>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> mikael khodorkovsky is here. he was russia's most famous prisoner.

president clinton pardoned him in december after more than 10 years. he was an oligarch who became wealthy in the era of russia's post-soviet crony capitalism. when masked men arrested him in 2003, he was russia's richest man and the chairman of yukos oil. he and his partner were convicted on charges of tax fraud and embezzlement in two widely criticized trials. amnesty international declared them prisoners of conscience. his story has come to symbolize russia's turn to authoritarianism under putin. in an impassioned closing argument following his second trial, he told the judge "much more than our fates are in your hands. here and now the fate of every citizen in our country is being decided." he has lived in switzerland since his released. last month, he relaunched his foundation that seeks to start a

civil movement to challenge putin's grip on power. i'm pleased to have mikhail khodorkovsky at this table for the first time. welcome. i look forward to this conversation. tell me where you are today, in your life, as you see it. >> i have tried, in the past few months to deal with some of the main tasks i had to deal with in my family. unfortunately, part of the decisions were not in human hands. i still had the opportunity to say farewell to my mother and that was a big humanitarian gesture on the part of the russian authorities that is not usually in its traditions.

now, i consider that i'm ready to start the next stage of my life. >> which would be? >> i've finished with business. i consider that i've achieved what i wanted to achieve, and now i can move on to civic activity. i consider it civic activity, as i have before, although many in russia call it political activity. i don't object to that. if you think i'm dealing in politics, you may do so. >> how would you define the specific things you plan to do? >> now, the situation in russia is not very simple. as the consequence of all these national chauvinistic moods

that have arisen in the country, a large part of the people have moved over to the side -- they see life in the way that the current regime is propagandizing it to the public. those people who see the situation in another way have now become the minority. it is very important for that half-year or year during which this situation will continue, it is important that this minority would not feel itself alone. in moscow, people do gather in rather large marches for peace and people can feel that they are shoulder to shoulder with someone who thinks like them. but if you take smaller towns, then the situation is different. the task of that movement, the

organization that i've created is to help people who hold a pro-european position who are in favor of creation of a law-based state in russia, to not feel themselves outside of society. >> lots of people want to know the answer to this question -- will you go back to russia, and will you personally challenge vladimir putin politically and in every other way you can? >> what i'm doing, in any case, is regarded by the current regime as a challenge. i don't know whether vladimir putin feels this challenge today. the regime as a whole certainly feels this challenge, and we could even see this when we conducted our first conference. we conducted it in eight cities.

all those groups that took part in this conference were invited to the local fsb, and they conducted so-called prophylactic meetings with them. as it concerns returning to russia, here is a question of choosing the most effective place for doing what i want to do. if i return to russia, i will immediately turn up probably under house arrest. not in prison, but there is this new practice, the russian authorities but their opponents under house arrest. every six months, our investigative organs, with the approval of president putin, extend the term of the investigation of one of the many yukos criminal cases. i understand perfectly well that if i return on to russia i will not be free to act.

for now, it is more convenient to act from abroad. >> is there anything in your pardon that prevents you from returning? you make a deal in any way in which you promised not to return to russia? >> no. i did not take any kind of obligations like that on myself. i spoke about how after my release i did indeed need to leave the country but because my mother was undergoing medical treatment in berlin. no obligations to not return. i didn't take anything like that. in my first press conference, i said, when asked if i return to russia, i address this question to the russian authorities. there is a decision of the european court of human rights that acknowledges as unlawful the financial claims against me.

it is on the basis of these financial claims that there is a legal opportunity if i return to russia to not let me back out. so, remove those. a session of the russian supreme court took place, and the european court of human rights decision in my case was refused. this, of course, is against what is written in our constitution. our constitution says that the decision of an international court is binding in our country as a higher force. nevertheless, the authorities let me know in no uncertain terms that if i return to russia, i will not remain free. >> so they want you not to come

back. by threatening you that if you come back, you will be under arrest because they have these possible litigations with yukos, correct? >> exactly. i don't know what they will come up with if i return to russia but they've let me know in no uncertain terms that it's not over. >> there are those who would like you to become a kind of mandela, a person who's been in prison, comes back, and leads his country in a different way. is that a mantle you want to put on your shoulders? this idea that mikhail khodorkovsky has come back to save russia after having felt the pressure of the state and imprisonment in the tradition of so many other russian dissidents? >> for may, this could be

somewhat more ambitious than what i'm capable of doing. but without a doubt there is in russia a large proportion of my fellow citizens whose interests i do understand, and whose interests i would like to defend , and i would like to do that. these are those fellow citizens of mine who are in favor of a pro-european path of russia's development. there are not that many in our country even today, but unfortunately they are not unified. they are not a single political force capable in those cases when we are talking about the interests of these group of people, of jointly standing up for these interests.

