is coming along. you have anger, death, feminism, natural world. >> richard, cut off hands. charles bonet syndrome through the stores. that is the one where if you are losing your mission, sometimes if you're feeling quite isolated, you see little people are the little people -- >> it is an actual disease? >> is the actual syndrome. .sually in multiples dancing in groups or marching in groups. they do not interact with you. you can talk to them but they do not talk about a it is called charles monet syndrome. crit how did you find out about it? >> through the author who wrote

the "circus wife." a book about hallucinations of various kinds which is fascinating and i wish i could remember the title, but it's something like "hallucination." >> revenge is a game? >> fortunately, it is. eme.h we like reading about it and we may never do it ourselves. -- readerarly rhythm and a couple of his stores are about revenge. i got the idea quite early. a friend of mine, who was a writer and collector of stories was doing to collections called dark waters and black arrows is that canadians have not written any -- and he said canadians have not written any revenge stories and i said we will have to change that. they were quite interesting to write. -- >> do you like

male or female characters? fond ofly well but i am gavin in the book in the second story. a very grumpy, older man. so he is grumpy in a verbal way and he is a married three of his students, one after the other. the one he is married to not is quite a bit younger. it makes for interesting situation. he is a former boyfriend of the person and the first story who is a fantasy writer. and she is putting gavin inside of her fantasy world but he is inside of a -- where she has kept him for 50 years. [laughter] >> tell me about torching the dusties. >> setting them on fire. home an upscale retirement

. so nothing but the best. character isal bias ascolitis -- to seeing the little people. she is therefore her telling her what it happened. you see a mob outside of the retirement home demonstrated with signs and they turn on the radio and they hear it is fairly widespread. at some cases, the mob has burned down the retirement home. there are young people very annoyed that in the money. and not creating any jobs for them. movement going on a burning down but nursing homes and what of my retirement homes. one of myme --

retirement home straight it is called advanced living issues. you do not want to end up in that one. one of my favorite parts that you would like us would have a panel discussion on the radio. this wonderful panel discussion in which they talk about what is happening in a social phenomenon and the economic that nobody does anything about it. sounds familiar? [laughter] >> what is the future like? >> that is so interesting. to me, i got a letter about it. it is connected with the library and in norway -- librarian in norway. i came out with a conceptual artist called katie patterson and she put together for them. the force is growing in norway and will grow for 100 years. each of the hundred years, a different author will be asked to submit a manuscript to the

library and you will put it in a box and sealed the box. it can contain no images. copy and youne cannot tell anyone. all will be known as the title and the name. when the 100 years is up, they will open all the boxes and it will cut down on upshur is from the forest to print the 100 books. it is like a time capsule. my book will be the oldest one in 100 years old. annals one would only be one year old. during that 100 years, all of alive unlessday something radical happens when no longer be so. -- and the youngest one would be one year old. they youngest authors have not been born yet and the parents have not been born yet so they have no idea who that will be. darren darren huskey

doing something with your work? >> the film director. busy and ie being didn't have to do much. and so, he's doing the "mad at him trilogy. trilogy."am an hbo series. .ere's a group, his team will had a few discussions that have chosen a writer. we'll see the first script. >> do have any role in in looking at the script and offered opinion? >> we will find out. the whole process for >> whenever i have you here, always reminds me how delightful you are. you're the reputation of being tough. >> i know. >> people say, watch out. >> watch out.

, you have to be good. >> you know. [laughter] >> what is it that -- >> why to have the reputation? once upon a time, before you that you, it was so would get on a radio show or have a journalist or something and they will say things like women cannot write or wash are read your book? your why should i read book? and tell me what it is about. would pushses, i back a bit and i would be mean. [laughter] >> that's right. not being invited back so you -- you did not hear you promote your book? >> i did. >> you have the luxury and you can choose where you want to go. >> yeah, yeah, that is true now.

