>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> nominations for the academy awards were announced this morning in los angeles.

" redwood trust tojo -- grand bu dapest hotel" lengthy par. jordan meet is methane, the entertainment -- joining me is my dream. surprises in the announcements? >> all anyone can talk about is the so-called whitewashing of the acting categories. it for only the second time since 1989, will be an actress nominations go to white men and women. it is trending and it is something that people are asking questions about what is the reason that their white is your last time it happened was 2011. >> i assume the leading person

they thought was david. >> david, a fantastic of martin luther king. in addition to him ava was the first opportunity to nominate an african-american funeral director. the combination has people scratching their heads. >> take a look at who the nominees are they are all great performances and so is david. stephen carroll but michael qiagen. -- michael keaton. these are all great performances. >> it is hard to play the game where you slump an actor in for the other.

>> what is the answer? >> at the heart of this, we are talking about something that appeals to you at your core. i had a conversation with jessica saul and i was telling her about boyhood." richard linkletter made this over the course of years and it features his character growing up with patricia arquette as his mother. the movie of the old with the scenes -- fueled with the -- appealed was the scenes were even heart sold the car and she said it was patricia arquette. film like that, one film to someone for a variety of different reasons to boil that

into why this film is difficult. >> "birdman?" >> it blew me away. it was not going to be one of our covers are the fact that michael keaton is a personal hero of mine. but we went to see that movie at fox searchlight pictures and the editor and i looked at each other. there is a thing you do when you go to see a screening. it is hosted by someone who was working with the company and you will not talk about that or they are. there are things you want to dictate and it is not polite -- nitpick and you it is not polite. but we immediately talked about rearranging things to put the film on the cover and that is what we did with a very arresting portrait of michael

keyaton. the screenplay was one of the most ambitious things through christ best actress. >> would say julia more as the position. people feel that her is one for the ages -- julianna moore. it carries an important point because people thought the story of stephen hawking but the resume oversized and felicity jones -- but there is another side and felicity jones plays the wife. christ best supporting actress? >> -- >> best supporting actress? >> there was a gasp went was nominated. her daughter spends are greeted

-- spins off. she tries to find herself and it is a voyage of inspiration. moreover -- laura dern has not been as much of a presence. talk about grand budapest hotel ." >> the prior three movies you created did not make as much money and you can ask why is that? was this the culmination of the career, people familiar enough with his personal brand that is just to the right moment? -- just hit the right moment?

this is an imaginative film, and if you look at a majority, you are. the surest way to end up nominated is to write something that is true to life or based on real-life or even easier, recent autobiography. >> what might go on now and the end of the voting? >> the most important thing is you need people who see your movie. ithat is one of the most difficult things to do. we have a weekly magazine we are putting out, everything from movies to books and the biggest challenges to put aside time to see a movie that is three hours long. there is politicking that goes on, behind the scenes conversations. below par to find ways to adjust aspersions on zones -- people

try to find ways to cast aspersions on the films. that is one thing that has besieged "selma." people are trying to say it is not real life and filmmakers have to take liberties. course met, -- >> met editor of entertainment weekly -- "entertainment weekly." a second. it has been one week since the attack on charlie hebdo." -- "charlie hebdo." they have capitalized on the alien visitation -- alienation felt by members of the muslim community.

the attacks have reignited debate about islam and freedom of speech. leaders from the muslim world from the unity rally despite domestic crackdowns. joining us a professor from the university of california riverside and the author of "there is no god but god." in new york, a fellow at lebron james institutions under for the middle east policy -- at the brookings institute for the middle east policy. i am pleased to have each of them here. let me begin with this tweet, you say the more that we present opposition to paris attacks and support the right to blaspheme the more likely we are to alienate muslims. >> let make it clear distinction here.

