john: i'm john heilemann. mark: i'm mark halperin. "with all due respect" to hillary clinton, when you're choosing between baskets and containers, bill bradley will tell you always go with the baskets. john: right. ♪ mark: on the show tonight, the tablet, the barrel and the dollar bill. first, governor mike pence of indiana is struggling to make his religious freedom law not to look like an anti-gay law. he has gotten hot tamale criticism from ceos and others. it is enough to make someone go through reflection leading up to a news conference earlier today. gov. pence: after much

reflection and in consultation with leadership of the general assembly, i've come to the conclusion it would be helpful to move legislation this week that makes it clear this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone. we need to deal with it so that everyone around the country and around the world knows indiana is a welcoming place to everybody. i agree. we have to correct that perception. mark: despite governor pence's attempt to calm this down, arkansas's legislation has passed a comparable law sending it to the governor's desk. the question for you, didn't governor pence effectively solve his political problem today on this issue? john: i think this is not just a political problem for governor pence, but a problem for the entire republican party. i think the arkansas law makes that clear. you saw the way the 2016ers on the gop side piled in behind this law even when governor

pence is now trying to walk it back. i don't think there is a solution. they are not going to go to a lot of people like this is a law based on intolerance and that is bad news for the republican party in its attempt to court younger and many other voters. mark: it is not clear, despite governor pence's desire to change this law, how we can satisfy both the business community, the gay-rights community and his more conservative legislature because governor pence is saying an extraordinary thing. he is saying nobody should be harassed or mistreated because of who they are, who they love or what they believe. that puts him to the left in theory of a lot of governors from other states, including maybe some democratic governors. i don't see at this point how we fixes this law and squares the circle with everybody that is fired up about this. john: if you take him at his word, the quote you just read, he should now come out and not only try to fix this law, but also in favor of antidiscrimination law on the basis of sexual orientation in

the workplace and public accommodations. about 20 states have laws like that. indiana does not. he should be in favor of that law and you know darn well he is not. mark: as long as the heat stays this high and you see more businesses and people from sports and entertainment talking, do not underestimate the extent of the governor pence is not wear his legislature is and that makes coming up with a solution is really hard. the marketing department at apple has its next tv ad. hillary clinton used an ipad to e-mail her staff while she was secretary of state. she launched messages about issues like pakistan from that ipad. republican congressman trey gowdy is asking clinton to appear before his benghazi committee by may 1. john, on a scale from one to godzilla, how big a deal are these latest revelations?

john: i think it is more like one of the creatures from "the walking dead." the main thing, the main takeaway from her press conference is i did not want to have two devices for the sake of convenience. she had at least two so that entire argument has crumbled at her feet. i think this is a problem that continues to plague her for many more weeks, possibly months. mark: next, hillary clinton has a pretty long tradition, including on benghazi, of going up to capitol hill and kicking butt. being a great witness on her behalf. i think her staff thinks she can do it again. on this issue, she may end up meeting her match with chairman gowdy. he may have better prepared questions for her and that could spell a lot of political trouble for her. john: i think on top of that you could argue that part of the reason why she did well in

previous benghazi hearings is because she had really nothing to cover up and she had the facts on her side. with the e-mail controversy, the facts are not on her side. that will be harder for her to argue from a position of weakness. mark: the more that this drip, drip happens on substantive problems in terms of her cavalier attitude towards her e-mails, the more democrats worry they are getting themselves into a coronation for a nominee that has questions to answer. believe me, they are talking amongst themselves about it. john: it is not the first time we have heard it. it is those kinds of murmurs in 2008 that made way for barack obama. i have to say i think since the story broke, you started to hear in the councils of the establishment talk like that. it is not that she cannot overcome it.

mark: martin o'malley did not do his reenactment of the performance with george stephanopoulos when asked about hillary clinton. he stayed positive. that is some good news for her that he did not smell blood, at least today. all right, john, when is a front runner not a front runner? there is a new poll that shows jeb bush is no longer ahead in new hampshire. he is basically tied with scott walker. in republican circles, murmurs are being murmured about bush's apparent flaws and there are many. if jeb bush is in a barrel of semi-crisis, what are the elements of that? john: one is what we pointed to for a long time. he has fund-raising strength above all. there is almost nothing else that he really has. his poll numbers are fine but not great. there is no clear state he can win and there are many in the republican party that are saying

they like him fine, but they want a new generation of leadership to take on hillary clinton. those words are getting louder and louder all the time. mark: he is a paper tiger in the view of many. the excitement over marco rubio in florida and around the country highlights the weakness of jeb bush. not a new face or young. not someone who can claim to be part of a new generation. two, people are concerned about the bush brand. there is no way to put that to rest. the last thing is he has not found a way to put the rest conservative concerns about whether he is too moderate. it is clear going out and saying i have backbone and standing up for what i believe in will not satisfy quite a few people. i know it is still early, but the current frame on bush is not a very good one as he takes the week off. john: the populist wing of the party is stronger that it has ever been.

