>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." > the chairman and ceo of american express is here.

the iconic credit card has been swiped by business traverse\ -- travelers for decades --. google chairman eric schmidt says can exempt off eyes -- ken exemplifies the -- american express has been a supporter of this program for a number of years. for that, i am both grateful and appreciative. thank you and it is good to have you here. tell me what informs you about the change elements and how a company responds. >> the times we live in today the convergence of the online and off-line world. it is resenting possibilities --

presenting possibilities. what is important is you cannot look at your business in a narrow way. but me give you one example. it would be wrong for us to view ourselves as a company facilitating payments. if we look at one of the major developments it is platform companies. amazon, alibaba google. we view ourselves is not just a company facilitating payments but as a platform company that is delivering services. we have the most integrated payment platform. what we are focused on is how do we change the commerce experience and become even more meaningful in people's lives. >> it is important to define who

you are in times of -- terms of what kind of company you are. definition may change as the world changes. >> i think what is important here, charlie, and i believe this strongly. i often talk to ceos. what is the soul of your company? what is the core, what you stand for? for american express, we have focused on two hallmarks. reinvention inconstancy -- and constancy. we have to reinvent. we have reinvented for 164 years. we also have to have a constancy of values career the heart of soul -- heart of values.

the heart and soul of our company's service, trust. >> can you imagine where you will be in 10 years? >> 10 years is still a short time. here is what i will tell you. the formfactor of payments will change and i do not care if plastic goes away. that is not what is relevant. what is relevant is what is the business platform we are operating on? back to the integrated platform, american express has relationships with birch it's -- merchants. we have relationships with the end-user customer. that information and the data is critical. what it does is gives us insights. i know where you charlie rose spends, what time he spends. i can predict what are different items he will have a greater interest in.

i think we are going to be more involved in e-commerce journey and the lifestyle. >> your competition will be? >> i think our competition is anyone in the service business. air competition will -- the competition will be other payment providers. our competition will be anybody offering services. i am partnering with companies that are competitors. that our friend ami's -- are frenemies. i work with compans >> they are in payments commerce. we are bringing buyers and sellers together.

you have to look more broadly at payments. we have the largest rewards-based program in the world. the reality is, you can access our membership reward points in a new york city taxi uber, and airbnb to pay your bill. you cannot just look at our business as simply facilitating a payment. >> tom friedman he is talking about the world is fast. the genius that companies like uber bring is speed. did that resonate? >> it absolutely resonates. at the end of the day, speed is absolutely critical. another thing that uber brings i think we are bringing, i think there are a range of successful companies doing this -- speed, simplicity, convenience, and

being seamless. if you look at the uber payments experience, you are not even going through the act. and, what we've done is, with uber, made it a seamless experience to earn points and redeem points. so the ability to operate with speed is an essential requirement of success. >> do you believe that the consumer understands what american express is today and how it is changing? >> i think it is evolving. >> is that part of an education that you, as ceo, have to do? >> when you think about the consumer, the consumer is not going to analyze the business.

what a consumer is going to say is, is this a company that understands me and is meeting my needs? is this a company that is forming a connection? what i'm convinced is that consumers believe that with american express they form both a rational and emotional connection. but what we are also doing is, we are making the american express brand a more welcoming inclusive brand. the way i characterize this for our organization is, we are going back to the future. 164 years ago, what was glamorous about that? the travelers check business had no income requirements. one of the things the digital transformation has changed is, scale has been redefined. we have to be meaningful in all

people's lives. the affluent and the non-affluent. we have a higher purpose of service. i also want to have a higher purpose of meeting all needs. >> you have said, one of the points i make consistently to our people is that we want to become the company that will put us out of business. you want to become the person that disrupts american express. >> absolutely. at the end of the day, if you are the one on offense, if you are the one bringing about change, you are going to be a winner. and the creative process is moving things forward. challenging the status quo, not standing still. if you stand still, you fall back. what i want, the people in our organization to be focused on --

