announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. charlie: elizabeth holmes is here she is the founder and ceo of theranos. it is a blood analytics company that has developed a new approach to blood testing. these tests detect a number of conditions. her goal is to transform health care through prevention and early detection. she started the company in 2003 when she was 19. it is now valued at $9 billion. she is the youngest self-made female billionaire in the world. "time" magazine named her one of the most influential people in 2015. in may, she spoke to the

graduating class at pepperdine university. elizabeth: someone said to me, define what is nonnegotiable to you. what you are willing to fight for, die for, and most importantly, live for. for me, that nonnegotiable is our mission. realizing a change in the world and an industry that has stagnated for decades and resulted in so much loss and pain. a change that would mean that one day, people would not have to say goodbye too soon to those they love. i started theranos because i believe that building a business is a vehicle for making a difference in the world. you can do well by doing good. it is what i wanted to do with my time in our world. no matter what. charlie: i am pleased to have elizabeth holmes at this table.

welcome. we have been wanting you here for a while. elizabeth: so wonderful to be here. charlie: let's go back to this speech. tell me what the mission is. what does -- what can its impact be? elizabeth: our mission is to make actionable information accessible to every person at the time it matters. what it is about is realizing a world in which early detection and prevention become realities in our health care system. because if we can make it possible to see the onset of disease in time for therapy to be effective, we can change outcomes in the context of what we all know as reality today which is often, we find out someone we love is really sick when it is too late to do

something about it. in facilitating earlier intervention, we can change a significant amount of the cost structure in health care. charlie: there is a lot in what you just said. personalized medicine means you do not have to go to a lab to get these essential tests that can detect disease early so that you can treat it. elizabeth: yes. we are still a lab. it is about decentralizing and distributing access so that you can, for example, go into a local retail pharmacy and get access to this kind of information late at night or on a weekend as opposed to being very restricted as to when and where the information is built. -- information is available. charlie: the process is easier because you just prick your finger. you do not have the kind of blood tests that scare some people. elizabeth: myself included. we focus on smaller samples period.

for urine -- for blood, drops from a finger, we can take blood from the arm and take less blood than what would be required. charlie: it is less expensive. the results are quicker. if, in fact, it is widespread, you could have a huge impact on the health care system. elizabeth: that is our goal and our dream. charlie: how far along are you? elizabeth: we are just getting started. i've spent the last 12 years building the technology infrastructure and trying to do it in such a way in which it is truly scalable. now we have begun to apply it in such a way where we can serve individuals and physicians through transforming the cost of testing and accessibility through some of the things you have talked about and with our

recent work in changing the law in arizona to make possible for individuals to have the human rights to order lab tests directly to get information about themselves. we will just start to see a shift in the way in which this information can be used. charlie: not having to go through a physician? elizabeth: a whole series of protections in place around physician engagement. the purpose of getting someone to order a lab test directly is exactly to get them to engage with their physician. historically, there has been such liabilities that prohibit physicians from engaging with consumers on tests they do order. we created blank and protections for physicians around the ability -- blanket protections for physicians around the

ability to allow for a new partnership to be formed around individual and physician involvement in preventative testing. charlie: part of this is about process. it is also about science, i assume. you get the same result you get if you went to a doctor and had him take a vile of blood -- vial of blood. what are those results? elizabeth: they are lab results. in the same way you get a lab report from a traditional doctors visit and they tell you your cholesterol, your blood count, your glucose, it is the same type of report we are working to design in such a way individuals can better engage with it. our work as a lab has been being the first lab to advocate that every lab test we develop should

be submitted to the fda. lab tests have not been regulated by fda and that process allows us to demonstrate the comparison between the capillary samples so that we produce those reports, you are able to see identical results. charlie: do you want to share this process with everybody on the planet so that it can be applicable beyond theranos? elizabeth: we want to share the work, for sure. we are so still -- still so early in our own lifecycle. the goal is to get to a point where the technology is meaningful. charlie: are you a scientist or a technologist or an

