♪ betty: he is the billionaire media mogul who calls himself a country boy from tennessee. dish network founder charlie ergan speaks out. charlie: i think we have a lot to talk about now. betty: for the first time on bloomberg television, ergen weighs in on the seismic shift taking place in television. his plans to become the next big wireless company and why he may be looking to merge with that guy, the pink t-shirt wearing t-mobile ceo john ledger. charlie: they certainly have done a fantastic job, being an upstart company, the uncarrier, so to speak. betty: but the famously tough boss faces questions about his management style. charlie: we have high expectations, and if you are not somebody who is used to high expectations, you're just not as comfortable here. betty: join me as charlie ergen dishes it all out on this

edition of "titans at the table." betty: hello, i am betty liu. welcome to "titans at the table." dish network founder charlie ergen has always been known as something of a fearless renegade. from being thrown out of casinos for counting cards to selling satellites out of his car trunk in colorado. he led a group that started echostar in the 1980's and then started dish in the next decade, upending the traditional cable tv world. in the process, he has become one of the richest men in america, worth more than $20 billion. ergen stepped out of the spotlight in 2011, leaving the ceo rein to joe clayton. but just four years later, the founder is back in the hot seat as television undergoes another revolution. video, moving on to your second screen. like the satellite tv business, ergen wants to be at the forefront of this change by creating a new, over the top product called sling tv and

buying up billions of dollars worth of wireless assets. assets that he says can be used to build a legitimate competitor to at&t and verizon. when we first sat down for our interview with him at his inglewood, colorado headquarters, i asked ergen to describe this new frontier. charlie: now we are in another transformation, and the transformation is really going about in two places. one is television. tv itself is transforming. people are looking more for what they want to watch and not paying for things they don't watch. they want to watch their tv everywhere. part of that is the technology of ott, over the top, allows customers to do that. the second transformation wireless, is the wireless industry, where the world is going to be connected all the time. and there is only two ways to do it -- one is through the wire and the other way is to do it wirelessly. we started on this mission five

years ago to say that we want to be part of that connectivity revolution. and we think that the best place for us to be in the marketplace if we can is in the wireless side. we really are a wireless company already. betty: so you have accumulated something like $60 billion in wireless assets? charlie: we have accumulated about 80 megahertz of spectrum. they vary in prices and valuations of what people think that's worth, but certainly, it certainly is worth a fair amount of money. but it is only really worth money when you put it to use and when you ultimately build a business around it and get discounted cash flows in the future. and of course that is what we are looking forward to doing. betty: charlie, does this remind you at all -- what you just said -- the transformation of television. and this -- you know, the onboarding of so many millions of people wirelessly. does this remind you of the early days of satellite television? charlie: it does. because in the early days of satellite television, everybody -- the incumbents said well, why would satellite tv -- why would anybody pay for a satellite dish? the answer was pretty simple -- it was better picture quality. it was all digital. it was an interactive guide. it was less expensive.

the bundles were smaller so you had more choices as a consumer. the signal quality was more reliable. it was a better picture. hd tv was more prevelent with -- more prevalent with satellite. and so now people are asking the question, why would you pay for ott? and there are similarities. ott eliminates some of the pain points. we have 10 to 15 million broadband homes who do not pay for tv as we know it. they may pay for netflix or hulu but they do not pay for tv as we know it. we take away some of those pain points with sling tv. you do not have a contract, you don't have equipment to buy normally. you can go on vacation and not pay for a subscription or to put it on hold for a month. it is immediate. so you could sign up for sling tv and you are watching the nba finals tonight and you don't have to wait for an installer and somebody to come out. betty: you don't have to take a day off of work and wait for the cable guy. charlie: and it is less expensive. our basic package is about $20.

and then we have seven or eight different mini packs that you can add onto if you want to, including one premium channel in hbo, service and hbo, so it attracts a lot of people, particularly younger people who are not paying for tv today. or maybe at one time paid for tv, said it was too expensive, and dropped off the pay tv universe. we certainly are encouraged by the start of sling tv. but we have a long way to go. we are not perfect yet. we knew it would be difficult, but it is technically difficult because we are on lots of different devices. and live tv is really hard, because we are inventing things like dynamic ad insertion that haven't been done before for live tv. it reminds me a lot of when we started satellite. we started dish satellite television, we had all kinds of technical problems. and night by night, we had to knock them down one by one by one. it took us about six months. we occasionally have a technical problem today. betty: but you pretty much resolve it. obviously, you resolved it then, and you believe you will resolve it now in the same timeframe. charlie: there is no question we have resolved problems and we

