oucer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." clinton hillary testifying in front of the house benghazi committee and joe biden deciding not to run. those are the big stories this week. we are joined with mike allen from politico. mike, how did hillary do today? mike: congratulations on the walter cronkite award in journalistic excellence.

a memorable line in your acceptance speech. when you wake up in the morning and say, what is my adventure going to be? friends. have been my -- friend. charlie: i remember charles kuralt who said, when we see a writer around cbs, we salute him or her, but thank you, mike. turning to hillary and her much anticipated testimony today, how did she do? mike: she did fantastically. friends, her allies, she was very smart. she'll most did a rope a dope strategy. she was classic and she was polished at her basic demeanor was if you want to ask me these

questions for an eighth time, i will answer these questions for an eighth time. she said earlier that she did not have a lot of new things to say, and charlie, that is what she stuck to. charlie: what about you? this is not something she wanted to talk about, but given that, it she had two new pitfalls, as a leader, she did something wrong, and the second pitfall was, was there going to be a moment when she looked callous or she looked dishonest? that didn't happen, either. so if she can whether those two -- weather those two things, then she can get through october. charlie: obviously we have no contest yet. , but does in february

she face any big hurdle now? is still herself and her record. if she starts to be measured is why she has competition. that is why the debates went well for her. she has amazing strength in south carolina and all of the rest of the states. she is ahead in iowa and losing a little bit to bernie sanders in new hampshire. if that sticks, she is in good shape. charlie: and then -- mike, go ahead. republicans were a little bit gun shy because of the accusations of partisanship about this committee. polls,r doing well in for the first time, this campaign feels like she is getting her foot in. charlie: go ahead, john.

john: the committee keeps focusing around this terrible thing that happened and wondered why it happened. what was being said is what was already known. failure a systemic here. security was low and that simply wasn't addressed. that then there is the central question, why did that happen and what was hillary clinton's central role? if you look at this, you just wondered what the double was all of this -- itrlie: she basically said is not the role of secretary of state, so it was on her watch, and therefore some people held her responsible. right, and you had this ambassador saying, help me, help me, and not getting support. available andte seemed available to talk about anything. so why wasn't she getting messages about help me from the

ambassador but she was able to get information from sidney blumenthal? the weeds, down into it quickly became one where you looked at it and thought, what is really the central question? major thate everybody understood that ambassador stevens was a friend of hers, a good friend of hers, and after his death, she was behind all of the recommendations that this kind of thing did not happen again. john: she basically came out and said that the security was handled by professionals. it is not the secretary of state potter job to make sure that -- that's job to make sure the security is up to snuff. givens the answer she has before, so there is nothing new coming out of this. charlie: before turning to biden , when you look at the e-mails, the committee was organized to look at benghazi and then it

discovered the e-mails and that they had been done on a private server. did anything come out of that story or is there any potential that something can come out of there that would do damage to her down the road? mike? mike: absolutely potentially. this is the worry for her campaign. in a campaign, you want to know what the problems are. candidates that themselves. that is why they do opposition research on themselves they know the worst things that are out there. hillary clinton's campaign doesn't know that. they don't know whether these e-mails are going to be recoverable, and they don't know if these e-mails are going to be problematic, and here, charlie, is the biggest known unknown, this investigation has been happening for years, and the problem with having the justice department look into something is that they never start with what they are going to end with.

so when they start looking into something, the justice department can go in any number of directions. andan go over many months you don't know what is going on if you are trying to plan a national campaign. charlie: ok, joe biden? goodbye, biden says the beginning of a long goodbye to his career, in his decision of not deciding to run for president. everything he said in his speech said, boy, i really wanted to run. thatie: he had a message he wanted to take to the country that he believed in. john: he did, and one thing that struck me about it is that he said, we've got to try again with republicans. we've got to think about bipartisanship and there was a little dig at hillary clinton when he said that republicans are not our enemy. that is something that you would expect from him. that is something you would expect from somebody who began

his career in the congress in the 1970's. but that is not what you are hearing right now. any people say that republicans are a lost cause and we need to behave that way and run our campaign that way. so he had this whole fashion -- this old-fashioned method -- message. charlie: mike, you said today that this was a battle between his heart and his head and his head won. mike: right, this was never going to be feasible. starting with the president, he would be paying the air force two bills wherever he were to go, and it would be very expensive. it will require him to have a big staff get everywhere in a big hurry, and most of the people in this campaign are already spoken for, and hillary would need to have some dramatic term the fall her -- turn befall

be able to run. so everything that the vice president has done for weeks and months is something that reflects somebody who wanted to run for president. charlie, i admitted to you here week thate rose" the i had been going back and forth whether or not he was likely to run, i have been fourth for forth for quite is because theat vice president has been ebbing and flowing. seemed frazzled and exasperated, and was demanding more operational details about what staff was immediately available, how they would pull this off, so it didn't matter if the vice president looked bad and whether this was feasible, but for so long, people have heard that when you are going to run, you

