♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: you begin with a story from today's news -- two gunmen opened fire at the sight of a prophet mohamed cartoon drawing contest organized by the american freedom defense initiative, a new york-based group that uses the name stopped islamization of america. the shooters, elton simpson, and nadir soofi, were shot after wounding an unarmed officer. it has drawn comparisons to the attack at charlie hebdo earlier

this year. gunmen opened fire in response to prophet mohamed cartoons. 12 people were killed. the pen america center will honor charlie hebdo as part of its annual celebration of authors from around the world. this has ignited a controversy and several high-profile writers have withdrawn protest. two charlie hebdo centrist on us, gerard biard and jean-baptiste thorest. welcome. tell me about your reaction to what happened in texas. jean-baptiste thoret: to be honest i cannot imagine the kind of comparison you can make between charlie hebdo. there is nothing to do, no comparison. absolutely no comparison possible. there is the anti-islamic movement, very harsh movement.

you have the islamization of the u.s. it is absolutely not the same. the question of criticizing religion, catholic people, it has nothing to do with that. gerard biard: we do not organize contests. we just do our work. three comment on the news -- we comment on the news. this event, the host of this event, was garrett wilder a

famous very right politician from holland. a well-known racist. we are not racist. historically we are antiracist. from the 1960's to now it is one of our main issues. we fight racism and we have nothing to do with these people. charlie: we will talk about many things this evening, but where and how is charlie hebdo today? gerard biard: how is it? charlie: yes. gerard biard: it is, in a strange way, in good shape. we sold a lot of copies after the event. charlie: how many millions? gerard biard: 8 million copies.

jean-baptiste thoret: i think it is sort of recalled in the french press -- 8 million copies is huge. today, it is ok. but we have to rebuild. you have to find other ways find new writers, new cartoonists. it is a very special moment. charlie: what has been the consequences of the event beyond the human toll for france and paris? gerard biard: he felt -- we felt that people understood what we were doing each week in charlie

hebdo. what values we stand for. charlie: define those values. what are those values? gerard biard: freedom of expression. freedom of conscience. and what we call in france maybe it can be translated secularism. sorry for my accent. [laughter] charlie: i thank you for coming. we can understand. gerard biard: we became sort of a symbol. not only in france. all over the world. i think that is the reason why we are here. charlie: we will talk about the award and the reaction.

to see those people in the streets of paris on that day with political leaders upfront was a remarkable show. jean-baptiste thoret: i think there are two ways to see the event. 11 million people in the streets. of course, it is wonderful, as you are saying to see this stand. this kind of communion. they felt something important for them had been attacked a few days before. but it is important to say that not all french people were in the streets. it is important to celebrate.

they were not in the streets. at that moment, you had two frances. the france walking in the street on the 11th. and the french that were not in the streets. charlie: what is the importance of the french not in the streets? jean-baptiste thoret: that means for some people, and we have this debate since january 7, for some of this people we should not draw mohamed. maybe we go a little too far. it is interesting because that is the reality in france and elsewhere. people say it is ok, but you know, it is terrible. charlie: is any of this because of the values you are expressing

-- is there more vigorous debate of this kind in france than most places? the vigor of back and forth, pushing the envelope, if you know the expression of freedom of expression? jean-baptiste thoret: it is hard to say. we have this tradition in france. in some of the cartoons and covers of charlie hebdo we offend or shock people. elsewhere in the u.s., for example. we have a tradition of criticizing attacking the ideals. that is very important. never a particular person. that is very important. ideas, institution, left wing right wing, sports and religion. we have to say that on 500

covers between 2005 and 2015 just seven of 500 were about the profit -- prophet. charlie: where were you on the morning? gerard biard: on vacation fortunately. i was in london. a member of the staff who was not in the office called me. i was just doing my shopping. with my wife. and he phoned me and told me you know, i know you are not at work, but i must tell you there has been an attack, a deadly

attack at charlie hebdo. then it all began. my phone rang all the time. rang all the time. i had to know who was injured, who had been shot, who was dead. i did not manage to do it. my phone exploded. finally, i got to the french embassy. they bring us back in paris. only the evening we came back finally in paris, i knew who was injured who was still alive, and was dead. charlie: where were you?