i did give my first book signing s sucking underwear department. >> i would do that, too. asked socks and underwear department. it had only been six months of your life. if you than five years, you want to sell the hell out of it, wouldn't you? you spent so much time in it. >> you want it to be read, of course. me,h is why people say to the future library, nobody's going to read the book, why would you do that? books are time capsules anyway. many facehere've been of the promotions -- phase of book promotion. there is a book called "mortification: writers and whichpublic shame," in

writers tell of all the border find things that have happened while presenting their work in public. it makes you feel better. some of the days are so awful that will not happen to you. >> what did you think of amazon? >> what do i think of amazon? was a loaded question. [laughter] i think were in a very collocated over session here that complicated, conversation here. there's no doubt that authors depend on him anyways to be a distributor of books. that is the good side. the backside is -- the bad side is cut -- competition is productive within limits. wasn't this in the state of monopoly, it does away with, tish and people get lazy. ofonce it is in the state monopoly, it does away with competition and people get lazy. >> the older you get, the more

you know about the plot before you begin to write because you've lived longer a youth seem more and you know more. and therefore, is readily available for you to pour into the best, some to the book. >> possibly not the lot, probably more the characters. >> you see people you want to on your characters after? >> i have more data at my disposal. [laughter] >> a good way to express it. age, you have known more people and read more books and as a way it is. they call you a commission, a board, a group of people? >> secret person. i do not know who it is. i made that up. >> could be. i do not know. phone rings as someone

said something. >> margaret, can you hear me? i am calling for oslo or stockholm. >> the phone rang and there is a little voice on the end that .aid, i am a film producer i said who is this really? [laughter] i probably say, who is this really? who should get the nobel prize in literature next year? >> a whole bunch of them. a lot of excellent writers around the world who -- beeno have never recognized? >> there's only 18 year. -- there's only 18 year. there are more good writers and the nobel prize. -- there's only one a year. >> everybody thinks you are on their list. >> it is a rumor. no one is actually seen the list

and the phantom list. >> the great dimension or. >> lets me put it to you this way. the double comes to uss, charlie, you can either keep on doing your show or win this bid price -- the double comes to you -- devil comes to you and say >> this book is called "the mattress." you must love it as you're doing so well. i love having you here. >> thank you. is here andorow would've our greatest living authors. his new novel is called -- i am pleased to have him back at this table. this is what the first front-page review of the new york times says. i've always responded to my time -- he has no choice responded to

the history of one's times is the sworn duty of a character in hasvel by e.l. doctorow who in his writing plays a remarkable number of people, both real and imaginary in their history. just watch the response. chris that is interesting. chris do you agree? >> entirely. label of historical novel, not one i welcome. >> what is wrong with it? all novels are set in the past if you think about it. even science fiction is victorian. and some novels have a wider focus and include public figures and historical events. some have a narrower focus about

andly, personal relations so on. they are all about the past. there is no difference between the two. so, also my novels are set in different parts of the country. south,otas, down georgia, the carolinas, new york city. i feel you might as well call me a geographical novelist than historical novelist. i like the word novelist. -- a certain amount of connotations. ok, i'm looking for the word "historical novel payday -- historical novel." >> may by over anticipated. >> it says it judges the reader somehow. formulatednot

fiction. when you do this work for a while -- >> writing novels? >> you want to find new ways to do it. equivalent to -- and riders been to get. james joyce was a beautiful writer. --listic, since a fiction sense of fiction. >> he seems to have done all right. >> virginia woolf decided she wanted to write a novel without device,o forgo that that convention and she did a couple of times. the one i like best is -- iters have always had the feeling that formulating fiction is unsatisfactory. the way this book has turned out, i think it breaks a few

rules in pleases me. >> who is andrew? a figure came to me as standing in the snow and holding a infant's water in his arms in front of a door with a snow-covered down of his yankee ball cap. -- swaddled >> it was some urgency to it as he was waiting for the store to open. i found myself writing that. -- the door to open. i had to find out a way what was happening just what was going on. chris is a normal scientist? neuroscientist? >> a cognitive scientist. he suffers from the fact to all anhis life he has been in

inadvertent asian of disaster. agent of disaster. he administered medicine and knew it was the wrong medicine and william died. as a child, who's responsible for a car crash that killed the driver. life, he has had this trail of awful things happen. now, unable tot feel anything. which is a self-delusion of his failing. >> you may know distinction between real and imagined? >> that is correct. that is the rules, you do not orw what he is imagining whether he is reporting what actually happened. convention of the unreliable narrative, it really takes it to

extremes. and in that way, the book does test the reader. judges the reader. -- i just think that fiction can be too comfortable in know, is the most conservative -- comfortable. no, is the most conservative. s picassoonist,s and cubism. while these changes. fiction has not moved that much. -- all of these changes. we have been through three of the postmodern writing. that is rather timid in terms of finding a new way --

