guy: the euro weekends, hitting a 12 year low -- weakens hitting a 12 year low. francine: the greek government is ready to review its accounts. the former italian prime minister mario monti will give us his take. guy: inside british business. with less than a week until the budget and two months until the election what politicians need to do to get votes. ♪

good morning. welcome. you are watching "the pulse." we are here in london. francine: the ecb president mario draghi is speaking this morning at an event in frankfurt. he said he sees upward gdp revisions due to oil and the qe program. we have been talking about parity between the euro and the u.s. dollar. guy: people are talking about it going further than that. let's check in to show you what has been happening. it has been an interesting couple of days. the dollar story is beginning to have a story in this space. the ftse is being eclipsed by other markets. it does seem as if we are starting to see money flowing toward european equities. you look at what mr. draghi has

been saying. a bit of qe, a lower exchange rate oil -- all of those things should manifest themselves in stronger economic growth. yesterday, not so good. this morning, the losses have been recovered. francine: definitely. we saw two days of losses and now have gained 0.1%. we want to show you the french 10 year yield. for the first time, it is below 0.5. guy: weird markets is the only way of describing it. francine: weird is a technical term. guy: in my view. francine: but that is exactly what it is. guy: let's talk about u.s. credit in a moment. currency, 1.06. we are down by 0.4% on the session. francine: it has weakened

since the beginning of the year. our twitter question -- when will euro-dollar hit parity? you can tweet us. guy: it could be by the end of the show. you never know. francine: it could be. if you buy enough fx now. euro officials are landing to look at the greek books today. if greece opens the books. guy: it was unclear late last night whether any appointments had been confirmed. as greece runs out of time and money and allies is it really in a position to push back? let's find out where we stand with our international correspondent hans nichols. hans: we have two separate meetings. we have meetings in brussels that take place today. those are going to take place as scheduled. that is to negotiate about how you have a bailout program and reforms in greece that allow

them to get some of the money out of the bailout program. then there are separate talks scheduled on thursday, technical a talks, mid-level officials need to figure on what the books are saying. how much revenue is coming into the greek state and how much is going out. it is on the athens talks that we don't have any firm confirmation of any meetings actually scheduled. yesterday, they said that discussions can only be started when people are welcomed in athens. there is a question on how long the greek government can continue to fund itself. 1, 2, 3 weeks? no one will know until they see the books. that is where the talks in athens are crucial tomorrow so

everyone can be on the same page and have the same numbers and then they can start negotiating for greece to get the remaining 7.2 billion in bailout. greece's calls for world war ii reparations are not going down all that well. a local pull said that 86% -- poll said that 86% of germans are not ok with paying greece any sort of world war ii reparations. francine: what can athens due to meet their obligations without new money? hans: they can draw from their social security trust fund. that is one of the options under consideration. they could draw from the trust fund into the common account. the problem is that the trust fund needs to sign off and say this is ok and you are really just sloshing money around. you don't deal with the underlying problem. what are they going to do with

bigger payments? april is not a tough month. may, june, july, they are going to have big payments that they are going to need to make and they will likely need the eu imf, ecb money if they are going to hope to stay current in their program. guy: hans nichols in berlin. thank you very much indeed. francine: we will continue to talk about the developments in greece. we will be talking to the former italian prime minister mario monti coming up on "the pulse." guy: as the greek drama plays out, we're not sure if it is zero pities or aristophanes -- euripides or aristophanes at this point, euro-dollar continues to play out. what will it mean for asset allocation in europe? we have plenty of time to get into the issues. will we get parity? >> there is that expression,

don't fight the fed. that is the guidepost i would use for this. for the next year, dollar could appreciate 5% to 10%. when you think about the divergence of monetary policy this is as clear a set of guideposts as we've got for how to navigate this year. francine: for such a long time everybody was saying that the dollar should be so much higher than it was. lester, we saw dollar weakness and that was completely crazy. >> it is easy in retrospect to think that. at some level, we were all while -- we were altering to figure out how janet yellen would approach a role and understand economic landscape. you have falling oil price, falling currency, and qe supporting europe right now. guy: you get a massive pop of

the confluence of those factors. how long does it take for that to manifest itself. alexander: good question. 50% of europe's economic liquidity is export driven. against that, you have sentiment issues which are still evolving in europe. the politics piece is probably not priced in. that is the big caveat i would put to the european story. you're a valuation is 40%. why shouldn't we be in europe? greece is not over. spain and portugal. u.k. elections. francine: what would you be buying? alexander: i would be buying european risk assets cyclicals. i would not be investing in european sovereign debt right now because it would rather not give away the money. [laughter] francine: that is a fair point. guy: how does that evolve?