there is not a cultural divide on the mass slaughter of innocents which are not even suspect -- and we shall not even suspect that french muslims would be ok with that. this presumption of collective guilt that we are wondering what the muslims releasing, that is different -- really think, that is different than the larger role of blasphemy. that is where there is a divide in france and it is possible to come down the killings but to not -- condemn the killings but not be ok with the right to blaspheme. that is what you would your french muslims say in. but if we present it that the only way to be against the attacks is to stream, we are reporting for us a difficult

position. >> you said the latter. the answer to islamic violence is islamic peace, the answer to islamic bigotry is islamic pluralism. which is why i put the onus on the muslim community. but i recognize that work is being done in divorce of condemnation -- and the voice of condemnation is deafening. >> the issues with europe as was local is that it is -- well put is that it is difficult to navigate the cultural trend of the continent. it europe does not look like it did 50 years ago thanks to ross migration and the pourousness of the borders of the european union. there is anti-islamic sentiment

that has gripped large parts of europe and has led to the rise of neofascist national parties like ukip in britain and the national friends and friends, -- national front in france, who will be emboldened by the terrorist attacks. why i said that is that we have tended to as the result of this tragedies retreat to preconceived positions, be it the muslim notion that europe is apparently anti-muslim -- through monthly anti-muslim -- viralantly anti-muslim or the idea that muslims are a fifth column. my idea is that for there to be a little ground, it has to come from muslims themselves european muslims, who are

providing an counter narratives to the puritanism that has infected the communities across the continent. >> michael, i raise this question. abrams used to be on the national security council and seven "the people doing these things view themselves as good muslims. that has to be addressed and explained." >> of course they do. we see a friend who say they are not muslims and who want me to excommunicate these people -- who are we to excommunicate these people? there are good muslims and non-muslims and good muslims and that christian. what -- bad christians. we cannot look muslims is one category. -- lump muslims in one category. we should not set this up as an

us versus them were we are talking about the french society reaction and then the muslims as a discrete set. i would imagine there would be concentrations of use that also a spectrum of views much like in other communities. i think getting away from the collectivized notion where the actions of some represent all is an important job across the board. so yes, they are muslims. there are problems in corners of the muslim world. there are problems in muslim majority countries with radicalization. these are issues that are a part of the story of islam today. not the majority but they are part of the story. >> what ought to be the debate? >> i think the debate should be about the limits of free speech,

particularly in the united states versus europe. it both have very different definitions of what constitutes free speech and what passes for offensive. i would note that in france, and in many countries in europe they have laws against denial of the holocaust or defaming jews. there is a bit more of a past when it comes to speech against muslims but theyre also things can be restrictive and people have gone to jail in the u.k. for splitting liable or slant -- spreading libel or slander or condemning an entire group. the united states is much more freewheeling and all of us have a more american experience of these things which is why i do not think any of us are calling for the curtailment of free speech but i think all of us

also understand there is a lot of sensitivity among muslims to negative depictions of the profit mohammed. i would hope that responsible citizens would be sensitive to those sensitivities in the muslim community. >> i want to do this because i have wanted to do this for a while. what is the difference between the terms islamist and jihadist? >> it is an important question because right now there is a tendency to cast all islamists is the problem but we have to make -- as the problem but we have to make distinctions. and islamist is someone who believes that islam should play a role in public life. many islamists participate in democratic elections and believe in political parties, some degree of realism. -- pluralism.

if we are talking about jihadists, they do not believe about these things. the idea of having a parliament were people can vote -- where people can vote, that is anathema. the idea of lumping them all together, we forget that isis and other extremist groups accused groups like the muslim brotherhood of being disbelievers. but even within the world of islam you have considerable diversity and we have to figure step back and say there are different approaches to expressing islam through politics. we as americans do not have much islamists but we do have to make an effort -- half to like islamists but we do have to make an effort to understand them. we will push people to be more radical because they will not feel they have a stake.