i'm going to try to do something about that. whether i succeed or not, i don't know. >> do you have huge sums of money? did you put away a lot of money because you knew that the state may come down on you? you were warned to get out of the country. my question is, is there billions of dollars that you now have access to that you can use in whatever political ambitions you have? >> i've got enough money, although billions of dollars -- it is not a some like that. but i do have enough money to feel myself independent. at the same time, i would consider it incorrect to use the money that i have in order to solve political problems. first of all, that would be dangerous for my supporters and

people who think like me because the authorities could apply sanctions towards them. secondly, i feel it incorrect when people resolve general political goals without putting their own resources into these solutions. if there is a task that people feel needs to be solved, they give money for this. if people aren't giving money for solving a particular task, that means that task is not important for these people. >> is your argument with the russian system or with vladimir putin? >> i consider that the current problems of russia don't have to do only with a specific person, with putin. he is without a doubt a

representative of this system. he is without a doubt its cornerstone around which the system is focusing more and more. by the way, this is his fundamental instability. but the problem is not just him. the problem is that russian society has not formulated the question properly for itself. the question is asked as follows, if not putin, then who? this leaves beyond the scope of discussion the whole system itself. i think the question should be posed differently. if not putin, then what? and what is a normal law-based state with separation of powers with the transfer of powers to local government authorities

the government closest to the people. this is regular elections to replace people in power, through honest elections. if putin would agree to follow this path, which i really doubt but if he did agree to follow this path, then there would be no personal aspects for me with this. >> you told me before you do not hate him. >> no. i naturally can't say that i love him, that i have good feelings about him. it is hard for me to feel good about a person who has sent me to jail for 10 years. >> how deep is the fear of going back to prison for you? you have been there. it robs you of 10 years. it robs you of years with your family. it robs you of things beyond the

things you had to endure. talk to us about what you lost in 10 years. that you can never get back. >> of course, in a human life between age 40 and 50 is not the worst part of one's life. one could have spent it in a lot better way. of course, time between when my children were four years old and when my children are 15 years old -- this is time that i would have loved to spend with them. of course, my wife, my parents

would have liked to see me more frequently. i'm not talking about myself personally because i probably -- in this system, i was probably the most stable element in this whole system. but i feel very bad for my family of course. i feel very bad for the family. and for me, this loss that they bore over these 10 years, that's something that can't be returned just by the fact that i'm going to do everything to try to somehow return it.

but still, that's life. >> the 10 years, in terms of the physical toll on you, was their torture? you've talked about how cold it was, and that was part of it. but you said this was not a gulag. >> yes, of course. a russian prison is not the gulag. russian prisons, even in those 10 years that i spent within their walls, things improved. only very recently, this year was there a law adopted or at least passed in the state duma that makes the situation for prisoners worse. it allows security to beat them without any control. but still, this is not the gula g.

i was able to position myself in such a way in prison that people treated me with sufficient respect. nevertheless, for this -- and not just for this -- i had to deal with the problems in jail through resistance. in prison, there's only one game that you can play, and that's your life. you can only stake your life. you can do a hunger strike. that means you need to either put your life on the line, or they don't take you seriously. if you have put your life on the line and you haven't held out to the end, that's it. you are a nobody. i had to do this four times.

i very carefully pick my battles , because like any normal person, i didn't want to die. but i was prepared to go all the way each time, and my opponents understood that. all four times, they did compromise with me. >> what did they compromise on? >> one of the most lengthy stages of resistance was when my former employee who was very ill with aids, they refused to transfer him to a hospital. i and other people -- it was not just me -- i and several other people managed to get him moved to a hospital. there was also a very difficult situation when ledebedev was

thrown into the dungeon and we were told he would sit there forever. there were a couple other unpleasant situations. there was no way out except to do this. that is normal in jail. >> there were others who also participated in hunger strikes while you were there, not just you. >> of course. but it is hard for me to say to what extent these people were ready to go all the way. that's their choice. i never told anybody to join this. your attitude to your own life is an extremely personal attitude. >> how did you get to the point where you were willing to put your life on the line? what was the process? how did you come to the moment in which you said, i have to do

