>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: alexander hamilton is the unlikely founding father who became part of american history. roosevelt called him the most brilliant statesman who ever lived. writer and composer lin-manuel miranda takes his legacy to new heights using hip-hop and music. >> ♪ just like my country

i am young, scrappy, and hungry i'm not throwing away my shot ♪ we are going to rise up, take a shot rise up, take a shot take a shot ♪ >> ♪ alexander hamilton i am not throwing away my shot ♪ charlie: joining me now is lin-manuel miranda. it is scheduled to move to broadway this summer. i'm pleased to have them at the

table. the response to this, it is remarkable. everybody wants it, the hot ticket in town. critics are crazed by it. peggy noonan, david brooks today, wrote wonderful columns about it. what more do you need? guest: there is nothing more i need. you have the wildest dreams version of how you think it will be received. we are trying to hold on while we can. i started writing this in 2008, while i was still in my show. i was on my first vacation and i picked up the book at random. at borders. charlie: said, i will take this one. lin-manuel: it had great reviews and i knew he died in a duel. fell in love with the story.

almost from the second chapter. charlie: there's a point where you say dickens. what was the dickensian element? lin-manuel: alexander hamilton was born possibly out of wedlock. his father's lit by the time he was 10 years old. his mother died in bed with him. his brother was apprenticed? he was by himself. he got sent to live with a cousin. the cousin killed himself. and then he got put in charge of a trading charter, a clerk for a trading company. they traded sugarcane and rum and slaves. he wrote his way off the island he wrote a poem about it. describing the carnage. saying he saw sites that would strike astonishment into angels.

his poem was used for relief efforts. people took up a funds to get him an education in new york. lin-manuel: here we have a character, a great american. he dies at the end of a dual . in which he may not have in fact fired his gun. you have translated in so much more. tell me about the ideas you wanted to pour into this to make it a new look at the founding fathers, the american experience. a different way of presenting it that would appeal to young people because you are people be by young actors. thomas: you speak to what we were conscious of. how do you illuminate distance between the story and now. we knew it was going to sound like now. fundamentally, this was a country founded and created by

immigrants. somebody in all of our line stepped off a boat, put their foot down, went to work. as we started think about taking the inspiration from ron's book, we thought you are events but we have two story. we had the events laid out. we read the book and made a timeline. we compared, hey, this moment feels essential. it became apparent early on, as we were designing how the show could function, this idea of doubling characters felt right on. the character who played lafayette, -- charlie: also plays jefferson. thomas: they have this relationship. how can we make the audience feel like who they are and what they understand is not so different from what these people were struggling with?

charlie: hip-hop seems like a genius stroke now. lin-manuel: that is the first thing i checked. somebody has already done a hip-hop aversion to read it felt like a quintessential hip-hop narrative. -- a hip-hop version of this. it felt like a quintessential hip-hop narrative. from the south rocks in the 70's to today. i googled hamilton hip-hop is a goal. it was not there. now you -- hip-hop musical. it was not there. that was the first thing that jumped out at me. this is a fundamental hip-hop story. charlie: the relationship between the two of you? thomas: he was a hotshot. lin-manuel: we did not meet

until we graduated from college. thomas: my buddies saw an early version of "the heights." they said, you have to meet this guy. i met him in 2002. we basically never stops talking. it has been a 13 year conversation that has led us to this table. charlie: how do you covenant each other? lin-manuel: i say, your hair looks great. charlie: you know what i mean. lin-manuel: one of the things i credit with him, he is someone who likes to come in and work. when "in the heights"

happened, he created deadlines for me even when we never knew if the show would be anything. it crated somewhere for me to go. we have continued that with every project we have done. thomas: hamilton was a continuation. he wrote one song, the key maybe i will make it into an out. that was 2009. he did it and a little place on pennsylvania avenue. the only song that existed from this potential hamilton thing. what i realized is, it was no different from the relationship we had forged on "heights." what he is able to do is take complex ideas, make them accessible to all of us. where the great gifts he has

