(the lion sleeps tonight.) woman snoring take the roar out of snore. yet another innovation only at a sleep number store. john: i'm john heilemann. -- and i mark halperin. and with all due respect to rick perry, this one's for free. ♪ tonight, clinton, perry, paul, and cruise, but first, trump. as he leads the race, as we have seen, he dominates. hillarytalk about clinton. jeb bush plans to hit the big front runner in excerpts. he is quoted as saying isis grew while the united states disengaged and ignored the

threat. and where was secretary of state clinton in all of this? and yesterday, marco rubio was hillary clinton abortion even at the stage with an unborn child can feel pain. avoided awalker question about trump into an answer about hillary. all of this clinton bashing and the competition to be the best to do it actually got onto trumps radar at the debate. mr. trump: if hillary clinton is the candidate, i doubt that will be. hillary clinton lies about benghazi. she lies about e-mails. she is phil defending -- still the planning came -- planned parenthood. and she still the front runner. would like the best

hillary clinton attacker to be their nominee. so far in those examples, who is doing the best? john: undoubtedly, carly fiorina has been the strongest, most acerbic, most serrated edged attacker of hillary clinton. it has not made her a front runner, but it hasn't put your in -- but it has put her in contention in a way. walker, you saw the one-liner. like with a lot of things in the walker arsenal, it is a little bit wrote. passionate, but can't. wasink the rubio statement actually strong. it is an issue on which republicans had been on offense because of planned parenthood and hillary clinton came back after rubio came out against exceptions against -- against exceptions in abortion.

fighting for the middle instead of just the base. john: hillary clinton has been rampage this week. she targeted marco rubio on abortion yesterday. in a conference call with supporters today, his senior -- hillary clinton's senior policy to his type jeb bush brother through iraq. ms. clinton: you take somebody like governor walker of wisconsin, who seems to be delighting in cutting the investment in higher education in his state and making it more difficult for students to get scholarships or to pay off their debt. it sometimes feels as though we are in the general election the way this thing is going. walker defended himself on twitter and shot back with this.

stated, "i have frozen in tuition rates for four years while you charge colleges $225,000 just to show up." yesterday in taking on marco rubio the way she did. here she is taking on scott walker. mark: it is a conspiracy. clinton wants to talk about the leading republican candidate, not trump, not e-mails. on ank we will see this regular basis for the foreseeable future. john: in a normal five, she would be taking on her strongest challenger, but she sees no upside in attacking on that standard. mark: romney talked about barack obama. john: it is fascinating of the two people that each party does not want to talk about, donald trump and bernie sanders. mark: the good thing is that she

was not as strong yesterday -- the good thing for her is she agrees with bernie sanders on a lot of issues. it fires her up that she doesn't agree with republicans. has shifted some of -- campaign volunteers to his campaign staff to volunteer status. rand paul has been fighting a lot of bad headlines himself. his debate performance not as strong as he had hoped, and background in part of his campaign, not to mention the recent indictment of two of his campaign advisers. all are trying to run for president. this -- will we see anyone drop out before iowa? john: two or three months ago i would have said we will see everyone straight through iowa. and the presumption was that all

of these guys would be evil to raise enough money to get through iowa. but in the case of rick perry, he has not been able to necessarily. and for rand paul, money is really important. and there is not enough. mark: although perry super pac has millions of dollars in it. all you need are some plane tickets, going back to john isain in 2008, all you need plane tickets to show up on television shows. when and if they think donald trump has some sort of collapse, they will all be -- there will be a lot of instability in the race. even if you're not the mediated -- the immediate beneficiary, you could be the last one standing. ted cruz has been on a roll since the republican debate last week in cleveland. the crowd loved him. his campaign has been bragging about big crowds he's been getting on a bus trip through the south. and he's got a new tv ad running

in des moines, iowa. >> for a century americans have helped heal and care for those in need. america made the world better. how did america become a country that harvested organs from unborn children? and who has the money to stop it? ted cruz will defund planned parenthood. >> i'm ted cruz and i approve this message. john: is ted cruz in the top-tier candidate question mark and if not, -- in the top tier of candidates? and if not? -- and if not, what will you have to do to get there? mark: he has done well in three of the four states. he is positioned as someone who understands both the short