we need to be disruptors. the fear was that if we entered the card business, it would cannibalize the travelers check business. fortunately, the ceo decided we are going to enter the card business. >> too much upside not to do it. x we should take the risk. i always think, if i am going to be cannibalized i want to make that choice. >> do you regret any choices you have made as you have led american express? where you say, if i could have

done it over, i would have gone the other way? >> it is more subtle. the reality is, as far as the strategic moves, i feel very good about the moves that we've made. i think if there were mistakes it is not moving quick enough on people and ideas. >> not moving quick enough. >> it goes back to the speed. you can overcome that. and we have. but if anything, i would like to move even faster. >> tell me about partnerships. walmart, you have this thing bluebird service. >> what is terrific about this partnership with walmart -- it also points to the importance of partnerships in general, because no single company, i don't care how large you are, can operate with the speed and scale that is

necessary in this marketplace alone. what walmart provides us is, they have millions of customers who in fact need a product like bluebird. there are 70 million americans who are unbanked or under-banked, who don't qualify for credit cards. frankly, what we are providing to them is a low-cost product that is on a digital platform. they can use it as a plastic card, but they can also use their mobile phone. what it provides them are a set of capabilities for their financial affairs. it allows them to make payments. it allows them to deposit.

and what has opened up is an opportunity that many of these customers, who could not qualify for a credit card, now can shop online. the other thing that walmart has done, they've come up with a very innovative product called savings catcher, where you can look on your mobile phone, look at the barcode of a product you are purchasing, and in a 12-mile radius, if you could have purchased the product at a lower cost at another store, they will refund the difference to you on a gift card. if you use a bluebird card, you get double the savings. so this is meeting a need, an unmet need, at a lower cost, and it is opening up a tremendous opportunity. >> business is of great concern to you. >> what is very important is small businesses.

this is not an issue of small businesses versus big businesses. big companies generate substantial opportunities for small businesses. but i think as we all know the reality is that 23 million small businesses in the united states, they employ half the private workforce, generate 2/3 of the net new jobs, and what we did 25 years ago is, we were one of the first financial services companies that put together a business unit that was 100% dedicated to meeting the needs of small businesses. what do small businesses want? they want more business. they want help with marketing. we have created an online community for small businesses

where we bring experts in to work with them. >> on their own budget? >> absolutely. we are trying to take the resources and capabilities of a large company and bring those to small businesses. small businesses are essential for our community. what people sometimes miss is the level of cooperation and collaboration between big business and small businesses. but the success of small businesses and the growth is essential for our economy. >> we went through a terrible experience in 2007 and 2008. dodd-frank came out of that. a lot of people were hurt, as you well know. have we taken the measures as a country to minimize the possibility of that happening again, or is it inevitable?

>> a few points i would make charlie. first, the fact that we have been able to come out of the financial crisis as a country as we did speaks to the resilience of this country. for all the criticism of our political system, and frustration that we all have had, it speaks to the strength of that political system. it speaks to the culture in this country. frankly, if you said to me in 2009, ken, here is where we would be in the economy in 2014 -- >> you would have said? >> i would have said, charlie, you are way optimistic. there was a fear that we were falling off the cliff.

what i do think is that with a regulation that have been put in place, with the changes in business practices, it does not mean we wouldn't fall back, but i think the progress that we've made is substantial. the issue at the end of the day in our society is still income inequality and the fact that the benefits of the recovery have not trickled down. you seem to be speaking out more. is it a responsibility for your own company or a combination? >> one of the things i believe in strongly i guess it was a

, maxim that i got from my father, he said, the one thing you can control is your performance. and that is what you need to focus on. in first taking over as ceo, i wanted to make sure i performed. i also believe very strongly that companies, depending on how you run them, can make a major difference in our society. i really believe that. so i focus on trying to not just have our company, american express, be successful financially. i wanted us to be one of the most respected and trusted companies in the world. one of the things i believe in charlie, is sustainable success. it is really hard. the second is, i also believe that whether you are in the private or public sector, it is

important that you make a difference in society. corporations exist because society allows us to exist. >> thank you for coming. good to see you. ♪

