al: i am al hunt. john: and i am john heilemann. and "with all due respect," we stewart, tonight, we are getting our laughs here in the land. -- cleveland. ♪ john: happy thursday, sports fans. in our lineup tonight, the suez canal gets an addition. but first, the republican debate. tonight, it is all about king

trump and his subjects. we are here at the quicken loans arena -- outside of the arena, actually -- and we are looking at the top 10 debaters and the seven who didn't make the top 10. al, the primetime debate, what are you focused on? al: look, let's put it in some perspective. this is not the super bowl, this is not even the playoffs. trump is not king james, he is johnny manziel. so let's just see what happens. they all have an agenda. it's not going to be a free-for-all. john: i have only said, you're flash or style. you are focused on substance. focused on jeb bush. he has had a particularly bad time in the last week. he, i think, has more at stake than any other republican here

tonight. he has to try to reclaim some mojo. al: on the other hand, i think what bush has to do is the a serious person. that is the fpl. he can -- the appeal. he can get out of the slump. it's not going to catapult them anywhere. john: i will be interested to can break through in a way that registers with of voters or if it's all going to be trump-counter trump. al: i think it will be more the former. john kasich is playing on his own turf. it will be a pretty interesting story. john: if you are turning on the are late.ow, you you're late for a very important date. debate just ended, and one of the breakout stars was carly

fiorina. here she is. clintonina: hillary lies about benghazi, lies about e-mails, defense planned parenthood, and she is still her parties front runner. we need a nominee who is going punch.w every i am not a member of the political class. i am a conservative. i can win this job. i can do this job. we are going to talk about the undercard and everything else about debates over the course of the hour. the consensus deems to be that carly fiorina won the debate. what do you think about how she did? al: not much. for three months, we heard that she was about to take off because that is what the party wants.

you hear no talk at the grassroots about carly fiorina. she is a creature of the republican establishment and the press. i think it will have the same effect it has had the last three months. she has performed well and acquitted herself well. it is an interesting paradox. despite all the good performances she has given tonight a cattle calls, and now tonight on the debate stage, where she was very good compared to the rest of the crowd, she still is not moving or registering anywhere in the polls. it's a conundrum. al: she is also a failed ceo who was a totally failed candidate when she ran for the senate and test clobbered by barbara boxer. john: you are waging a one-man war on women. we are going to talk a lot more about the debates. but let's move on to our next topic. today, the democratic national

six debatesnounced for their party's nomination contest. candidates like bernie sanders and martin o'malley say it is not enough. republicans suggest that the democratic party machinery is protecting its front-runner, hillary clinton. al, do they have a point? alkyl: of course they do. -- al: of course they do. i am not worried there will be too few debates. john: they have kept an iron grip. democrats do not generally have anything like iron or a grip. i have to say, i think it is a clinton --k hillary for hillary clinton to want less

. she needs to have these debates. she has to get through this process. al: a gets you ready for a general election. she hasn't done anything in a years. you are right. that's the second time i have agreed with you. it's horrible. john: we will get to disagreement in a moment. i am sure. , it is thete news 50th anniversary of the voting rights act today. president obama said that there were two things of that kept people from historically voting, and on "the al sharpton show," there was a closely watched photo id law in texas, so al, i ask you, how big a political issue is the voting rights act going to be?

al: i think the democrats will use it to energize particularly african-american voters, some of whom a not be able to vote because of these restrictions. but apart from the politics, on the 50th anniversary, we ought to be expanding the franchise for african-americans, for youth, for veterans. this is a shameful exercise. voting, electronic voting, early voting, i am for all of it, but i think hillary clinton is playing a winning hand here. she is going to have a decent percentage of african-americans, hispanics, but she needs the turnout. she is not barack obama. she is not going to generate that kind of enthusiasm. right fork you are the third time.

get over it. john: coming up, the best moments from the debate, after these words from our sponsors.