entrepreneur? elizabeth: i was trained as an engineer and i like to think of myself as an engineer. but my time is spent on doing whatever it takes to realize this mission. charlie: 10 years out, you may be beyond blood testing. elizabeth: maybe. so far away right now. we are certainly already doing broader laboratory testing and we are really focused on ways in which we can build distributed care infrastructures to facilitate engagement with physicians. charlie: scaling is the most important thing to happen? elizabeth: scaling the right way? a high quality manner. our goal is to be able to help

give people access to information that they have not been able to access for all of the reasons before. person by person being able to realize an excellent and wonderful experience. as we have the infrastructure to support that -- charlie: primary growth in arizona? what is the plan for the united states? elizabeth: we will be expanding into more states from there. we have our one wellness center in palo alto right now. we want to increase our work in california. we are beginning to look at other metropolitan areas in which we can begin to establish a footprint. charlie: with the idea and the mission and the sense of, i'm a person who wants to make a difference, i see something i find unacceptable -- how do you

go from there to theranos? elizabeth: i believe we are here on this earth to make a difference in the world. when i found what i felt like i was born to do, which was to try to help contribute to solving a problem that i believe at a human level, -- charlie: that will save more lives. elizabeth: when you are talking about someone you love, you would do anything, right? to be able to solve that problem, it is the greatest contribution i can make with my life. i started spending all of my time thinking about it and i was not going to classes at stanford. i started when i was a freshman. i've begun training in chemical

and electrical engineering and i began designing systems i thought could better facilitate access to this kind of information. i found my first patent. i said, i will try to build it. i was spending 24/7 on it. we were paying so much money for stanford, it did not make sense to stay when i was not able to go to class. charlie: you have a board of directors in or mislead -- enormously respected. six or seven of them i know. where did that idea come from? i want people on this board who i know have superb judgment and can be of great counsel to me and can make a difference. second question, how do you convince them to serve on the board? elizabeth: that evolved.

for 10 years -- we did this work, we did not have a website, we never put out a press release. it was completely heads down. we'll me got to a point in which we realized that we were doing could begin to serve individuals and their physicians directly, i wanted to find the people i felt were strategically brilliant and could provide the kind of wisdom and insight -- how do we do this in such a way in which technology can truly serve as a tool for facilitating policy decisions? for example, we built medicare and medicaid for the first time at less than they are willing to pay. just through the act of us existing, those reimbursement rates will drop.

savings will come without having to raise taxes or cut programs. it is an example of the way technology can facilitate policy. charlie: back to the board of directors. you called henry kissinger or did one person act as a catalyst to assemble the rest of them? elizabeth: i met them individually over time. george is at stanford. he had written a book on health care with another person i know. i met him in that context. i had the privilege of being able to build a wonderful relationship. he got involved in the first meeting and i think he saw it as something that could be very meaningful in the context of what we are working to do in health care. person by person, i had the opportunity to meet these people and spend some time with them

and work with them and ask them to be part of this. they all are doing this because it is a mission that will have such enormous implications as it begins to be realized. ♪

charlie: how will this change position patient relationships? elizabeth: the goal is to facilitate earlier in the

disease progression process. charlie: not waiting for all of the symptoms to appear. elizabeth: people generally do not get lab tests reimbursed and paid for by insurance unless they are presenting with a symptom. payment is otherwise not justified. even then, 40 to 60% of americans do not go fulfill the requisitions to get the tests done because they cannot afford it or they are scared of needles or it is not convenient. by the time these diagnoses are happening, people are so far progressed it is difficult to change outcomes. if we can create a system in which we as a lab are designed to facilitate that engagement before you are really sick, we can begin to build a new era of partnership and prevention. charlie: what is the scientific

