. >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: the syrian civil war has been going on for four years. in march, 2011, protests against president bashar al-assad have been met with violence. jordan, lebanon, and turkey have almost 4 million refugees in their countries. the conflict also led to the rise of isis. almost half of the country is in

the hands of isis or other groups fighting the regime. the war has also become a proxy battlefield for regional actors. john kerry suggested what others have suggested. there has to be a political solution. he included negotiations with syria. i spoke to bashar al-assad last week for “60 minutes.” here is the full conversation. charlie rose: thank you for allowing us to come here. we asked for this interview because your country has been at war for four years. it is a humanitarian crisis. perhaps the worst on the planet. 10 million have left their homes. life expectancy is down. 50% of your country is occupied by hostile forces.

it has become a battleground for outside forces. what is next? we have seen, since i last visited, they rise of isis. hezbollah. we have seen the united states becoming increasingly concerned about isis, so much so that the president and the secretary of state have said there is a need for a negotiated settlement. president assad: the meaning of your question is exaggerating the numbers a bit. [indiscernible] actually three families who lost their dear ones, it is a tragedy that has been going -- every family has lost something and their livelihood. a few thousands or hundreds of thousands, it is a tragedy.

every conflict should end up with dialogue. article solutions between different parties. that is what we have been doing in syria. during the last three years, dealing directly with the militants. we have succeeded in making reconciliations. regarding the rise of isis, in the context of events in syria in the last four years, isis did not rise suddenly. it is not possible. it could not appear suddenly with all the resources financial and humanitarian resources, without support from the outside.

and without being prepared gradually or incrementally. the rise of isis did not happen suddenly. it was a result of events that happened at the beginning of the conflict that we mentioned many times, but no one in the west has listened to. i want to mention the statement of kerry regarding the dialogue. what we have in so far is only a statement read nothing concrete. no approach towards the situation or problem in syria. but as principle, in syria, we could say, every dialogue is a positive thing. we will be open to any dialogue with anyone, including the united states, regarding anything based on mutual respect. i would say this approach of the united states, toward syria or others to make dialogue, is a positive thing but we have to wait for the reality.

charlie: what is the communication between your government and the u.s.? president assad: there is no dialogue. nothing yet. charlie: would you like to have that? president assad: any dialogue is positive in principle. without pressuring the sovereignty of syria, especially regarding the fighting of terrorism. charlie: what are you prepared to do in terms of negotiations? if part of that is to see a transition government, would you see that? president assad: anything regarding syrian politics should the related to the syrian people. not to anyone. we will not discuss with the americans or anyone about our constitution, our laws. we can cooperate about fighting terrorism and putting pressure on countries like saudi arabia and turkey.

countries that support terrorists politically. charlie: this cannot end militarily. you agree? president assad: every war every conflict, should end with a political solution. charlie: well then, draw me a roadmap for a political solution. what does it look like? president assad: different levels. regional, international. the most important part in the local, it should have two things. the dialogue between syrians about everything. the political system. other details beyond this. the future of the country.

second, make direct dialogue with the militants as we did to give them amnesty and to give up armaments and go back to their normal life. charlie: when you say militants, who do you mean? president assad: some are terrorists, some were implicated by events for different reasons. whoever carries guns and tries to destroy the public infrastructure or attacks people, that is a militants. charlie: so much of the power is in your hands to engage in the process. if they demanded you step down before you negotiate, that is on -- unacceptable to you? president assad: by the militants?

charlie: i mean by the united states and parties to the conversation. president assad: no external party has anything to do with the future of syria. we will not discuss it with them. whenever the syrian people want to change their president, it should be changed. it must be through political parties and constitutional processes. that is how we change presidents. not through terrorism and external intervention. charlie: some said isis was the best thing that happened to you and some of the things you have done have benefited them? president assad: let's go back to what president obama said in one of his interviews. he said the moderate opposition in syria is elusive. that is very key of president obama -- we always said, there is no moderate opposition. the rise of isis was not suddden. that amputation, eating the