this? >> you know, i believe that there is someone who stands above us higher than us. i believe that at some moment we all will need to give an answer for what we've done or not done in life before him. and i believe that he does not have a good attitude toward suicide. so i needed to know, will he understand why i did this or not? when i felt that he would understand me, then i put my life on the line. >> what was the longest hunger strike you endured? 10 days? >> usually -- the usual was

around 10 or 11 days, yes. one was unannounced, 28 days but the toughest one was not that. the toughest was the six-day dry hunger strike, which means without drinking also. i thought that the end was near. >> and you were at peace with yourself? >> well, i was not afraid anymore. its interesting later after the authorities did compromise, i had to force myself to start drinking again. i didn't even want to drink. a dry hunger strike is when you refuse to drink. on the sixth day, you don't even want to drink.

>> what do you see? >> hallucinations. >> after 10 years, they released you. you've talked about this before. but not on american television. what were the conditions? how did that come about? you were discovered that you would be leaving. >> i knew that there were talks going on because my lawyers were telling me that such talks were going on, but i heard putin's talk on tv -- there was a tv in the camp, of course. the people who saw him together with me felt that. then the talk was about when this would happen. i was convinced this would take place very quickly because i

know the style that our authorities function in. indeed, it was 2:00 a.m., i was woken up and told that a car had come for me and i was about to be transported. the person who came for me told me, even though he's formally taking me for transport to another facility, he said, in the evening, you'll be home. what he didn't know was that i was being deported to germany. >> which is where your mother was? >> in this time, my mother had gone through the first stage of treatment and returned to russia. but they nevertheless deported me to germany. that's -- how should i say this -- a bureaucratic game.

>> what role did the germans play? >> i think they played an important role. there wasn't any one single reason why putin decided to release me. he even had the alternative -- he could release me or start the third criminal case against me. this was a very small window of opportunity, when putin was thinking about the olympics, and crimea was nowhere even on the horizon. in those two months, the fact that we are able to use these two months that we had, is thanks to people from germany.

>> there were times in which you could have gotten out early. all you had to do was say, "i'm guilty." >> i didn't try. >> but they offered. >> nobody ever talked about anything with me, but i was told publicly many times, and once even president clinton said publicly -- president putin said publicly that if khodorkovsky admits his guilt, we are prepared to quickly and positively examine the question of his release. >> who did he see that to? the press? did anybody follow up and say what did you mean? or you just simply dismiss that because you would never admit guilt? >> i never even started

discussing it. it was obvious for me that this is impossible. >> was it clemency or pardon that got you out? because, authorities recognized your mother's illness. that is a humane thing to do. was it that? or do you think they just wanted you out of russia? >> the formal position of the authorities was that it is a humanitarian gesture. actually, i think that for the authorities it was not very acceptable to release me at the end of my term that is without any further obligations. they were not comfortable at starting a third case because

nobody in society was looking at this as something just and fair anymore. so in this situation, when you don't want to release a person without any strings just when the term ends, and on the other hand, you don't want to start up an unpopular case that society is not going to support, the humanitarian aspect became a good way out for everybody. we need to understand that if i had remained in jail after the start of the crimean events then of course i would remain there for life. >> why is that? because you were going to speak out? >> well of course, i wouldn't have kept silent but because the authorities in a situation

when relations with the west are still torn up has no point in having yet another headache in the person of me at large. ♪

>> you told me this in a conversation we had, that someone from the outside had said to you -- correct me if i don't remember this correctly -- they said to you, you have to assume you will never get out. that's the mindset you have to have. only then can you survive. correct? >> this was my approach to psychological survival. i said to myself i'm here for good, and i've got to deal with my life as the life of an invalid limited, restricted --

with more freedom than somebody sitting in a hospital bed. i said, there are people who survived, who have only one finger that moves, people that are totally paralyzed. they make scientific discoveries. how am i worse? >> there is also this -- when the second trial came out many people look at that as the most eloquent thing you've ever said. what went into that public statement at the time of the second trial? which you defiantly spoke to putin and the russian system? >> i spent a lot of time thinking about what i should