>> was responsible? >> i came later. -- >>you are a novelist you are a novelist deliver a great living novelist. therefore, argue responsible for the quality chris martin -- argue responsible for the quality? -- are you responsible for the quality? >> it is a matter of personal satisfaction. you always want to talk with you have done. what you have done. once something is done and you cannot do anymore, you have to move forward. -- toe you in search of have a conversation about numeral science -- nero science and philosophy of the mind that

show the company? >> this point of view of philosopher, it is fascinating subject and philosophical concern is the subject is most curious. what is happened is the one serial conception of thinking has taken over from the old cartesian dualism. cience and the soul is fiction. is -- them is crazed problem is how the brain creates loving in all the suggested state of mind. how does that happen? nobody knows. there is an immense amount of activity going on to map the brains in map of

figure after increased there is a huge story in "the new york times." >> i have a separate thought. if they can do things like figure out about parkinson's or alzheimer's, that's terrific. chris is primarily wasn't that -- >> that's primarily what the motivation is. chris is noble. noble and i have ingested in the point where andrew is opposing we do figure out how the brain works -- supposing we can figure how the brain works. then we could build a computer that has consciousness. this sounds like movie stuff. but there's actually some serious people in this field who believes that theoretically, it is possible. if that ever happens and you won't for a long time, if it ever happens all the stories we

are living by our finish. the bible, of the bronze age mythological we have of ourselves as human beings are gone. finished. that can be as disastrous as an asteroid in time. >> i have dealt with the scientifically active this table. >> i know. >> talking about consciousness. it tells about artificial intelligence and all of that. lineam giving you andrew's on that. >> he worries. >> he is a bit of a hysteric. >> politics in here, don't you? >> i suppose you can call it that. i do not see it that way. it is a very intricate book. things lock into other things. for example, andrew, his first wife whom he is bringing a baby

-- bringing -- >> the door of his ex-wife? >> the baby. this is his ex-wife's husband is performing. calls andnt, he through a pretender because of that history -- andrew a wasender because boris terrified that somebody could come loan attended to be the star. to bee along pretending the star. citizens killed children to take he crown, he has to -- since is killed children to take the crown, he has posttraumatic stress disorder. in true becomes the -- andrew becomes the other character in the russian opera in "the holy

fool." begs fora, boris, forgiveness. fool stands for russia. when he arrives to the u.s. -- chris a george bush like character? is, i am under -- if someone reads this book 25 or 50 years from now, it will not matter who the model of his character is. it will just be a portrait of moral inadequacy attached to power. >> that's remarkable you do that. something on the cutting edge of the frontier of the future.

happened is for some reason, i assigned to this profession. and so, i had to deliver on that. >> do you know -- misgivings,eat feeling the brain is his jailer. think about can i my brain if my brain is doing the thinking? the self alienation in a remark like that. that's because he cannot accept the romance and comfort of the idea of the soul. >> thank you. thank you for coming from a pleasure to have you here as always. thank you. >> george saunders is here. he get the address at syracuse

university and the message was simple and powerful -- tried to be kind to others for emma slater, a trick -- tried to be kind to others. -- a few months later, the new york times posted the transcript a has been shared more than one million tons. i am pleased to have george saunders back at the table. just tell me, what am i having any here that is different from reading the speech? >> regionally, i'd written a 20 minute speech thinking that was the lead and two days before, i called and if said is eight minutes. exactly right. as a short story writer, pretty good cutting it back. very similar to the speech itself. the speech was kind of surprising. really goxpect it to beyond that day. when it didn't, i felt like maybe i did something right

without knowing what it was. >> what you think it was? >> parlay the length you had to be urgent and was not a lot tougher supporting data. also i was given it at syracuse where i teach, it kind of rules and be a bit and think i'm going to speak from the heart -- the kind of loosened me up a bit in thing i'm going to speak from the heart. at the end of the day, what do i really think? i given a version in 2004 to my daughter's middle school graduation. it was our daughter and my for and -- and her friends. real simple, kind of urgent thing, what i do support or not. chris can you sum it up about kindness? >> what i was trying to do in the setting where people are a little more open than usual, trying to say to make a case that kindness is not kind of

this optional think we have but characteristicn and should be of intellectual life. intellectual concept. it will as a writer or artist or six should take some time to think about it. artistody as a writer or or citizen should take anything about. we all things things like c ourage and energy are proper virtues and the others, compassion, kindness are nice but optional. actually, these are all part of being a powerful human being. p5 interviewed have acted courageously just differ from kindness. -- >> saw the p5 interview have acted courageously which is different -- some of the people i have interviewed have acted courageously which is different from kindness and set it is the ink to do. >> maybe it would depend on the date.