heart of the victims, beheading come of that started from the beginning of the conflict. it started with what they call the moderate opposition. what is happening with all of them, they attacked military bases. they killed our soldiers. they destroyed our economy. how could that be the best thing that happened to me? in what logic? to destroy the country? to kill your supporters and others? in what sense could that be the best thing that happened to me or the government? that is illogical. charlie: with the new reality of isis, what changes do you see an attitude toward you in staying in the syrian government? president assad: regarding the west? i think the west has changed their regulations after the rise of isis. that didn't mean they change

their approach to conflict in syria and iraq. i don't they have learned the lesson. as a result that will not change the course of events because at the very beginning of the problem, from the western perspective, is to change the system or the president or the government they do not like. they are still moving in the same direction. that is why nothing concrete has changed. their priority is to fight isis, but that does not mean their priority is to get writ of isis. charlie: how can you see the u.s. cooperating with syria? president assad: there is no direct cooperation. in the future, there must be direct dialogue to fight terrorism because it is on our ground, in our soil. they cannot defeat it without our cooperation.

without having our information because we live with this and we know the reality. charlie: most people believe there is unofficial cooperation and it goes through iraq. how does that work? american airstrikes, so it can coordinate with what you are doing? president assad: through a third party. it was very clear they were attacking isis, not the syrian army. charlie: which third-party? iraq and who else? president assad: iraqi officials, russian officials. charlie: what is the level of that information? is it just about airstrikes? is it about other activities on the ground that are taking place? president assad: no details,

only the headlines. the principle that they are going to attack isis in syria and iraq. charlie: when you shot down an american drone, did you know it was american? president assad: no. because, any aircraft, it will not tell you it is american. when you have foreign aircraft you shoot it. that is military rules. charlie: how much benefit are you getting from american airstrikes in syria reducing the power of isis? president assad: sometimes you could have local benefit but in general if you want to talk in terms of isis actually isis has expanded since the beginning of the strikes. not like some american wants to

sugar coat the situation as to say that it's getting better. isis is being defeated and so on. actually, no, you have more recruits. some estimates that they have 1,000 recruits every month in syria. and iraq, they are expanding in libya and many other al qaeda affiliate organizations have announced their allegiance to isis. charlie: how much territory do they control in syria? president assad: yeah, it's not regular war. you don't have criteria. it's not an army that makes incursion. they try to infiltrate any area when there is no army and we have inhibitance. the question, how much incubator -- hearts and minds they have, that's the question. how much heart and minds they won so far. charlie: and how much of that? how do you measure that -- president assad: you cannot measure it but you can tell that the majority of the people who suffered from isis, they are supporting the government and, of course, the rest of the

syrian people are afraid from isis and i don't think they would -- i think they lost a lot of hearts and minds. charlie: they've lost a lot? president assad: they have lost. except the very ideological people who have the hearts and states of mind and ideology. ♪

charlie: explain to me why people are fleeing to go to refugee camps in jordan and turkey. what are they fleeing from? president assad: those camps started being built before there

was real conflict in syria. so, it was premeditated. to be used as humanitarian headlines, to be used against syria. a pretext for military intervention. that is how it started. they started giving incentive for people to flee. now, the majority of those fled because of terrorism. i will give you an example. during the presidential elections, even in jordan, they voted for the president. that is a concrete indication. you cannot ignore it. charlie: i have interviewed some of them, and they were fearful of the syrian army and repercussions in syria people knew they were being interviewed.

president assad: that could happen. you have different kind of people and for kinds of perceptions. you cannot say everybody fled just because of the terrorists. some because of the situation. they want to go to a safer place. they have different reasons for the refugees. 90% of the civilian casualties 90% come from the syrian army. president assad: how did you get that result? charlie: that was a report that was issued in the last six months. president assad: ok. as i said earlier, the war, it's not traditional war. it's not about capturing land and gaining land. it's about winning the hearts and minds of the syrians. we cannot win the heart and minds of the syrians while we are killing syrians. we cannot sustain four years in that position as a government. and me as president, while the rest of the world, most of the world, the great powers, the regional power, are against me and my people are against me. that's impossible. i mean this logic has no leg to stand on.