change that allows you to do this? what did you discover find create that enabled you to get the same results? elizabeth: many elements to it. one is, test by test redeveloping the chemistry used in the traditional laboratory framework to be able to work on smaller samples. another is having to redevelop the hardware the tests are run on. the software for automating laboratory processes is another. the collection process is another. and engineering question. we have invested in all of those areas because it is only when we can bring them all together that we can again to solve the kind of problems we want to solve. charlie: it is how ids -- ideas

are born, by asking questions. is there a better way to take blood? going out and figuring it out. if we had software or if we had chemistry that could analyze results in a quicker way and use less of the sample, that is progress. elizabeth: that is exactly right. that is the invention and innovation process. charlie: has anyone challenged the science of what you do? are there people who raise questions? elizabeth: the major lab companies. charlie: help me understand what they are asking and what your answer is to them. elizabeth: they -- we never talked about this work for a

long time. once -- charlie: because you were not there or you wanted to get established before you took on the world? elizabeth: we wanted to do it and then talk about it. so we did. the reason we talk about it now is because we want people to begin to understand they can engage with this information. and how transformative it can be. when we did start talking about it the response of the major lab companies was to say, we do not know how they are doing what they are doing. our position is, we do not think we need to explain ourselves to competitive companies. charlie: you have a protected by patent and all of that. obviously, competitive businesses always concerned about the ideas incorporated

into products. on the other hand, there is a necessity to make sure people understand that what you have done is truly revolutionary. elizabeth: we have a very comprehensive long-term plan for what we are trying to do. just because a lab company says, i want to know how we are doing what they are doing, that does not mean we will respond and say, ok, we will go through it. charlie: is there somewhere else people can go to and say here is a way to look at the results? here is a way you can be guaranteed this is a big deal. elizabeth: the first place for that is the fda. the fda will take years to thoroughly review a system, a platform, the test data.

you have to enroll all of these people. you have a chance to work with them constantly to make sure the data is right. there is no higher bar than them. that is the first thing. our position is, what is the best way we can provide that assurance and without question, especially when you are dealing with something like a test that is binary the fda is the gold standard for that. we will invest in that. we strongly believe that is the way to do this. the data is so important. with that decision, summaries will come out through the fda process. we think that is the right way for the information to come out. charlie: we decided to go this way rather than somehow creating some independent appraisal. it is in your interest to be

able to document results and new ideas. elizabeth: absolutely. we have no issues with any kind of independent appraisal process. as we build partnerships with centers of excellence hospital systems, that is part of what we are asking them to do. no laboratory has ever done publications around the integrity of their lab developed tests. charlie: some might suggest that you have, for the best of reasons created a company that produces something that can change health care. but your reason for doing this

is you want to be in the same way steve jobs was protective about the way he created. it was an open system within his products. this is a business decision as well as a transparency decision. elizabeth: without question, we are the first lab to publish on our website are data from the audit that we get as a lab. our scores turnaround time scores. that is all part of the transparency piece. we can talk about our performance and the accuracy of our tests that way. the timing for when we decide to disclose or pieces had to be part of a broader business plan. it should not be reactive. it will start with the fda and going through that process. charlie: how long will that take?

elizabeth: i'm the last person who should be predicting. we have had the privilege of -- charlie: what will they tell you? elizabeth: we have had the privilege of establishing a really good relationship there. charlie: don't they tell you there is no falsehood and advertising or communication? elizabeth: they do to really important things. they look at the integrity of the tests. and they look at the clinical use. they tell you the test performs this way in terms of its accuracy and precision. they say, it should be used this way. when you talk about individual engagement in the testing process, the piece that fda does, the clinical piece is central to the interpretation of the test results. that is what they do.

