♪ rex from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. charlie: robert deniro is here.

it was once said -- all pacino is here. here is a look at some of his work. >> you needed it. >> you are supposed to help and 11 me. >> i was going to go out. >> the reality is we do not -- i don't care if i'm in trouble. if i have to go to outside agents to get away. >> here yourself? >> where am i going to go. >> i know it was you. you broke my heart. you broke my heart. >> good over there will you. he wants to come me so bad, he can taste it.

add a cup. attica. >> ok, you want to play rough, ok. say hello to my little friend. >> you want to learn the first rule you would know if you ever spent a day in your life. there was a time i could see. and i have seen, boys like these come a younger than these, their arms torn out and their legs ripped off. but there is nothing like the site of an amputated spirit. there is no prosthetic for that. >> if it is between you and its hump or vassar whose wife you

will turn into a widow,, you are going down. >> the sky is the top scientist in the number three tobacco company. he never hear whistleblowers from these companies. he is an insider, he hasn't been to say. >> you may call a mercy killing i call it something else. i call it a medical service for an agonized suffering patient. that is what i call it. charlie: over the years, many contemporaries have spoken about him on other show. flex -- not >> his blind will go, he does not know how to not act. there is a line of truth in him that is where you can really see it to its magnificence, that is in the godfather.

>> he knows where the camera is every mark. he hits it and he never fails. he knows the cutting, the editing, and then within that strict and a structured form, it is very tight. he is utterly free. it is just so inspiring to be around. charlie: this january, he starred in, "the humbling." >> this is emily. >> look at this. let me take that. >> all my god. are you hurt ? are you ok? flex yes. >> these are just some of my things. >> you know, i was thinking,

don't you think it is time that you told your parents about us? charlie: in "danny collins" he plays a rock star who receives a letter from john lennon and decides to change his life. ♪ >> you can't choose it your fans danny. >> surprised. >> no way. you do not surprise a guy my age, you will give me a heart attack. >> you write like lenin man. >> you wrote a letter and john lennon read it. he wrote you a letter. can you believe it. >> dear danny collins, stay true to yourself. stay true to your music.

my phone number is below and we can discuss this. >> i am a joke. dear danny collins, stay true to yourself. i am broken. there is nothing left to break. what would have happened if i had gotten that letter that i was supposed to. >> welcome to the hilton. look at who it is. >> are you staying here. are you currently on drugs? >> you are not fan? >> no. >> what we have good pattern -- patter. >> how do i look? >> you look slightly rigorous. >> see u.s. of neglect. >> know you won't. >> why are you here? >> i am just making some changes to my life. >> my has been is going to work through that door and this is the last time i will ever see

you. >> i am not angry, this is the last time, have a good life. >> you shouldn't give up. >> i agree, dinner tomorrow? >> good night, danny. >> i haven't written in a long time. >> our universe? -- are you nervous? >> yet. >> i love that. >> i don't need you to say anything, i needed to leave. >> you have to deal with it, i am here. ♪ >> you can't buy redemption. >> we should have a dinner tomorrow. >> you never give up. >> some dinners are worth fighting for. charlie: that was a terrific cast. when you see that montage, what do you think about your career?

al: it baffles me. you spend your life moving on and it is one of the perks, but is also the issues that you have with them and in a company, we all sort of feel that way. us actors. charlie: someone said that all actors are gypsies. al: yes, they all have that in their spirit. when i look at things i have done before, there is a certain distance that you have. you look at it and you say, this is all part of, if you want to call it a development. i remember there was a special evening for kazan. he got up on the stage and he said wow, how am i still

walking around? they did one for me actually, and i went up there and i thought, there is no rehab in this. i never was in rehab. charlie: the question in danny collins, staying true to yourself. you have stayed true to yourself, haven't you? al: i think. i don't make those kinds of -- i don't think of myself as that at all. that i am being true to myself. i can feel when i am not. i can feel when i got off the track. more in the performance of personal life. personal life is a bit too random for me. i'm playing characters that have lived these lives all over the world and stuff. and gone to the accessibility of