>> wants is critical, some groups are violent -- the nuance is critical, some groups are violent and some are not, but it is worth interrogating the center of islamist thought. what does that mean? is it a conveyor belt, a way station on the way to radicalization? is it a buffer? my theory is that it is both. we do have to look at even mainline islamism, what is its impact in terms of shaping the political narrative and whether it is a contributing factor despite nonviolence, to further radicalization. >> help me understand what they are finding and where a big run they get this -- in the koran they get this. >> if you are asking me if the koran is a source of violence

for groups like isis, of course it is. it has versus that can be construed -- verses that can be construed towards violence and those that can be construed towards peace. but we tend to emphasize the violence. everyone in history does that has a scripture. we bring values and norms to scriptures, we do not expect them from our scriptures -- extract them from our scriptures. it is an important point to make because if they are trying to say that islam is responsible for violence and islam's name he must be prepared to accept that islam is responsible for the good things carried out in islam's name. that is the difficulty of

talking about islam as a unitary idea that it promotes this or prohibits this, that is nonsense. islam is what a muslim says islam is. yes, it is true that isis is muslim and the "charlie hebdo" attackers were good muslims. what the people fighting isis are muslim the people they are attacking our muslim. -- are muslim. what does this say about islam? not much. >> this is not about islam. it is about what? >> it is about individuals, the way they navigate faith in a modern society and reconcile the modern world and whether they can reconcile those values and beliefs. because religious roots and also cultural and nationalistic roots and all of those need to be wrapped up in any conversation

we had about religion and violence. >> religion is a part of the story, so i think this debate is quite arid because of the bigotry on one side and the reluctance to broach the topics.\] it's a difficult topic because of the bigotry that exists. there are issues of radicalization and that is a part of contemporary islam. it is not the majority story it is a reality and we have to face up to that -- but it is a reality and we have to face up to that. we have to take religion seriously but i worry that if we focus too much on religion, we forget the political context. that to understand isis we cannot understand that without the political vacuum in syria. that did not happen by itself.

there are policy decisions by the international community that contributed to the rise of isis. the interesting question then is how does religion interact with these political factors? we have to bring those different variables into focus and i think we lose some of that, we lose the complexity if we are just saying islam is a problem. on the other hand, asreza pointed out -- reza pointed out, they believe they will be put into paradise and that is a thing we should not underestimate. ideology is a force multiplier on the battlefield. if we want to understand how senator isis fighters were able to overtake -- 900 isis fighters were able to overtake and iraqi force of 5000, the lesson is

that a small group of committed individuals willing to die for their cause can do amazing things, amazingly bad things with very small numbers. >> let me go to this point. in the column, they say "the u.s. needs to confront saudi arabia about their connection to wahabi. it is a short step to the violent extremism by the islamic state." >> for conservative islam and the islamic state, it is true that there is a strong connection between those ideologies and if i could go back to something reza was talking about, there are different strains but some of those are quite conservative and retrograde. and wahabism is one of those. it is no accident that in the

towns the islamic state in prose, they were distributing -- controls, they were distributing saudi textbooks. they are very hostile to the other and while we have to be careful not to draw a straight line to terrorism, certainly those teachings do not increase pluralism. >> are we going to witness this competition for headlines and competition for adherant? s? >> certainly there will be a competition, there has been for years. revealing is of the islamic state has stolen their thunder because they combine two very powerful ideas in islam. what is the return of the caliphate or the early islamic empire and the other is the apocalypse and they have updated them together to attract recruits -- knitted them

together to attract recruits. >> if we want to understand isis, they are revolutionary organization in that they are doing things that other extremist links have not really done -- groups have not really done. establishing a caliphate over a large piece of territory. al qaeda the caliphate as an inspiration -- would talk about the caliphate as an inspiration but they were not go there because the caliphate is a powerful symbol for even moderate muslims who look back on the golden age of islam when science and medicine and technology, muslims were doing amazing things. being able to appropriate the work caliphate has been marketing -- brilliant marketing on the part of isis and they have done it. where al qaeda is good at destroying things, isis has an