that is why we think it is so important. charlie: do you worry about -- from a competitive standpoint it might be competitive -- that there are people developing systems using new technologies that will eliminate a needle of any kind? perhaps you are doing that. elizabeth: this is the amazing thing about this country and silicon valley. the speed of innovation. you have to be on version 10 by the time anyone else is on version 1. charlie: we are looking into every possible way we can extract blood? the fastest, most convenient and painless way? if we can go a step further in terms of eliminating these needles, we will be there, too? elizabeth: only the paranoid

survive. a lot of truth to that. charlie: are you paranoid? elizabeth: probably one of the most paranoid people on the planet, absolutely. charlie: does what it means to make a different mean a lot to you personally? is there something within you, a beating heart that says, i have to find a place i can stand because i can't not do important things? im asking her you are. -- i am asking who you are. elizabeth: i grew up in a house of pictures of my dad in tough places in the world trying to take care of people as a disaster relief worker. i thought that was what i was going to do. if today were my last day on this earth and i could say that

the people who have never been able to afford the ability to give care to someone in their family now can't because of something we have done or the people who have gone through hell in just being able to get the test done now don't, i have done something in this world that has made it a little bit of a better place. charlie: does the business person and you care about -- in you care about how much you are worth? elizabeth: it is not what matters. what matters is, as we succeed being able to have the tool to reinvest and keep doing it and keep doing it more and better and less expensive and smaller samples. charlie: do you spend the amount

of time you do, the life you have is that work, the cut the work is so exciting and you feel like unless you are there, you may be missing something? whatever you are missing by having a larger life outside -- what satisfies you is being right there watching this baby of you grow. elizabeth: i have thought about it a lot. it is what i love. i love it more than anything else. it is what i want to spend all my time on. i have a very simple life, which is this work and my family. that makes it very easy to focus and go really deep and it becomes addictive. charlie: that is what they say. thank you for coming. elizabeth: wonderful to be here.

charlie: elizabeth holmes from theranos. stay with us. ♪

charlie: karl ove knausgaard, his six-volume autobiography series "my struggle" has become a literary event, a literary sensation.

james wood wrote in the "new yorker," there is something compelling about his book, even when i was bored, i was interested. i am pleased to have karl ove knausgaard at this table for the first time. i said to you, have you seen our program? we are seen in norway. you said, i don't watch much television. what do you do with your time? are you writing constantly? karl: i write a lot and i have four children. that is my life. writing and being with my family. charlie: are you surprised by what has happened? this is your life and your struggle. karl: absolutely shocked when this thing happened. i wrote it completely innocently for myself, by myself. charlie: what does that mean? karl: i was sitting in my own

room writing about my own life. i never thought anyone would be interested, not even my friends. i was in -- i was embarrassed when i gave it to my editor. the publishing house did not expect anything. it was a low print of the first edition. nobody thought anything would happen. charlie: one out of every 10 people in norway has read it. what is it? karl: i have no idea. it feels like -- there is a certain identification. there is a woman in san francisco that said, how do you manage to write about the indian american woman?

charlie: you were in my heart. karl: that has to do with my experience with this project. i have set out to find out who i am. how did i become the man i am? what is it to be someone? i thought i would be as private and intimate as i could and bs true as i could to myself -- and be as true as i could to myself. karl: i am writing things in there that i have not said to a single living person. i thought it was to private -- too private and personable and i thought there would be no recognition. but it does not work like that. we are much more alike than we

think we are. charlie: we have the same hopes and same fears. karl: in this book, i am writing how it is to be 17 and the feeling of being 17 is the same everywhere. those kinds of feelings i'm trying to capture in the book. the presence of the different ages. charlie: it says something about you and something about the reader. more about the reader that about you, i don't know. karl: i wrote fiction before and people could come over to me and talk about the book. it was always about the book and about literature. now people come over and they say one sentence about the book and they start to talk about themselves. i wrote about my father and he was about -- he was an alcoholic

and a lot of people come over and talk about their father being a napa holick. -- being an alcoholic. that is a dream for a writer. charlie: cathartic? karl: no. i was occupied with making novels of my own life. i was not interested -- it is not a therapeutic thing for me. charlie: you are interested in making a novel out of my own life, then not dealing with your own psyche? karl: not at all. charlie: what is the consequence of doing this other than being able to publish compelling reading for people around the world? karl: the consequences to me personally? charlie: is it a feeling of