things in life and the world. charlie: do you keep saying yes to parts? you have these movies coming out. and these questions, i want to walk the other way. pacino: it's true. i think i've gotten out of something. the people with campers and wires on the floor, i just looked at the other side. -- i just go to the other side because i feel as though, i know what they are going through. it is different when you direct because you are in every part of it. and it's also different for an actor as you prepare for a movie because there is the rehearsal period. we don't have enough of that today. but early on movies, we had

really substantial rehearsal periods. to develop characters and relationships with other actors. so, in this movie, we had no rehearsal. danny collins. charlie: because of the budget? pacino: yeah. that's what it is. it's the budget. it is what we always face. and we would rehearse on -- in my house on weekends, to get what we couldn't. charlie: why do you do it? because you love it? because it's who you are? why do you do it? you have made all the money in the world. you have a great family, all of the things anybody would aspire to. international fame. you say, i'm an actor. it's what i do.

pacino: it is funny. you have the text. i live by the text. and when i see that text, i don't want to act, i don't want to do it. charlie: you want to be in movies? pacino: i don't need it. i don't think i need it until i read it. and the process is ever-changing because there is a time or you want to do something because it challenges you and you feel you will learn something from it. so you do it. you can fall flat on your face. but mostly, you are trying to evaluate things and deal with things that come up. at the same time, that script -- i read one the other day that i won't say what it is but i read

it and think, "they pull me back in" kind of thing. charlie: is it the excitement of getting inside of the character? pacino: it's the world the writer creates. it's the text. i have an opportunity to do this again. or for the first time. and there is something about this thing that i do. it is almost an obligation to get involved in it. charlie: this is for you. does this "add value" to this? pacino: yes. or if i can do something that relates to something inside of me. that i've been wanting to express or talk about. when i first started, i think what kept me an actor is when i realized i could speak through

this venue. and i could speak about things in life that i couldn't before. i could not find the words. but the playwright allowed me to express something. charlie: the actor and the text. it gives you the possibility to make it something bigger? that is what an actor adds. pacino: and to move on from a life you know to a life you may not know and find out about it. and get a sense that you are involved in something that is bigger than your life. charlie: the humbling. the 2009 novel. you liked it. pacino: yes. charlie: what attracted you to it? did you see things as an actor there that you have thought about? losing your skills, in a sense?

how did you see it? pacino: i saw it as a potential movie. at a certain point in life, your age comes in and there are certain things that you cannot do anymore. charlie: it happens to everybody. i see people every day that our -- are athletes. pacino: the athletes is a more obvious one. charlie: the thing about acting is it's a bit like people say you should not read certain things until you're 30 because you may not understand it. pacino: you shouldn't do hamlet until your 40. except you have to do it earlier , because you won't do it if you wait until 40. you learn to much and you know it's impossible. the best thing is to get in there -- i love when the young

actors do it. i didn't do it. i never felt i was right for hamlet. i love the play. probably my favorite play. i never did it. i did scenes from it. but i never felt that i could exist in that play. i thought, other people could. there is a question of understanding it as an audience, and understanding it as an actor. charlie: was that kazan who had you do the reading for -- for shakespeare. charlie: it was hamlet and someone -- pacino: it was strasburg. i was afraid to do anything. i got to the actors studio. i would go home. throughout my life, i have committed to memory -- charlie: you were almost a teenager? pacino: early 20's. i have these great monologues in

me. and i had the wonderful eugene o'neill monologues. i was thinking, what a peasant slave am i. i had them committed to my mind. i went for the first time. i was sitting there six months and finally i got up the nerve to sign up. strasburg lifts the paper and he was able to pronounce my name. he said, al pacino? and i love that he could pronounce my name. and he said, al pacino? what's this? hamlet, and the ice man cometh. he said, ok. we take all kinds in here. [laughter] i got up there and i did a ferocious peasant. and i went wild eugene o'neil --