given us he does not stand up and say, look where i am. he builds a letter. he says, come up here. my job was to help architect that ladder. did everyone who walks into the theater to participate and feel like it is also for them. that is one of the things i have been riding shotgun on for over a decade. charlie: i am just like my country, i am young, scrappy and hungry, and i am not throwing away my shot. you performed that at the white house. lin-manuel: i performed at the opening numbers, the opening number of the show. charlie: is that with the president responded to when he said, you should see this? lin-manuel: i told the assembled

audience -- they had asked me to perform something from 'in the hieghts." i said, i have something about the first treasury secretary. his response was, somebody got a get geither in here. he had a quote at that time. the economic crisis, everything had just blown up. he said geither has the hardest job as treasury secretary since alexander hamilton. this was very early in the obama administration. may, 2009. they were just figuring out how to do this thing. how to get us out of the hole we were in. i think he was tickled by the fact that i had made a treasury

secretary sing. it got a lot about halfway through. charlie: where did that idea,? aaron burr's perspective? lin-manuel: we have a great tradition of the antagonistic narrating. judas narrates jesus christ superstar. that set up the difficult task of figuring out who are in burn was. -- aaron burr is. charlie: but you think more of them. lin-manuel: i do after learning more about him. there are several biographies. gore vidal wrote a historical fiction novel. one of the things i learned, he is an early feminist. his daughter received an education greater than any man of that era. he was close with his wife and

daughter. he was on the mission society with alexander hamilton for the abolition of slaves in new york state. there were redeeming characteristics to this guy. i had to find my way to that. every biography is either insanely defensive or vilifies him. charlie: on one hand, aaron burr was cautious careful. alexander hamilton wanted to charge forward. lin-manuel: alexander hamilton left behind 27 volumes. burr left less than two. the tragedy of the show is, at the moment when burr is reckless

and let's go and hamilton is cautious, one kills the other. thomas kail: hamilton knew they would be bound forever to read that would ensure his legacy as someone had to be spoken about, he becomes slightly obsolete. some buddy who had thought about death so much. here he was, toward the end, not empowered or able to effect change. we talked early on. it is a credit of the writing. we have seen a lot of stories about to enemies. let's make a story about two people who were dear and complex friends and one kills his friend. lin-manuel: who were soldiers, lawyers, statesmen together. charlie: you thought about playing burr? lin-manuel: every time i wrote a

song, i thought, i should do it. he gets all the best songs of the show. now, you cannot imagine. it really fits leslie. he gets these wonderful moments. one my favorites being the room where it happens. he is talking about not in power. scene hamilton trade away the capital exchange for his financial plan. charlie: this is you at the white house in 2009, performing the first rap song you wrote for hamilton. lin-manuel: ♪ dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot in the caribbean the $10 founding father without a father by being the self-starter by 14 they placed him in charge

of the trading charter carted away across the waves kept his guard up something to be a part of than a hurricane came devastation reigned he saw his future drip dripping down the drain he wrote his first -- word got around they said this kid is insane don't forget from whence you came the world is going to know your name what's your name? ♪>> ♪ alexander hamilton ♪ there are a million things he hasn't done >> ♪ when he was 10 his

father split alex got thatbetter cousin committed suicide left him with the thing budget ruined pride alex, you got to fend for yourself he would have been dead and destitute without a sense of restitution trading sugarcane planning for the future on the ballot of the ship headed for a new land new york, a new man some other immigrant coming up me, i am the damn fool who shot

him ♪ ♪ charlie: could this have ever been done? it is almost like if they did not have hip-hop, it would have been created for this. lin-manuel: thank you. i think it is both a love letter to vocal pop and musical theater. but you're right, it is a heightened language. we learned early on, in the process of making ed, any time we did into ordinary speech, prose, energy went out. we have a ball we throw so high at the top that we have to keep it at that level. there are times when we take musical breaks and slow it down. this heightened language seem to be the only way to convey hamilton's worldview. ♪

charlie: was there a ridges you'll -- residual sadness about hamilton? lin-manuel: he suffered so much loss at such a long age. a profound sense of loss and lack of belonging. he came here, on more debt and looking for something to hold onto. -- unmored and

looking for southern to hold onto. he refused to see washington as a father figure. charlie: why did he refused to see him as a father vigor? lin-manuel: he quit as he wanted to command. he saw battle as the only way for social mobility. charlie: he was the king of social mobility. lin-manuel: one of the first letters we have he said, i wish there was a war. he was thinking, that is the only way i am going to rise. charlie: which is interesting because american history is about the presidents we most admire, they were commander of chiefs -- in chief ofs of war.