♪ john: we are joined now i -- by some special guests. that undercarded while we were here on the air. what are the highlights? what did we miss? josh: i think we missed carly fiorina's coming out. she stood out, got all the attention.

i hustled into the press room after, and there was a stampede crushing fiorina. i think she is the story coming out of the first debate. john: alex, i think you think there is a different story. i feel that the story is ronald reagan. did you hear this gaffe? raven,rry said ronald not ronald reagan. he cannot afford another is moment. moment. john: rick perry seemed to have a small stroke the other day on a morning show when he was asked

a simple question and couldn't and her. -- answer. you, ronaldelling raven is trending. fiorinat's watch carly talking about the now famous bill clinton phone call. phone calldn't get a from bill clinton. did any of you? maybe because i didn't donate to foundation or his wife's senate campaign. donald trump is the front runner, and good for him. into anhe has tapped anger that people feel. since he has changed his mind on amnesty, health care, and abortion, i would ask what are the principles by which he would govern?

john: alex, how effective do you think that was? alex: i said carly fiorina was the one to watch, but there was church ladyightly about that delivery. i don't know if you get the reference. you are such young men. the sort of holier than thou rhetorical flourishes, i contrast this -- i shouldn't because i am a woman, but i contrasted to sarah palin. she is much more upbeat, much more gathering of the tribe. carly fiorina has a built-in negativity. it may be a problem. josh: she had the poise of a woman giving a presentation in a boardroom, which is what she has spent most of her career doing. : she fired people, that she got fired.

i just want to say it's been at least a hundred years since someone called ally young man. you could get a dinner out of that. a young man. you could get a dinner out of that. let's listen to the part about ronald raven's stance on immigration. rick perry: for 30 years, this country has been baited with that, all the way back to when ronald raven signed a piece of legislation that allowed amnesty for over 4 million people and the border is still not secure. the american people are never going to trust washington, d.c., and for good reason. john: ok, maybe for the first time ever, it turns out the twitter machine is right. how bad or good to you think that performance was? his firstwas just

gaffe, maybe not such a big deal, but rick perry, a great retail politician, is a terrible wholesale politician, and this is a wholesale election. : plus, he has practiced that line so many times. he flubbed it on stage. john: alex is ready to stick a fork in rick perry. lindsey graham talking about, what else? the clintons. lindsey graham: when hillary clinton tells you i have given you all the e-mails you need, that means she hasn't. are dying for a better america, you had better change course. the change represent we need. do we all agree that isis isn't the jv team? if i have to send more american troops to protect us here, i will do it. she will not.

john: did lindsey graham do anything in this debate to help his cause? josh: no, he didn't. he was a huge disappointment. bebig hope was that he would the fun, firecracker guy he sometimes is on "meet the press." he looks like he took the annex. x.hn: -- took xana the: i am not familiar with drugs of which you speak. alex: i interviewed him a few weeks ago and he was as candid and humorous as you would ever want a politician to be. not here. : i will tell you something else. substantively, hillary clinton and lindsey graham are crazy about each other. this is dirty politics. john: they love each other. you guys are all really fantastic.

josh, you have to go back in. alex, you are staying right here. and al is my buddy he was never leaving. we have a moment from the stage right after these words from our sponsors.

>> as bill said earlier, roby wade has been the law for years and we shouldn't change it, but we could defund planned parenthood and put a permanent ban on any taxpayer dollars ever being used to fund abortions. john: we are joined by that very man. he loves to debate. diet snapple iced

tea. former governor george pataki debateepped off the stage. how are you doing? governor pataki: you had a little trouble saying that, but i am doing great. al: he came for the snapple, not for you. john: how was it? governor pataki: i thought i would be nervous, but it was a privilege to have a chance to speak to the american people and let them know what your ideas are. john: was it at all weird to be debating in that hall? an empty arena? governor pataki: no, i am a governor in new york. [laughter] alex: has camaraderie emerged among undercard candidates? pataki: some of us. alex: governor jindal?

governor pataki: good guy. i like him very much. toald trump always used contribute to my campaign and say what a great governor i was until i said what he said about mexicans was ridiculous and a poor and. all of the sudden, i am the worst governor. but that's politics. al: everyone is saying carly fiorina was a smash hit. they have been saying that for three-month and nothing much has happened. was she a smash hit tonight? governor pataki: i think she did fine. she was a major executive of a major company and she's a woman who goes after hillary, and she can't be accused of engaging in a war on women. i think it's a positive. you don't think women can be accused of having a war on women if they support policies

that other women think are detrimental? -- you don'te war philosophically think women can wage war on other women? himge pataki: i don't think alex, that you can say a woman candidate somehow doesn't have -- i don't think, alex, that you can say a woman candidate -- how doesn't have alex: you are articulating what i think is a gop feeling. george pataki: whether you are a or man, what drives me nuts is dividing americans. middle-class, upper class, 1%. republicans are engaged in a war on women or we dislike blacks and immigrants. this is all politics. when you don't have a vision for the future, you try to divide and demonize. john: are you talking about donald trump?