>> ava duvernay is here. choose the director of the film -- she is the director of the film "selma"." it arrives with a particular relevance in america. events of the past two months remind us that remains -- race remains a big issue today. here's the trailer. >> he has supporters. detroit, new york, los angeles. fighting large-scale arrests and sympathy margins. >> i'm very aware of that. i know that -- i need to know

what he is about to do next. >> dr. king is here. >> mr. president, in the south there have been thousands of racially motivated murders. we need your help. >> dr. king, this thing is going to have to wait. >> it cannot wait. >> selma it is. >> is the next great battle. >> soma is the place. >> dr. king. >> that white like can hit -- boy can hit. >> it is unacceptable. they use their power to keep us voiceless. those who have gone before us say, no more. >> they are trying to get inside of your head. >> enough is enough. >> we built the path rock by rock.

>> we must march. we must stand up. >> you march those people into rural alabama, it is going to be open season. >> may i have a word? >> there is no word to be have. -- had. >> the people. >> there are 70 million people watching. >> these pictures are going around the world. >> we must make a massive demonstration. white, black, and otherwise, come to selma. >> looks like an army out there. >> revolution goes on and on. this revolution goes on and on. >> mine eyes have seen the glory. glory, hallelujah. what happens when a man says enough is enough? >> i am pleased to have ava

duvernay at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you. >> can regulations -- congratulations. it was not easy to make this film. >> it was a journey but a beautiful one. >> tell me. >> the journey began before i even came on board. it began with our leading man david oyelowo, who so desired this be in the world. he made it so. he brought me on board. he brought oprah winfrey. an example of an actor taking charge of his own destiny. knowing this story spoke to such a larger time and issue. i am fortunate a friend basically got me this gig. >> him being a friend. >>there has not been a film about someone so pivotal in the history of america. >> when we talk about the full journey --

>> documentaries. >> never a cinematic, theatrical major motion picture. a retelling and approach since the 50 years of the events we chronicled. you have been bioethics about other folks, but king has a was been treated tangentially. just part of the atmosphere. >> why? >> a big part is it is a complex , tender time in our history that is a challenge to delve into. walk away from unscathed in a way. there are so many perspectives and points of view about what the time was, who he was, what was going on. >> that is what makes it so rich. parks a lot of people to please though. that is one of the reasons there have been folks that have backed away from it.

yes, it is rich, but it is collocated -- comp located -- kabul kate it -- complicated. so many constituents that have to be a knowledge to. figuring out how to treat that. previous filmmakers, that has been one of the issues of the intellectual property. this is a film with you know, a person of color at the center for that is not at the top of the list of the studios to make. once they are made, there is an embracing of them but they are not the first things people think of that are going to bring an box office. >> other directors were associated with it. >> over the years, there have been beautiful filmmakers that have attempted to think about the material. >> what story did you want to tell? >> i wanted to tell a story of the people. just studying history, i'm an

african-american studies major from ucla. studying history was always vibrant to me. he was a leader of people. a leader of leaders. one of many people, the most beautiful and eloquent voice of them, arguably. but he was speaking for people would >> this is a film about voices. >> that is what i believe. great minds spurred on and pushed on by the people. weak call the film --? we call the film "selma"" not "king," for reason. >> the governor of alabama. >> all of those voices, not a monolith. people with all kinds of ideas

about how to achieve a quality. justice. that is one of the things we tried to to create. lots of conflicting points of view but they coalesced and were presented in a specific way by king. >> what were the restrictions? i mean self-imposed, legal rights and others. >> we don't have his real words. i say it matter-of-factly. we do not have the intellectual property that is his words. >> because? >> they belonged to somebody else. >> you can to rent or buy them? >> it was more money than we had. the conversation we did not pursue, the cinematic rights to his words are already with another film maker. >> that is interesting. >> not me. >> you must have had conversations about the other film maker.