and i was really giving it the old gung ho. it wasn't that good. it was over and the audience got cheery about it. i think it because it had a lot of commitment and energy. he said, here's what i would like you to do. immediately, this was the genius with him. i want you to do hamlet as hickey from the iceman cometh and hickey as hamlet. i immediately went into it. i did not cause. -- i did not pause. charlie: the character of hamlet and the text of hickey. and hickey as the presence he had. pacino: i learned more that day than i had in my entire life. charlie: the first part of the

book is "he lost his magic." do you fear that? pacino: oh, my. as you get older, too, the stamina. to do especially what this character does, he does theater. he does 8 performances a week. i don't know if you ever saw, " the dresser." they don't even know what character they are playing. we do one a day. the exhaustion and the tools you have as an actor. it is your energy and your own appetite. i don't think you do kingly or -- king lear if you don't have an appetite. you can't walk through it. maybe if you do a movie of it.

charlie: not in one sustained performance. do you want to do lear? pacino: not particularly. charlie: not yet? pacino: there's another one that i've wanted to do as a movie. i can see myself possibly doing it one day as a movie because it is great, of course. but i haven't found my way to lear. i do not think that it is my role. charlie: but you love richard. pacino: richard i could possibly do again. i did a reading of it. actually, i was at the philadelphia philharmonic and i was hosting, believe it or not the 158 anniversary of the theater there. it was a wonderful orchestra. i was the mc of the thing. i don't know how that happened. charlie: not easy. pacino: i found myself doing it. talking about the first time i

heard serious music. classical music. remember the old lewis and stadium here? i heard rite of spring and i was there when stravinsky himself conducted it. i won't forget that. we were talking about times that we heard music for the first time. anyway, i did richard. several poems by e e cummings. this was a new experience. i loved it. actors do it. chris plummer does it from time to time. i did richard and my great friend charlie lawton who passed on a couple years ago -- he said that you should try richard again. i said, yes. i wondered why he said that.

then i went to philadelphia. two years later i'm up there doing richard and it was so different and so much a part of me in a way. charlie: richard hasn't changed. you changed. pacino: i used to do richard when i was in boston. young early 30's. this was me doing richard, i would be in the dressing room and i was in the rectory. in church was the only time that we got into it a little bit. it was in the midst of real turmoil in my life. i was drinking. i had just become a movie star. i was in this state constantly. before i would go on, and i would come out of the pulpit. we would just speak over a microphone. but i wouldn't go out. i would stay in the dressing

room. i had this girl. i won't mention her name. she was a spunky girl. a very young apprentice. i think she was at harvard. she was just my assistant. she was so smart and so much fun to be with. i wouldn't be there in the rectory and she would come in and say, "five minutes out." i would say, doesn't matter what it is. i would say, i'm not doing it tonight. i said, i am not doing it. she says, no, no, no. they're out. i said, you know i am not going to do it. you are not going to make me do it. she says, yes, i am. you are going on that stage.

we would have this huge fight and i would hear "places." that was preparation. i was ready to go. i don't know what kind of operation that is. but the point is, you get it when you can. it comes to you in the moment. charlie: and you have to find it. pacino: i would call the richard idea at the church of the covenant, inspired richard. after that, the richard i did was a lot of it by the numbers. a lot of it trying to remember what i have done before. it didn't have the same flavor to it. it wasn't coming in the same place of expression. charlie: inhabiting a character, do you have to find a hook for you? something about the character. someone once said that when i put on the suit, the character, something like that -- pacino: it does help.

charlie: but unlocking the character because you will inhabit the character, what do you look for? anything other than what the text says to you? pacino: yeah. you have to look for that thing that moves you. i don't know what it is. i like repetition. repetition keeps me green. i love that saying. fresh. because the idea that we do performances over and over again, doesn't that get boring? no. it's in the repetition that the creation comes. that the expression comes. i was doing richard wants. -- richard once and not particularly well. and we cannot get this court scene with a lot of people in it and i couldn't understand what i

was doing. we would call rehearsal through it. we would think about it, all this kind of work with able -- people together trying to figure out something. the 85th performance of richard, on my 85th entrance, i understood it. i knew the court scene. i was there. charlie: but not 84. pacino: i just gave up the ghost, i guess. i said, oh screw it, it is not going to happen. but i kept going on and i found it. remember the great actor sam levine? i was watching the royal family once in the theater and sam levine comes in. opens the doors and comes in. i was a young actor. i thought, wow. as soon as i saw him, wow. it wasn't an entrance.