this might be the year we might get something different or at least an establishment candidate that can play to the populist wing and jeb bush has no ability to do that. mark: when we come back, bill bradley -- we will sit down with him because if we stood up, we would need an a bigger studio. we will be back after this. ♪

mark: our guest tonight is a hall of fame expert on russia and the united states, former senator bill bradley. thank you for making your debut here. sen. bradley: it is my honor to be here with you. i love the set. mark: i want to talk about what is going on in indiana and now arkansas. what does it say about the political parties in america how this thing has become such a big deal? sen. bradley: one of the parties is moving away from what the mainstream is. the mainstream is moving and it

is losing the republicans when they make these kind of decisions. mark: your party has not always supported equal rights for gays and lesbians. the president came out relatively recently as well as you. did that give you some pause in saying republicans are behind the times? sen. bradley: i would hope that they could move over and put this issue behind us and move forward. mark: by doing what? sen. bradley: by saying whether you are gay or not should not be subject to discrimination. mark: is there any area in which you think the gays and lesbians are entitled to exactly the same rights as every other american? sen. bradley: i think they should be married and have every other right. absolutely. mark: what caused you to change your view on these issues? sen. bradley: i kind of grew up. like a lot of people, thought that all gays should have the same legal rights but not marriage and then realized i think marriage is a part of it.

mark: will republicans play a political price and don't change on this issue? sen. bradley: i think basically yes because the whole electorate has moved and if they are out of step, it becomes a character question. they think they have the character issue by taking the position that they take for their primary electorate but not in the general election. john: let me ask you a question about 2016. we are heading into a race that could very well end up with hillary clinton as the democratic nominee and jeb bush as the republican nominee. a couple of noted political scholars like barbara bush has suggested in the past that america has a lot of great families. we don't need any more bushes. martin o'malley says the presidency is not some ground to be passed between families. how do you feel about the notion that we can end up with a clinton-busch race?

sen. bradley: you have primaries in each party and whoever wins they are the selection of the party. you think there should be somebody else. there is a process for this election to be made and it could be hillary clinton or jeb bush. john: do you feel there is a certain analogy between the democratic side on what happened with you back in 2000? you had al gore who was a semi-incumbent. do you think there will be a challenger to hillary clinton like you? sen. bradley: if somebody is going to run for president against hillary clinton, or my case the vice president, you have to feel it deep in your gut that this is the time for you to do it. john: should there be a challenger to her? sen. bradley: i'm not to say who should be a challenger. why not? will it actually succeed?

i think it is highly unlikely. will it keep her sharp? possibly. john: how would you do it? sen. bradley: i would not run against her. john: why not? sen. bradley: i have been on one suicide mission. i wouldn't take a second one. [laughter] mark: talk about where we have been with russia. there was optimism over the last couple of decades that russia would become moorman allied to the united states and have a democracy and thriving economy. how bad is the situation with russia right now? is any of the problems with russia follow to the feet of president obama? sen. bradley: i think we have made mistakes with russia since the clinton administration. the expansion of nato was a problem. kosovo was a problem. i think we did things they asked us not to do and we did not build a certificate relationship with them.

-- a strategic relationship with them. when putin went to munich in 2007 and laid out his disagreements, we did not take that seriously. therefore, we are where we are today. ukraine is more central to russia's interests than it is to the west interests. the more we try to debate things like sending military to ukraine, we split the western alliance. the germans do not want that the french do not want that, the polls want that. we have to understand what is at stake and take a long-term. i think president obama has done well on this. he came after a long period of time where the wrong policy was made on russia. he tried to reset it as problems -- i don't know what the relationship was -- mark: are you saying that given russia has a great interest and ukraine that the united states should not try to get russia out of crimea, should not try to help the current ukrainian government?

sen. bradley: there can be political, economic help but not military. mark: if they end up taking over ukraine, that is fine? sen. bradley: we have to ask ourselves are we prepared to send our boys and girls to die in ukraine? i don't think we are. we have to accept certain geopolitical facts. mark: let's move to some basketball. john: we have heard your political expertise. you have a lot of expertise on hoops. the final four is coming up. who do you have in the two games? talk about duke and michigan state first. sen. bradley: i think duke will win and kentucky will probably beat wisconsin and duke might pull an upset. john: do you think wisconsin is the only team in the tournament that has a chance to beat kentucky? sen. bradley: i love the way wisconsin plays. can their center be effective against three big guys on the

kentucky team? that is what we have to see. if he is, they can pull it off. john: what is the mental state of this kentucky team having come so far undefeated and coming so close to blowing the game against notre dame the other night? they fired up or shaken? sen. bradley: if they are not fired up, i don't know what the problem is. they are in the final four. i regret that most of them is going to be gone next year and the system is in one year and then out. they are where they are and they have tremendous talent. mark: have you seen them a lot this year? sen. bradley: i have not. mark: they are poised to go undefeated potentially. do you think that makes them an all-time great team regardless? sen. bradley: anytime you win the championship, and you are undefeated, how can you do better? sure. i have not seen them enough to know.