thomas: i grew up near mount vernon. one of the things we were talking about, what he did like stepping down. not running for a third term. i need to teach the country how to move beyond me. how to say goodbye. there are something poignant, watching this moment where hamilton, who looked up to so few, is looking up to washington. who has an idea of some thing so much grander. what does it mean to build a cathedral, something not completed for generations? someone who just wanted to have life around him. he tried to create life for the generations when beyond when he was going to be gone. charlie: he portrays the founding fathers as orphan sons and sometimes heady rivals

living at a moment of volatility and risk. what is interesting about american history, this musical shows it. for all these geniuses coming together it almost felt apart. feuds, accusations. colliding ambitions. lin-manuel: were really holds people together. once the war was over, it was more difficult. you have hamilton and jefferson, fundamentally different versions of what the country can be. those are the fights we are still having. thomas: what we believe in so deeply, finding these kinds of voices and celebrating these moments. the idea of us doing something, we talked about the costume

design. this is not a show with the waves and powder. nothing dusty. it had to feel and move like now, even though the costumes and clothing is very much then. the idea of introducing these stories, that blood to an audience today, again still grappling with things that feel in their history book, dead. but now for 2.5 hours in the theater, alive and vital. watching the show with high school kids, they are seeing some of their first shows ever. hearing that refrain. why wasn't i talked like this? charlie: ken burns, the film maker who did the film about lincoln among many others, said to me, he could never watch the scene of lincoln being assassinated without crying. it was so hard for him to come to grips with that.

was it hard for you to come to grips with hamilton and death? lin-manuel: yes and no. charlie: you knew it was your moment. lin-manuel: it was the last moment i wrote for the show. his sight of the dual before he gets shot. historians, four to 50 years, have been wondering why he shot his gun at the air. in my version, he absolutely did. i'm not saying historically that is what happened, but that is what i chose to run with. charlie: there are people who argue that point. lin-manuel: there are people who will argue any point. charlie: that appeal to you because it said something about the hamilton you imagined? lin-manuel: absolutely. the part that was difficult for me to write was, eliza's life

after hamilton. i burst into sobs with every couplet. my poor dog was whimpering. my wife was in the other room can i get you some water? she made her life so significant. she lived another 50 years. she met lincoln when he was a senator. she lived into the 1850's. charlie: she charged herself with his reputation. lin-manuel: the next presidents hated him. john quincy adams, son of the guy who hated her husband. she was she made it her mission to make sure he was remembered. charlie: was it his ideas or persona that those who hated him comehated? lin-manuel: i think it was a

little of both. he was used to being the smartest guy in the room. he just happened to be in the room with a bunch of other geniuses. there was arrogance. he was younger than all those guys. the arrogance that comes with team the young guy who thinks he knows everything. john adams was assessed with his perceived sexual licentiousness. i have never insulted and and immediately john adams talks about hamilton. we used to have a whole thing, a list of mean things. charlie: the line, son of a poor? -- whore? lin-manuel: his abundance stems from secretions he cannot find enough whores to draw off. we think it is that on crossfire. it is way worse.

charlie: you are moving it to broadway. thomas: we are going back to the richard rodgers, which is where we had the good fortune to do the last show. one of the things that is remarkable about this story, something that resonated with the two of us, the idea that broadway, streets wide enough for all of us. the show can exist across the street from phantom of the opera. so much of the foreground we stood upon, to try to gaze a little bit in the future. the parentage of our show. he talked about the vida -- "ev ita," "jesus christ superstar."