success, accomplishment? karl: it is -- one major subject in this book self-hatred self-loathing. that is a big part of my life. i think that is one of the things i am looking for in my writing. charlie: to answer why? karl: i was 40 years old when i started to write this book. i had three beautiful children a beautiful wife, a beautiful house. it was like the talking heads song. i was not happy. i did not appreciate life. why? how did i get there? that is the question in the book. charlie: what was the answer?

why were you and happy? -- why were you unhappy? karl: when i wake up in the morning, every morning -- having this success does not help at all. all of those people are mistaken. this is something that is not true. very hard to take. karl: for someone who reads the book, will they understand why you were unhappy? have you accomplished that literary journey? karl:you wrote this because you were unhappy and you wanted to know why. the u.s. or the question why or do you put it down -- do you answer the question why? karl: i am interested in complexity. i am not interested in answers

or one sentence solutions. charlie: answers are not the opposite of complexity. answers can be complexity itself. it does not have to be simple. it is not like you're looking for a silver bullet that explains everything. karl: in my experience, it does not help to identify your problems. my father did this to me and so on and to diagnose your life does not help. this book is the opposite of that. it is trying to show the complexity of everything. charlie: why this title? karl: my original title -- this was also a book about longing. argentina -- i have never been there.

my editor said, we cannot do that. we do not want to go there. and i insisted. i am happy we did. in norway, if you say mein kampf people will think of this book . this book is the exact opposite of hitler's mein kampf. i had to read it because i used the title. a very important part of the book and i did move to that place because of the title. that is the way i work, by intuition.

charlie: are you fascinated, obsessed, or just curious about hitler? karl: i would not say obsessed. fascinated and interested yes. charlie: of his deeds? because he had some quality -- karl: this thing happened in europe germany and it was only two or three generations ago. this unbelievable thing. how could it happen? we define our culture against what happened there. a lot of things we cannot think or cannot do because of what happened. i started to read about him and i started to read mein kampf. charlie: what kind of book was

it? karl: mostly very boring. it is full of -- it is pathological. he writes very well about commercialism, propaganda, speech to givens people. to convince people. -- speech to convince people. when i am speaking there is so much power in that act, you know? charlie: did you see genius in

his book? karl: he is a poor writer. he got such bad reviews when he -- when it came out. some said it was the end of hitler's career. everyone was laughing at this book. it is amazing he managed to rise up after that and get to where he got. it is fascinating. you wonder, can it happen again? of course, it can happen again. charlie: how much of this is about your father? karl: he is the major character throughout the book from the very beginning to the very end. because of his death, one of the starting points i had. i wanted to write about him and

his death. i just continued to write. he is the most important character. now he has been dead for many years. i have dreams about him. i had one a few days ago. charlie: what did he say to you in the dream? karl: he did not say anything, he was just there. i realized when i wrote my first book, i was 29. my father died. i took my proofs around the time we buried him and i realized the book was meaningless. i wanted him to see me.

he is one of the reasons i was writing, i think. i do not know if this is terrible, the attention i am giving him. and then you become a father yourself and you have your father in mind all the time. such a major part of who you are. charlie: does your life deserve all of this attention you are giving it? karl: i think that the clue with this book, it is an ordinary life. nothing exceptional. i am not an exceptional person. everybody's life deserves this kind of attention. i have this idea of who i am and i started to write about it and i see this ocean of complexity and the richness of it all. i have this idea of who i was when i was 10.