interest in governance. it provides law and order, runs administration. the alternative for the average civilian or iraqi is absolute chaos and they might say we do not like isis, we think their ideology, but at least they are providing some degree of stability and order. they might choose isis rule over chaos. >> let me raise this question among all of you. you believe as the world's attention -- bill you believe as the world's attention has been focused that this will be looked on and has the possibility of being a transformational moment? >> i doubt it. we hear these war on terror cliches, that did not work out the first time around. and of course when we look at the scope of the threat sometimes we collectively need a

degree of stoicism. this is not an existential threat, it is a serious problem that many countries of the west will have to rebel with for some time to come -- grapple with for some time to come. but the notion that our way of life is threatened is not true >>. . [applause] great thing -- true. >> i think the unity rally was a great thing but it was preaching to the choir. the jihadists must be bes ides themselves with glee. when you look at the statement claiming the attack, they said it was a transformational moment using almost identically the language you just use what it is transformational -- but it was transformational because it provoked this with a small attack. >> with those people who might be susceptible to listening or

joining some kind of radical extremist organization some of us will make it more of an inducement to join? >> the less you treat them as normal criminals, and the more you highlight the spectacular nature of their attacks, the more they are in the media, the more electrifying it is for the fringe and the more they want to get involved. it is not a lot of people but it will be enough to carry out these attacks. >> i worry that that is the high point of the unity and we will start making the same mistakes we always make after terrorist attack. the goal of groups like al qaeda is to promote western powers to things they otherwise would not do. they want us to overreact. if the far right leader in france gains were political support because of the attacks -- more political support because of the attacks, that

would be a godsend to al qaeda because they would sue to their potential supporters, look how about europe is. they will never accept muslims and they have a far right leader stigmatizing the community. i am worried that going in that direction. >> are looking at turning points, the turning point will not happen in paris. the turning point will happen in the heart of the arab world, in pakistan. it is going to have to be the rise of organic anti-militancy. and it embrace pluralism. and we are a long -- an eventual embrace of pluralism. and we are a long way off. it does not change in europe. >> how does it start? >> what is interesting is that the rise of viruses, i think, --

isis i think, and the spectacular violence, has had an impact in terms of producing an anti-militancy in the arab world. and i think the trouble is, it is a catch-22, it is tied to authoritarianism. we see this in egypt clearly area you have a strong anti-isis sentiment that has grown up without instigation from america . the problem is that it is tied up to dictatorial autocratic power. that is the sort of crap that the arab world faces -- trap that the world faces. until we see ways for them to tackle it without being repressive, that is the way in which this problem can be dealt with in the long-term. >> thank you so much, great to see you. reza had to leave early.

it was a pleasure to have all of you. the conversation continues and we will be back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

>> michael mann is here, he is the director whose movies include "the insider" and " heat." "blackhat" takes us into the world of cyber crime. president obama has said that cyber security risks are some of the economic challenges of the 21st century. here is the trailer for "blackhat."

>> some hacker is hitting the financial markets. >> four major banks. >> if we want close, we need men -- clues, we need men. >> he is a convicted hacker serving 15 years. m.i.t., genius coder. >> i want you to commute my sentence. >> those are the terms. >> is a political? -- he political? >> he is on the move again. >> this is only the beginning.

>> ♪ mama take this badge off of me ♪ >> the real hit is yet to come. >> ♪ knocking on heaven's door ♪ ♪ ♪ >> this isn't about money. this isn't about politics. i can target anyone. anything. anywhere. >> i am pleased to have michael mann back at this table. unpack this movie for me. take me from idea to script to

cast to research to film. >> it started in a room with myself, with thomas was legendary. -- who is legendary. we were looking for something cutting edge larger, as the world is right now. i was interested because of the narrative which was fascinating. the world's first stealth grown, it hits -- drone. >> the famous case in iraq were attacked the centrifuges. -- where it attacked the centrifuges. >> i came to understand it was about the malware. one component is to take out the