all of the guys i know would love to be short the euro. they don't know what to do with it. people keep gearing up. there are crazy things happening in the market. what do you do with the european governing market? do you stay away from it? alexander: smarter people than i are figuring it out, happily. to your point, i'm not sure people really know because the historical context is so out of whack. we are in a very artificial situation. you kind of have to look at, beyond the government side, nestlé bonds are trading at a negative yield right now.

unconstrained bond funds are probably only place you can go. guy: how does that end? how does the relationship work? does it get more stretch? when does it ping back? alexander: it is unclear. to be really frank. the monetary policy path in europe is very and clear. there is a huge divergence in fundamentals and that should produce something we should be confident in -- volatility. volatility is good for investors. pricing deficiencies produce office. that is the only thing -- produce alphas. that is the only thing i can tell you with any certainty. francine: there seems to be a false sense of security especially with techno you wish are we on a massive bubble? -- tech valuations.

are we on a massive bubble? alexander: the yield and the dividend are pretty attractive together compared to alternatives. earnings generally have been rising. that is supporting some of the shift in assets. it is different than it was in the pre-2000 tech bubble. earnings are way up. then there is the capex cycle. the inventory machinery and companies is that a 50 year aging cycle. there is a fair amount of replenishment coming through. that is what the fed has been missing. they have been missing the capex pickup in the labor wage pick up. i would not say it is a bubble. francine: when are you expecting the fed to raise rates? does it make a difference? alexander: i don't think so. by the fall, you will see a move -- that is the expectation. will oil chase that?

i don't know. guy: people have been saying, don't worry about oil, this is a base effect story. what does the rate hike look like? and how does the trajectory look? alexander: i have no idea. i guess i have two assumptions. one that janet yellen and mark carney will be airing on the cautious side because the overall dynamic is uncertain and the divergence of monetary policy is something no one has lived through in a while. how that affects sentiment is unclear. guy: do you think we and up actually -- end up actually in a proper timing phase? do we get near to the point where we are going to be in that type of environment?

alexander: i think it will take a while. and we have not talked about china. francine: we will get to china. [laughter] there you go. you heard it from alex. guy: there is what else is on our radar. the 31 biggest u.s. banks have gotten their annual report cards from the federal reserve. the fed will release the results from the second phase of stress tests. the first part of the tests last week showed that they do have enough capital to absorb losses. francine: brady dougan pasta parter from credit suisse may be good news -- brady dougan's departure from credit suisse maybe good news. you can read more from that story at bloomberg.com. guy: a loophole in ireland's drug laws means a number of

drugs are legal today. there is a motion and legislation to close the loophole, but it will not pass until tonight. until then, the processing of a range of substances, including ecstasy and some new psychoactive substances known as had soft drugs are going to be legal for a very limited. of time -- a very limited period of time. francine: what a loophole. why didn't anyone think of this? we don't suggest you go try it out. don't try anything we wouldn't. [laughter] you don't know how the police would react. guy: how big is that list? francine: i'm just saying. we can tweet about it. we will speak to mario monti in the next hour. guy: "blurred lines." $7 million to marvin gay's family for copyright infringements. we will have more on that

program with caroline hyde. ♪

francine: welcome back. credit suisse continues to trade higher this morning. a new ceo was announced yesterday. guy: at the press conference in zürich manus cranny was in the front row and had the opportunity to sit down with the

outgoing ceo, brady dougan one-on-one. give us your sense of the occasion. hans:manus: very well orchestrated. this was in conjunction with the chairman. it started last autumn. in many ways brady dougan is handing the new ceo low hanging fruit. i suppose the rap sheet and the guilty verdict from last year, but this is a man that started the work. hit london, new york, tokyo, equities bonds -- they were all part of his career. did he have any fun along the way?