so this is not realistic and this is against our interests as government is to kill the people. what do we get? charlie: there are weapons of war that have been used that most people look down on with great -- one is chlorine gas. they believe that has been used here. they said there is evidence of that and they would like to have the right to inspect to see where it's coming from. as you know, barrel bombs have been used. and they come from helicopters. and the only people who have helicopters is the syrian army. president assad: it's very important. this is part of the malicious propaganda against syria. first of all, the chlorine gas is not military gas. you can buy it anywhere. charlie: but it can be weaponized -- president assad: no, because it's not very effective it's not used as military gas. that's very self-evident. traditional arms is more important than chlorine. and if it was very effective the terrorists would have used this on a larger scale. because it's not effective, it's not used very much.

charlie: then why not let somebody come in and inspect it and see whether it's been used or not? you'd be happy for that? president assad: of course. we always ask a delegation impartial delegation to come and investigate. but i mean logically and realistically it cannot be used as a military. this is part of the propaganda because, as you know, in the media when it bleeds it leads. and they always look for something that bleeds, which is the chlorine gas and the barrel bombs. this is not realistic. no army uses bombs that don't aim. the state of the art. the precision missiles have killed more civilians than terrorists. it is not about a on that -- about a bomb that doesn't aim. it is about the way you use it.

charlie: but then you are acknowledging that you use it. you do use barrel bombs? you're just saying -- president assad: no, no. there's no such a thing called barrel bombs. we have bombs. and any bomb is about killing. charlie: you have often spoken -- most people understand what a barrel bomb is. they understand how it is dropped from a heleicopter. president assad: we have good military in syria. we don't have to make bombs from barrels. this is only used to demonize the syrian army. president assad: if they were used by the syrian army, would you order them to stop? president assad: again, what is a barrel bomb? charlie: it is a bomb that inflicts civilian casualties. president assad: every bomb is made to kill. it is not about the bomb.

let's talk about casualties. every war is malignant, bad. you don't have benign wars. that's why wars are bad because you always have casualties. it is not related to a certain kind of bomb or bullet. that is another issue. charlie: are you denying barrel bombs are used and inflicting great civilian casualties? president assad: as i say, we use bombs. you don't describe what we used by the shape. you don't describe it this way. you use armament. if you have casualties, it is a mistake that could happen in every war. your aim is to kill terrorists

not to kill your people. charlie: you are acknowledging they come from helicopters. president assad: this is a technical issue. you can throw them from an airplane or missile. you don't have to use helicopters. charlie: if i hear you correctly, you aknowledge they are being used but they are like other bombs and are not necessarily different than any other weapon. president assad: we don't have a bomb called a barrel bomb. the name came through the media or from the media. we don't have it. when you call our bombs, that is related to the media and adopted by the west in order to demonize the syrian army. we don't have something called barrel bombs that kills indiscriminately.

if you have a strong bomb, a weak bomb, or whatever, you can call it whatever you want. we have regular, traditional armaments. charlie: you have often spoken about the danger of a wider war in the middle east. president assad: yeah. charlie: can you talk about the parties involved? and characterize how you see them. let me begin with saudi arabia. president assad: saudi arabia is an autocracy. medieval system that's based on the wahhabi dark ideology. actually, say it's a marriage between the wahhabi and the political system for 200 years now. that's how we look at it. charlie: and what is their connection to isis? president assad: the same ideology. the same background. charlie: so isis and saudi arabia are one and the same? president assad: the same ideology. charlie: same ideology. president assad: it's wahhabi ideology. their ideology is based on the books of the wahhabi and saudi arabia. charlie: so you believe that all wahhabis have the same ideology as isis -- president assad: exactly. definitely. and that's by isis, by al qaeda by al nusra. it's not something we discover or we try to promote. it's very -- i mean their book