have resolved most of them, but we had a choice to make. it was either get out there and find out what we don't know, or do we wait and try to be perfect. and we got out there probably a little ahead of our skis, but i think it will pay off for us now. and for the people who are watching who didn't have a good experience, try it again because you will have a better experience today. betty: you have all of your cards close to your chest right now. you have got your wireless assets, you have, you know, sling tv, you are looking at various options, so when are you going to -- when are you going to make your play? charlie: well, i mean, i think, a, we have told people what we are going to do. we have been say virtually the same thing for five years. so i don't think it is anything really new, in the sense that our dream would be to use our spectrum to really enhance the way that people connect and provide competition in the wireless business. and not just the wireless business, but the broadband business as well. because i do think that if properly deployed, we can go to a lot of homes with totally wireless connections and they would not have a need for cable

at all. for any of their needs. so that provides real meaningful competition where there is not that much competition in broadband today. so i think we can do those things. how we do those things is the way -- it is not that we haven't played our cards. we don't know. so we do not know exactly the best way to play that. because you have to find companies that have a like-minded strategy. you like to have companies that want to move the same direction that you want to do it. and you want them to make sure that it is economic to your shareholders to move in that direction. and we are not that big a company so we don't -- it is not like we can pick the phone up and make things happen. i think there are much, much bigger companies. betty: really? i think anybody would take a call from charlie ergen. charlie: i think people will take our call, but i think that certainly the wireless industry is controlled by two companies today. and they are very -- they are 20 times bigger than we are. so, they are going to make their moves and do their things and people are probably going to react to that. and so sometimes, you just have to be ready to move when you see other things that happen in this

industry. but we know, the one thing we know for sure is the spectrum we have is valuable, the spectrum will be put to use, and it will create value for shareholders. but we want to make sure it gets put to use in the most economical way and providing the best competition and the best product. betty: could charlie ergen's next play be a merger with t-mobile? i will ask him if all of those reports make sense when "titans at the table" returns. ♪

♪ betty: welcome back to "titans at the table" and my conversation with media titan charlie ergen. for years, ergen has been buying up gold. the wireless kind. he has bid in several auctions for wireless spectrum, which are basically the airwaves that transmit your phone calls or video to your devices. analysts estimate ergen is sitting on almost $50 billion worth of this gold, which has led many to wonder if he is on the cusp of merging with a wireless carrier. maybe t-mobile? he wouldn't confirm the rumors, but i asked him if it would be logical for the two companies to team up. charlie: i mean, i think that there are certainly a lot of positives to that if there are willing participants. but they certainly have done a fantastic job being the kind of upstart company, the uncarrier, so to speak. so john ledger and his team have really captured the imagination of the public in terms of attacking the pain points that we have in the wireless industry.

their network is very similar to our spectrum position. so it fits in that sense and of course, obviously, at their growth rates they are going to need more spectrum. so, those things make some sense. i think there are things that don't make as much sense. they are obviously controlled by a german company that has strategic initiatives both in europe and the united states. and they may not be in a position where they want to do anything. we have other options that may be more attractive, you know, to our board and our shareholders. i think there is a number of options that are out there. certainly, t-mo is an option. betty: well, speaking about the german owner, deutsche telekom, there are reports that one of the reasons why a deal might not happen with t-mobile is that they don't value dish shares as highly as you value them. there is a disconnect there. where do you think dish should really be trading at? charlie: well, i never can

predict the stock market. i would only say that, in the long run, we think our shares are undervalued. what we think with the spectrum value we have -- we are probably undervalued with the spectrum position we have, but we have to prove it to the marketplace. betty: undervalued by how much, charlie? charlie: well, i don't know. i don't know. i can only speak as a shareholder. i have not sold any shares recently. [laughter] charlie: i still have the shares from when we originally started the company. i believe in the long-term future of the company. i mean, this is our 35th year in business and i think our best days are ahead of us. so i think it is ultimately how you can manage the company and how you can take advantage of the things that may happen in the marketplace to grow your business. you cannot be afraid of change. and you have to have a team that can adapt to change and be willing to change, and i think we have that here at dish. our short-term focus, i think, is probably, you have an at&t/directv merger. if approved, we would want to see what the conditions -- we publicly have not opposed the merger, but we have said that there needs to be meaningful conditions, particularly to protect consumers for broadband rights.