of, ithinking it a sense was running marathon today. i just have to. not had never run before, going to be successful. i am thinking since this kindness comes and goes, it makes sense to start early. try to train. thedo not want to -- in speech, i lightly alluded to it. that is what religion is. nettles kind of one of the messages coming if you will take my advice -- that is kind one of the messages, it would take my advice. chris is there a danger in the digital culture we live in? anonymity, people behave really badly when their name is not attached to it. that is a problem. i have never met kinder, more mindful kids.

i think more so than -- when i was a kid in the 1970's, i do not remember being nearly as -- >> how is expressed? high-level in these writers in a workshop format. just wonderful it being specific in their comments but not ever harsh. not trying to put somebody down. it's a real kind of pot of gold feeling. also, i remember our generation is being cynical and so afraid that you would rather say something harsh. these guys are real comfortable with emotion it is presented. chris was there a moment in which, a powerful moment, realism? >> oh, yeah. i went through a period in my 20's or 30's when i had my first kid is working at jobs is sort

of not having enough success. in that sense, it was really, you concede absurd as him which really was a scene hosted to the dism which your can see at the bottom. people see as less capable than you are. chris people talk about your work is being postmodern or dark -- >> people talk about your work as being postmodern or dark, does it ring true for you? >> i think it is dark. my art is a purposeful exaggeration not supposed to be, a puppet show that region in partsto touch on certain of life. for example, if you ever been a situation where you were struggling to properly represent that, you might have to take things to the dark side.

if you want to restore confidence, i cannot imagine i could do it with a bunch of happy people and restaurant enjoying. way ok the darkness is a luring out of the light. if you want to talk about love, you have to put it like you would in engineering test, under heat stress it is we human beings do. >> is the artist have a moral function? >> yes, but a little careful. -- youou the artist think that artists have a more function? >> they will come out very quietly if you let them. it is about people.

you want to see people in their definitionwhich by is what look at human being is saying, what's your essence? that by definition is -- >> many people when they look at writing essay you can get it better as fiction than reality. i have never quite been convinced of that. that's real stories can be as powerful as the mind -- >> i am not sure. made a mistake is the intention. i do not think is trying to show you live. i think it's trying to do a very beautiful, exaggerated that's not life at all. but a blood bath and go in there something happened in it is not random. you come out alive. you shake it is like a roller coaster. after a roller coaster, you are not inclined to discuss it.

you are just thrilled. for creative artists, the rest follows. >> when we got another commencement speech? >> i do not think i will. it went pretty well. 10 years ago, i was on every line in one of the images -- i was an airplane and when the images went out. maximo coming out and people screaming. it was a clarifying experience. -- smoke coming got people screaming. i was not capable of thinking. when things calm down and landed, it was amazing in that moment, i thought i would never write another book. i was in absolute denial. dan, about -- and the end, 20 minutes, it was clear that the goal is to open yourself up and do not be afraid to try to love

other people. and then, those things do kind of close down. i will get to that. older, icing as i get get more sure of that is pretty little frustrated i do not realize sooner. what you realize is you can get better. it is hard going to work as your own ego, really a big job. it is a work of a lifetime. >> thank you for clinic. >> my pleasure. -- chris thank you for coming. -->> thank you for coming.

newan mcewan is here at his book tells about a leading high court judge presiding over the case of the jehovah's witness who refuse a blood transfusion. act."called "the children welcome. warden is a friend of yours. >> ps. >> he tells you a story. -- >> he is. >> there were several judges and they were all, got to know each other judgments >> the purpose

is to inform you about judicial proceedings? >> no. sooner or later i had a judgment bound volumes and started looking. it is a form of fiction. the subgenre that any dissemination especially the family right in the heart of s concertthe novel' for i put in the back of my mind for three years later, he taught me a story medicinova witness case. until halfway through the store. -- he taught to me about a jehovah's witness case. -- he was halfway through the story. >> is writing a novelist chris mark -- novelist? >> it is lost in the end of love. it is the end of love. the contested destinies of children. medical and legal ethics and all

ties the issues that do not resolve crimes with guns and knives. ordinary dilemmas that face people concert and was are twice in a lifetime. >> depression? you set out to write it and what did you do ? >> i read more judgments. the bestimpressed by of them and there were terrible judgments by the way. historical -- use, historical, philosophical, use of irony and wit. these are all secular judgments. they do not refer their moral systems to any supernatural entity. yet, they're constantly dealing with the religion. kind of a rift here and i thought, this was i would like to explore.

