♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. charlie: alexander hamilton is the unlikely founding father who wrote his way into the pages of early american history. get a roosevelt called him the most brilliant statesman ever lifted he is the subject of the musical which opened this week on broadway to rave reviews. writer and composer takes hamilton's legacy to new heights due to hip-hop, r&b, and rap music. he calls the play the story of america then told by america now. here is a look. ♪

charlie: i spoke to actor leslie odom junior. what brought you to hamilton? leslie: i was invited. sometimes you find the best jobs

in this business you didn't audition for, you have no idea how you got there. i just asked tommy last week -- i have a superstition, i don't want to ask how it came about. i'm afraid they may realize, why did we ask this guy? i did get invited two years ago to do a reading of the show and i had seen it at vassar. i had seen them do half an hour of the show at music stands and was blown away. when i was invited to do the reading, i prepared like i had never prepared before. i came out and knew all my music.

i knew what they were working on. it had powerful potential. i knew how it affected me. this is our music. i recognized the rhythms and the syncopation, and the pulse of the piece. it has been in my ear since i was born. wondered when hip-hop would come to broadway, because rock came to broadway. leslie: lin was influential in that as well, in the heights. i remember listening to in the heights, i listened to it before i saw it. there was something about that first moment of that album. the need to communicate is something that has always moved me greatly.

i remember i saw a show called deaf poetry jam. they put the pen down to the paper and there is an urgency and a fire in their belly for you to get it. it came full circle when i was listening to a rehearsal of hamilton, learning my part. i said we sound like that. i can hear that need in what we are doing. charlie: i hear all the desire, all the energy, all the preparation to do justice. how much of it was important to know aaron burr? hamilton has a larger role but

burr is continuity. leslie: fans will bring us books. they will find articles on ebay. they come by with these articles they order and these books they order, and those have helped me a lot. i would not call myself a historian by any means. lin has read enough about all the different people and the events surrounding it that he has been able to come up with his own opinion on the events. that is what makes a historian. that's the only opinion you have. i have read enough on burr noun now to come up with my own theories. charlie: there are different opinions on aaron burr. leslie: i have to play what lin wrote.

charlie: you have to pour in to what he has written what you experienced and what you feel. leslie: that's my job as a performer. this has intersected. it has come at the right point. there is a certain amount of vulnerability this show requires that i was not ready to embrace at any other moment in my life. there is a certain amount of honesty that if i am doing my job right i am bringing to the stage every night. that comes with time. charlie: tell me who aaron burr was. leslie: quite simply he was a soldier, a father, a husband, a lover, a friend, a murderer, a politician.

i think he was all of those things. like all of us, when people say who is the person you want to have dinner with, living or dead, besides charlie rose i say aaron burr. just have him at this table to ask -- especially our show is looking back. it is after all of that stuff has happened. what have you learned? charlie: he had an interesting life after killing hamilton. it ruined his life. charlie: it ruins his lyrical life, but he had been vice president. and then he fled the east coast. was indicted for treason. leslie: he had one daughter.

he loved her very much. she died. after the death of his only grandchild -- his grandson died and he invited theodosia to stay for a while, and she died on the ship. died completely alone. he did have friends. there were people who supported him because the man he showed himself to be throughout his life to his friends. he had friends in the war. people saw acts of her rogues heroics that endeared them to him all the days of his life. charlie: moments of heroism? he's intertwined with hamilton. we see that in the play. they are connected. what was their relationship? leslie: they came up together and they ran the same circles

together. they tried cases as lawyers together. they fought in the war together. i think of them as friends. if you would have told them when they were 19 years old, if you would have shown them a picture that this is going to be you in your early 40's, they never would have believed it. charlie: this play, it is changing the american musical theater. it is a significant evolution. this is seen more than simply as a successful musical. it has been given the heavy weight of a cultural moment -- leslie: i'm not a spiritual guy too. this work is emotional, it is a spiritual component for me.