brady dougan: certainly, as you get into larger and marge are -- larger management positions, it becomes less fun. running smaller businesses and having a close relationship with everybody who works in the business and growing and building businesses that is always in my career where i had the most fun, building businesses. creating new businesses. there are number of businesses that we pretty much created from whole cloth, businesses that did not exist that we started. that is fun. it has all been satisfying in different ways. even this job, with all of the challenges of the past eight years, a very difficult period to be a ceo of a global bank. there was a lot of interest. a lot of fast action. manus: got a real sense when he left that podium and came into the room to do the interview, there was a real sense of relief.

he still has a number of intensive months to deliver and work with tidjane thiam to hand over. there was a sense of relief, i thought. guy: what did you make of the incoming ceo? compare and contrast for me. manus: i would say emmy award-winning, oscar in the waiting. he played to the gods, he played to the gallery. this was a ceo who kicked off in german, followed up in french, and he answered in english. whether it was contrived whether they wrote the german out for him, i don't know, but this was a man, a ceo, who i thought, i'm going to play you a little bit of a piece now. tidjane thiam: i have reorganized many investment banks in my career. [indiscernible]

manus: fascinating his take on the world ahead of him, is that he can apply the mckenzie rules to investment bank downsizing to a market in 2015. if i was sitting there i would be thinking, this is a very interesting take on the organizing an investment bank. back to you in london. francine: thank you so much. we were lucky enough to speak to him in london. it was unusual to have him come in and he was fairly tightlipped about it. guy: he is not afraid. he will get out there. he is a very bold character. francine: bold. guy: he did not answer any of the questions, but -- [laughter] francine: thank you so much,

alex friedman. when you look at the world around you, bonds, equities what is fundamentally going to change the next two years? we mentioned china. a lot of ceos may be people that come from outside the business. what is fundamentally going to change the way that we do business in the next 2-3 years? alexander: if i knew that, it would be the silver bullet. francine: multibillionaire. [laughter] alexander: one question is what do we know. the known knowns, how is the u.s. going to do, china, europe. china is slowing. they have policy levers. in the unknown unknowns there is always the technology question. what is a change we don't foresee? in the near term, it is more of a political risk question. derailing would be something

happening in russia or some sort of a political evolution in the next 12 months in europe. guy: you mentioned before the break that that is not priced in in europe. how does that manifest itself? do we start to see a divergence in the performance of the various curves? how does it actually work? if you were going to try to figure out how to make an objective decision based on a political story which is incredibly subjective, when you sit there with your asset team and figure that one out? alexander: happily, i don't have to do that. we have investors who do it through their own strategies. i don't see it so much on the fixed income side. you see it on the equity side. you will see volatility, as opposed to the rising tide environment, which we have had in the last few years, true mostly by the fed -- i know by

the ecb. i think you will see a lot more volatility by country and by sector. that seems to be the most obvious way it will manifest. guy: if i was looking at the way it is going to manifest itself you look at the traditional video and take a look at the distribution curve. how far forward? alexander: a truly depends on how some of these elections go. let's rewind the clock two weeks. greece did not move the market in terms of any downside. i don't think anything was actually resolved. the natural expectation of the market is that there will be no major fracturing of the eurozone. i think we will see in spain or portugal, a repeat of the greece leftist parties winning -- that would be a big surprise to the markets. .3 is that there will not be some kind of military escalation -- point three is that there

will not be some kind of military escalation. francine: how different has it been? as a ceo, what are your main pitfalls? give us a little bit of an insight. alexander: thanks for asking. it has been wonderful. it is nice to go to an organization that is an investment firm. i am an investor. gam is super well-positioned. absolute return strategies are were most investors want to be in this part of the market. people go to passives and they go to very active, high position strategies. that has been great for us. francine: your main challenge? is it retaining talent?

do you have to pay people enough? motivate people? alexander: there are two elements to that. i have to make sure that we create an environment that the very best investors want to work at. think about it like a university. why would a talented university professor want to go to a university? that is not to be underestimated. one can screw that up easily. the second is, frankly navigating where we think the puck is going to go in three to five years. if you go to the demographic growth of the world, it is in asia and africa. that emerging wealth buys the european version of useful funds. we are very focused on making sure we meet the trajectory was a demand is. francine: thank you so much. gam holdings ceo, alex friedman. guy: stay with us.

we are talking to the vice president of the european parliament. that is coming up shortly. that interview is right here on "the pulse." plus, the former italian prime minister mario monti. ♪ .

