al: i am al hunt. john: and i am john heilemann. " we"with all due respect, are getting our last here in cleveland. ♪ happy thursday, sports fans. in our lineup tonight, the suez canal gets an addition. but first, the republican debate. it is all about king trump and his subjects. we are here at the quicken loans arena -- outside of the arena,

actually -- and we are looking at the top 10 debaters and the seven who didn't make the top 10. al, the primetime debate, what are you focused on? it in someet's put perspective. this is not the super bowl, this is not even the playoffs. james, he isking johnny manziel. so let's just see what happens. john: whoa! is inam not sure that it anyone's interest -- john: you think donald trump going to be on his best behavior? al: i think that any of those nine others could attack him. john: we have some very interesting questions, but i am very interested in what jeb push

is going to do tonight. he is not the front runner. he has had a bad week or so. do you think any candidate could reclaim the mantle of leadership? do you think they could reclaim to be on par with donald trump and leave the other eight behind? al: he has not really just had a bad week, he has had a bad couple of months. he has to show who he is tonight, he has to show some personality again, and i think the guy is going to be attacking tonight. if there is anyone attacking, it is going to be ted cruz. john: you've got to keep all of those pearls of wisdom for yourself later on. all right, the primetime selection, as i said before, sometimes people think it is more important to be on the less crowded stage going in the debate that is happening right now. do you think it is better to be the undercard rather than the

main event? have on is what people the keyboard of what the main interest was, and fill in the blank, carly fiorina or bobby jindal, i don't think it really matters on whole lot, but first of all, john, there should not be an 18 person debate. john: i know you feel that way strongly, but i would like to say that it is the case that for all of these candidates who are well in the polls, what they want more than anything is exposure. so the only thing bigger than a bigger audience is a bigger debate. i think you could go to any strategist and ask them right now, would you switch places with someone in that primetime debate? they would all switch places if they could. unlike you, iut can't tell the difference between 3.4 or 3.3. doingi am not capable of

that, but uni are on the same plane. they should have two debates and draw straws. today, democratic national committee announced six debates for their party's nomination contest. candidates like bernie sanders and martin o'malley say it is not enough. that thens suggest democratic party machinery is protecting its front-runner, hillary clinton. how? they might have a point. i am notthey do, but sure we are going to see them pull up on the limit on these debates. bernie and martin and the others will say yes, and will hillary say no? i am not worried there will be too few debates. it is amazing to me that so far -- on a know we are just starting tonight -- but it is amazing to me so far that nothing has happened. the party has done a pretty good job, and i do think it is crazy,

that the democrats, even though they have a much smaller field, do not have a debate with her. i think it is a racket that they are protecting hillary clinton. c-span was a little bit of a break away the other day. there will be more than that. news, it is the 50th anniversary of the voting rights act. president obama said that there were two things of that kept people from historically voting, "nd on "the al sharpton show, there was a closely watched photo id law in texas, so al, i ask you, how big a political issue is the voting rights act going to be? al: it'll be a huge issue, it will energize some voters, i suppose, but it is a huge disgrace. whether it is young blacks or latinos who vote democratic or whether it is the elderly or some veterans, we ought to try

to do everything we can to increase the franchise. not limit it. a problem in america. not limit it. voting fraud is not a problem in america. ahn: if hillary clinton has problem with the democratic base, it is going to be enthusiasm. she has to get people out for the vote. she has to get enough of a share of the hispanic vote, she has to get enough of a share of the black vote. she has to get those raw numbers. she has to get people thinking about the voting rights act and people who are trying to take away that franchise from that particular democratic ace, i believe. al: i could not have said it bettwer myself. john: [laughter] have all kinds of

nicknames, after these words from our sponsors. ♪

♪ john: joining us now, for the pleasure of millions, alex wegner and republican oh --gists outcast jan alex. we have two alexes. g.: i am interested in between the dynamic between marco rubio and jeb --, i am interested in the phenomenon of 10 carson. carson.