it was something else. it was a gift. he was opening the doors to something spectacular. with light in it, energy, joy. and you know what it was? he had done it for 50 years. that's a big thing. charlie: did you use that in terms of your performance? pacino: i've done performances where they got worse until they got better. charlie: because you are searching. pacino: there is a thing that i did in american buffalo, once. i did it all over the world. i remember people talking about, wow, he's like a tiger. he's got a back and forth like a leopard in a cage. i thought, that was a very nice and that is probably what i was doing for a while. after doing it for four years, i found myself in boston.

it was at the wilbur. i came out and i said the opening soliloquy written by david mamet. i am doing this scene and i'm on stage for about 10 minutes. and i realized i had not moved. i had not moved from the spot. so what happens, the economy came. that thing came. it wasn't there for years, then it just came. charlie: the act of art in sculpture is getting it down to a size. it is taking a role or obtaining. it is in a sense defining it down to where it works for you. stripping away. so that what you see is the

essence of a character of the scene. pacino: sports, too. you say, he didn't do anything. of course, that's what you go for. charlie: you mentioned david mamet. what is it about the two of you? pacino: yes, i will be with him and a new play that is coming out in the fall. charlie: do the words speak to you? does he have a sense of character? pacino: i think he and i just hear it. collaborating and he is doing all the work. i am there. it is a good to have someone to bounce off of. i am home thinking about something. i see him a few days later, a week later.

and he has written down what i have said. just go with that. charlie: the power of observation. pacino: to call him a great writer is a redundancy. but the same time, he surprises me. charlie: you have done that more than once. the merchant of venice. pacino: i was in the movie and then i did the play. charlie: i know. pacino: sullivan wanted me to play it. and i thought, yes. this is the time to play because i learned about it in the movie a certain way. with theater, you can just explore more. with movies, it's hard to explain. i knew it would be different.

i was very grateful for the part. charlie: do you want to be in macbeth? pacino: i've heard that lately. charlie: it is the myth of the theater that you cannot mention the name. pacino: i don't know. it's just great. i love the play. i think it is another one that has been shelved for me. charlie: what else is on that list? pacino: maybe doing richard again. that's a part i wanted to play and i was ready to play it. charlie: do you still want to? pacino: i want to play it. but the cart is before the horse.

sometimes you just get it and you go. in my off time for years, i practically no the longest -- know the longest written part in shakespeare. i know hamlet and i know these parts. i know the words. charlie: because you have practiced? pacino: i practice. but everything changes when you get in the real -- it's like shadowboxing until you get in the ring. it's a different story. i love the idea of driving a car. it is like you are driving a car and everything is good. and it you get in the car, you don't have the key, you haven't started it. but you are doing every thing right. you shift, you do this. then you turn the key and the car goes. and all the sun, you think, what is this? that is the difference of

rehearsing alone and getting in there with other people. this is fun. i love the place. charlie: you dropped out of high school to go act. pacino: actually, i went to work. we needed money and my family. an economic necessity at the time. i did go to the village at age 17. and i did -- i was really fed by all the actors in the 60's, i was going to coffeehouses in the village and doing 16 shows a week or whatever play, passing the straw basket around. the audience would drop something. charlie: charles --, what is the nature of the friendship? pacino: you could call it symbiotic.

you could call it mentor, i was 17 and he was teaching over there. hp studios. he was a student of strasburg, great people. i was there as a kid. a teenager, really. i took one look at this guy and i knew that i came from that. there was a familiarity. charlie: i'm going to talk about some of the things you have done. i know you have talked about this before. when you did dog day afternoon did you know that you and sydney had created something? pacino: it's interesting. i remember doing it. we rehearsed for a long time. and remember, as charlie once said, with this picture, you pull the pin and let it go.