francine: welcome back to "the pulse." guy: i am guy johnson. these are the top headlines. francine: mario draghi speaking this morning at an event in frankfurt, saying he's these upper gdp due to oil, exchange rate, and the qe program. he added governments must implement reform measures assesses central-bank can and will stabilize inflation. guy: talks at greece to take place in two cities. we think that will begin in

athens probably more likely going to happen tomorrow. you officials -- eu officials. today, officials from the ecb, you're being commission, imf are to begin discussions on greece in brussels. francine: hillary clinton breaks her silence about controversy surrounding her e-mails. she told reporters at the united nations it was a mistake not to use government e-mails while secretary of state but says the use of a private e-mail account and server was legal. >> the laws and regulations in effect when i was secretary of state allowed me to use my e-mail for work. that is undisputed. guy: breaking news -- francine: manufacturing output for the month of january in u.k., falling to 0.5% instead of 0.2 increase. this ties to the fact that rate rises, the economy doing pretty well, maybe this is something --

i'm sure this is something mark carney will be looking at. guy: an important part of the industrial production number. both data series are light after the industrial manufacturing. francine: as greece creditors attempt to take a look at the athens governments books, patience is running thin on the process. how real of a possibility is it? let's get the view from strasburg. guy: our guest joins us for an exclusive interview. good morning, sir. thank you for taking the time to be with us. there seems to be an increasing sense in european capital that greece can be let go without any meaningful economic impact. is that your view? >> actually, that is a view that is gaining currency, at least in berlin and other capitals. if we look at the economic

dimensions, it is clear the greek economy is so small that in exit now five years after the start of the crisis would no longer cause what we feared 2010, which was the domino effect. that is no longer there, so it means an exit is possibility, indeed. francine: is it desirable? >> excuse me? guy: is it desirable? >> absolutely not. what we would expect greece to do and expect the new government a prime minister tsipras and mr. varoufakis to do, is to fulfill the commitments that previous greek governments have undertaken like their creditors. i think it is unfair for the greeks to expect special create it -- treatment given that others have got to really bottle structural changes, have slashed their budgets, lowered the salaries for the public service, have taken a lot of painful

steps. for greece to ask for special treatment does not go down well in these countries at all. francine: i understand. we had a guest on yesterday talking about this. when you look at the european project in the fact you seem to be suggesting we could live without greece, what does it mean for spain? this goes to the heart of the european project, which is 19 member states would together by the euro. >> as a matter of fact, the european project is based on the political world to keep them together. that role is expressed in certain roles that we designed together and are supposed to follow together. playing the game according to the rules, then if that member chooses to leave, that does not endanger the european project. at that is something that that country as a sovereign choice and its rights to do so, chooses to do you therefore, i don't think this is endangering of

european project at all. guy: can i ask you a question which is being raised in u.k. today? the opposition labor party is making the point of the u.k. were to leave the eu, that would be very good news for vladimir putin. can i make the same argument for greece? >> as a matter of fact, greece would leave the euro zone, but not european union. we must be clear about that. we would, as germans, as europeans, continue to support greece and a transition, to say a new currency. for the u.k., it is a different ballgame altogether. the united kingdom is an abstraction test country. it tries to block progress in european and has done it for many years. there are many brussels who would like to see the u.k. go. as a german liberal, i would not like to see the u.k. go because i think it is an ally and when it comes to free-trade in the

market economy, but i think the countries should put its money where its mouth is and that means to be clear and constructive inside the european institutions and work for a better european union rather than a worse one. guy: do you feel there is a trend toward fronts mentation -- fragmentation? there are allies in berlin. i'm sure you know them well. we had folks yesterday saying berlin is very keen for the u.k. to stay in. i think there seems to be a sense in berlin that they fear actually to end up with an unbalanced eu maybe with the southern european countries having much more sway. >> that is correct for now. we are waiting for poland to catch up. as a matter of fact, the german view on the economy is one that is a more liberal or more market-oriented approach to the british view rather than the french one. with poland, live a strong member to our east that has grown throughout the crisis who