>> where was religion in your life? >> church, in england, my background for polite and conventional. in theto carry the flag garrison church. my dad was an army officer. i read a lesson from corinthians, i think it was for but i lost all religion. >> you said about writing a new novel, a set of dealings so vague that you cannot even write them down because you might wonder them. >> yes, sometimes wrapping words around a fork is a fork is way too suffocated. suffocateis a way to it. a very important element. have a good idea. while if it's a good

idea, two months later he was a good idea. >>mold it like a cheese. would you know it is ready? chris minefinders of writing when you find>> yourself writing paragraphs. starks case has a between a law court >> it happens a lot in the more i looked into it, there were three judges all of home head at one point or another -- all of at one point or another went against the wishes of a young jehovah's witness to have a blood transfusion. with the hospital to have the right to do it. who do notparents get the blood transfusion and out child dies? will?y said must be god's

chris i have heard them say to me, we do not see death as something final, it is a beginning. the courts generally take a very robust approach to this. if you wish to make yourself a martyr to your religion, that is fine. cannot an adult but you inflict it on a child. generally, the courts will give the hospital permission to transfuse against the parents' wishes. but the close of the child gets to 18 to his or her majority, the bar was the law cost engines question, it becomes the court was to hear from the young teenager himself. there's not just a rubberstamping the moment. the course taken very seriously because it is criminal assault to treat somebody against their wishes into the hospital. , how did you

create her? thing i did.st >> she is a judge? >> a judge. 59 years old, childless. aww. well, a ve process of, just a vague process of watching some -- a vague process of watches about walking out to you from a missed. mis using the outline of your shoulders and their phaset. as of the other personality and you write them into existence. one citizen generates another. -- sentence generates another. when you are lucky, if you're lucky, she has a life of her own. she tells you what to say. the possibilities sure. >> in good enough in the character so they tell you what

they need and what they say -- you get a enough in the character so they tell you what they need and what they say. >> they exclude the possibilities. this lady was somewhat against the grain, rather self-contained , highly rational, but emotionally rather against the grain of women to be so much more articulate any motions than men. let's have her wonderful in her work, takes her personal life for granted. now facing a crisis. she is not so good at dealing with her own problems and she is much better at other people's. chris i love the name fiona. one ofd three daughters, them would be fiona. one would be margaret, my mother was margaret.

if you choose after that. know --ways to me, you mindody who knew their own and strong. >> i used to say this, it just occurred to me a piece called "fiona," said in discord. all striking. -- sheght in front of ckled.ll and fre i am sure we can find some fa cts. [laughter] >> i went to marry fiona. >> and not marry them all. >> she meets adam. her in thes before high court in london in the court of justice.

she does a slightly irregular. she suspended the court proceedings a cab ansys at the boy's assad regime 17 years old. -- he is 17 years old. him ins right through many ways at the same time, he stirs her. the child she may have had. then -- >> paradoxically for a boy the divide --, -- a boy thinking about you, -- a boy thinking th, he wants to learn irish lament. -- sings it. it tells him it is by yates. she is a messenger from another

world. suddenly, she is the reason why he wants to go on living. chris -- >> what criticisms of your writing deified the most off target that of your writing do you find the most off target -- what criticism of your writing to you find the most off target? >> the other things people always say -- >> no matter what you write? >> i would have unbelievably extraordinarily thrilling or exploited even to completely change. remember -- i do not think -- it does not make any difference. say, they're only rarely thinking of the open should -- opening chapter.

one assesses what i do and i can never -- this is what i'm doing i can never push people's attention away from it. longirst 200 pages is one of expanding circumstances. nothing too dramatic. usually when it is public on a stage and in earnest interviewer, this question has come off internet and not based on his or her reading. i am too weary of even rejecting the question. [laughter] >> just get on with it. >> yeah. , are as you write a book you ages to get one of do have a period.-

>> i like hesitation. i am quite good at not writing. said, heartygoer lacked with great writers have, the capacity for determined stupor. i thought, well, i disagree with wu-mart. -- with the remark. i love determined stupor. [laughter] ofind of relaxed mode reading, traveling, seeing friends and idle thinking. >> where the right christmas >> write?t\/\ -- >> i have a big board attached to the main house by double doors. i cannot hear anything going on in there. all of my books are around the world. start in the morning. early?arly -- >>

>> later. >> after breakfast? >> i do not eat breakfast. i carry a second cup of coffee. i think i have a couple of hours of me and my work. >> you plunge into the night karen it is called -- into the night. it is called "the children act." thank you. >> thank you, charlie. >> thank you. see you next time. ♪