are going to run and someone told my colleague that it turned out this whole exercise was more fantasy football than football. : so he seemed very concerned about cancer and it seemed that his campaign was a moonshot for cancer. john: yes, and his whole campaign seemed about armchair psychology, and it was part of what he was thinking about and that is his whole family message when you are knocked down by an emotional thing like this, you have to have this effort, and without that avenue, the avenue that you can imagine would be another avenue and he would throw his heart and soul into it. but you can't get much higher than vice president. so it will be fascinating to see you he takes all of that energy for a life that has been on the dissent -- on the ascent.

charlie: what do you think about paul ryan? mike? will be theyan speaker. and this is so fascinating. paul ryan, the head of the means and ways committee, and the head which of the councils of he had a long dream of running, and he was the one person in that body who could work with the democrats and work with the white house, and there was such a great hope of among top republicans that he would do it. but charlie, he came in and he drove a very hard bargain. somebody called it a reverse ransom note, and that is, rather than wheeling and dealing as somebody usually does when somebody wants to become speaker or when somebody wants a leadership job, he issued the conditions to the right wing of his party and he said, i will give something to you and i will have some concessions, including

giving more power to the committees and entertaining many of your ideas, but the speaker under me will be more powerful and he would remove the ability to constantly threatened to undermine him. and they have gone along. so, charlie, it looks like we are on the path to have paul ryan take the gavel, which is a big surprise. uni talked about the tough calculus for paul ryan. if he is speaker today, it is a less likely for him to be president in the future. charlie: but why is that? john: mike and i talked about that, because he is going to have a tough fight. paul ryan has been on the opposite side of the freedom caucus and a number of other issues. whether that is raising the debt limit or a budget extension, all of the things that this group

didn't like, and that is where his heart is. he is closer to boehner and mccarthy in his tactical views even those he is quite conservative, so that is his scar tissue. if that is your scar tissue and you are going to run for president, you're going to have to explain or talk to the people in the grassroots about this. charlie: let me close with the republican race. we talked about the democrats and paul ryan and then we have new polling showing ben carson winning in iowa, beating donald trump in iowa, and it the same time, we see trump's numbers holding. john: if there was a state that you think that donald trump would be iowa. if there is an evangelical vote, and 71 to grab that, that would be iowa. there have been homeschoolers that have studied ben carson potter books, they like him.

the question is what is interesting is, two things, will they take on ben carson, because he has been doing well everywhere else? his base doesn't like jeb bush, so when donald trump is in a fracas with jeb bush, they don't mind. but they like ben carson, so what is that going to look like? question is that ted cruz had this idea of emerging in this iowa strategy, and he now in that same poll you mentioned where ben carson is at the top, you then have trump, you then have rubio, and you then have ted cruz. ted cruz is not rising. maybe he can wait this out. it i think there is evidence that he could get a little antsy -- but i think there is evidence that he could get a little antsy. charlie: mike, how does the republican race look to you from where you sit? mike: the factors you were just outlined their means that the

republican might just be saying that he cannot believe his life. he is coming in on single digits in florida. carson is rising. somebody pointed out to me that is totally apart from governor bush's last name. if you look at the message of ben carson and donald trump, we don't trust them and they are antiestablishment in their message, it is a rebuke. it is a rebuke of the record. just this week, we saw michael murphy, and early strategist for jeb bush, out in california, saying that governor bush would last until march, and then after this early stage, then we would see his strength. but charlie, as you and john know, that is a tough gamble to make. charlie: thank you very much, mike. last word to you, sir. yes, what about joe biden?

he could come back in, charlie. charlie: it ain't over until it is over. john: that's right, but jeb bush has to show that he has some ability somewhere that would allow him which michael murphy talked about and when the moment happens, hey, he is there. on thes yet to happen campaign trail. he has yet to show that he has a talent that he can exploit at the right moment. so that is a real challenge that mike raise, so once you lose a couple of times, it is very difficult to get up again. charlie: john dickinson, mike allen, thank you very much. ♪

charlie: john gresham is here. " said thatrk times there is a reason that he has wrote so many books, and that reason is he is very good. his newest novel is called "rogue lawyer," about sebastian rudd who is a lawyer who takes other cases that other lawyers would not touch. welcome back, john. john: thank you, charlie. charlie: this is the 28th book. 28 novels of nonfiction and five novels for young readers. john: book number 305i believe?