momentum game and a long-term delegate game. few are positioned as well as he is in those key areas. john: because of fundraising, he is certainly in the top-tier with fundraising. that is super important. this question of well -- how well super pac's will coordinate effectively with the campaign is still a huge question. and he will have to find someone from his party being the nominee. mark: coming up next, donald trump advisor and friend, roger stone. ♪

mark: our guest tonight is right -- mr. roger stone, a longtime advisor with donald trump. he left regularly working with the campaign. a lot of questions about your departure. we don't want to talk all that much about that, but i want to

clarify one thing. you have said and others have said speaking on your behalf that one reason you wanted to go is you thought it was wrong for mr. trump to be engaged in a fight with megan kelly and i he should be focusing on his message, and that other people in the campaign didn't see it that way. everyone i have talked to see that the way you see it and that mr. trump is alone on that. were you the lone voice? roger: i didn't hear any other voices, but i will not divulge information. i have a confidentiality agreement. advice to mr. trump will remain private. i have said that i thought it was a distraction, the back and forth. from reporting, i have seen that the responsibility for that is with donald trump. roger: i'm not sure how i heard

anyone else giving him advice on it being a good idea, let alone my own advice. getting people to latch onto him with memorable phrases. i think that is what has gotten trump to where he is in the polls and what he needs to return to. i think he was ill served by whoever leaked the fact that he had a conversation with former president bill clinton, which was a private conversation. i don't believe it was political, but i don't know. bill loves politics and cannot help but give you his two cents in the weather you want it or not. i do recall three years ago -- his two cents, whether you want it or not. i do recall three years ago money was thinking of running, bill said you should run as an independent and people are ready for it. he reject that advice. primary voters,

bill clinton is the devil and he gives rise to all kinds of crazy conspiracy theories. nobody maneuvers trump, i assure you. you were paying not an advisor to donald trump anymore, but a supporter. i know you are confident that there is a way in which he can win the republican nomination. can he win with the team he currently has? or does he need to change at the team and hire more people like you? roger: he needs to expand the team. he's got some very good people, like my gloucester. -- mike glassner. he has one of the best rolodex is in the republican party because of his long service to my political mentor, bob dole. the first job i had in d.c. was working for bob dole on capitol hill. is ank my gloucester example -- mike glassner is an example of the kind of person he needs.

but it's got to be a bigger operation. just the challenge of getting on the ballot in all 50 states, so if you are lucky and you strike fire in one of the early primaries you are in a position to capitalize on it. otherwise you end up like gary hart, you are hot my but no place to go. john: do you have specific recommendations? beer: if i did, they will private between us. i'm not an employment agency. mark: you worked for ronald reagan and usually before we started that you flew up to plane.n mr. trump on his roger: the new york ballot process was far more onerous than it is now. mark: you have been involved in politics for a long time. let's say, mr. trump starts to do better or begins to be more solid in the polls, can he win iowa and new hampshire? he needsrtainly, that

to stick to the message that has already gotten him where he is in the polls. most pundits said this was not -- that he would not really run, that this was all it was these that -- a global three stunt. they've been proven wrong. -- they've all said it was a publicity stunt. they been proven wrong. it turns out that jeb bush files for extension and trump files on time in full disclosure. wrongndits have been about him. he is a larger-than-life figure. his greatest ability is to get everyone's attention. the question is what he does with that attention when he gets it. is,: whatever his net worth he claims about $10 billion. others say about $5 billion. whatever it is, let's say he is liquid of the $3 billion or so. willingnessn of a to spend that cash on the campaign? roger: you could argue on the

one hand that you have to spend $100 million or you cannot do this as a free media exercise. on the other hand, conventional wisdom proves again that is exactly what he is doing. based not spent that much on the last report i saw, but he's leading in the polls. there will come a day when he is facing paid television advertising. if you look at the survey research in all of these polls where he has performed extremely well, his greatest gains were among those between 59-70. and particularly in the south. those are the people in the house in the summer time watching television. so when jeb bush unloads his dirty wall street money in negative advertising, or one of the other candidates, who knows, he will have to do something. mark: you mentioned jeb bush. who could win the nomination at this point question mark could have a bb nominated? ted cruz?