-- they use the same books to indoctrinate the people. charlie: what about turkey? president assad: turkey let's say it's about erdogan. his muslim brotherhood fanatics. it doesn't mean that he is a member. but he's a fanatic. charlie: president erdogan is -- president assad: is a muslim brotherhood fanatic. and he's somebody who's suffering from political megalomania. and he thinks that he is becoming the sultan of the new era of the 21st century. charlie: you think he could stop the border if he wanted to? president assad: yeah, of course. definitely. he doesn't only ignore the terrorists from coming to syria. he supports them, logistically and militarily. directly. on a daily basis. and if you take the example of

the city where the kurds were fighting isis and the american military campaign started, it took them four months to liberate that small city. not only because the airstrikes happened, but because of the direct support of turks for isis. charlie: they were supporting them directly? president assad: directly. charlie: you were quoted as saying the syrian army could have a limited them in three weeks? president assad: they were liberated in a few weeks without using airstrikes. charlie: why did you spend more time attacking aleppo? president assad: we were getting rid of terrorists. there are no moderates in aleppo. charlie: the definition of a terrorist is what? president assad: whenever you

hold a gun and kill people and destroy public buildings and private property. charlie: anybody who opposes your government in syria? president assad: the word opposition is political opposition. do you have military opposition? would you accept it? you would not. nobody accepts military opposition. charlie: it is one thing to say there is military opposition. it is another thing to call them terrorist. president assad: military opposition is terrorism. whenever you hold a gun and try to kill, that is terrorism. it is not my definition. whenever you want to make opposition, it is going to be political opposition. like your country. you have the same criteria. we do not have different criteria. charlie: if there is a negotiation, would you accept as part of your negotiation, to

share power in syria with anyone who is in opposition with you, whether they are moderates or terrorist, if they lay down their arms and say, we want to be part of a future transition government in syria? president assad: whenever they lay down their arms, they are not terrorists anymore. charlie: isis? president assad: isis will not. this is, how do you say, virtual? they want to fight and be killed and go to paradise. they will not negotiate. we cannot answer something which is virtual, not realistic. the realistic one is many of the militants lay down their arms, and they are working with the government now. that is reality. it is happening and part of reconciliation. people are interested in politics. some are interested only going

back to their normal life. not being part of politics. of course we are open. whenever there is political opposition, we are open to deal with it. charlie: secretary kerry has called you a brutal dictator. does that bother you? is that an accurate description of you? president assad: you want the rest of the world to know the reality. this kind of description, to hear it from an official, would not be important unless the syrian citizens said this word. because the syrian people still support you, it is impossible to be a dictator killing your people and have the support of the people. charlie: it is said there was a point several years ago in which you were in a difficult place. some people thought the government would fall, even suggestions you were planning to leave.

and then the iranians and hezbollah came in and the tide begin to turn. if that is true, it means the syrian people were not supporting you. before foreign forces came, you were about to lose. president assad: iranian forces never came. charlie: he is always here. president assad: he is in the same place -- you have cooperation. that is different than sending troops. sending troops is different than having cooperation. charlie: it doesn't matter where

they came from, if they are under your command. if you are giving direction to hezbollah. president assad: your question implies iranians are fighting in syria. we have the right to bring them to fight with us. at the same time, we did not deny hezbollah -- charlie: why, when the so-called arab spring came, were you about to lose power? until outside forces came in?

it is self-evident the syrian people were not supporting you if -- president assad: if you have the arab spring today, nobody can help you. it is a different situation you mentioned earlier. between the beginning of the crisis and today. we are getting more support from the syrian people. they discovered the truth. we have support even from many people in the opposition against terrorism. the situation has changed. not iran or hezbollah. the syrian population has changed. hezbollah is not a big army. it cannot play that role all over syria. charlie: the game on the ground did not change until they came. president assad: that is not true. charlie: you did not need them? president assad: they play an important part. you talk about 23 million in syria. you have arab spring, a few

thousand fighters from from hezbollah will not change the balance. ♪

charlie: even though secretary

kerry has said you were part of the problem in solution, they do not want you in power. president assad: they do not know what they want. what we want is whatever the syrian people want. charlie: you have a relationship with them and you know what they want. president assad: first of all sharing of power. in the united states cia, or in france. patriotic syrian opposition that is what represents the syrians. charlie: where do you mean by

sharing power? president assad: they can share in the power, in the local government, and be part of the decisions. charlie: you and your father have held power in syria for how many years? the combination of you in georgia father? -- you and your father? persresident assad: we don't say george w. bush is the son of george bush. it is different. it does not matter. it is not a family rule, as you