jean-baptiste thoret: i was in paris. i was about to take the subway to go to the office. i was leaving the station, maybe 15 minutes. just before entering the subway station, i received the same thing. a lot of texts and messages. my phone rang. at the beginning, i thought it was something personal. when something bad is happening to you, you do not think right away. you do not think your job. you think something happened to your wife, your children. i understood very quickly that something happened to charlie hebdo. people ask me if i was ok, if i was there. charlie: there had been threats and an attack before. in some cases, there was police protection. jean-baptiste thoret: first of all, the former attacks were material.

the office and so on. never the people had been attacked. just material. maybe it is very hard to understand. all the people at charlie hebdo, especially the cartoonists, they are the main targets. because they do not really read the articles. they are upset with the images. you do not have to speak. the french language, to interpret the cartoon. we were all conscious of the question of security. when we are drawing, very light cartoons with little guys, you are not really prepared for the. -- jack -- that.

a lot of people tell you there are security issues, it can be dangerous, but the other half of your brain, you do not believe it could happen in this way. you say, we have security guards. we know people all over the world are excited by the cartoons, burning a flag. the cartoon seems such a little thing. charlie: was there much internal discussion about "crossing the line," when you might go too far? gerard biard: there is always a discussion when we choose the cover. we never choose the cover just like that. it is well discussed, debated. generally a collective decision. i do not decide this cartoon

will be on the cover. charlie: a collective decision. a vote? gerard biard: we do not have to vote. charlie: when you look back would you have done anything different? jean-baptiste thoret: of course not. this question of crossing the line or not is interesting because i think the line is inside you. did i write the right article? you can make of that cartoon. it happens all the time. but is it a reason to kill people? no. charlie: no one made that

argument. jean-baptiste thoret: of course. but the question of the line is important. it depends on you. that is very important. the line is something subjective. it is very hard to say i am crossing the line, not crossing the line. if you share what you are standing for it will be ok. ♪

charlie: gary trudeau, there have been criticisms of your pen award and support of it. gary trudeau that by attacking a minority with crude drawings charlie wandered into the realm of hate speech. this is gary trudeau. gerard biard: so what? the thing you have to have in mind is that we are not attacking weak people.

we attack states, powerful people huge institutions. we are not attacking muslims. we are attacking islamists. a political ideal. and this is -- charlie: making fun of the prophet? gerard biard: making fun of power. the prophet represents power. we attack the prophet like we

attack our president or an institution. we are not attacking citizens. a political party, not citizens. we are not attacking people. we are attacking ideas and institutions. charlie: this is from the pen executive director. from our perspective, the courage is central. the terrain of three speech cannot happen through the barrel of a gun. jean-baptiste thoret: it seems perfectly clear. maybe there is a misunderstanding confusion. this award is given for courage and principle of freedom of speech. but we embody that. vince january 7. this award is not for the content of charlie hebdo.

you can disagree with the content of articles. he often times, among ourselves criticize our colleagues. you have a lot of debate around cartoonists. we say all the content of charlie hebdo, all 16 pages of the magazine, we are supporting that. charlie: francine prose said, i was terrified by the murders at charlie hebdo office. i despise the use of violence as a mean of enforcing silence. charlie hebdo has every right to publish what they wish. but that is not the same as the feeling that charlie hebdo deserves an award. the first amendment right

guarantees the rights of neo-nazis to march, but we do not give them an for the work they have been done. though i admire the courage with which charlie hebdo has insisted on threat to provoke, i do not think there work has the importance or necessity that would deserve such an honor. this is getting to the award, which is different. giving the award is not about you and the issues of going too far. how would you define any limits with respect to islam and mohamed? was there a place where you discussed a cartoon or idea and said, that is not who we are, what we want to do? gerard biard: of course. there was a huge discussion when we published for the first time

mohamed cartoons, the danish cartoons in 2006. we published because one french newspaper called francois decided to publish them. the day after the cartoons were published, the editor in chief of this newspaper was fired. so we decided to publish this cartoon with an explanation. we did not publish this like that. ok, anyone sees what they want

to see. he explained. --we explained. we had to do that. we made the cover. it took hours to draw this cartoon. charlie: it took hours to drive? -- draw? the idea of the cartoon? gerard biard: yes. so we went with this cartoon to make a difference between islam and islamism. between people, between believers and political views of belief. charlie: do you believe that

believers, not islamists were offended? jean-baptiste thoret: all kinds of critics were offended. do you know a safe critic of politics, sports, religion? you always find someone who says, i am offended by what you say or what you wrote. if you are starting to think about the people which feel offended, you will stop writing, stop cartooning. this very famous cartoon now there was a caption -- it is

hard to be loved by people. that means we are not attacking muhammad islam. we are attacking a single use of the. -- that. charlie: for you, attacking islam is, your words, is no word -- different than attacking le pen. gerard biard: it is about politics, that is all. not religion. we do not care about religion to tell the truth. we care about political views of religion. because we think it is dangerous to use religion with political aims.