those of the things we were carrying around just like hamilton was carrying around the battles from 1066. william the conqueror. that is what informed his decisions. we are in our own way trying to honor that. the legacy of a group of people who learn from what came before and try to in some way involved an idea. charlie: is the celebratory? lin-manuel: i think so. the story of our country's founding is extraordinary. to tell it from the perspective of the guy not born here was my weight in. my parents were both born in the caribbean, puerto rico. my dad came at the same age as hamilton, not speaking english. that was our way into the

country. charlie: thank you for coming. hamilton is at the public theater through may 4 parade starts broadway previews in july and opening in august. it's a remarkable experience as so many of my colleagues have written. back in a moment. ♪

charlie: core of it all was an icon of american literature. -- glorifiedore vidal was an icon of american literature. he was a big win guest on this program -- frequent guest on this program. what would you do different than the life you have done? gore: i can't think of anything. i would give a little advice for those who worry about their place in the world. it is of no consequence what others think of you. it is what you think of them that matters. that is how you live your life. charlie: michael mewshaw has

written a book about him. it is called "sympathy for the devil: four decades of friendship with gore vidal." how did you meet? michael: a mutual friend gave me his number. this was in 19 75. i called him. i thought it was a roll of the dice. i said, i was there. he said, come down and have a drink. which certainly is not like the character one thinks of as being standoffish patrician, wrote. he said, come and have a drink. we had a drink. we hit it off. charlie: became instant friends. michael: i do not want to suggest he was an easy guy. he could be prickly. he was cool. he held himself aloof.

he liked to talk. charlie: he loved to talk. michael: he loved to talk. he was capable of listening and also capable of enormous generosity and hospitality. i don't like my chances if i had wound up in london colleen kingsley a miss or someone like that. i don't think he would have said, come over and have a drink. or norman mailer. charlie: how did this friendship evolve? michael: rome was a small city really. especially the ex-pat community. there were any number of artists and filmmakers who lived there. frequently they got together at gore's place. it was days after i met him that

i bumped into him at another function. our paths continue to cross. he found out i was reviewing tennessee williams's memoirs. he asked him to pass along the galleys. in those days, before instant communication and the internet. mail service. i had a galley and i reviewed it. charlie: did he have somebody wanting to review it or did he want to do it himself? michael: i think he could have picked his spot. great spot. i remember thinking, this is a little dicey. cornu tennessee very well. i thought you were supposed to ask and yourself when unity you knew the author or had association with him that might give you a conflict of interest. i thought, this is going to be a

valentine to tennessee. it was not. it was a very frank and forthright, interesting and intelligently written essay about the tsipras career. -- tennessee's career, what he did and did so well. but also why he failed to deal with a gasol is him -- alcoholism and success. gore was still going to the gym. the first night i met him, he talked about alcoholism being the plague of american literature. he named a number of writers whose work he felt was affected. he felt it was a terrible deleterious effect on tennessee and other people. charlie: what about hemingway? michael: hemingway, faulkner. he talked about their calls them.

-- alcoholism. he had a litany of writers he felt had been ruined by alcohol. at that time, he did not drink hard liquor. within a couple of years, to my surprise, he began drinking scotch and vodka. by the time he was in his mid-50's, he'd not just lost his fitness. he suffered what i think was a significant experience. he went into a time of depression which effectively lasted the rest of his life. at the age of 57, he told my wife that he wanted to commit suicide. this is a part of it vidal. people are aware he was wobbly and drinking too much. this had been coming on for a long time. it put me in mind of a quote

mailer made when hemingway committed suicide. many people felt hemingway had the trade his entire body of work. -- butetrayed his entire body of work. he had been viewed as a man of courage. mailer said, about hemingway, it revealed the level of anxiety and suicidal ideation he must have been living with for years. it is a tragedy it happen. in retrospect, it is heroic he was able to overcome it long enough. his knights must have been nightmarish. the smaller man probably would not have held up as well. viodal, the fact that he

continued to be productive. he continued to write and write well. that was a tribute to his will and inner strength. i don't see the fact that i write about this as in any way revealing something unflattering. charlie: have you received criticism on that level? michael: there have been people who say, we all get old and deteriorate. i would like to make it clear i was talking about him in his 50's and 60's. charlie: white he think he changed? michael: he was conflicted and ultimately unhappy. charlie: about? michael: you knew him, you dealt with him on air. there has never been a more self-possessed performer.