want to apply. no, it is not. it has nothing to do with me being president. charlie: but, the conventional wisdom is that after your older brother died, your father wanted you to come back because he wanted you to be able to receive power when he left. he did not want you to come back? then why did you become part of the political process? president assad: the army has made the reality and history in this country. charlie: would he have done

things differently if he was here today? president assad: i cannot answer that question on his behalf. nobody knows. he would not submit to an intervention and he would have defended his country. these same thing happened in the 70's and early's 80's. they were destroying and burning in t5 it. that was his mission as the president. that is what he had to do to relieve the killing of the people. charlie: it is a fair appraisal that you believe that everything that must be done, the end justifies the means to stop terrorism in syria as you defend

it -- define it? president assad: no. you should have values and principles. according to your values you have to defend your people. you have to defend your country. for your interests, you have to get rid of terrorism. that is the way. charlie: tell us what the russians want. they are a strong ally of you. what do they want? president assad: definitely they want to have balance in the world. it is not only about syria. it is not about having a huge interest in syria. they can have it anywhere else. they want to be a great power that has their own say in the future of this world. charlie: what do they want in

syria? president assad: a political solution. charlie: what is your obligation to both of them? what do you them? president assad: they did not ask us for anything. nothing at all. they don't do that for syria, they do it for the region and for the world. civility is very in -- important to them. if you have conflict here, it will burn someone there. terrorism has no boundaries. it sees no borders. it is much more difficult to take any procedure -- when you have terrorism anywhere, it could reach russia.

it could reach anywhere. russia, iran, many other entry support syria and not because they support the president or the government, but because they want to help themselves. charlie: let me present an alternative argument that the united states may very well believe. that they support you because of a long standing relationship. they want access to lebanon. they support you because it is part of the larger conflict between the sunni and shiite's. president assad: the way the iranians look at this soon i shiite -- at the sunni, shiite conflict is they want to stop the conflict in iran. that is their point of view, and that is how we see it. we agree with that.

actually, they are going the other way. they want to always have free conciliation to the muslims. because that is very good. they do not look at the issues in syria as part. they want to instigate this conflict in order to bring more of the muslims to their side. charlie: as you know, there are many people who look at the mideast today beyond israel and say within the islamic world, it is all about conflict between saudi arabia and iran. those two are mortal enemies fighting for influence in the middle east. president assad: it looks like if iran wants to attack the shiites, it actually started with the saudi arabia with the revelation. they never interfere with any

other countries relations. even in syria. saudi propaganda, the whole issue of shiite conflict is based in propaganda. it is reality, but because of the soldiers. saudi arabia wanted to promote that, isis wanted to promote that. sectarian issues. charlie: how do you see the region now. one is the rise of isis in syria. one is the rise of isis in iraq. when you look at a rack iranians are supporting the shiite militia in iraq. the united states is engaged in airstrikes. they just had an airstrike

yesterday into crete. -- in itikrit. president assad: many others joined. so it is a mixture now. charlie: what is the possibility of iranian -- american cooperation? president assad: i do not think that anyone trusts that the american administration really wants to fight these kind of terrorists. the whole launch, much less the airstrike [indiscernible] why did they join?

they want to get part of the cake? we defeated isis, where were they in the last two months. it is not something we wanted to attack and -- charlie: so what do you think they want in iraq? president assad: they want to get rid of the terrorists. no one knows how long it will take. they there is isis and many extremists. charlie: when you look at the future, in view look at the battle ahead, how much of the conflict that is here today can the syrian government withstand? how much of the syrian country this a very in -- the syrian

loss? will there be anything left in syria? president assad: this is not the first kind of crisis that have been faced in history. many are similar to damascus. it is about the syrian population. determined to survive and protect their country and rebuild it. the syrian people prove that they have strong [indiscernible] we do not have any other option. what other option do we have? what options do we have except to defend our country, to fight terrorism. charlie: i asked the question because many ask what is the cost to syria, what is it going through in how will they put the

pieces back together? whenever there is finally in and to this, how will you put this back together? president assad: there is a that what is happening in syria is a civil war. it is not a civil war. when you have a civil war, there is clear lines. that is not what we have. what we have our terrorist-infiltrated areas and people are suffering from the fight of those terrorists in from the terrorism of those terrorists. so you do not have division in society. we do not have a sectarian issue. you would be surprised if i tell you the sectarian issue in syria today is better than the sectarian issue before the crisis. people are more unified now. because of the conflicts regarding the unity of the state .