is catching up with the rest of europe and quite a remarkable way clearly, poland is not there to be a balancing factor but once poland is strong enough, i think that argument becomes a weaker one as far as the uk's concern. francine: if we go back to greece for a second, they state in the eu, that is something at this point we do not know. is there not a danger they would ask for help for russia? if they get shunned by the eu in general, because this is the general feeling in greece that they are in their right to renegotiate, why would they not look for help from russia and what does it mean for europe? >> well, i mean, i believe greece will continue to lead access to the largest market in the world which is the european single market. it will want to stay in the zone because of the tourism industry. it will want to continue to work inside the european union where

he can influence decisions. so i would be surprised if a real departure from the european union were to take place altogether. i do not see that. will the russians be asked to support something here or there? possibly, there are deterred to chinese for privatization projects, but i honestly do not believe greece, even though they may leave the eurozone, would ever want to live the european union. guy: is there a sense within the european parliament that the european project is going well? that ever closer integration is still possible? >> of course, there is apprehension. we are not blind to the fact popular support has gone down, that we need a new narrative to make clear why the european union is needed. i think free trade is one of these areas in which we can make a very clear case for the european project. we see more convergence inside the eurozone among germany and

france these days fortunately, with the decisions from the european commission and the finance ministers concerning the french time extension to get the deficit together, but by and large, i would say there is a sense of crisis and the new commission president has said clearly we need to take this legislature of the european parliament and european commission to make a stronger case for ever closer union in the european union. francine: do we need an eu army like it was adjusted? >> i believe that is necessary. there's found a single armed force in the european union among the european member states that really can do what it would be asked to do in the case of a major crisis, including the united kingdom, the bilateral treaty with france already to improve military cooperation. this is not something that is going to be realized fast or quick with the potential for savings and better equipment

from soldiers, better training for our soldiers, i think is absolutely evident. i think it is a strong point that he made. francine: this would be part of nato, within the structures or outside? >> clearly, i would like to see it inside major structures. we have some member states that are neutral. that is one of the stumbling blocks. we as germans would also have to discuss what it means to have two countries with nuclear arms in our ranks. as i said, this is not an easy way and does not mean we will move to full integration within two or three years rather, this will be step by step. let's not forget one thing for a slap -- let's not forget one thing. we simply do not get the same bang for the buck as they say because of the inefficiencies duplications, and bad equipment and training our soldiers unfortunately receive. francine: thank you so much,

alexander graf lambsdorff. guy: that brings us to today's twitter question. we have been watching the single currency slide. let us know your thoughts. we seem to be getting awfully close. francine: coming up, with the outgoing chief of credit suisse said about the banks knew boss. >> i think it is a good fit. yes the background strong background. it fits well with our business. ♪

francine: welcome back, as brady do then gets ready to depart chris swiss and make way for tidjane thiam we speak with the outgoing boss. guy: the industry as a whole now faces. >> it has been a long p[eriod for challenges, a lot of work we've had to do in terms of restructuring. i think we have been aggressive about that. i think that has been good. frankly, i hope for the sake of the organization that there is notably less to go. i wish that were the case, but it is dynamic. we think with the targets we have set for the end of this year, we think that puts us in a pretty good place as we discussed fourth-quarter earnings. we think that puts us in a pretty good place but it is a dynamic environment and we will

have to see. my fervent hope is in fact that is the case in a does get easier for the industry and for credit so he's. -- credit suisse. francine: he flew to zürich after the announcement was to become ceo, tightlipped and bold. guy: he was looking for to the challenge. i think it was dying to tell us about his plans. francine: for more on the changes at the top of switzerland's second-biggest bank, let's welcome the director of asset manager. great to have you on the program. if you look at, first of all are we going to have more point mints as bank ceos from people outside the banking industry or is tidjane thiam because of the way he is been doing a provincial and quite on top of asset management, is he considered a banker? >> there are several questions

in that question. i think the first point is that tidjane thiam was relatively free. he is done and excellent job at prudential. you look at the last five years, stock price performance tripled suddenly, you have an opportunity or at least a company that has a rumor around it that investors are generally asking for change. and you look at the five-year performance of credit suisse share price has gone down 50%. tidjane thiam is a clever operator, sees the opportunity, and we're looking forward to seeing what he is to do. guy: what can he do to replicate what he did previously? >> i think cs is in need to beef up its as a gathering business.