but that is it. charlie: that is not an opinion unique to you. a friend of mine named adam gopnik wrote in the new yorker, their work was not for those who like subtlety in satire. it was not entirely to my taste but they were radically democratic and egalitarian with their one dislike being the hypocrisies of organized religion. few groups in french history have been more passionately marginalized with the political establishment, more vitriolic in their mockery of power. they were always punching up at idols and authorities. no one in france has been more relentlessly, courageously

contemptuous of the right-wing lepens. jean-baptiste thoret: he is right, of course. the problem, you are attacking institutions, people who have power. maybe we are attacking people making discrimination. and we have a certain obsession about religion, sports. attacking soccer for example. charlie: you mean violence at soccer stadiums? jean-baptiste thoret: the principle of the sport we do not like at charlie hebdo. that is something that we share. charlie: what don't you like about it? gerard biard: in france, it is

iconic. jean-baptiste thoret: it is almost a religion. charlie: a religion? gerard biard: yes, religion. charlie: even the pope has spoken out against you. gerard biard: he is playing his role. charlie: an attack on one religion is an attack on another religion? an attack on people who want to hijack a religion? gerard biard: in a way. charlie: what does that have to do with the pope? can you attack them without attacking muhammad? gerard biard: muhammad is a

symbol, that is all. we also attacked jesus. we make more cartoons about jesus than we did about muhammad. charlie: what do you say about jesus? gerard biard: you do not want to know. charlie: alond is easy. jean-baptiste thoret: what does that mean, easy to attack? charlie: political figures, lepen. all politicians have in one way or another, an element of hypocrisy, of ego. jean-baptiste thoret: you have to consider for a satirist

magazine, there is nothing sacred. nothing is sacred. charlie: has this made you bolder? gerard biard: no. charlie: you were already bold? [laughter] gerard biard: what i am about to say is my own opinion. i do not think it is normal to be afraid of violence, of threatening. but it is natural. i do not think, in this case, it is the good answer because if you say, ok, i am afraid i stopped or a go lower -- i go

lower you send the wrong response to people who did that. you say to them, you are right to use violence. it works. you see? and so, they will use more violence. charlie: because violence has been used, it is no time to pull back and say we will not be silenced by violence. again -- gerard biard: it is my opinion. charlie: the pope said one cannot provoke, insult other people's faith, cannot make fun of faith. there is a limit. every religion has its dignity. freedom of expression has its limits. he responded by saying every time we draw cartoon of muhammad , every time we draw a cartoon of god we defend the freedom of

religion. god must not be a political or public figure. he must be a private figure. religion should not be a political argument. in the political arena, it becomes a totalitarian argument. democracy ensures peace. secularism allows all believers to live in peace. that is what we defend. gerard biard: if you see where religion and religious people are discriminated, are in jail are killed generally, it is in religious states. the only way to prevent this is secularism. secularism is the freedom of conscious -- conscience.

anyone can believe or not. charlie: are you surprised you are getting the pen award? a prestigious association of writers and publishers? are you surprised that 145 writers of the pen american center wrote this letter objecting -- it is clear that a murder of a dozen people is sickening and tragic. what is neither clear or inarguable is a decision for an award for freedom of expression. by honoring charlie hebdo pen is validating offensive material that intensifies anti-arab sentiments present in the western world. that is in the letter. do you have anything to say

about this controversy, about giving the award to you other than thank you? jean-baptiste thoret: we are always turning around the same issues and subjects. first of all, who decides the limit of freedom of speech? it is a very important question. and i think there is no answer or maybe just one. it is a question of intelligence. for me, the real issue is, are you intelligent enough decent to know what you are going to do? the limit is right here. maybe we could open a school where you can learn to interplay images. so many people see images and do not understand the context.