party.ours is the john: how did you prepare for this? george pataki: i didn't prepare much. john: were you ask anything you were surprised by? first question to all of us was you seem pretty awful, why are you running?.com a little off guard. alex: are you feeling optimistic? a little offt me guard. alex: are you feeling optimistic? pataki: i am. what happening with donald trump, which is like a reality show gone bad, ultimately, people want someone who can bring the american people together. they are not going to want washington to be partisan undivided. they want a leader who can bring people together, and that's me. al: you were a successful

governor of a pretty blue state. no political, experience. donald trump, no political experience. ben carson, no political experience. is there a sense in politics experience doesn't matter? mr. pataki: no, there is a feeling that i have, which is that politics is out of control and doesn't reflect the american people. are notican people trusting of government andrdless of which party, so non-politicians have this enormous appeal, which i totally understand. ultimately, i think this is the presidency of the united states, the most important office in the country, if not the world. john: governor, we have a primetime debate coming up in about 35 minutes. countryublicans in the

will be watching. i assume you will be watching. pataki: i will. john: is there a tinge of envy in your eye? mr. pataki: it is disappointing to me, that the rules are what they are. you be looking for in this debate, just as a viewer and a spec tater? -- spectator? mr. pataki: they're going to be a lot of soundbites, a lot of rhetoric. but who has the ability to say how they are going to do it and if they can. i think the american people are tired of people saying what they are going to do and nothing changes. mysomeone says this is agenda and i can do it by bringing democrats and republicans together, that will impress me. tox: what is your message the host of the next debate as they figure out how to put this

?ield on stage mr. pataki: it was disappointing, because it's about name id, popularity, and as you are saying, a lot of people who have never held office. if lebron james had announced -- alex: he might. he might tonight. pataki: he would've been on the stage and donald trump would have been with me. alex: you would benefit from being on the main stage at the next date. i hope i am.nd you just keep making the case to the american people. we were hoping to hear you say governor pataki to foxnews -- rock dead. but we didn't hear you say that. ♪

>> we are all out of diet snapple iced tea. an hour.'s on for stick around and we will be right back with more debate, debate, debate live in cleveland, ohio. next. ♪

john: we are here in cleveland where the combatants will take their place in the quicken loans arena. mike do hang of the christian campaign and john weaver. we talked about what their candidates have to do on that debate stage. candidates were not at the top of the top 10. what is your guys biggest goal for tonight?

>> we beat expectations to get here. every time john kasich has the time to tell his story about what he did in congress, helping to balance the federal budget, it is a win-win for us. for the candidate with the lowest name i.d. -- i expect to see the governor relaxed and telling his story of what he has done for this country. john: chris christie -- what is a win for him? >> he has no problem being himself. it is very early in the campaign. it is an opportunity for governor christie to talk about himself. he has laid out specific plans. john: take it away. al: what do you expect of donald trump today? mike: i have no idea. there are 10 people on the stage. for governor christie, it is about him and his vision.

>> we have not focused on trump. why worry about it? at the end of the day, this is a chance for john kasich to tell his story. john: it is one thing for you guys to say we are not totally focused on donald trump, but he might attack you, right? you do debate prep and one possibility is donald trump -- he attacks a lot of people. you are seeing both eager of your candidates are unprepared? >> i don't anticipate that. we are more prepared to tell are part of the story on moving the country forward. mike: thank you for bringing us on your show to call us disingenuous. this is about -- all the candidates have a chance to talk about themselves. we know it is a fascination of the media. as we said, it is a long way away.

john: how do you feel about the dynamic of being up there with 10 people on the stage? very limited time to tell your story. how do you break through the format problem and get across, get known? >> we take this one event at a time. and why you guys may think this is a very important event, we see it as an important night, but we are focused on new hampshire and iowa. we will do a good job tonight and get back to work tomorrow. mike: every candidate will have a chance this be tonight. they will all have 7, 9 minutes to tell their stories. we will see what happens. we cannot predict what other candidates are going to do. al: if you and john were to get together in a disingenuous caucus, what would you tell him to do? mike: i think he is great. al: what would you tell mike?