? rand paul could be. mark: it is wide open. ataki? -- p roger: let's not go crazy. john: it donald trump were hit among thoseay, who people you just mentioned would be in the best position to inherit his support? roger: if you look at both public and private surveys, the top percentage of supporters tend to be ted cruz, rand paul. very little crossover with those like chris christie or jeb bush. ,hat is very interesting is trunk, the non-politician, a lot of his second choice voters go to ben carson, the non-politician. those are the two standouts in

this case, the two guys you are not career politicians. and: the businessman surgeon. more from our sponsors -- we will have more after this word from our sponsors. ♪

mark: we are back with roger stone. formerly of the trunk campaign. let me ask you this first question. who does he listen to? does he listen to his family, his wife? roger: i think he definitely listens to his wife. she is a terrific versant, speaks seven languages, a terrific mother, and a strong supporter and very much in favor of this candidacy. i think it was a deciding factor. you talk aboutd, saving the country and the direction of the country, maybe you should run. john: when was that? roger: the beginning of the year. she is very solid. john: does he take political

advice from a vodka ivanka? roger: i can't speak to that. he respects her and she respect him. john: how is he different than the other candidates you have worked with? roger: he's a reader, a severe, and thinks about things. and he thinks about things. but he doesn't have a bunch of cronies. i think he values the mayor's opinion, but trump is very much his own man. he's unscripted, uncoached, unhandled. he makes the decisions. he will consider anything you want to tell him. he's very accessible, but very much his own man. mark: i'm not asking you to -- orize him or phrase in

phrasing him because you've known him for so long. i have people describe him as the nicest person they've ever met. but at times he lashes out at people with a for a city that is quite striking. how do you explain begin and yang of that? yin and yangthe of that? roger: first, he loves people. mark: how do you go from that to "you are a jerk"? roger: it is a donkey. world. one of his maxims i agree with is, if some -- it is a dog eat dog world. one of his maxims i agree with it, if someone hits you hard, hitting back. -- hit him back. this is a different realm, and i think he will realize that over time. john: he is prone to the lience and hebu

sometimes says things that are not true. he said the gdp was below zero. and he exaggerates a little bit. if there were 5000 people in the room, it was 15,000. and there is always the biggest crowd that has ever been in any given place. for most politicians, they would be called out for that and it would be a problem for their credibility. can he just keep doing that, and if so, how long will he get away with it? roger: first of all, he is a good salesman. wereanyone care if they 800 people at the rally, or 1500? john: people cared when al gore said things like that. never donald trump has said he invented the internet. said things like this over and over again and it

part of his self-promotion to bethany. will that become a problem for him? or will he escape half it -- skate? roger: passed itroger: i think he will move past it. needs athe country cheerleader, a salesman, someone will lead. that is the problem with jeb bush. the guys a stiff. one of the times i heard him expressed doubt about anything is when john and i interviewed him a couple of months ago and we asked if he would stay in the race until the end and he says, if i'm not doing well, maybe i will get out. will you stay in now? roger: he is not of full and he will not throw money -- good money after bad. mark: some people say, i'm going to be the next president of the

united states. other people say, we will see. where is he? roger: at the time i resigned come and i did resign, he was optimistic. think he sees the big picture. i think he is very optimistic. he is going very well. he has yet to spend one dollar on paid media. possible your free media coverage will drop off. and i was completely wrong about that. the conventional rules of politics, so far at least, do not apply to donald trump. john: i know you think he should threaten to possibly run as an independent candidate in order to keep leverage against the -- republican establishment. roger: the new york times

reported that the other three candidates considered boycotting if mr. trump was there. he said over and over again on the stump, if he's given a fair shot and has a level playing field and the establishment doesn't try to gang up on him, of course he wants to run as a republican. he is the front runner right now. but i wouldn't give up on that leverage, because i think there is a war within the rnc. the ruling class is picking their pants here. this guy is a challenge to the two-party duopoly that is running the government. john: now that we have you stroking your chin and talking about urination, that brings this to a close. thank you, roger stone. we will be right back. ♪

john: when i was talking about

donald trump's misstatement i made one of my own. he said there was no chevys in china, but then corrected it. mark: thanks for watching. sayonara. ♪

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