charlie: he turned out to be a good actor, too. michael: people forget that he not only wrote for the movies, he acted. he was a wonderful actor himself. he was the narrator of documentaries. he jokingly said, his memoir was going to be called an actor prepares. he called it a word no one will know about a life no one will know after they read it. the conflict was between his image and the reality of the man. it has been said, celebrity is a mask that eats the face. mailer said, any bebody who becomes famous at a young age

lives in the sarcophagus of his own image. or felt a prisoner of what he had created. the image he had created of himself. he never wanted to admit weakness, fear. emotions or feelings. any book i cite instants instance after instance in which he expresses emotion. feeling. and then takes it act by a making a wisecrack. he had a dog whom he loved dearly, who he called rat. he was very kind to guests we had invited to meet him. he talked to them patiently, a business couple. when we sat down to dinner he said, i would like to ask you a question.

they perked up. what do women think about in all intercourse -- anal intercourse? it was if he had to undercut this image of himself by saying something shocking. charlie: this is him talking about a writing a memoir. you say this is memoir and not biography because -- gore: because that is how the memory works. when you break your leg at 10 years old and you were 60 years old, this is an interesting thing. you don't remember the actual trauma. remember the -- you remember the last time you remember it. and that time you were remembering the previous time.

each time, it gets a bit altered. ultimately, your memory is just what you are left with. a whole series of layers. you see some things are true and some things cannot be true. i checked myself against these biographies. i read about myself and books. that spurs memory. i have to give my side of the case. charlie: jimmy trumbull. here we said, he had this great love affair with his young man. as i understand it, he was killed at you will jim a. -- iwo jima. there are others who say, that was not true. michael: it would be difficult to say. charlie: the love of his life. michael: i find it difficult to give complete credence to the

story. perhaps when he recollected it later it seems to have more significant than it did at the time. we are talking about a man who by the time he was 25, gore claimed to have sex with over 1000 men. this event that happened supposedly when he was in early adolescence, that it was the most significant thing that happened, it is hard for me to believe. also, gore was extremely open and conversation. with friends. guests about his sexuality. he would not mention this to his partner, howard, or two other friends until decades later strikes me as unusual. the other thing is, let's to be late for a moment they did have a kind of adolescent sex. to say, in your late 60's, this

was the most significant event of your life, the hinge of your life, it would be like philip roth saying, his life hinges on an affair he had with a girl when he was in junior high school. a true leader. charlie: everything he wrote about on sex goes back to that. michael: i don't think that was the case. later on, gore himself casted doubt on this. in the london sunday times, he said, i might have exaggerated. charlie: roll tape. gore: i don't know if i can make anyone immortal, but i can bring him back to life. i was getting reports from marines who served with him. talked to his mother, the girlfriend. i have brought a ghost back.

shall we: exorcism? i don't know. -- shall we call it exorcism? i don't know. charlie: you have never met anyone who made you feel the same way. reach this wholeness. gore: no. i come alike so many people, i was always a youth. i was into lust. really entangle men. charlie: you say that was the best part of it. gore: that is what i like, tennessee williams, jack kennedy, marlon brando. we are both promiscuous to a degree that is not possible in the age of aids. but we certainly were. it may have been the tension of the war. neither one of us were looking for completeness. we were looking for the excitement and adventure.