>> pretty much the same. i know my guy in his guy will be themselves. al: can you contrast their records? >> not yet. mike: we will wait until they are on stage. john: both of you guys were not at the top of the top 10 but you are very focused on new hampshire. and then focused on iowa. without saying anything bad about chris christie, why is john kasich the best new hampshire candidate? >> i had experience, but i can tell you after having done 10 or 12 townhall meetings, his conversion rate because of his authenticity and his message on bringing the country forward, balancing the federal budget, resonates in new hampshire. we have a lot of work to do. we just got started in new hampshire. they have a great organization,

but we are growing and we are confident we will do well. john: wise chris christie the best candidate for new hampshire? mike: there are things that distinguish him. his record as the u.s. it turned attorney and being a chief executive and a governor of a blue state. it is different than other governors. having to work with and to opposition with the democratic legislation is good practice for washington. al: you have john sununu in your camp. would he speak about his father? >> we are happy to have him. we cannot win the white house if we don't carry ohio as a party. if you look at what john kasich has done, 86 of 88 counties, that is selling with activists not just the new hampshire but around the country.

al: how much time did you spend in iowa? mike: a fair amount of time in iowa. we spent more time in new hampshire, but we will spend a good amount of time and i owa. john: when i saw chris christie up there, he was going to iowa and seeing u2. for as much as he loves u2, iowa must be important. i have a question about trump, just a general question. two months ago, many people in politics thoughts this was a time-limited phenomenon. at this point, do you anticipate donald trump will be a factor when votes are cast in february?

>> it is totally unpredictable, as you know. i'm anticipating a lot of people being in the race a lot longer because of campaign financial tools, etc. i think this is like a nascar race where people will stay much longer than they normally would. john: do you figure trump around for the long haul? mike: i don't know what is going to happen. he shot up really high in the polls. we saw that in 2012 and then people went down shortly after. this is an unpredictable race. probably the strongest field we have had. it is going to be very hard to predict. al: you have any idea of what jeb bush would do? mike: may have not told me. john: let me know. mike duhaine, john weaver, never disingenuous.

always straightforward. conscientious. they are fantastic. we have two more guests coming up after this. ♪

john: jon stewart is leaving the daily show tonight after 16 years and the only appropriate way for us to celebrate is to ask the great will leach to take us to the classic battle that stewart waged seemingly endlessly. we are talking about john stuart ursus foxnews. >> john stuart is less of a

funny man and more of a political institution. a truth telling hero to the left and a smug new york liberal partisan hack to the right. stewart mocked political figures and became a political the gear. his old nemesis foxnews. ideological opposites but the success brought out the best and the worst in stewart. he could mock newt gingrich and bitelt like satire with a more bite. >> how dare you ask me about something as tawdry as my ?omewhat overlapping marriages i can't imagine possibly commenting on something like this given my dubious relationship with good governance. was oneruest power

foxnews begin to take off during the beginning of the iraq war. the concerted ideology and the television genius weaponize did. he had a target. >> you can't look directly at fox, it will indelibly burn your soul. the hot content to mocked and it was in enormously powerful target. he was mocking those actually in power. and foxnews loved punching stewart back. >> he says he is both liberal and fair. he gets his view from the left but can't admit he's a liberal mouthpiece. >> for a while, it was a delightful back-and-forth the between media entities and a peak of their powers. it was hilarious. >> you were right. it is newsworthy when fox is right. and cause for celebration.

his powers in use ways that were more overtly political than satirical. most famously with his rally to restore sanity in october of 2010. >> we are to get through the darkness and back into the light. we have to work together. and the truth is, there will always be darkness. and sometimes, the light at the end of the tunnel is not the promised land. sometimes, it's just new jersey. earnest tear filled speech was as far from political comedy as it gets. he felt more like a participant in the exhausting back and forth and ugly world of lyrical this horse -- political discourse. years, he got a little nasty and a little burned out. >> you can feel it start to wear

on him. >> when you fight an enemy as relentless and powerful, you needed as many resources and was become increasingly difficult to tell who was winning. to 15 years,st 12 foxnews and i have had a fun and lighthearted and extremely productive conversation about which one of us is the bigger [bleep]. they, perhaps not surprisingly, believe it is me. toward the idea that it is, perhaps, them. >> the humor has been less stifling than ideological. you can tell that stewart became exhausted by the political wars. the constant fighting with foxnews. he's going out the way he came in. concentrating on being funny in a political way rather than political in a funny way. in the end, foxnews changed john stuart more than john stewart

actually changed locks news. -- fox news. john: our thanks to our colleague and friend who is a genius and never more so than that. we have mr. o'donnell, miss wagner, and a chat with them after this. ♪

with alexre back wagner, republican strategist brett o'donnell. good to have you here for a couple reasons. you had a candidate on that

stage. you are one of the renowned experts. the debate trap in republican politics. we'll talk about some general things. lindsey graham you helped prepare for. kind of also consensus that he does not do that well. >> substantively, he had a really great debate. if you look at what he had to say about being commander-in-chief, i don't there is anyone else on the age that is his equal in terms of knowledge. john: it lacks some zip, since in. some zing. >> i don't think it takes away from the message, which is most of orton.