>> ultimately, our film is about three months of the voting rights marches in selma. the estate and family should have a film that tells the whole life. those rights are reserved for that, which say film i would like to see. >> so what i. -- so would i. this does rekindle an interest in dr. king come with man, who he was and why he was. all the complexities of him. >> he was a fascinating reticle. he really was. he has been homogenized -- the nonviolence is all people know. he believed in peace and made a great speech and then he was murdered. there was so much more there. it is fascinating, a robust history of a radical thinker. that has been lost.

the deification in some ways. >> you wanted to avoid that. >> at all costs. that was our vital mission, for sure. >> david, where does his interest come from? he wrote letters to get you as the director. >> he worked with me on a small film i made. >> he impressed -- was impressed enough that he put his own reputation on the line. >> the films i made previously were independents that had been well received. my biggest budget up until this point was 200,000 dollars. it was david who advocated for me in a way that is very rare in the industry. for his appeal to be embraced and approved is rare.

this all came together in a way that is outside the way films are usually made. >> his performance is that totally him? how did you try to help him shave the performance? >> i would just be a partner any performance. but it is completely him. >> give him the freedom to do what he can do. >> be there to support him. nudge, push a bit. to question and challenge, as questions about motivations and intent?. but when you have an actor as exquisite as he is with a reservoir of emotions, so many places to go, it is kind of take your hands off the wheel and let him do his thing. >> this is david talking about you. >> she has a directorial voice like nobody i encountered. that's when i started lobbying for her to direct "selma"." >> what is that voice?

>> she minds humanity from characters like nobody else i have worked with. she is more interested in silences than words. of course, she is a writer-director so she is interested in words. there is some should -- something she does off the line as well is on the line. i have been taught that true acting is reacting to read i saw her get things out of me that were not -- i did not know were there. in plain dr. king, i cannot afford to further accentuate what we already knew. i need somebody to guide me to what i did not read >> how did you do that? >> i just try to remain present with the actors. there are 10,000 things going on at any given moment. at the point i am facing an actor attempting to partner with them in the performance, it is about giving them whatever they'd.

-- whatever they need. >> tell me about your journey. coming out of ucla, he began a publicist. -- you became a publicist. you may be the first publicist. >> there may be three of us. a small club. >> they put you close to directors. >> that is what publicity gave me. >> including spielberg. >> spielberg michael mann. >> when did you say, i thought i could do this? >> the set of a michael mann movie, "collateral." tom cruise and jamie foxx were on the set. there was something about these people a great vp and director. i thought, this is something i would like to do. parks did you want to make films about the african-american experience?

>> i am most interested in the lives of people on the margins. as a filmmaker just getting started, trying to find my voice, i was immediately interested in the lives of luck women specifically. brown women. -- of black women specifically. brown women. >> i have read black women filmmakers are a small group. >> it is a small but mighty tried. >> what do you want to do? >> there are women who came before me who did beautiful work but there names are not being amplified ike mine is. there are contemporaries making beautiful things. i'm constantly approached i women who are interested in getting into film. it is a challenge.

women filmmakers. how we are able to grow within the industry. which is so often not interested in that blossoming. it is a lot about the sisterhood of talking to one another and trying to keep everyone fortified. >> this is happening with female film directors of all colors for example reese witherspoon. >> she did some amazing things. >> producing films a variety. some she stars in and some she does not. the idea is to give women -- >> not to give them power. for women to take the power. >> that is exactly what it is. >> the self-determination. i try to work from a place without permission. i'm not working in a permission-based way. i encourage as all to try to find our own way and not wait. >> it does give them some sense of incentive. to speak to the power, to seek

the opportunity to seek the things -- to do the things they have the talent to do. brooded over come on board? -- where did oprah, on board? >> she came on board and everything started to vibrate with an energy. a real trust, a momentum, a propulsion. when she came on board, everything took off. it was an amazing group of producers around the project early on. it had hit a point where needed fresh air and she provided that. >> did she want to be any the film or was that your idea? >> she did not want to be in the film. >> i didn't think so. [laughter] >> she had been in the butler. >> she is so gracious.