i have seen it from the inside. there is a great deal of it that those guys, andy, tommy, lin, have planned within an inch of its life. those guys are meticulous. we were so happy it opened because it forced them to put their pencils down. they will keep perfecting it until somebody forces them. there is also the part they had nothing to do with. there is something else. charlie: what is that? leslie: it's the space between you and i. it's whatever happens between me saying it on stage and how it affects you, and what it does to you. that is the part that none of us have any control over. none. you couldn't pay jimmy fallon to go see our show and talk about our show the way he did the next night.

you can't pay for that. i hope that the audience comes and feels like their presence is vital. charlie: earlier we talked to the writer, composer, and start of hamilton, lin-manual miranda. kale.ts director, kal thomas here's a look at that conversation. >> you have the wildest dreams of versions on how the show will be received. we are experiencing that and just trying to hang on while we can. i started writing this in 2008 when i was still in my show, "in the heights." i picked up his book at random at borders. charlie: you sought there and said i will take this one? lin: i knew it was going to have a banging ending. he died in a duel. i fell in love with the story. the dickensian nature, almost from the first chapter. charlie: you would say dickens.

what is the dickensian aspect of his life? lin: alexander hamilton was born possibly out of wedlock. his father split by the time he was 10 years old. his mother died in bed with him a few short years later. he got sent to live with his cousin after his mother's death. the cousin killed himself. then he got put in charge of a trading charter. he was a clerk for a company that traded sugarcane and rome, rum and slaves the key point of , the triangle trade down there. and he rode his way off the island. it was a hurricane that ravaged. he wrote a poem. this poem was used for relief efforts for the island, and people took up a fund to get him in education.

charlie: we have a character, who is a great american. we know there is drama, he dies at the end of a duel, which he may not have in fact fired his gun. lots of different speculation about that. here we have that story, but here you have translated it into so much more. tell me about the ideas you want pour into this to make it a new look at the founding fathers, the american experience, and a different way of presenting it that would appeal to young people? lin: you speak to what we were really conscious of, which is how do we eliminate any distance between our story and now. we knew what the story was going to sound like now. we knew that fundamentally this is a country that was founded and created by immigrants. somebody stepped off a boat or

some form of transportation, put their foot down on this soil and went to work. as we started thinking about taking the inspiration of ron's book, we thought here are a lot of of events, but we have to tell a story. we both read the book and made our own timelines. then we would compare, hey this really spoke to me, hey this moment feels like it is essential. it just became so apparent early on that we were designing how the show could function that this idea of doubling characters felt really right on. the character who played lafayette also plays jefferson. they both had this connection to france, one antagonistic, one supportive. how can we make the audience feel like who they are and what they understand is not so different from what these people are struggling with?

? that is the first thing i checked, by the way. i checked and said something already did a hip-hop version of this. this is someone who grew up in hard times and wrote his way out of a circumstance. that is the hip-hop narrative from the south bronx to the 70's to today. i googled hamilton hip-hop musical. it was not there. now you will see my show. that was the first thing that jumped out at me. this is a fundamental hip-hop story. charlie: i'm young, scrappy, hungry, and i'm not throwing away my shot. rapping.ie rose is wr

charlie: we roll on everything. you performed that. at the white house. before we see that, is that what the president responded to when he said, we should see this? lin: this is my first time performing this song in public. they asked me to perform something from in the heights. i said i have 16 bars and they allowed me to close out the show with that. and his responses, somebody ought to get geithner in here. the economic crisis had just blown up and he said geithner, has the hardest job as trek secretary since alexander hamilton.

this is very early in obama's administration, may of 2009. they were just figuring out how to do this thing, how to get us out of the whole you are in. i think he was tickled by the fact i made a treasury secretary saying. >> he also performed it from aaron burr's point of view. it got a laugh about halfway through. charlie: where did that idea come from, aaron burr's perspective? >> we have a great tradition, thanks to andrew lloyd webber, of the antagonist narrating the story. judas narrates jesus christ superstar. that was immediately where i went. that set up a very difficult task of figuring out who aaron burr is. as we say in the show, he is a villain and our history. charlie: you think more of him. lin: i do after reading more about him.