i could see what it was to be 10, the sensation of being 10 and it is still inside of me. you get access to it through literature. charlie: get access? karl: to yourself. the lost eras in yourself. charlie: did you keep a diary? karl: i kept one in my early 20's, but i burnt it because i could not stand reading it, seeing myself. the same way with those books. i cannot read them. charlie: the argument with your character, with your performance, with your reason for being? karl: what do you mean? charlie: you said you get up

unhappy and this is about your life. do you not like your character? your values? the fact you have not done something you might have wanted to do? or is it about where i find myself in relationships, and work? karl: there are a lot of things i like in my life, but this is about shame. you should not think you are better than anything else. if you have it like that shame is a very effective way of controlling society. which is a good thing. if you get too much of it, the shame gets its own life. another reason for me to be a

writer, a way of escaping myself and escaping the shame. charlie: a way of defining yourself? karl: i am running away for myself. charlie: i still do not understand what the shame is about. karl: having no self-confidence. it is something that is established in childhood. i had a father who was very unpredictable and very angry with me for no reason. i could never know what was right or wrong. if you have that kind of background, you don't have any inner self and you let yourself be managed by other people, you know? what does he think of me? what does she think of me? that is how i live my life, try

to please everybody. except when i started to write this book. i did not want to please anyone. i just wanted to write, be completely alone, be completely free, away from all of this. charlie: working all the time is always a way to simplify life. karl: that sounds true, doesn't it? charlie: that is why we work. karl: i do work all the time. charlie: are you happy now? karl: i am not looking for happiness. occasionally, i unhappy.

charlie: that was not the intent of your life or the book, to be happy. what is the intent? karl: i want to raise my children functionally so i can be able to -- so they can be able to manage their own lives without being damaged. i want to write incredibly good novels. that is impossible, but that is what i want to do. that is much better than being happy. charlie: what is that process of getting to where you can write? karl: i think the idea is you should be free when you are writing. nothing should restrict you whatsoever. you have so many thoughts and so many ideas and you have to get all of these away to enter a place where you can just write.

i think reflection thinking that is enormously overestimated in our culture. so much of what you feel emotions, kind of ignored more or less. i am completely -- it is a good guideline. charlie: how much are you shaped by the country you are from? karl: a lot. we said this is a book about

identity and where you are from is important. i am from this family, and i am from this nation. i was born into that language and culture. i have learned everything in that culture. norway is a very important place for me. i moved from there when i was 30 and i thought i should never go back. i disliked everything that was norwegian. i lived in sweden. this massacre occurred there. all of my repertoires of feelings -- that is my identity. that is where i am from. charlie: you had to be there? karl: i had to be there, all of my attention was there. it was the first time i felt this is home. charlie: was that incident the

catalyst for you? karl: i was -- at least, it made me think a lot and write a lot. the thing was -- he killed 69 by shooting them one by one over and over. it was truly a massacre. charlie: did you come to some understanding of how that could happen? karl: so many elements. nothing to do with politics whatsoever. nothing to do with radicalism. charlie: even though he attributed it to politics.

karl: i could identify with some of his feelings. but then he stops -- then it stops. how is it possible? it happens. how can a young man do such a thing? he did not cry. a lot of people against the wall. they did not move. he said -- he did not know he was not in a film. it was like a game. he never realized it was real people.

the plan was to empty everything i had, nothing left. charlie: you were killing yourself by giving everything you had? karl: that was the plan. when i start again, there should be nothing. beginning from scratch. it is a destructive thing to give everything in your life away. charlie: is there a demand to write another book about your life post-book? karl: i have a lot of questions if i am going to do it. if i'm going to write a novel, it it should be completely different. charlie: not how you've changed it is looking deeply into your own soul which has made you successful. karl: i am not going there

again. it is hard to go there. charlie: the book is called "my struggle." thank you for coming. congratulations on what it has become. thank you for joining us, see you next time. ♪

emily: greece moves back to payment is a game of brinksmanship goes down to the wire. hold that thought, the imf says that rate rises should wait until the new year. paying the price. resolving the money laundering allegations. welcome to first up, i am angie lau coming to you live from the bloomberg asian headquarters.