least,hink last, but not i am interested in carly fiorina. i'm interested in what she will say about planned parenthood and reproductive rights. here,and the other alex what do you say? alex. g: you are playing to the crowd. have done a lot of campaigns and a lot of debates. what are you telling a candidate, any candidate on the issue, about what to do with donald trump? g.: anything with the hair. attack the hair. trump is nitroglycerin. he does not mean to go pick a fight with donald trump, he is better at this than you are, he of this, at the

end of the day, is a tv show. so leave him alone. the guys on top have nowhere to go but down. bottom, likehe chris christie, they can go after trump. they are one of the few. w.: when you walk by a pit bull, it is 50-50 that it is going to bark. alex c.: it is not that trump is not going to attack, it is his exquisite excuse, but it is the moderators. when that happens, the debates are out. it is strength. it is not about the singers, it is a moments, it about strength. john: but that is the question,

alex, your moment of strength is one of your themes. strengthe moments of right now is to stand up to donald trump, so how do you stand up to this moment of strength? how do you get out of the way? how do they do that? alex c.: when the debate gets look at these guys and you say, our country is going down the toilet, and one of these guys is against the other. let's remember that it is barack obama we are running against. don't poke donald trump in the eye. you don't need to do that. you won't live long. al.: go get 'em, al: i think you can divide this and the four caret grace -- four topgories, trump is in the category, but three of them have had a bad year. bad too, sol is

they need to come back and say, here is what i want. there are three on the right, carson, ted cruz, and jeb bush. so all of them have to smile and say that we want to go, and they have to make that case. alex w.: what happened to rand paul? donald trump happen to him and stole all of his oxygen. air left in theo room at all. likeon't defeat candidates that, you let them exhaust themselves. it take all of their heat that they generate and you use it to fuel your campaign. washington is killing us and we are all going to burn it down. let's talk specifically about how we are going to do it. take the ball and run with it. turn his anger into your

reaction. just really quickly, just name a game, but who'd you think is really going to pop up and impress someone? $12 white guys and one a sharp businesswoman who is going to kick them in the 12 white guys and one sharp businesswoman who is going to kick them in the coconuts? carly fiorina. stick around, thank you for spending time with us, and we will be back with a lot more debate night fun right after this. ♪

♪ joining us now are two of "the new york times's" finest and handsomest writers. they are wearing uniform blue

suits. mark from "the new york and then we have the majordomo of all political coverage. you guys are both really smart. is not a majordomo but ashley a minor -- actually a minordomo. >> i think they are going to use jeb as a punching bag. nobody is going to go after trump in a frontal way. they don't want to incur the wrath. think primetime debate, i it is hard to see that happening because you don't want to get that back and fourth. i think they're going to go after jeb in a way that will help them can feel -- help them appeal to a more conservative voters. are basically going

to give trump a pass and beat the hell out of jeb bush. if you are represent a by him, he is the opposite of most candidates. in iowa, people are saying, i am not going to be like jeb bush. alex: what mystifies me is that how badly jeb has been about answering questions about his family. the man cannot answer the traditional 1, 2, 3 of political questions. in some ways, i think the really heavy lifting is getting out of the bed, and i think there will be an unconscious voting in their minds. there, unless you completely blow up, is going to be a positive thing for most of the candidate. and usually the spin room is the most important place in the

world. this is where i think candidates will show up because i don't think they'll get the attraction that they will want to get. john: you have written about trump, as we all have, and he is the focus of our session. mark: he is a dear friend of mine. john: no respect. mark: i know him very well. john: if you were a campaign manager and you were talking to him tonight, mr. trump, with what would you say? conventional wisdom is counterintuitive, and i would say, mr. trump, you have got to behave yourself. you're going to get attention, but let's actually prove that you could be a solid, sober custodian of this. for saying that, i don't know if he can control himself for two hours. john: i saw jonathan twitch when you said that. jonathan: what is the goal?