as sydney said to me, it has its own life now. as we were shooting it, he said it has a life of its own. i couldn't tell. marty bergman, very wisely, and i was drinking in those days as well but we were at an apartment under the bank. both me and judith would be hitting on weed. she played my mother. they were all upstairs. i was downstairs alone. and we had rehearsal for a month. sydney was all about, pretty much about performance and stuff. when i would go up there, it absorbed me. again, i was in it.

when i would have a reshoot, i would come back to the bank and sydney wanted me to reshoot. he saw after the last shot, that fellow that i was channeling whatever that character was it had evaporated. it was gone. and when i had to come back, i had to re-create something. we had to reshoot something. i could not get it. charlie: how long does an actor take a part with him? a week? a month? and when you have to reshoot, can you recapture it? pacino: i have been doing it so long now. i let it go. i used to go back when i was younger. i would come back. in the dressing room, i would

leave. i would say, i am going now i have to move on. i do it right. it's a line from the play. that was kind of the thing. i had to literally do that. it kind of stuck with me for a while. that godfather part. that place i had to go to. on a really the first two movies. charlie: you did not see him as a gangster? pacino: no. charlie: you saw him as -- pacino: someone that inherited this thing. and it was there. charlie: did not expect to be there at that early time in his life but understood it was his responsibility to family. pacino: it was his destiny.

i always felt bad about him. he had certain ingredients that would allow him to do what he did. his father saw that and him -- in him early on. it's a long story with that one. i never wanted to play that part. it was francis that got me to do it. he wanted me to play that part. completely fought for me. to such a degree. i kept saying, francis, it's alright. i will do other things. i was afraid of the role, by the way. charlie: some actors say that's good. it is when they are afraid of the role that is the best thing they can have. if they are not afraid of it they don't really want to do the part. it scares them to be motivated to do it. pacino: that is certainly a healthy move.

when anyone sees you in a role there is a period where you become well-known, what is known as "bankable." you find it is dubious, because you don't know if somebody wants you because they see you in the part or because you can bank the movie. you can get confused by that. sometimes you do roles -- the best time is when a director wants you. charlie: how well did you know marlon brando? pacino: well enough to love him. i did not know him as well as other people had. i found him to be that kind of sensitivity where he can sort of feel you. he feels your stuff. and he gets very concerned. he was concerned about me. at the time, there was so much controversy. and that i was going to -- charlie: after godfather? pacino: before. it was when we were shooting it.

he came over and put his hand on my shoulders. he knew i was going to go. i was a man who did not have long left for the set. francis wanted me. the studio didn't. they didn't want brando either. but with me, it didn't matter. they were shocked that francis wanted me. charlie: didn't francis bring in panic? pacino: panic is a beautiful movie. charlie: he was the photographer. pacino: just a beautiful directorial -- charlie: francis brought them in. pacino: he brought eight minutes from panic, and brought me in. the part of michael corleone is sort of built.

it starts as a shadow and turns into this presence. it's my way of getting to that so that by the time you see him in the end, he is kind of an enigma. that is the power of him. we don't know where he came from. he has that feeling to it. charlie: does that make ii better than i? pacino: i like them both. i think -- one has its story. it is the original. ii has francis's story. he talks about himself and a lot of his personal feelings he gets out about himself. that is what gives it that power. charlie: brando would get interested in this show.

and he would watch it all the time and he would send me notes. what was his gift? pacino: it is hard to define it. the genius of character. that's all i can say. he did cross that line where he had great duty. you have the great movie star, including cary grant. and gary krug -- gary cooper. but brando was a character actor. that means that he played roles that were different from each other. he played them very distinctly different from each other.