monitoring. the centrifuge fittings are fine while another part opens a backdoor while another part spins the centrifuge erratically. dig down what discovers you. -- take down what discovers you. it was like a chess game in reverse. and the coders have egos and shadows and references to themselves and a reminder. -- shout outs and references to themselves and reminders. it became dramatic as the veil lifted and i was not aware was not personally aware of the degree of interconnectedness. it is not an object or an application. we are fish, it is our medium. >> to dig a little deeper there

you went to washington and talk to cyber security experts in the government. >> i talked to cyber security experts, mike rogers. >> chairman of the house intelligence committee. not now. >> and black hat hackers, like kevin polson who is editor at "wired" magazine. >> he went to prison? >> he went to prison for five years and came out and wrote "kingpin." they come up with great names for themselves. about what motivates you, what is the high, what is the experience. >> to understand the personality and the character of the hacker. why do they do it, what is the charge for them? is it about money fame? >> 15-year-old kid adept at it,

he has a firewall that says you cannot come in here, you want to bet? >> did you figure out whether we can keep up with them or are they always going to be able to get in? >> they are always going to get in. if they cap today, somebody will discover a vulnerability on thursday. it is a constant evolution because it is ubiquitous. anybody with a fast enough laptop and skill set can go exploring and find a way in or groups of people can find a way in. the more sophisticated hacks like sony had to be done by state authors with teams of coders for a period of time. the game, who is this character, where is he from -- it's

becace -- it became who is this character, where is he from? in this brave new world we live in a detective is trying to find and stop the cyber criminal somewhere else in the world and our main character, hathaway, as a moral compass. -- has a moral compass. the person he is hunting, his conscience resides in virtual reality. what does that mean? >> did you have chris in mind? >> i always have the character in mind first. >> you knew what he looked like what his moral compass was, with his ambition was? -- what his ambition was? >> i knew he was from the southside of chicago and had a

steel worker father because i spent some time with in the 70's. a progressive reform movement in steelworkers. he had that direct, centered intelligence that i am used to. and the single father idea came from what happens to a son when he is brought up by a responsible and hard-working father, there are dynamics leader in life if they have a great relationship which they did. with scholarship and smarts, he is in m.i.t. >> did you create the story with the writer or did anyone help you? >> i created the back story for at the way. -- hathaway. >> why chris? >> ron howard showed me 45 minutes of "rush," and i thought, this guy is so good. he has lost himself in the moment, he is that guy.

and that is what i look for. and then i went down to costa rica where he was with his family his mother and father and wife and brother. and we spent a couple of days. in the native, chris is a good guy, very centered. he helps to put a new roof on a garage. and i thought, he is this guy, natively. he was very excited about the process of immersing himself in the character and got to the point where you lose yourself in the moment and you do not know where you are, you lose orientation and are living the moment. that is the spontaneity i am looking for from an actor. >> and the beginning of the film, you see the velocity of how something is sent out, --

>> a packet. >> a packet. how fast it travels and the speed of light. how did you do that? >> i wanted to not see someone sitting and typing. i thought it was so dramatic when i came to understand what happens when the packet is simply processed by the chip in your cell phone. what a packet is, by the way, and a bit and a byte. i wanted to tell the story of the intrusion in the physical world, the location in which it occurs. which means you are getting into structures that are numbers of atoms wide. there is a magnification factor when we're looking at a single transistor. it is done with cgi but it is based on the architecture of

those places that the packet of ones and zeros moves through. that is the real architecture that is what it looks like. what's the challenges also -- >> the challenges also to tell a story. you have the technology that makes it consequential because if you take down an electrical grid, all of the things you can do, it gives you a huge weapon. as you know, leon panetta, at his hearing, said the next pearl harbor will be cyber warfare. that is where it is coming. >> that is right. that became the territory. and i wanted not just the characters to come out of it and the mentality of the adversary to come out of it, but also the way the detective's story to stop a cyber criminal

somewhere in the world who nobody knows where he is. >> you do not even though were the point of origination is -- know where the point of origination is. you bounce across proxy servers -- >> you bounce across proxy servers, one of which will be mumbai. to get somebody to put a usb drive into their laptop, using destinations. >> to look at the scene, among the terrific actors are viola davis. >> how does it work? >> y give nsa the data -- you give nsa the data and then run it? >> you are not thinking. >> they have the keys to the kingdom.