i don't think he is going to do that unless you can tell me the goal. does he have a long-range play for whatever -- alex: don't you think -- john: do you think he wants to be president? this liket discovering somebody is really at clubwindsurfing med and they started because it was fun and now i am at center stage and mainstage of the republican party? john: and [indiscernible] there are 10 candidates on stage and it is going to move so fast and the moderators are going to want to move it along. it is good to be difficult for these candidates to pay attention. john: alex talked about it before about whether scott

walker can look presidential. with the walker campaign that that is what their main goal tonight is, is to look presidential? jonathan: i think it is undergirded by the fact that he talking about foreign policy and national security issues. i think scott walker is somebody who has to live up to his polling. he looks good on paper but he he hasreally prove that the capability of being the commander in chief and proving that his poll numbers are in fact an accurate tell of his strength. again, in some ways, i think he has gotten further out and faster than he thought he could ever be. john: you guys are fantastic. jonathan: who is better? alex: would you accept drinks at the bar? martin, mark,

thank you. we will be right back and -- back. alex: wow. john: so many. welcome to the dance. ♪

♪ any remotely sentiment being -- as any remotely senti sentient being- on planet earth knows, jon stewart is leaving "the daily show tonight." stewart leaves less as a funnyman and more as a political institution. political figures

and in doing so, became a political figure. news.mesis is fox fox news upon success also brought out the best and the worst in stewart. mock newt gingrich or donald rumsfeld, and it fell of political satire with a little more light. jon: how dare you sir? how dare you? how dare you ask about something ry as my three overlapping marriages. >> but he found his truest power as a broadcaster when fox news began to take off during the beginning of the iraq war. suddenly, stewart had a target.

i recommended that you only watch fox three tiny pinhole drilled into a piece of cardboard. if you watch fox, it will indelibly drill into your soul. [laughter] soon, he was mocking fox news more than he was mocking those in actual power. and fox news a loved punching him back. sewart stuart -- jon can't admit that he is a liberal mouthpiece. >> for a while, there was a very delightful back-and-forth between these media powers. it was hilarious. the point is you are right. it is a cause for celebration. >> but it may have elevated him to much. he began to use his power as the face of liberalism.

most famously, he had a rally to restore sanity in october 2010. get throughgoing to the darkness and back through the light. we have to work together, and the truth is, there will always be darkness. sometimes, the light at the end of the tunnel isn't the promised land. sometimes, it is just new jersey. [laughter] ernest, tear filled speech was about as far from politics as one could get. was a back-and-forth from the political world is that a virus bite from it. >> in his later years, he got a little nasty. >> you could see it start to wear on him. entityu are fighting an as powerful as fox news, it becomes increasingly difficult to tell who is winning. past 12 or 13

years, fox news and i have been having a fun, lighthearted, and i would say, an extremely productive conversation about which one of us is the bigger [blank]. ity, not surprisingly, think is me, where as i tend to lean to the idea that perhaps it is them. >> the humor has been less ly ideological. there is a constant fighting with fox news but now he is going out the way that he came in, just concentrating on the funny and a political way instead of being political in a funny way. still, in the end, fox news changed jon stewart more than jon sewart changed fox news. john: all right, we will be back

with two big-time strategists and two big-time candidates will be on the big-time stage shortly. ♪

john: it is a bonus half hour. live in cleveland for the republican debate. joining us is john weaver. and chris christie advisor mike duhain. both of your candidates were not at the top of the top 10, but both happy to a made on the main stage tonight. what is the biggest goal for tonight? >> we beat expectations to get here. every time john kasich has the time to tell his story about what he did in congress, helping to balance the federal budget,