when she is around, the spotlight goes to her. she did not want that to be the case. she wanted the spotlight to be on the people the leaders we were amplifying. that was one of the issues for her. and every movie she is in, she is hitting someone. she takes a good swing back. i don't know what that is about, but eventually, she came on board and did you do for work. >> here is a -- did beautiful work. >> here's an excerpt showing oprah. >> you work for mr. dunn at the rest home. what would he say if one of his girls was stirring up a fuss? >> i am just trying to register to vote. >> recite the constitution's

preamble. you know a preamble is? >> we be people of the united states in order to form a more perfect union -- >> how many county judges in alabama? >> 67. >> name them. >> does it move you every time you see it? >> it does. i had not seen that clip in a while. i remember the day shooting that. it was the day that my angelo died -- maia angelo died.

we said, i do not have to do it today. she said, i will do it for all the women who actually endured this humiliation. all through the film, her intention was to illustrate the emotions of what is in the history book. it is one thing to read and say voting rights were denied and there were literacy tests in play. to see what someone had to go through, go to a window where you knew there was no one for you. no one rooting for you. no one wanted you to do it. you believe in your own personhood enough to want to do it too indoor it. -- to endure it. >> what do you think you have accomplished?

>> the goal was to breathe life into these stories that i feel even for black people, have been top line. the key facts. it does not live and breathe, it is not part of the dna as it was for the previous generation. there is a disconnect. in terms of an understanding and empathy, a true connection. for that reason, my hope is that the film has put some meat on these bones. the skeleton of history has a little blood. >> you talk to some of the people who lived through this experience. what did they think? >> they asked me to be careful with the story. to show what really happened. they lived in a state sanctioned

terrorist environment. there was terrorism happening. you could not move freely. you could not express yourself without there being repercussions to your livelihood, your home. to break through that, this was 50 years ago. to break through that and say, i will drink water from wherever i want. i will vote and determine who governs in my local area. to do so, i have to put my body on the line to do it because it is not law. that is what i was asked to be careful with. that was important to me. >> did you make it your point to make sure you had seen "eyes on the prize," all the great documentaries? >> i had seen them before. the beautiful thing about this for me, people ask how was the

jump made from small indies to the larger film? i knew the history already. i had studied the civil rights movement. my father is from alabama. this is part of my family history and legacy. in addition, reading everybody in the film is a real person and they almost all wrote an autobiography record's many star -- autobiography. many are still alive to talk to. >> what do they say now? someone said, david what he did for me was capture the spirit of martin. that is what he said. he didn't necessarily sound like him or look like him. he was his spirit.

>> yes. congressman lewis as well coming to the set and seeing david and talking to him as dr. king. that is what we were trying to do, capture the spirit of the time. this was a movement at its peak for 13 years. collocated relationships and the nuances of strategy and policy -- complicated relationships and the nuances of strategy and policy. our goal was to -- the best word is the spirit of it. you cannot be a mimic. this is what we were talking about with david. we were not interested in mimicry or imitation. when you see him, do you feel king? you have an understanding of him as a man? >> a man of complex of the end dimension. which we have to touch on. then there is the question of

lyndon johnson. much controversy, some have worked closely with him. they have basically said johnson and king were partners in this, they were not adversaries. do you accept that? >> they passed one of the most progressive and crucial legislation around civil rights. >> which do you see as johnson's role? someone who is there as a partner as dr. king, understood the political difficulties, but wanted to take his knowledge of washington and the congress and use it for dr. king cost-benefit -- dr. king's benefit, or someone who did not want to make it a priority? and had to be dragon? -- and had to be dragged into? >> dragged into is not the word i would use. >> what would be the word you think would characterize lyndon johnson?