charlie: how did you manage to be a star and not play character roles as much as you play stars? you are at the center of these roles. is it box office? you tell me. pacino: i think it's always been -- some movies i have made, they are different characters i play. i don't know. it's a mystery to me. it has always been a mystery that i am here, that i am still doing this thing. i started early. i was seeing in new york -- seen in new york which i got an award for, any play. faye dunaway saw me in this play

and told the great producer marty bergman. that play, there was something in that play. it is a beautiful play. john casale was in it too. and i had been acting may be 10 years before that. i was quite young, my mid-20's. it just started to sale along. i did feel oddly enough, as an explorer in my work experimenting. and trying to learn more about the classics and myself in connection to doing things. i got a lot of joy out of that. i was in soho, which nobody could even find in those days. but i was in the village and to finally be lauded in a way,

everything upped the stakes. and somehow, i was trying to preserve something that i thought i understood. i had found myself in another world. i thought it was a good thing. i still think it was a good thing. things happen that way. maybe something happened that was somewhat new, a new kind of person. they came out of the 60's, came out of this time in america. it was where people like me were given an opportunity or whatever. i don't know. it was a combination of things.

i remember one time, i did this scene in the studio. i will never forget this. charlie, i saw on his deathbed, i told him, remember the time when they were doing this big thing? every teacher brought their student that they wanted to show how they were doing it. and i went into this thing and i did this scene. i remember when i came to see you good stuff. and the teacher got up. and went crazy against me. they thought it was the worst. who do you think you are? and i was thinking, what is this about?

what was that? and i asked charlie, why was he doing that? he said, he had seen a new time and a new era. and i thought it's very dramatic to hear that when charlie says, i don't know if it true. but i do know it was interesting because that was happening. something comes along and you get used to it. in the old days, actors have to pronounce things a certain way. and be a certain height, so they can be seen in the audience. i don't mean to compare myself with people like edmund kean. but i was a ways reading books about actors. and i would read about edmund kean, who came at a time when he

came from a whole other climate. a whole other world. and when he went on stage, it was new. and i think there was something about the roles i played in this situation and the times we are in and they connected and i got lucky. and it's been this thing all my life. i have to say it, you have heard a lot, but it is true, it is luck. it is timing. i am member saying once to someone, we are all together and actors. at the same time, you're doing so well. all this stuff, you wanted it. and this guy said al, why you? why not me?

i want this stuff. i said yeah. you wanted it, but i had to have it. charlie: oh, wow. had to have it. pacino: that's an interesting distinction. one doesn't know. i am just mouthing now, because i don't know. charlie: you had to have it. pacino: believe it or not, i could tell it when somebody -- i knew at some point, this was my time. i never knew it would turn into this, but i knew it was my time that i would be seen. enough had happened, in this play, you know, i did three plays there. i went to do a part in a play. there was no way -- they all wanted me for it.

they all said i would be great. i got up and did it. and it was not good at all. as a matter of fact, i remember i was in the dressing room. somebody came down and i heard it on the speaker. and this guy in the dressing room was really excited by this review of the play we were doing. and i said, what is that? and i thought, why is he covering it? finally, he pushed it over to me. i looked at it and it was a great review. this person, that person, how great. with one exception. it was al pacino in the role, it was terrible. and i read that and as i was reading it, my queue came on and i had to go on stage. i had to perform after reading that in the play he was criticizing. i laughed. i think when you are at a

certain time the ability to look at something like that and laugh, it might have helped me a little bit. it hurt. and the other part, i was ok with. it was always the question of, what do we do? you walk along the street, you see a certain tree. you either take a picture or you get the canvas out and painted. you never know when it is going to happen. and with actors, if you don't try, you are not going to know. and what happens, if you start to censor yourself when you start censoring yourself think it's a little, uh -- because we don't know. charlie: you have been willing to take risks. thank you for coming. pacino: great talking to you charlie. charlie: the humbling and danny collins, one a singer and the other a theater actor.

looking at their own life and what they might have missed and where they might go. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

♪ emily: he is the provocateur behind some of the big ideas of our time. a creator of a sort of pop science. an unofficial, but incredibly influential set of laws that govern human behavior. between five "new york times" bestsellers and two decades at "the new yorker," malcolm gladwell has inspired, inflamed, and perplexed the most critical of readers. joining me on "studio 1.0," author, journalist, and thought-provoker, malcolm gladwell. thank you so much for being here, it's really great to have you. in your latest book, "david and goliath," your argument is