it is a win-win for us. for the candidate with the .d. -- iame i expect to see the governor relaxed and telling his story of what he has done for this country. christie -- what is a win for him? >> he has no problem being himself. it is very early in the campaign. it is an opportunity for istie to talk about himself. he has laid out specific plans. john: take it away. al: what do you expect of donald trump today? mike: i have no idea. there are 10 people on the stage. for governor christie, it is about him and his vision. trump.ave not focused on

why worry about it? at the end of the day, this is a chance for john kasich to tell his story. john: it is one thing for you guys to say we are not totally focused on donald trump, but he might attack you, right? you do debate prep and one possibility is donald trump -- he attacks a lot of people. you are seeing both eager of your candidates are unprepared? >> i don't anticipate that. we are more prepared to tell are part of the story on moving the country forward. ke: thank you for bringing us on your show to call us disingenuous. -- all theut candidates have a chance to talk about themselves. we know it is a fascination of the media. as we said, it is a long way away. john: how do you feel about the dynamic of being up there with 10 people on the stage?

very limited time to tell your story. how do you break through the format problem and get across, get known? >> we take this one event at a time. and why you guys may think this is a very important event, we see it as an important night, but we are focused on new hampshire and iowa. we will do a good job tonight and get back to work tomorrow. : every candidate will have a chance this be tonight. they will all have 7, 9 minutes to tell their stories. we will see what happens. we cannot predict what other candidates are going to do. al: if you and john were to get together in a disingenuous cus, what would you tell him to do? mike: i think he is great. al: what would you tell mike? >> pretty much the same.

i know my guy in his guy will be themselves. al: can you contrast their records? >> not yet. mike: we will wait until they are on stage. were noth of you guys at the top of the top 10 but you are very focused on new hampshire. and then focused on iowa. without saying anything bad about chris christie, why is john kasich the best new hampshire candidate? >> i had experience, but i can tell you after having done 10 or 12 townhall meetings, his conversion rate because of his authenticity and his message on bringing the country forward, balancing the federal budget, resonates in new hampshire. we have a lot of work to do. we just got started in new hampshire. they have a great organization, but we are growing and we are confident we will do well. john: wise chris christie the

best candidate for new hampshire? mike: there are things that distinguish him. his record as the u.s. it turned attorney and being a chief executive and a governor of a blue state. it is different than other governors. having to work with and to opposition with the democratic legislation is good practice for washington. sununu inave johnson in new your camp. would he speak about his father? >> we are happy to have him. we cannot win the white house if we don't carry ohio as a party. if you look at what john kasich counties,86 of 88 that is selling with activists not just the new hampshire but around the country. al: how much time did you spend in iowa? mike: a fair amount of time in iowa.

we spent more time in new hampshire, but we will spend a good amount of time and i owa. john: when i saw chris christie up there, he was going to iowa and seeing u2. u2, iowach as he loves must be important. i have a question about trump, just a general question. two months ago, many people in thoughts this is this was a time-limited phenomenon. youhis point, thdo anticipate donald trump will be a factor when votes are cast in february? unpredictable,y as you know. peopleicipating a lot of

being in the race a lot longer because of campaign financial tools, etc. i think this is like a nascar race where people will stay much longer than they normally would. do you figure trump around for the long haul? mike: i don't know what is going to happen. he shot up really high in the polls. we saw that in 2012 and then people went down shortly after. this is an unpredictable race. probably the strongest field we have had. it is going to be very hard to predict. al: you have any idea of what jeb bush would do? mike: may have not told me. john: let me know. weaver,aine, john never disingenuous. always straightforward. conscientious. they are fantastic.