one of the things i learned is he is an early feminist. his daughter received an education greater of any man in that era. he was close with his wife and daughter. he was on the society with alexander hamilton for the abolition of slaves in new york state. there are redeeming characteristics to this guy. i had to find my way into that. every biographer is either insanely defensive or vilifies him. charlie: on the one hand aaron burr was cautious, careful, laid-back. alexander hamilton wanted to charge forward at every moment. lin-manuel: hamilton left behind 27 volumes of written work, burr left behind two. the tragedy of the show is at

the moment when burr is reckless and let's go, and hamilton is cautious and throws away his shot, one kills the other. charlie: have you thought about playing burr? lin: as i was writing, yes. charlie: because he was the narrator? because he gets all the best songs in the show. it really fits leslie like a glove. he gets these wonderful moments. one of my favorites being the room where it happens. he talks about not being in power and seeing hamilton trade away the capital in exchange for his financial plan. how am i not in this room? how am i not in the room where it happened. charlie: this is you at the white house in 2009, performing the first rap song you wrote for hamilton. here it is. ♪

>> ♪ wanting to be a hero and a scholar. the $10 found it without a father. got a lot farther by being a lot smarter, by being a self-starter. by 14 they placed him in charge of the trade and charter. slaves would be slaughtered. across the ways hamilton kept his garter. that hurricane came, the young man saw his future dripping down the drain. he wrote his first refrain. a testament to his pain. the word god around that this kid is insane. let's take up a collection to

send him to the mainland. and the world is going to know your name. what's your name? alexander hamilton. [laughter] his name is alexander hamilton. there is a million things he hasn't done, but just you wait. when he was 10 his father split, full of it, debt ridden. his mother bed ridden. half dead. alex got better but his mother went quick. moved in with his cousin, his cousin committed suicide, left 10 with nothing but a ruined pride. saying alex you got to send for yourself. he started retreating and reading every book on the shelf. nothing left to do, he would have been destitute without a sense of restitution. working for his late mother's landlord.

trading sugarcane for all the things he can't afford. reading every book he can get his hands on. planning for the future. standing on the bow of a ship heading for a new land, to new york, you can be a new man. ship is in the harbor now, see if you can spot him, another immigrant coming up from the bottom. i'm the damn fool that shot him. ♪ charlie: there you go. could this ever have been done? it's almost like it had to be invented, created for this. >> thank you. that means a lot. i think the score is a love letter to hip-hop and musical theater. there's a lot of references to both embedded throughout. you're right. it is this heightened language and we learn really early on , that whenever we dipped into prose the energy went , out.

we had the ball throat up so high in this opening number. we kind of have to keep it at that level. there are times when we take musical breaks and slow down and speed it back up again. this heightened language seemed to be the only way to convey hamilton's worldview. ♪

charlie: to the million fans

around the world they are known as screw elects skrillex and diplo. the new york times has called them purveyors of an american strength of electronic dance music. they combine creative forces to form a supergroup. here's a look at their single from their new album. ♪

charlie: i'm pleased to have diplo and skrillex at the table. welcome. here is why i'm really happy about this, i didn't know that much about either of you. the more i read and learned i was excited to have you here. let me begin with this, do you think of yourself as musicians or something else? skrillex: it is a combination of being musicians. i came from singing in bands and playing guitar. it is the culmination of being a musician and artist. someone who creates things and brings things together. diplo: you have to have one foot in the music and the creation of the media around the music, the way the shows put together. i create music now and i have learned how to play music on my own.

i think it is bigger than playing guitar. you have to create an atmosphere . when you create some big electronic it is more complex. charlie: what has made it so popular? $6.9 billion per year. skrillex: it was the timing. the fact that the internet and being able to share media happened at the same time and , programs are so accessible. people that are younger coming into music. coming from a band, i found it easier to express myself through a computer. it is a one-stop shop. music videos are all made by us. diplo: the distribution chain is broken. it used to be when you had a band you get your band together, , find some friends that like to make music, you find a garage

and rehearse for weeks and weeks find someone to borrow some , money or use a studio to record a record, may be fine a label find someone who wants to promote. that is a two-year process. now it is diy. i can reach somebody in a couple of hours and that record could be catapulted into something on the radio. they still have things like being bands, but we are in a different world. we are very grassroots and we are mistreating it -- distributing it ourselves. skrillex: the renaissance of all art has become to digitize with computer and cell phones. people can edit on instagram. that gives normal people and outlet to be creative, and that can go deeper into music and editing and young people making art in general. charlie: it also has huge energy. skrillex: i think it comes from being such a youthful movement.