-- asset gathering business come the same way ups has embarked towards -- i think cs -- ubs is about 60% as it gathering. we are the low 40% for cs. where is -- where are the opportunities and wealth management? probably asia. tidjane thiam has a tremendous track record in asia. and not only in asia, but in asset management insurance. it can see some link as well. that is very much what investors are asking. and hoping for. francine: i remember we spoke to him about five or six years ago after he tried to buy a part of aig for provincial. you said you have to be bold because investors forget and forgive. if you do both at the beginning, do you think you're going to have a big announcement or will he take his time?

>> he's got the reputation for being disciplined asset locator. he has the track record. we know asia is growing of growth for asset managers. that is where his experiences are. guy: would it be better to appoint somebody from a more wealth management background? >> it is an interesting question. we saw the share price performance reaction to the appointment of someone who is seen as perhaps in between the two. not an investment banker, not a wealth manager, but i think the fact that he has a very good track record in execution and has an expertise in the areas where credit suisse is aspiring

to be more exposed, i think it fits relatively well press a compromise between investment banker and wealth manager. francine: we had alex friedman on earlier it seems the markets are little bit crazy. it is difficult to actually see what is going on. when qe is distorting everything, how do you wade through that and nowhere to put your money? >> there is been a five-year distortion to the benefit of fixing com markets at equity markets. we are now seeing some valuation and many asset classes. you don't get much in deposits. you aren't getting anything in some quality fixed income markets. so the usual move towards or high up on the risk is very much

equity markets. that is probably why we see a p.e. expansion. digestion has to happen. the u.s. is on the verge of changing -- embarking to a new rate cycle. it is probably too early to be adamant about it, but i think when you look at the energy complex and you look at the weaknesses of global growth, it seems markets are perhaps on the short-term ahead. guy: can i briefly, because i'm running out of time, take you back to asset management industry? is there a potential for tidjane thiam to do something radical in terms of shaking their business up? it is a very personal relationship. it is a relationship that seems to give a lot of value to the individual managers and their relationships. most managers try to shares

little as they can with a company because they want to make that value as portable as possible. he is come from business that isn't like that. could he come in and start a really radically shape up their markets? >> there are two things that are outside his control. regulation and litigation. i think the regulatory bits, we need to know more about the swiss leverage ratio and the too big to fail decision from the swiss regulator. once that is aside, he will most likely focus on getting a better understanding on the future of actual and future litigation issues and perhaps understand or have a strategy with this in mind on how much capital this will probably require. then when you know more about your regulatory background and you know more about your litigation issues, actual incoming, you are going to be

able to shape or get a strategy. i think what is going to include in that strategy is asia. it is going to be very much focusing on building up further the wealth management industry and shrink further the investment banking. so far, as much as we can, what investors want and that is probably why we are seeing so far quite a recovery and credit suisse share prices. francine: thank you, guy de blonay. guy: coming up, "blurred lines." give it up. they lost a copyright infringement case to marvin gaye's family. we will talk about it more when we come back. ♪

francine: welcome back. this is our twitter question of the day -- the euro has weakened 11.5%. guy: we could have a 105 handle

any moment. a lot of guys and girls riding in. -- writing in. it seems from the charts, we could get there very soon. there is a little bit of an air pocket that could generate a move right toward parity in the near future. francine: that has implications for holidays, for earnings. guy: what we're looking at is the pound versus the euro. we are north of 140, that changes the dynamic but little bit if you're heading off for summer holiday. francine: tweet us and we will be talking about the parity watch we're looking at that we're watching. coming up, another hour of "the pulse." we have a great exclusive coming up with mario monti, asking him about johnson. we will talk about the u.k. elections in the former italian

prime minister and commissioner for the eu will be talking to him about u.k. elections as well. ♪

tom: markets adjust with the dow off over 300 points. the week euro signals an export boom. here is a partial score at

32,000, e-mails deleted to those selected to go to the state department. secretary clinton explains. spring is here. olivia needs a new upscale umbrella. she calls upon a mechanical engineer to assist. good morning, this is "bloomberg surveillance." we are live from our world headquarters in new york. it is wednesday, march 11, i am tom keene with olivia sterns -- she is very dry this morning, no rain in new york. olivia: in hindsight, 2020 hillary clinton says it would have been wiser to use a government e-mail account while secretary of state. she called a press conference to try to quite the controversy over using her private account for official business. she said she did not want to carry a second mobile phone for another e-mail account. >> looking back, it would have been probably smarter to have used two devices,