the incentive option is coming up and there is a set aside for new competitors potentially, and that is now set at 30 megahertz. and i think us and other companies would like to see that be higher. provide competition. because what really stands of the way of real competition with at&t and verizon is the fact they control the vast majority of the low-band spectrum, so they have better coverage. betty: top of mind, what is the number one condition you want to see for you to say "ok, this merger is ok for us?" charlie: well, i think that the main condition is that obviously at&t controls a lot of the broadband pipes. and i think what they do now is they -- they -- they bundle the video and broadband pipe together where you really cannot pick the best video choice for you as a customer if you want the broadband. in some cases, they are the only broadband provider in the territory. or the only meaningful broadband provider. so what we want to see is to make sure that broadband is sold as a standalone item and not --

and a fair price to consumers. and i think the other part is that you want interconnects to the broadband pipe. the ramp to broadband -- you don't want that ramp to be closed. and net neutrality addresses some of that, but you would like to make sure that the the conditions of the merger are going to survive court cases. betty: going back on your wireless assets, as i mentioned, some people estimate the value to be $50 billion or $60 billion or so. what will you do with those wireless assets? because, you know, there are reports that for you to really be able to leverage them up, you're going to have to -- you're going to have to partner with a wireless company. but if you don't, you know, might you spin off those assets? might you separate dish into two -- video and wireless spectrum? charlie: i think we have talked about this on one of our conference calls. we have looked at different corporate structures. we continue to look at different corporate structures. so that you may end up with assets in different formations,

and the reason you would do that is just to have flexibility for how they could get put to use and maybe the timing of when they could be put to use. so we have looked at that. we haven't made any decisions on that yet. but it is certainly something worthy of looking at. betty: is there anyone out there that you would never partner with? charlie: no, i don't think we would ever -- we would never say never. i don't think so. i mean, the people i know in this industry -- i have a tremendous amount of respect for what they have all done. they have all been very successful companies. they all have their strengths and weaknesses. they all have things that are meaningful. i think the most important thing to us is ultimately what would the value be to our shareholders, and who would make the best use of -- help us make the best use of our spectrum? so we can change the way people live by this connectivity and how that does change lives. and we have done some of that on a small scale with satellite tv. you know, we were the first guys to -- to really do local to local and spot beam satellites. we were the first guys to really have a dvr for the american public. we obviously have fought many

battles to make sure that consumers have the right to choose in how they watch their tv. so i think we have done a lot of really good things, but like i said, i hope our best days are ahead of us and that we change the way we connect. and if you change the way -- if you get people connected all the time, it changes every facet of your life, from health care to education to the way that you live. and it is a great digital divide conqueror, because at all levels of the american economy -- rich, poor, inner-city, rural -- they all know how to use phones and tablets. and even little kids know how to use a tablet at two or three years old. betty: it is a great equalizer, isn't it? charlie: so it is a great equalizer. so i think we can have a positive impact on america and society in terms of making sure that we bridge that digital divide, and one of the ways i think we can do that is with connectivity. betty: when we come back, what is it like to work for ergen? i asked the dish founder about his reputation as a difficult boss and how he is trying to revamp that image in his

company. charlie: you don't get a medal for participation. betty: more when "titans at the table" returns. ♪

♪ betty: welcome back to "titans at the table." i am betty liu. it was fun to sit down with

charlie ergen, but according to some reports, it is not so much fun to work for him. in 2012 and 2013, employee surveys conducted by glassdoor gave dish network some of the lowest ratings in the country for its work environment. ergen told me he is aware of the criticism and is trying to change some things internally, but he also defended the culture he has built at dish. charlie: i think i am a really easy guy to work for and with if you are a high achiever and you want to achieve something. if you just want a job, you are probably not going to like it too much here. right? i mean, i think -- i think dish is a culture for those people who want to achieve something. and there is some uncertainty, as you know, as we are talking about what you can do with the wireless. our shareholders don't know exactly, so there is some uncertainty, so it takes a little bit of bravery as a shareholder. you have long-term thinking. and i think even for employees, they would like to know what is going to happen tomorrow, but we don't always know what is going to happen tomorrow. so it is a special kind of -- it takes trust in your management, it takes a bit of an adventurous spirit to work here. because you don't always know exactly where you're going to go. and you are not in a training program, so you have to be a bit