the producers are becoming popular and making a living are getting younger and younger. diplo: our job is inside the computer, inside the speakers to make the loudest, the craziest, the next, the biggest. something you have never heard before. it is our goal to make something progressive and make something brand-new. skrillex: it is all about taking things that shouldn't make sense. in traditional dance music he wouldn't have something like

that. charlie: let's talk about forming jack u. who's idea? diplo: we became really good friends and i think we have always been outsiders in this dance world and the producer world that we try to create stuff together. it was really special because we have a quality control. it is not good enough until it is good enough for both of us. and, that takes a lot of work. charlie: is it a long time? diplo: that record you played a video of, we recorded that in three hours in a hotel room and it took another month after the two hours of recording the vocals to make the song sound the way it did. but, for me it may take a year to mix a record and produce it properly, even if it takes a night to write it. charlie: it is extraordinary for two people at the top coming together. i mean you would a, ultimately two people become really good and then split. to came together as

, competitors almost. skrillex: we have that quality control. charlie: do you guys complement each other? skrillex: in what way? as and, you look nice today? or do you mean our sound? we are both so forward inking. -- thinking. we just both tried to push the envelope with sound. jack u takes it to the next level. we make good music. diplo: i'm always mixing my music with things you wouldn't expect, like a rapper, a rock singer. a country singer. somebody who does pop. even though he sang on our new album we are always looking to collaborate and make things you haven't heard before, things that are unexpected. and that is, you know, something with the justin bieber record kind of. rose: how did the

collaboration with justin bieber take place? diplo: i became friends with justin bieber four years in l.a. i'm on headphones on a table like this, playing around with it until we have some ideas. we had a spark into the to the finish line. charlie: take a look at this. roll tape. here it is. ♪ justin bieber: ♪ [♪]

♪ skrillex: we just shot justin bieber dancing and performing in a very simple background, but then took all of the stills from the video and open up an art gallery in l.a. and invited fans, haters, and artists to draw whatever they wanted to on justin bieber. you can see a lot of stuff, everything from compliments to false god, illuminati, anything

you wanted to say. some political messages. diplo: our album is so collaborative. like i was saying before, we wanted a video in a way that uses justin bieber's voice in a way that personified what it is to be like justin bieber. as a piece of art himself. we were doing graffiti on him. we created something out of that idea of that pedestal created for artists. it wanted to make collaborative by our fans and by people who know justin heber. -- justin bieber. charlie: what makes justin bieber tick? skrillex: i think when you are that young and you grow up that famous -- i don't even know if money -- i had money at a young age and i lost it. because i was in a band. it didn't really feel different. maybe it is a certain point when you are surrounding yourself with people who aren't conducive to what you should be doing, it can throw you into an area where you are very

reactive. i think that now he is in a good lace. -- place. he's around really good people and creative people. no matter what anybody says he is one of the most town to -- one of the most talented people i have been ever in the studio with. charlie: one of the most talented people? diplo: he is good at ping-pong, he is good at volleyball. charlie: you tour 300 shows per year? diplo: i did three in new york, three in phillie. charlie: sometimes you get 100,000 people. diplo: i want played for 100,000 people. we played for about 60,000 people at heart fest. he did las vegas, though, vancouver, someplace else. charlie: 100,000 people?

diplo: quebec city, 100,000 people. we played for about 60,000 people at heart fest. in los angeles. charlie: how are you changing? how is what you are doing growing, other than the size of it? what is the driving force behind change? skrillex: i think back when we first started, i came in as a dj. we were outsiders from this thing, doing it our own way. in the beginning no one considered us musicians. not that we cared or anything, but i think we gained a lot more respect from a lot of different artists. a lot of people even four or five years ago, a lot of fees

-- these credible people that are musicians considered us musicians, but like, the media and the outside world did not. now people trust us a little bit more. we never set out to make radio records. nationally our sound is starting to cross over. diplo: we have a lot of producers, their main goal is to get on the radio and sell records. our fan base is going to be there regardless if we are making music for fans. we performed live and we think about how the kids at our shows going to like this.