more guests coming up after this. ♪

john: joining me back here on the set is alex and kathleen parker and josh green from bloomberg politics. spent theave just last almost 40 minutes watching the debate going on as we literally speak. we will play some sound from an executive. i want to get your impressions on what is going on. josh: it is very odd. it is an empty debate hall. it seems to become a static and echoed. be.is a streaange vi carly fiorina is one person who stood out to me. she had sharp answers. rick perry made the point not to

he waskind of soniguy in the last debate and cannot on fire. john: kathleen? kathleen: what josh said. what is so odd is when the moderators were asking the questions, you can see all the empty seats behind them. it must be awful to be a candidate and be minimized by the environment itself. -- she is always better in debates. she is really good. she never hesitates. she is on her message every single time. she also looks fabulous today. i know that does not matter. john: that makes for a very good transition, but this debate is like a baseball game they play at camden yards where they had no fans. turned theld have lights out in the middle of the debate. john: let's take a look -- we

heard people say some nice things about carly fiorina. let's take a look at her right now going after donald trump, referring to the phone call the donald got from bill clinton. ms. fiorina: i did not get a phone call from bill clinton before i jump into the race. did any of you get a phone call from bill clinton? maybe it is because i never gave money to the foundation or donated to the wife's senate campaign. here is what i would ask donald trump -- he is the front runner right now. i think he has cap into an anger that people feel since he changed his mind on amnesty, health care and abortion. i would just ask what are the principles by which he will govern? alex, you were interested in carly fiorina. attack dog onn hillary clinton and apparently bill clinton throughout. and did you think of that

what do you think about her in general? alex: i secretly think the undercard race is a dust now. it is going to be hard to make the case that you deserve a second chance. i know that is not the conventional wisdom. i think carly fiorina could be an exemption because the gop wants her on the big debate stage. she is a woman and very youthful. she is incredibly tenacious and articulate and that is a real advantage. john: right now, i have to say i think that was the view a lot of people had early on with carly fiorina. she came out sort of strong, but what is weird is her numbers have not moved at all. when you say the gop wants her to be -- i'm curious your point of view. alex: my guys? john: y'all. why the you think carly has not

gotten more traction given all the things alex has said. 40%leen: the fact is only of likely republican voters know who she is. she is looking forward to this as an opportunity to introduce herself. of all the candidates in the debate, she will be the one who they remember. i did ask her that. what do you hope of people walking away? remembering. hopefully these things result in an impression rather than a firm understanding of policy. that woman can win. she can do this job and i kind of like her. john: do you have the suspicion that people have that they are running to be running mates? josh: i don't know why she is running. i don't know why as your running mate who would lay off 3000 workers. buthas a lot of baggage, she has put herself very well in this debate. not only has she been very put together and focused, but she

has done something all of these candidates have to do. she had a very effective attack on donald trump that was not hysterical. it was to the point. i think she is laying the groundwork for the kinds of things that will hurt trump. john: we have a clip now of rick perry, the guy on the bubble, almost made it into the primetime debate, just fell a little short. here on the undercard talking about ronald reagan and immigration. tiredrry: americans are of hearing this debate want to go to what are you going to do about illegal immigration? for 30 years, this country has all theted with that, way back to when ronald reagan sided piece of legislation that basically allowed for amnesty for over 4 million people and the border is still not secure. the american people are never going to trust washington and for good reason. john: so rick perry, right?

alex: i'm so glad we are talking about him. i have been waiting for this moment. i have to say i was not in the -- i'm nothe lessons sure. there was a dts about rick perry -- deep tease about rick perry finally doing it. graham whoad lindsey seemed like he was this lead. george pataki did not have much energy. rick perry and his body language and sharp rebuttal of the truck charge that he managed to secure the border. it shows more energy than anybody else. kathleen: he was the energizer bunny by comparison. john: when rick perry slipped out of the top 10, is there a

way back to the top tier for him.? kathleen: it will be very tough. what he was trying to do this time around was to redeem himself from the awful moment -- the oops thing. that is a terrible way to have your whole political life remembered. he has worked very hard to change everything about his image. i'm not even talking about the glasses. maybe he needs glasses. i need these to see, but they are cute. let's be clear. john: you should offer him a loan of your glasses. gohleen: for the people to and get up this be. to speed. he admits he was not ready last time. it must be disappointing for him

not to showcase that. kathleenh green, parker, thank you for that analysis on the undercard. we will be right back with the late-night action. ♪

al ande are back with ed, the campaign pollster for scott walker. thank you for coming on. starting with the most obvious question, what is scott walker's big objective tonight? do not tell me he wants to show america who he is. ed: he wants to show america who he is.