so we cannot talk about how can you rebuild the society. the society is suffering from aspects of the problems but it is not divided anymore. that is very important. this is a very bad conflict but every cloud must have a silver lining and this is these silver lining. we do not have problems as long as society is unified and homogenous. regardless, in some dark part of society, ideological corners of society that support isis but it is not the general situation charlie:. wide you think the people in the west -- charlie: why do you

think the people in the west question you? president assad: i don't care about my legitimacy questioned that they are. because it used to be puppets, not independent leaders. that is the deep -- problem with putin. the united states don't accept partners, they only accept followers. that is to be very frank with you. that is their problem in syria. they need a puppet. someone they can control by remote control. charlie: someone said to me that the majority of syrians support neither the government nor isis. president assad: i don't think this is realistic. even the people who oppose the

government, oppose isis. charlie: that is the question, isn't it? even the people who oppose the government oppose ices. what are you prepared to do and and what are they prepared to do and how will you get people with a vested interest like the russians and the iranians and the americans? president assad: very simply we do not put the government and isis on the same level. not to support the government does not mean to support isis. it means automatically they are going to be with the government against ices but not in other issue. it is point of views. it is not time for division. charlie: can you destroy isis without coming together with a united plan? president assad: you cannot

destroy them unless you are unified as a society, but again, isis is in the syria and iraq and libya. [indiscernible] something we do not have yet that is why defeating terrorism is going to be so difficult. charlie: that is the question. you do not have it yet and how do you get it. that is the future. president assad: you were talking about more than one party. you are talking about in international party. a very negative role for saudi. we would like to see this cohesion in fighting terrorism but how do we convince them. we do not have any -- channels with them. if they could see the reality

and a clear vision, they would [indiscernible] not because they support the syrian president or the syrian army internally, it is about only fighting terrorism. you need to contain it. you cannot fight them and defeat them from the air. that is a foregone conclusion. you cannot. charlie: do you want to see and other conference like the geneva conference that failed? what might happen there? president assad: that depends on different parties. i cannot talk on behalf of every party. for us, we have a principle to agree to dean announced terrorism, something like this. sharing power is based on how

much -- it you do not come and share power just because you want to see her power. -- because you want to share power. charlie: you have to be forced? president assad: maybe. maybe if we reach agreement it could be. but it is still too early to tell. charlie: i came here after secretary kerry had made his remarks. my question once i got here is when you heard those remarks you were optimistic. you were optimistic i think with that. you believed there is a way for your government and the american government to cooperate and coordinate. president assad: that is not the

main point involving that statement. i think the main point, we could have a feeling and note that we are right but the american administration caused us to abandon this policy, which is very harmful to them and to us. because if any country isolates it self like the united states in the course of events, talking about the negative events talking about the bombs that could kill the people slowly. our impression to say we are optimistic, more optimistic when they are thinking about that it does not matter what side of dialogue. it does not matter for them the real attention. the word dialogue is something we have not heard from the united states for a long time. charlie: but you just did, from

the secretary of state. we need to negotiate. president assad: when they abandoned this resolution, things should be better. charlie: why don't you reach out to secretary kerry in say, let's talk. president assad: we already talked. we never close to our doors. there is an open invitation. we did not make in embargo on the united states. we did not support terrorism. we always wanted to have good relations. nobody -- can you have good relationships with a country charlie: can you have good

relationships with a country who thinks you should not be in power? president assad: no one candy side this. whether they want to talk about it or not, it is not something we will discuss. charlie: mr. president, thank you. ♪

cory: welcome to "bloomberg west," where we cover innovation, technology, and the future of business. i am cory johnson. u.s. stocks in the first quarter, a selloff. the nasdaq and s&p, up for the quarter. ninth straight quarter of gains. talks over iran's nuclear program continue tomorrow in switzerland. diplomats are struggling to reach an outline for an agreement. here is iran's senior negotiator.