charlie: there is the thing about running for congress. if michael: he not only ran for congress he also ran for the senate in the 1980's. against jerry brown. he did a credible job in both cases. in his 60's, i can remember, a notable night. he said, he wished he was dead. i said, why? because he said he has never realized the dream of his life which was to become president. i said, would you really want to be president? living in washington in the kind of goldfish bowl that is? he said i would have simply had a marriage of convenience and a couple of kids like a lot of other senators. as a point out any book, there were other reasons -- as i point

out in the book, there were other reasons he was completely unelectable. he said whatever -- didn't want to kiss babies, much less people possibly behind. -- people's behind. i saw him at a fundraiser where he said, it is a pleasure to be in the people's republic. people laughed but i don't know how many contributions he got. charlie: here is mike wallace and gore by dell. -- vidal. gore: i cannot again to save your soul in the remaining seconds left to us. this country was a success because of cheap labor and cheap

energy. we are never going to have that again. we don't know how to adjust to this. we are going to have to have less gross national product, not more. we are headed for a complete economic crackup. mike: are you planning to spend your last days with us, or are you going to abandon us to our fate? gore: the idea that i am in a patriot, -- expatriot, is convenient for some, but i never have been one. as times get bad and i see darkness all around me disintegrating cities, i watch these frightened people who are getting scared, i would be inclined to return. if there is a disaster, then i have a part to play.

if the world is about to end, and the society as we have known it is cracking up, it is best to end your days on native ground. michael: he did have his finger on the number -- on the pulse of a number of situations. he predicted the downfall of the soviet union, saying, we were saying we were fighting an enemy not worth the attention we were paying to it. he had wonderful ideas. he was an intellectual on the european scale. you mentioned renard leavy. any different country, different society, he would be the kind of go-to guy you would feel obliged -- the new york times would want him to comment on the elections. the situation in africa, egypt, whatever.

one of his great regrets was he did not come that kind of guy. of course, no writer in america became that kind of person. charlie: he had lots of feuds. mailer, buckley. michael: he was not crazy about philip roth. charlie: because he thought he was better? michael: he was a competitive person. he was the mike tyson of literature. he wanted to be the baddest man on the planet. in many ways, he was. he was not afraid to create enemies. if it meant expressing his views as he saw them. he was not somebody who log rolled. he wasn't somebody who said, you invite me to your literary festival and i will invite you to mine. he was independent, feisty.

he could be generous and hospitable at the same time. he did what he wanted to do. the thing is gore never expected somebody to push back. or he seems to be surprised when people pushed back as hard as they did. when various personal enemies or institutional enemies responded. he was complicated in this way. he does deigned -- does isdained authority figures and fame, and yet he gloried in it.i saw him in los angeles and asked what his life was like. he said, it was dreadful. i would like to lead the revolution. he said, the big thing i do is i'm invited all the best dinner parties and impaired with -- am

paired with nancy reagan. he never seem to see any conflict in those two things. charlie: he described her as interesting and smart, a great dinner partner. michael: later head in his life, he did. if you go back to a review of their love story, he talked about her having cosmetic surgery. her mysterious disappearances into jack warner's trailer. but she forgave him because he was good company. he for gave her because she gave him the kind of attention he liked. charlie: one last clip from a conversation about his legacy. gore: i don't know that i'm really proud of anything.

charlie: you are not proud of anything? are gore: you never do it as well as you ought to. in my lifetime, i have made people look at sex and the american republic in new ways. ways they would not have. had i not been around. i have changed every now and then, the discourse. one silly example, 1968. conversations with william buckley at the conventions. the very first debate we had, 1968, the republican convention. i said there is no difference between the two parties. each is paid by the same people paid for. explosion. how could you say such a thing? hysteria on every side. hysteria is at home always there.

charlie: you mean it ricocheted all around. saying presidents are for sale and owned by corporate america. four: there is not one single major politician today who does not repeat what i said in 1968. there's fundamentally no difference between the two parties. michael: i think he was prophetic. what he says about his changing the discourse about sex is the case. much of what he had to say about his own sexuality has permeated through the culture. there is much greater acceptance of people, the differences. charlie: what is his best book? michael: i think his best work is contained in his essays. it is a wonderful novel with an

unreliable narrator. less a memoir than a wonderful re-creation of his life. charlie: his book is called "sympathy for the devil: four decades of friendship with gore vidal." thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

>> i am evander holyfield. with all due respect to mitt romney, stay away. ♪ mark: on the show tonight, bill de blasio says he will not run first, benghazi. we learned that the house investigation might not be released until next year, maybe before election day.