mark: how would you rate the place that march madness has been the country compared to other sports? sen. bradley: a little bigger than i was there. we went to the final four in portland and got to our hotel. there were no beds. it was pullout sofas. i don't think kentucky will have that issue. mark: senator, sit tight. we will come back and spend a few more seconds in memory lane with you, right after this. ♪

mark: we talked to bill bradley about current events. we will talk about the highlights of his life. senator, we will look at these pictures from your past starting with this one from high school. we will get into a rhythm here.

first, this is from crystal city high. the state tournament, march 1961. the first question i have for you -- two adjectives to describe bill bradley 1961? sen. bradley: devout and possessed by basketball. mark: we are trying to leave a record for historians that will write long biographies about you. what is a misconception about you at this time? sen. bradley: that i could not dance. mark: people said you couldn't? sen. bradley: i could. mark: picture number two was from princeton. 1961-1965, you played for them and did pretty well. two adjectives to describe collegiate bill bradley. sen. bradley: hard-working and focused.

mark: your studies and your basketball. a misconception that people had about what you were like during that time. sen. bradley: that i actually wore better clothes. they thought i was not well dressed. mark: where did you get your clothing? sen. bradley: a place in st. louis, missouri where i grew up. boyd's. mark: is it still there? sen. bradley: no. mark: moving down memory lane, the new york knicks era. this is from the 1970's when you played for the knicks. two adjectives to describe knickerbocker bill bradley? sen. bradley: unselfish, hard-working. mark: were you more unselfish as a pro than college? sen. bradley: i played every -- probably i played a different game because i was a role player as opposed to the main man. mark: you were also pretty cerebral during that period. was that a problem?

sen. bradley: no. as a matter of fact, a lot of my teammates kind of liked that. mark: and, a misconception. what do people think wrongly about you as a pro? sen. bradley: that i failed terribly in the early years. mark: failed terribly? which is not true? sen. bradley: on second thought, it probably is true. mark: what is your best story about those days? sen. bradley: the best story was when a player on my team took me to get some clothing and i came back -- at that time, i was not wearing good clothes and people used to say bradley would not get mugged in new york because people would think he was already mugged based on the clothing he wore. mark: when you were at the height of the knicks winning what was it like walking around in manhattan? sen. bradley: it was great. people would not bother you.

you could be well-known and still have a life. you were not constantly followed. it was a wonderful time in my life. mark: probably the best place to be to be a star. moving on, this is from your senate years. what is that you are carrying? sen. bradley: that is my folder with all the hearing materials. mark: this is outside the capital in june 1986. two adjectives. sen. bradley: young and dedicated. mark: how young were you when you were elected? sen. bradley: 35, the youngest senator. mark: what were your big accomplishments? sen. bradley: tax reforms. the program i created to bring russian students to live with american families. work on the uruguay trade was important. mark: the biggest misconception about what you were like as a

senator? sen. bradley: that i was purely a plotting politician. i was a master. mark: what senator today were you most like, would you say? sen. bradley: i love harry reid. yeah. mark: a fighter. last one, one of my favorite periods -- 2000 presidential candidate. new hampshire, january 31, 2000. two adjectives to describe presidental candidate bill bradley. sen. bradley: overweight and a little too, too much believing in his own capacity. mark: could that have been a winnable race if you could go back? sen. bradley: highly unlikely. mark: what is one thing about presidential candidate bill bradley that historians are in danger of getting wrong?

sen. bradley: that i did not dance. i did dance. mark: even as a presidential candidate. sen. bradley: that is how these things connect from high school to presidential candidate. high school said i could not dance but here i did. mark: if you can be president today without having to run, would you take the job? sen. bradley: that is ridiculous. sure. who wouldn't? mark: not everybody wants to be president. sen. bradley: those days are over for me. that is a purely hypothetical question. mark: senator bradley, stick around. we will do one more thing with you after this. ♪

mark: as we do with all of our guests, we will ask senator bradley to sign a basketball. we are live 24/7 on bloombergpolitics.com. up next is "taking stock." on bloomberg radio, "bloomberg law." senator bradley, thank you.

look back at the camera and say sayonara. sen. bradley: sayo

pimm: hello, this is what i am "taking stock" of on this tuesday, march 31, 2015. indiana governor mike pence has a perception problem. the governor says his state's new religious freedom law does not permit discrimination against gay and lesbian people. gov. pence: i don't believe for a minute that it was the intention of the general assembly to create a license to discriminate or a right to deny services to anyone in this state. it was not my intent. pimm: the negotiations regarding iran's nuclear program will continue into another day. the deadline was extended as leaders met in switzerland. a u.s. state