whatever he is cooking up his right in their but we cannot read it -- is right in there but we cannot read it. >> my whole correspondence is here but there is no way the login is active. >> i am not going to use that login. >> is the nsa discovers the intrusion, are you sure you want to do this? >> fbi cannot explain after the fact? >> you get discovered, you are dead meat. you know that, don't you? >> you are watching the clip intently at my table. you are thinking, what? you have seen this a thousand times. >> at least. >> are you watching it with fresh eyes in anyway? >> when the acting is right, you

can get it again and again and again. the biggest problem with viola davis is the editors want to cut to her all the time. she is so great. >> what does this mean good? >> she starts where she is so self-critical. we would do a take. >> and she is happy and you are not. >> what it is really out of the park, we both know it. she is just, she is angry at herself but is really intense. the moment with she and chris, what is happening is that chris is, at this point chris and her become lovers. >> it happens frequently area is it happens pretty quickly -- it happens pretty quickly. >> it happens pretty quickly.

they knew each other through the kid. if you asked the nsa to get the answer with -- if he asked the nsa to get the answer and is discovered, he is dead meat. and he does go ahead and do it. but they needed to restore some code. >> who has influenced you the most? >> kubrick. i love wong kar wei. >> my impression of you is that what you like the most perhaps is the construction of the whole thing. just figuring out what is the story you want to tell more so than living in the editing room in a sense. >> it is all of it. it is very astute because in

today's language, people would talk about interweaving of texts. i thought about using everything, and all of it. -- talk about using everything, music and all of it. designing the flow of the basic thing, it has to be a story. the people and the music and the color, how should the story tell itself in color and location, do i want to make you feel anxious and i have a low ceiling how do i find places that have corners? classic scene analysis. >> take a look at this, this is where hattaway chris, confronts the mercenary assassin.

♪ >> ends up. -- hands uopp. slowdown. >> no one has gotten is closed before. -- this close before. >> tell me about it. >> this is all back story, he is

the product of the interminable civil wars in lebanon. i hypothesized that he had to leave when they moved in and took it over. his close quarter combat skills was a commodity that he was able to take on the international market and that is where he got picked up by the guy he works for. he is a little audit, he is emotionally --- odd, he is emotionally compelled. hathaway would improvise weapons because he is not a martial artist, he is a guy that is in mit's student but going through the prison student -- a mit's student but going through the prison, he picked up.

he would improvise weapons. he is talking -- stalking casar, to get the drop on him. he has said it is about getting close enough fast enough. even though he has gotten the drop, hathaway has gotten close. >> we have never been this close. >> it is an ironical line. no one has ever gotten this close before. by the end, hathaway, using cyber intrusions, as frozen all of their adversaries money -- adversary's money. and they sent him a sentence saying that i do not know me but i know you and you are having a bad day. there is an interesting origin. there was a bookkeeper in panama that was money-laundering.

some people i knew in the dea who are brilliant at manipulative finances discovered who this guy was the accountant in panama the money longer in panama. and they froze -- money laubndnderer in panama. and they froze pablo escobar's accounts. the bookkeeper knew he was dead. and that he got a message from the dea saying that you do not know us but we know you and you are having a bad day. and they flipped. they flipped him and made him an informant and read them for 18 months and that has so -- ran kim for 18 months and that is how they got the lowest of our. >> "charlie rose -- "blackhat

."thank you for joining us . see you next time. ♪

>> with chris christie and "with all due respect," leave us kids alone. >> happy national fig newton day, sports fans! the oscar critics protest, and the obama-cameron bro fest, but first, the supreme court is all in on gay marriage. today the supreme court accepted four cases on gay marriage, and whether they can refuse to