wasid you think it something he might be suffering from given the fact that he's the in public and is comfortable at the podium? president isr tough. and he's adjusting to this. anyone who does this for the first time, remember a lot of the folks on that stage have run for president before and have experienced. all, i think if you look at his message, he had a great message to deliver. john: a charming guy. is stiffose guys that on screen but when you meet him, he's great. >> tell us why he was so bad. >> i'm not going to do that. but i think he had a pretty good

funny line. he talked about hillary clinton and said that when bill says the meaning of "is" is. he went through a couple of days that were funny. i think he was trying to portray the one message which is that any candidate who is not willing to it knowledge that we need in that weack to iraq -- need to send troops back to iraq is not prepared to be commander-in-chief. this is tough stuff. i coach. those that can't do, teach. win the main fight tonight in just a matter of minutes? please don't say donald trump. tell us why. >> jeb bush. i think that he has a lot of pressure. the conversation with a donor. and how he handles trump will be

very telling about what he's made of as a candidate. i think that is what people are going to look at. i think scott walker has the pressure on as well. this trump thing has always been, for him, a quandary and an honor to -- opportunity. he can really rise to the occasion. do you generally agree with that point? >> there is a huge upside for the governor tonight if he handles trump properly. you try to counsel him to have a moment of strife? >> absolutely. has made a living of going after the governor. mainly governor bush. he has maligned his wife and he's maligned him. --trump attacks him

basically counterpunch trump and move him from the center of the stage. have gone through two hours of broadcast and not talk about chris christie or ted cruz. if you think of the likelihood of verbal debate attack, two months ago, it would have been those two. where are those two? in terms of aggression and response? the national journal has a great piece about his parliamentary college debate days. and chris christie has made a business of speaking as well. >> should they go on the offense tonight? your ownk you are at peril if you initiate and attack against trump. if it means you go on offense against governor bush or scott walker, that is another story. i think that is their job to have a moment where you seize the press's imagination.

it does not have to be at the expense of someone else. you get your message out. you mentioned college debate and you were a champion college debater -- >> college debate coach. still a champion, though. you helped john mccain, mitt romney, lots of others. if you look at the republican field and take lindsey graham out of the conversation. in terms of raw skill and if you were going to pick someone to be your pupil, because they would have a dominant force, who would that be? >> marco rubio. he is very well spoken, knowledgeable on issues. it is essential to go against hillary clinton. he is extremely talented. .ery coachable

people like him when he talks. >> the foxnews moderators have a very thin line. it could be an unwinnable situation. would your advice be to the moderators if you are coaching them? see their job as getting them to mix it up. and i think their job should be to get to know their positions or issues. the last debate was substantive edit did not start that way. there were a few questions that were demeaning, in my opinion. thesee you up on stage? are people of a congressman running for president of the united states. it's our business to find out what they stand for, why, and how to move the country forward. : these debates are

defined by big moments. you can try to script them and him times it works. humor is at the core of it. many politicians don't have that. they can't be funny. who has the humor gene? who can deliver a line that was sarcastic or honey in a way that would be deb is dating? -- devastating? >> mike huckabee has delivered some funny lines. chris christie is humorous, sometimes at his own it thence. which makes him -- own expense. which makes him human. john mccain talked about being all tied up during woodstock, that was the moment. they have to find a way to seize the imagination of the audience and the press. good and great man. it think you for spending time with us. even coach alex.

after the break, our last thought. we will be right back. ♪

john: ran for the white house once, ran for the senate once, have not held public office in years. failed to beat mitt romney for the domination. >> you called it quits. hillary clinton beat you by several points. if the people of louisiana are not satisfied, what makes you think the people of this nation would the? -- would be? >> has the moment passed? how can they trust you? >> is the iron lady comparison a stretch? john: ouch. ouch, ouch. will it be tougher on the main

stage? we will find out in just a minute. we cannot wait. we've had an incredible time in cleveland. --nks to our hunt and alex go ahead. >> namaste! and sayonara. ♪

announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin this evening with the iran nuclear deal. president obama made his case for it this morning as congress prepares to vote on the resolution by september 17. the president made his case at american university, where jfk delivered a speech on nuclear diplomacy in 1963. president obama argued that failure to approve the deal would be a historic mistake. he presented it as a choice between war and diplomacy. president obama: i've had to make a lot of tough calls as president.