say, because i understood that i'm in prison for good. and whatever i would say would make no difference on my fate. at that point, i decided i wanted people to understand why i'm choosing such a fate the fate of that i've chosen. it was very important that i be understood. i have friends out at liberty, i have children out at liberty, i have my family out at liberty and i didn't know will i have another opportunity to tell them directly? so i said what i thought, what i

consider -- i tried to make it so that people would understand me. it seemed to me that i succeeded at this. >> you clearly did. when you came out, there were those who wondered about what the arrangement was, wondered whether you would come back to russia, wondered whether you would be politically active. you were careful to say that you were not going to oppose putin, that you were going to fight for the liberation of prisoners. because you saw experiences in prison that demanded that you in your own conscience, do something. you saw people ready to commit suicide. you saw people who had everything taken away from them and perhaps didn't have the strength you have to do anything. but why now? why not immediately when you came out of prison, other than

you wanted to get to know your family again, you wanted to give them time before you give the rest of us time? >> when i got out of jail, i very clearly told about all of the understandings and agreements i had, about all that i had written to president putin. i didn't conceal anything and i said everything totally publicly. in particular, i said that i'd asked for time -- until my formal release date to spend that time with my family. i don't know whether this was important for putin or not, but if i asked for this time for

that, i intended to -- and i did -- spend it specifically on what i said i would. i needed this. my family needed this. this is that obligation that i took upon myself. >> there are those who look at the tradition of dissidents in the soviet union and russia, and i mentioned some others. you know them well, you know their stories well. there are those who want you to be more defiant, almost a martyr. are you aware of that? how do you feel about that? they want you to say more. my question might be, can you say more?

are you holding back for any reason? do you believe that you have been as affiant of putin and russia as you possibly can? >> there are two approaches to expressing your personal position. the first approach i say what i feel, and it is not important to me how people will react to my words. in order to remain a responsible person but to take such a position, you got to be very confident that your soul has a very precise tuning fork that is that what you want to say is what needs to be said to people.

i'm not a saint. and i don't feel that my soul is such an absolutely precise tuning fork like that. i check what i want to say with reason. from the point of view of how this will reflect on those people on their interests those people who i consider important. and i've told you what group of people i consider important, and i probably haven't said but i will say right now, what interests i consider important. the interests are of course the interests of my country.

i check things with my reason and what my reason tells me i shouldn't say, you are never going to hear me say publicly. >> you check with your reason area tell me that again. you check with your reason. >> i check what i would like to say with my reason, for what kind of consequences will come from saying it. i'm never going to go about lying. but to restrict myself in what i do say, i do that, and i'm going to continue doing that. based on the reasoning that i've just described. >> what is your fear? do you fear today for your life?

do you fear further actions against you? do you fear there is only so far you can go? >> you know after 10 years, i have crossed the line of being afraid for my life many times. of course, i'm not going to throw myself in front of a moving train but to say that you can scare me with something -- i'd have a hard time saying that. at any rate, i don't feel any fear from my understanding of my vulnerability, my physical vulnerability.

that's fate. nothing is scary about that. that said, of course, i do fear the steps that may threaten those objectives that i serve. i do not want for someone to someday say that he could have done and should have done better , but didn't because, well he didn't bother to think about it. they may say that he didn't have enough talent. that's fine.

i only have as much talent as i have, no more. i only have so much strategic thinking as i have. but i'm going to try to do the best towards the achievement of my goals. >> there is this about you -- there was nothing about you before all this happened to you that would have predicted how you would respond. is there? people have said to me, i knew him as a businessman, and the strength he has shown, the values he has shown, the courage he has shown, i did not know were there. is this a case in which mikhail khodorkovsky simply had history thrust on him and he responded the way he did? in other words, this is simply a

case of a man who became something beyond what he ever imagined because he had to? >> i think you are absolutely right. i've spoken with many people who took part in combat. nearly all of them -- at least those who felt that they were able to speak openly about it told me that none of them knew about himself how he would behave in combat until that moment arrived. we just don't know. i think that within each of us, there is something that, under

certain conditions, forces us to jump into the water for a drowning person, or to run into a flaming house to save a person and it is how deep this is, and can this be taken out to the surface will you succeed in doing so when the time comes? you will not find that out until it actually happens. when i worked at the oil company , and one of our oil tank farms went on fire, that is a very dangerous situation. the firemen needed to run in there, to prevent the fire from spreading. you need to go 150 meters in a