>> i think he was reluctant. the timing wasn't right. we said so in the film, he says, we just passed the 1964 act and is not being enforced. let's wait a second, get through rate society. -- do these -- get through great society. do these things first. did he not want to do it is not what we talked about. did he wouldn't -- not want to do it now is what we explored having just past the civil rights act and took office for the second time. this was the wrong time for the president but a crucial time for the civil rights movement, as people were dying. we were coming off the four little girls being bombed in birmingham. the idea that black people could not even participate in their own right to justice. you could not sit on a jury if

you are not registered to vote. as a black person, you could not register to vote. these were issues of life and death and they could not wait read that is what we talked about. people having a challenge of johnson's legacy, the real deterioration of his legacy is the fact that the very bill he made so, the voting rights act he made so, is almost no more. that is the legacy that has been denigrated more than a scene in a film that you feel totally might not be exactly right. but i would argue our film does not show johnson in the negative light, but as a man who had a complex relationship with king. their relationship was not a skip through the park handholding thing. akin to a consensus but it was a rocky road. -- they came to a consensus but it was a rocky road. i say johnson was very important.

r johnson character in the film gets wild applause at the end of the film when he makes the, we shall overcome speech. that moment has been constructed to be the triumph that it is. nobody is taking anything away by saying these are two great minds. neither man is a saint or center. we're playing with the gray area where life really happens. >> -- they were real human beings. their relationship was, located. -- was complicated. i am not here to congratulate. what we were looking for was the truth as we saw it. a lot of questions, gray areas permit that is what we made. at no point did we say johnson was not the hero.

at no point do we say he is not important. the challenge for us to hear, folk saying -- it is important in it when people say we should shun it because it does have a pristine view of kobelbj -- >> we open on credit, the moment -- coretta, before the nobel prize. it was important to have that moment of a husband and wife fiddling over a tight. the subtext was the worry over his stature he would -- overshot -- that his stature

would overshadow the movement. also, he was a man. balancing challenges with what it feels like to be on a public stage. that is wherey that scene is there. then we see him at his full height, about give a speech. >> did he write all his speeches? >> from what i have researched, yes. i have showed moments, moments where you have thinking -- him thinking about a speech. he had a pen and paper and figured it out. >> you do see this close relationship he had with the people who were risking their lives. especially ralph, who is that -- and young. -- andy young. >> we populated the film with

important -- it was important to bring them in. they were also dynamic -- all so dynamic. the depth of the intellect, the strategies, the tactics when they came together is sizzling. the texture is something we wanted to capture. >> for you, what is the essential quality of dr. king? >> he was a voice for the voiceless. literally, through the speeches and the gorgeousness of his oratory. also to be able to listen to somebody possible in who might not have been able to articulate. to speak for them in a way that we had not seen before. >> that is what he was. he was a voice career that is essential to what his life was about. him as a man? >> the word that comes to mind is the grantee. -- dignity.

he was dignity personified. certainly compassion. a freedom fighter. a truth seeker. at the core he was a pastor to everyone around him. andy young says the one part of the film that he had never seen was king stand up to johnson face to face. there is a scene where johnson and king stand face to face. king is standing there looking right at his size. -- eyes. our goal was to symbolize the power of both sides coming together. i think the dignity he demanded of everyone around him for everyone around him is what he means to me. >> thank you.

great to have you here. congratulations. >> thank you so much. >> thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

>> i'm mark halperin. >> with all due respect to those who say that elvis would have been 80 years old tonight, we are having dinner with him. >> how about sports fans? john boehner singing when you "squish" upon a star. first, the three terror suspects in france have been identified. paris is in mourning and on edge.