a very interesting poll came out that his name recognition is 52% compared to trump where it is 92%. getting those voters to know who we is, if we get that kind of ratio, that is what he want john: what is your donald trump strategy? ed: donald who? john: that is a strategy there. ignore donald trump? ed: i think the governor has repeatedly said his whole goal is to tell what he is for. i think he will do that tonight and take every opportunity to do that tonight. i think a lot of it is where he wants to take the country. that is going to be his message. donald is there or not. alex: how much is foreign policy been focused on?

ed: i think a lot has been overdone on that. you continue to get dealing daily briefings as the president. it is all part of being the national candidate running for president. you take a look at it. one of the things i find with scott walker is he wants to absorb that and then he wants to talk through it. he wants to see what people's reactions are. he has been spending as much time taking what he is looking at and going out there and talking about it and getting briefed. al: with all due respect, i don't think you quite answered john's question because donald trump really attacked scott walker. you must anticipate that possibility. how are you going to respond? ed: i would assume the governor would respond the same way he responded the last time which was you're using democrat talking points that work a year

ago. i got reelected since then and i would not have if it was true. he walked point by point through what really happened. al: i like that. the: to get trump off pedestal, to talk about all the democratic things? ed: there was no counter from trunk when we saimp when walkerd that. what walker said was true. alex: you think it is a line of offense? again, itcomes at us gives us an opportunity to tell our record. hunt's earlier taxonomy about the candidates, there is a group on the right, ted cruz, ben carson and then

governors like chris christie and john kasich -- a lot of people look at how scott walker has been running and think he is running in the previous group. he is actually running very far to the right. further to the right on social issues and immigration that he was as a governor. do you perceive your main competition being over on the right or the establishment governor bracket? ed: i disagree he is running further to the right. he is running as scott walker. if you look at his record in parenthood funding, abortion, a variety of different issues, he has always been very conservative. i think you have two candidates that up until now have appeal in all those different factions. one is rubio and the other is scott walker. that was verified in the poll today and they had a 38 net favorability rating. we just have to make sure more

hear from us. alex: how worried that scott walker could have those tweets? they are pretty dull. he tweeted about meatloaf. i agree. ed: one of the strengths of scott walker is he does not have to yell and scream. alex: my dad is from iowa. not midwestern boring. ed: that is your interpretation of it. al: i can second that. ed: one of the things that has happened with tweets -- they have moved from being a communication tool to a weapon. we are continuing to use it as a communication source and i think we will, boring or not. al: donald trump leads the polls but second and third -- scott

walker in jeb bush. and jeb bush. do you anticipate any contrast between jeb bush and walker tonight? polls,ng back to the donald trump obviously hates all polls. he loves the polls and hates the pollsters. the problem with all the national polls is they are: 100% onlye vot republicans when 20% vote in primaries. we're looking at the real numbers that are there. that is why you are seeing walker and bush doing better. al: on talking about the walker and bush contrast. we will have to leave it there. despite talking negative about me love you are meatloaf, your welcome back anytime. are welcome back anytime.

we will be right back. ♪

john: i had fun. we all had fun. we hope you had fun.

there is a ton of coverage on bloombergpolitics.com. episodesee our special at 8 p.m. eastern to preview the big show. until then, sayonara. ♪

announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin this evening with the iran nuclear deal. president obama made his case for it this morning as congress prepares to vote on the resolution by september 17. the president made his case at american university where jfk delivered a speech on nuclear diplomacy in 1963. president obama argued that failure to approve the deal would be a historic mistake. he presented it as a choice between war and diplomacy. president obama: i've had to make a lot of tough calls as president.