more of a self-starter. but for those people who like that, wow, we have people who started in the warehouse that are executives. there are people who started in call centers who are executives now. people who are achieving kind of their own internal potential and they are passionate about what they are doing and they're having a lot of fun. betty: if you were to write a management book, charlie, what would the title be? charlie: i wouldn't write a -- i couldn't write a book, number one, but i do think that companies --that the culture of a company is important. and i think that companies don't have a good track record of surviving a founder. right? and the ones that do have a culture that carries on. right? it's not to say a culture would not evolve and change over time, but the culture is what carries on, not the people. so once you establish a culture, i think you have to hire and train into that culture. maybe where -- we have made some mistakes in the past where maybe we got complacent and did not do a good enough job up front in making sure people really

understood what our culture was about. but i think what people generally say they like about the culture is they can make a difference and they can get decisions and do things quickly. whereas a lot of companies, it is a lot of data, a lot of analyzing, a lot of meetings without a lot of decisions. here, we are moving pretty quick. you know, but the negative part of it is we do -- we have high expectations. if you're not somebody used to high expectations, you are just not as comfortable here. you know, it's -- i remember when my kids would be in the relay on the track meet at school and the person who came in first and the person who came in last, they all got medals for participating. but we don't do it that way here. you know, you don't get a medal for participation. betty: ergen went on to tell me that he thinks companies can be demanding while keeping their employees happy, but it is clear that for this ceo, winning is what ultimately counts. so our conversation turns to competition. as the paid tv market morphs, will there be a shakeout, and who will succeed?

charlie: like any new technology, new business, there will be some carcasses that won't make it. they will be dead along the side of the road. we just hope we're not one of them. you know, we don't mind other people being successful. we really kind of try to do it ourselves and think how we are going to be successful. and we will be successful if we have good technology, and a good product, and a good choices. betty: is it going to be fought on price? is it going to be primarily on price? charlie: i think it will be fought on price, but i think also user interface and ease of use. so can you just pick it up and use it without an instruction manual? you know, certainly, apple has pioneered that kind of thing, but we have done a pretty good job of that ourselves. and we got lots of room for improvement on sling tv. it was a pretty good user interface for 20 channels. now we're 60 channels. over 200 international channels. so we have to make improvements there, but it will be fought on a number of issues. it will be fought on distribution, it will be fought on real estate on devices, is your app on devices? so a lot of issues, but price will be one of the issues.

betty: so given that, i mean, is apple tv -- the fact they have not revamped this in several years, are they a little too late to the game here? charlie: no, i think we are still in the first inning. so i do not think they are late to the game at all. i don't think the second inning is until next year. i think there is room for multiple entrants. and we will probably see multiple entrants, including the cable industry, at some point in time. betty: where do you see video in five years, charlie? charlie: i mean, in general, almost any video you or i would want to watch is probably in the cloud. and we are probably connected to the cloud, and we have access to that video. and the next generation probably doesn't know, necessarily know video by channels, they probably don't know it by comedy central, they know it by this particular show. betty: the program. charlie: by the program. there is a loss of identity, i think probably, that goes on between the networks, and it just becomes shows.

netflix has proven that, right? you do not know -- you are getting programming from viacom and discovery, but you don't know it is their programming. i am a little bit -- i was always a little baffled why the programmers did that. but that cow is out of the barn. so you are just going to talk to your phone or to your device and say, "this is what i want to watch," and it is just going to pull it up and you are going to start watching it. and you're not going to have to worry about pushing a button to record something. you're not going to have to worry about doing anything. it is just that you are going to have access on demand to every video. betty: instantly. charlie: whether it is a 1930's movie or the latest sporting event. betty: so you distribute content, but would you ever go into creating content? charlie: i doubt it. we barely have expertise to do

what we are doing today as a company. and we are trying to get better, but we have no expertise on content creation. the only thing we ever created in content was a "charlie chat" show where i would sit here and talk to our customers like i'm talking to you, when i was ceo, and it was a pretty bad show. and you know, that is the best we have ever done. betty: have you reinstituted that? charlie: i haven't yet. there is not, like -- the phone is not ringing off the hook to bring back the "charlie chat." betty: that wraps up this special "titans at the table" conversation with dish tv founder and ceo charlie ergen. you can find more episodes of our show on bloomberg.com, along with in-depth coverage of today's news and conversations with the world's business leaders. i am betty liu. thanks for watching "titans at the table." ♪

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