they do not make an effort to say, what is the cartoon about? if you do this work, this effort , you can see all the debate we have are useless. it is a question of intelligence. it is very. -- very important. charlie: you did have a cartoonist that said he would stop drawing mohamed cartoons in response. he was known as luz. he arrived see the bodies of his colleagues and later drew a scene that the magazine did not publish. gerard biard: it was not meant

to be published. charlie: an expression of his own? gerard biard: a catharsis. it was the first cartoon he drew after the slaughter. and he had to do it. he had to draw what he saw. charlie: thank you for coming here and sitting at this table. a pleasure to meet you. we will be right back. stay with us. ♪

♪ ♪ charlie: that was my stroke keith lockhart -- meastor keith lockhart in 1995. he has performed nearly 1700 times.

the boston pops is believed to be the most recorded orchestra in history. its mission is to provide audiences with the widest angle of what constitutes good music. this year, they celebrate keith lockhart 30th year at the podium. i am pleased to have him here for the first time. tell me what the boston pops is. keith lockhart: the boston pops is a 130-year-old american artist -- arts institution established to do something no other arts institution did in america, to spread the gospel of symphonic music. it was embedded from the beginning to play for a wider audience. charlie: it has had legendary conductors. keith lockhart: there have been

20 conductors, but only three since 1930. john williams. charlie: the great john williams. why music for you? keith lockhart: i grew up with the kind of parents who wanted to make sure i had the opportunities they had been denied. it was not an option that i would at least not have to explore these things. for some reason, it took. by the time i left high school i was so involved in music it was pretty much everything i knew. i did not have any role models. i was not going into the family business. i thought i was going to be a lawyer. it turned out i could not do that. and i ended up in something i have been blessed to make a living in. charlie: ken bringing you great joy. keith lockhart: what an amazing combination.

charlie: you had to have talent to be a good conductor. keith lockhart: every conductor starts life as a musician of some sort. instrumentalist, vocalist, i was a pianist. always enjoyed the process of assembly, putting things together. the coaching aspect. i use that analogy a lot. people do not know what a conductor does. that is the person who takes 80 talented individuals and make them work as a team. the same as a way the coach of a football team or -- would. charlie: people use being a symphonic conductor as bringing all the best elements at the right time together for a sound you are looking for. a general has to do that with his army. a coach has to do that with his basketball team.

and an orchestra conductor has to do that with his players. keith lockhart: it is a wonderful job, the opportunity to add new wants to something -- nuance to something already amazing while every player is busy with her specific role. saying, we need more of this less of this, slow it down here. it is greeting something greater than the sum of its parts. charlie: how did you get to be the conductor you are? keith lockhart: i do not know. as an undergrad, i was counseled by a teacher who did not want a mediocre pianist. you enjoy the teaching aspects and the analytical part of the job. i explored it a little bit and headed in that direction. i have been going in that direction ever since. charlie: great conductors have a great relationship with their orchestra.

they understand the talent, know how to meld the talent, give direction. keith lockhart: you have to know the individuals involved and how to get the best out of them. charlie: what part do you enjoy the most? keith lockhart: since i was a kid, and was not able to give voice to it, i have always been amazed by in motive, connective powers of music. they can bring people to tears without the benefit of language. the strong message that music provides. to be able to share that with people is really what performers do. there are two reasons to be a performer. what he gives to you and the chance to share this amazing thing. this huge part of my life, check this out. charlie: this is you conducting

the boston pops on july 4 2014 at the firework spectacular. this is from the ending of tchaikovsky's "1812 overture." here it is. ♪ ♪ charlie: explain to me. you will see me in action because i was invited to be a guest conductor with mike wallace. they did much better than i did. keith lockhart: that is how we

met. charlie: you are doing this then. both hands like this. when is it with that and when is it with the baton? keith lockhart: i have not used the baton in a decade. it is a traditional symbol of the conductor's office, and most conductors use of baton, but not all. there are wonderful conductors who have not. ice -- i stopped using it because i was having shoulder problems. repetitive motion sort of thing. i did not miss it when it was gone. i used one for the first 20 years of my career. it showed alice so far away from the orchestra. i was trying to hold these massive forces together in a live performance situation, where you go to the traffic cop heart of the job. charlie: i did not conduct.