>> our fan base is going to be there no matter what. we never think about, is radio going to plug this? charlie: how do you measure success? is it in your head or some other way? diplo: i just want to make great music. i want music to give me goosebumps. it happened with this record. this was really special. scripts thing when you make a record and play for the first time in front of an audience you feel a connect. where he really shine, teaching what we do is to sit up there, we are curating the soundtrack

in a live experience for people. even these festivals are mixed at it we play a lot of festivals with rock bands and rap artists. what we do is so maximal. that is that peak moment where it is all about the life energy of everyone together. that is more important than on the radio. if it doesn't connect live, i would rather have it connect live. diplo: i think the taste of america has changed, where you used to have a machine where put records on the radio, to where now, i have a record on the radio that was released independently. no help from any major labels. it is possible to put a great song on the radio with the right team.

charlie: take me through the process of creating something. diplo: we had a day off with arcade fire. a friend of mine was there and said, let's go meet up with you guys. we went up to his garage and played for 20 minutes, with everybody on an instrument. i got the files from them and edited down these loops and little pieces. i'm probably going to go back with the lead singer and record some vocals on it. skrillex: we just jammed for 45 minutes and made an album worth of material. sometimes we will start with three chords and a vocal. that first record, we recorded the song. the vocal and the melody. that was a whole other side of the process. diplo: for me sonny was a game

changer in the dj world. while his production and mixing was another level above what i'm hearing on the radio, he has a high standard for the way he makes music sound. he is the first guy i met in the dj world that has a rock star presence. he can handle himself on stage. a lot of djs are pretty boring. you kind of need to have the rock star. charlie: does that come from understanding movement,

understanding presents, understanding relating to an audience? skrillex: it is about being true to yourself in a moment. the more people i'm djing in front of, the better. charlie: the more people, the better you are? skrillex: the energy you get from the stage is indescribable. when people are having fun with the music, it inspires you to go down the right path. if people stop moving, you are not making it the right sounds. oh what was it like playing in madison garden? skrillex: it was a great bucket list. charlie: what else is on the bucket list? diplo: charlie rose show. charlie: what about musically? diplo: it strange we have people paying attention to this project out of nowhere. people are expecting another

single with us. everything that has happened with these records has happened organically. we have a really strange leverage over artist right now to give us the best records they have done. charlie: when you say "leverage" what are you saying? diplo: when you're working with the artist it is always a sense of negotiating. you find out where the comfort level is. sometimes a fixed or will take -- a lot of times a big star will take up most of these bays and you only have a little say. we did 90% of the direction it went. i think a lot of people were like, wow. charlie: that has to do with bieber trusting you? diplo: exactly. once we take it to another level i think it gives people confidence to allow us to do it again. skrillex: they have family, and kids, and all the stuff. we are so inspired and hungry to make great songs and great tracks that sound like nothing else can push the boundaries. even the justin bieber single, a top record, it is not a traditional pop song. instead of changing first chorus, first chorus, bridge, outtro, we are changing the format.

charlie: you also have a reputation of being able to spot trends. what does that mean? we are both kids inside. i'm in my late twenties. diplo: mid-thirties. skrillex: we are like kids. we listen to music the way kids do. i to people a couple of years younger than me and they talk to me saying, i'm old.

when you keep saying that you are becoming old. diplo: we have been on the road for a decade, both of us. because this is the way we have been touring. i have been moving all over the place. it is inspiring to me. i think that, when i say we show trends, we are on the and on the radio because we are at the party two nights ago. we're hanging out with kids who make music we make. we come from underground. we come from an underground sensibility. charlie: how old are they? skrillex they are between the : 20's and 30's. they are getting younger too. we went to a party yesterday where they were in their 30's. it got to a lot of rap music, a lot of underground rock music. it is all part of our scene. skrillex: young kids in hip-hop, it is music you can't really put a genre on.