special suit at a temperature of 800 degrees. some of the firemen decided to do it, and another part even though they'd been training all their lives for this, they couldn't do it. after that, we started conducting training every year. those people who weren't able to cross that line, they stepped aside themselves. but none of them knew whether he could or he couldn't until he had to do it immediately. >> and that was your case too. how did you come to find out that that was within you, to resist? was there a moment in which you said, i can't go this far, i will not submit? >> no. every moment, i asked myself,

can i let myself step back here? no. i can't retreat. ok, so there is no way out. you have to move forward. can i allow myself to retreat? if i can, fine, no problem. if i can't allow myself to retreat, then if i can't sign an admission of guilt because that would put under threat people who are absolutely innocent of anything they are going to be told, but your boss said you are thieves -- well then, you must be thieves -- i can't allow myself to do that. so there's no place to retreat. so there never was any vacillations in my soul or anything like that. >> do you feel like a hero? >> no, of course not.

a hero is something that stands out. in prison, at least in russian prison, the kind of people have to experience deep deep trials and tribulations because they can't do otherwise. there are a lot of people like that. maybe 10% 15%, who refuse to take it upon themselves to just sign a statement that they committed a crime that they didn't commit, or refused to finger somebody else and end up in jail themselves. like i said 10%, i'm just one of those. my case was a lot louder. >> at me go back to russia. what is the future for russia,

near and long-term? >> today, the economic situation is not very good. >> notwithstanding oil prices. >> yes, we are spending those resources that we've accumulated . the reasons are understandable. right now, the oil and gas industry has for the most part fallen under the political nomenclatura's management and these people have reduced efficiency in a great way. despite the high prices, expenditures are growing at the same pace or faster. nevertheless, we still do have reserves, i think, for some period of time. there should be enough of them. afterwards the prices don't jump up to $200 a barrel i

think the authorities are going to have a harder time explaining themselves to the people why it is that the people shouldn't partake in running the government despite the fact that the authorities themselves seem incapable of providing them with constant growth in their standard of living. the social contract between the people and the authorities was just that. you ensure us constant growth and we don't meddle in running the country. >> right, you take your politics, and we have a good life. >> yes, exactly so. strategically, if we talk about the strategic future, we understand that all authoritarian regimes, especially ones like this that

aren't even based on ideology are highly unstable. in order to retain power such authoritarian leaders are forced to burn the field all around themselves, which is what putin is doing. when such a person leaves, and we all leave sooner or later what will grow on this burnt field? whether it is going to be grain or wheat, it is hard to predict. but the situation is not going to be easy. that's pretty obvious. i fear that putin is going to bring the country to a crisis much more quickly than many would like. people, after all, do want to have a little bit more time to

live not having to think about difficulties. >> what is the scenario for bringing the country to that place for putin? how does he, in your own scenario, come to a point where he's failed and there is a consequence? >> there are three variants. the first scenario -- he lives until his natural demise, the way brezhnev did, a sad situation, but maybe not the worst for the country. >> a natural death. >> the second is also a rather customary one, the kruschev model.

in a tougher or less tough form left as the result of a conspiracy within their entourage. it is unpleasant, but also not necessarily the most frightening. the third way is a repeat of 1917, when a person brings the country to an economic crisis and we are certainly moving right in that direction. and when the question of power comes out -- the question of what will be the power goes out in the street. here, russians don't hold back. we don't know how to. if we start that -- yes. >> how long -- you believe that

could happen in russia? the 1917 scenario? >> everybody understands that this is the worst of the scenarios, but that you can't rule it out. everybody understands that. >> the kind of thing we see in hong kong today, we saw in the arab spring -- >> and what is the most unpleasant is that nobody can ever predict this. just suddenly, it happens. >> nobody can ever predict the match that lights the fire. >> all of us in russia remember the story with the last dictator of romania. a month before his downfall got some sort of huge number, really a huge number of votes. and then, literally, a month

later -- it was over. he finishes and it is a frightful finish. nobody needs that. in this situation what can come to power is anybody at all. ♪

>> good 2015, everyone. i am tom keene of "bloomberg surveillance" here in bull & bear at the waldorf-astoria. after we have seen in 2014 with new volatility, how about a stunning, unpredictable geo-politics, and out of the blue, the complete, total collapse of oil, that was the time to regroup. we have four wonderful guests to get you ready for next year. joining me here at bull & bear the steakhouse buried in a basement of the waldorf astoria, three floors above that train that