i stood in front of the orchestra, and they led me. this during the 27th annual pops by the sea. the kennedys were there. people listen to great music conducted by keith. here is me in the role of play conductor. ♪ ♪

[applause] keith lockhart: bravo. charlie: so much fun. to be there and hear the music washing over you is really wonderful. keith lockhart: it is the best seat in the house. it is hard to stay on distracted by that amount of sound. just washing by you. eventually, you have to be the cause of tory force -- causatory for e. charlie: you said, just go up, down.

what does this season look like? keith lockhart: this season at symphony hall, it is one of the great boston rites of spring. it is my 20th anniversary season. we are opening with bernadette. an iconic broadway figure. she is always amazing on stage. i had a crush on her in the 70's. audrey mcdonald, maybe one of the most talented people i have ever been on the same stage with. we are presenting the music of the beatles slightly after the 50th anniversary of the british invasion. doing mad men concerts in tribute to america's love affair with the 1960's. we are doing concerts for the music of stephen sondheim.

sheryl crow a lot of interesting things. charlie: and the concert on the esplanade will be again this year. keith lockhart: we like to think of it as america's birthday concert. we have 60,000 people showing up to join us. charlie: how many? keith lockhart: 65,000. charlie: this was the first orchestra to make tchaikovsky's "1812 overture" a july 4 occasion. keith lockhart: it is our fault. it dates back to the mid-1970's. david fiedler asked, what is that peace with the canons and the overture? that should be a july 4 thing.

now people who do not have a sense of humor say it is a russian peace written about a victory over the french. charlie: are there other orchestras like the boston pops in other countries? keith lockhart: elements of. and certainly, the boston pops are based on european models. on the summer concerts and bierg artens of germany. i think the mix of things we do is probably unique. charlie: you have said that part of your job is to protect the tradition of live music. keith lockhart: i think, these days, every much -- every performing artist part of their job is to protect tradition and sell the concept. we live in an age where so many people get their entertainment and cultural information in increasingly insular pods.

the performing arts are about engaging the community and other people to experience art live. to be part of the performance. as you know in the web-based culture we live in, that is more and more out of fashion but absolute necessary for societal reasons and the survival of the arts. charlie: where does the funding come from? keith lockhart: the symphony of the boston pops are unique among orchestras in that we managed to do close to half of our income through ticket sales, earned income. the rest of the funding is from passionate individuals and corporations to make the community a better place. federal funding has never been a huge part of the arts scene in the u.s. as it is in europe. charlie: since you have been

there, how has it changed? keith lockhart: the easiest story to tell how much the world has changed in that period of time when i came to boston to take the podium in 1995, i did not have a cell phone or e-mail address. and i was not strained for not having those things. that tells something about how much our expectations have changed. another thing that has changed when i first came to boston, we were selling concerts on the model that arthur fiedler had. it was a terrell strip. -- tear off strip. we have much more discerning consumers these days. they want to know what they are getting for their money before they make a substantial investment. charlie: do you design for the boston pops the entire program?

keith lockhart: in generally, it is my responsibility for the programming. i have people that work with me to make the programs. the hyannis concert has gone on for years. it was founded by harry ellis dixon. interesting connections in massachusetts. so we work with them to determine something they think will play well for the audience. we had 15,000 people come together in this wonderful old-fashioned american scene with picnic blankets to hear some great music. charlie: you also conducted the bbc concert orchestra. keith lockhart: that is one of five orchestras that are employed by the bbc in the united kingdom. two in london.

this is one of london. the orchestra as many different things. i just finished a tour of the u.s. with them, 14 concerts in 21 days. classical symphonic repertoire. but this orchestra does much of the soundtracking for the bbc. frozen planet, blue planet, that is my orchestra. it meshed very well with the boston pops. and the commute between boston and london is not difficult. charlie: thank you for coming. much success this summer. it is great to be there. i would do anything to be back on stage. but it is really a lovely afternoon. keith lockhart: you should,. seriously. the best thing about having you there was the only people who failed doing that our people

that do not enjoy themselves. charlie: that is the test. i succeeded. thank you. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

>> bloomberg politics presents -- live at hamstead hall, it's buckaroo. the heaviest jamming, most ferocious licks and the wildest ripping. mike huckabee: our farmers and ranchers provide food and fiber. >> it all goes down at the university of arkansas community college. with special opening act tony orlando. ♪