it is made the same way we make it. we make it in rooms with our friends. nothing is fancy. we do not need all of these suit people around checking up on us. we make it in our own environment and have a good time. charlie: what about drugs? this is what the guardian wrote. "molly has roughly coincided with the ascent of skrillex and the clumsily named electronic dance music to the top of the u.s. dance music charts." skrillex: i think with every generation of music -- diplo: false. charlie: are you responsible with the ascent of molly? skrillex: no, i am not. i make music, i do not make drugs. the thing is, if you look at

the patterns of any era where music exploded in youth culture, just because of the bigger ratio creates a bigger ratio of drugs. drugs have always been used. in the disco era, cocaine. obviously, lsd and, like, marijuana. there have always and drugs. beenhere have always drugs. this year it happened to be molly. before there was skrillex, and dma and ecstasy have been going on since the beginning. it inevitably got bigger with the culture that came along with it. but, you know, like, sword of the events we play and the audience we reach out to our so much more vast than what, you know, this article talked about. charlie: where it you think you

in the music will be in five years? diplo: we are both humble. we feel lucky to be doing this. i'm just happy people are paying attention. as long as they are, i want to make as much as i can. charlie: of all the good things people are saying about you, what do you appreciate the most? about the music, the fame, the attention. skrillex: there are some people -- there are so many people coming to the shows. when you talk about something like drug use and the negative side of things, it is still the minority. i mean, like, i believe we are truly artists. it is a renaissance of how you can create art and music new technology. what is happening right now. and that is awesome. that can lead to anything that can lead to anything. diplo: there used to be barriers and genres about what

you should listen to. if we can change the ideas of the limits of music, that would be important. skrillex: we are enabling a lot of people. like i said, when we first started out, we were not considered musicians. there has been electronic music, ever since george and brian eno. that?ie: when was diplo: diplo: electronic music got its notoriety with summer records. those like a big breakthrough. it evolves into hip-hop, into dance music, into new wave, into industrial music, all the way up to us. that evolved into dance music, , hip-hop,c electronic. i'll be way up to us. and we are like a culmination of everything that happened before us. we are like another filter that comes out. charlie: here it is. that we canope is

take this technological shift. the internet is not just audio. it is audio, visual, and interactive. what is the future of music going to be in that format that is not just about the actual sound itself anymore? it is about the sound and perhaps maybe the interactive part. charlie: would you agree with them? diplo: what helps me be successful, a lot of artists that battle distribution systems, we embrace it 100%. we would rather people listen to our music. that is important for us, to get our music heard that the -- they had met to grab every

penny we can get. skrillex: you have different girls -- if you're going to take your music away from one area, there is a whole demographic of people that only go to that aisle. you know? and still? there is a whole lot of people that buy cds. those people -- this is my philosophy. i am not telling anybody else they have to do that. you know, some people go to spotify and subscribe. if you take it away you are alienating people. they are not going to see your music. it doesn't mean they are going to change. a lot of times they are not going to go by a cd because you took your stuff off spotify. charlie: they also may not have a chance of getting a record made. >> technology has never really benefited the artist. it has always benefited the audience. >> i was immediately recording

stuff off the radio. it has always been in favor of the audience to make it easier for them. it is not going to get any easier than the artist. the more you fight it, the more you are wasting your time. the audience is going to find easier and easier ways. you can't stop that. >> accessibility is a keyword. diplo: we have always wrote that way. -- rode that wave. if we thought it, we would still be in our studio complaining. skrillex: the one thing i am bummed that is all the major labels. those kids on sound cloud -- we are some of the biggest people on sound cloud with the most followers. that is a huge asset to our overall business. there are kids that only go to sound cloud. that eliminates a big asset and is cutting off your music to an audience. there is definitely a lot of controversy. the way they wanted to be

heard. charlie: are you happiest in front of a large crowd? and you are really at one with them and the music? skrillex: both small and large. i mean you make a song and it , gives you the chills and you get to experience it being heard in a different way in front of people. it creates an energy in the room. that is a special feeling. i think just for the audience as much as for us. diplo: i'm just lucky i make a living creating. i'm happy i can do that and share it with people. know, myike, you

family never had, never believed i could make a living off of creating something, you know? charlie: it is not a bad living, is it? thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

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