written 55 ands i am trying to catch him. he knows i am behind him and he feels the pressure so he is really cranking them out now. "thepelican brief," "the king of torts," and on and on and on and on. and there are kids' books. you are what they call prolific. ok, that is over the last 30 years. charlie, i haven't worked 40 hours a week in the last 20 years. kinds ofut in those hours. i work for or five hours in the morning and when i am writing, i start a new book on january 1. that is my dropdead goal and

then the goal is to finish by july the first, six months. charlie: and it will be punished -- published when? john: october. july 1 you spend a month or two of divisions and then it goes to press around labor day and then it takes a while to print books and then it comes out in mid-october and it stays up for a couple of years. charlie: do you have the impression that critics are catching up to you? john: i don't care. charlie: i did not ask if you care to, i asked if you are if they are getting better of catching up with you? i read what "the new york times" said about you. i am not a lawyer as good as you are, but -- john: i think at some point in popular fiction, it probably all heirs in popular coulter, whether it is writing or music

or film or television or even athletics, ashen, whatever your area is, your topic. at some point you have been around for so long -- charlie: that you don't appreciate it? john: well, you do, but it is like teflon and they leave you alone. charlie: or maybe they see something that -- john: and some books are better than others. you might have a good year with a book, and you write something and you think, ok, this is hard to look back at your own stuff and judge it and say, what is better than the other books? but occasionally write one and you say, this is good. charlie: "my name is sebastian rudd, and although i am a well-known street lawyer, you will not see my name on billboards or less benches or screaming at you from the yellow pages. i don't pay to be seen on television though i am often

there. i name is not listed in any phonebook. i do not maintain a traditional office. i carry a gun legally. that is because my name and my face tens to attract attention from the type of people who would want to finally. i live alone and usually sleep alone and do not possess the patience and understanding necessary to maintain friendships. an overbearing wife who controls the checkbook. there is no way out." that is pretty good. john: it is pretty brilliant. [laughter] charlie: where do we find sebastian? of a he lives in a city million people, and unnamed city, he is a lawyer who works out of his van, his chauffeur is his bodyguard who got off in a murder trial, he takes cases that nobody else would case -- take, he goes to war with politicians, big corporations, he is not above cheating.

he thinks that if the police and prosecutors start cheating in the criminal trial, and they often do, then that clears him to cheat as well, so he has no qualms with cheating. charlie: he figures what he needs to do for his client? john: in the book, there is more courtroomt book and stuff then there is in any other of my books. you go through three trials. in the last trial, the prosecutor is not cheating, ok? tosebastian has a chance cheat big-time, and he says he is not going to cheat because the police and prosecutors are trying this case. straight up. -- case straight up. when they start cheating, i'm going to start cheating. he is the kind of guy who -- charlie: he has no problems with cheating? john: he is the kind of guy you want in a foxhole when you are under attack. lawyer the -- he is the you want. he is the pitbull. he is very colorful and has a

lot of issues. charlie: he has clients but he does not advertise in the yellow pages, you don't have an advertisement screaming at you, you don't see any billboards. nothing that says call sebastian. ofn: he doesn't make a lot moneybut he certainly makes enough to do what he wants to do. he doesn't spend a lot of money. he doesn't have any secretary or a girlfriend -- charlie: he doesn't have a girlfriend? on theell, he has been prowl. he has an ex-wife and he is at war with her. charlie: and all of this is from imagination or is this sort of a reading of john grisham? john: my imagination. i was a lawyer for 10 years and i admired those lawyers who would take the cases that no one else would. charlie, there are a lot of horrible crimes and sometimes there are crimes that are so bad that nobody wants to take the

case and a lot of lawyers will run from them. some cases are assigned by the judge and there were a couple of cases when i was a young lawyer where as soon as you heard about the trial, you go out in your office, you unplug the phone, and you don't want the judge calling you. but everybody is entitled to a fair defense of trial. and so there are always a few lawyers, not many, like sebastian, who were going to step up and say, ok, what this person is accused of doing is really, really, really awful, but i don't care. i don't care about that. i want to make sure that this person gets a fair trial. there are not many out there, and i've always admired them, because from the very core of their being as lawyer, they believe that everybody is entitled to a fair trial. charlie: do you want to go back ever to the courtroom? do you ever want to try and other case in your life? time i have suits all the

were i get dragged back to court, but i never want to be a lawyer. claim i stole a story or something, they are all frivolous. i haven't been near a courtroom in a long time. charlie: these are lawyers or? john: oh, they come from all over the place. threatening,re hey, you stole my idea, and then we say, ok, here are my lawyers responding, and they scare them off. i have not been sued for a number of years. spielberg said one big law super movie is a pretty good average. you are going to get sued by people who claim that you stole seth. -- stole stuff. i have no desire to go back to court. i do catch myself all the time, though. i read a lot of bad prosecutions and a lot of bad convictions -- charlie: people on death row? john: yes, and i often do, man, i wish i could have been there

and provided a good defense, i wish i could take that case or maybe a simple case, i wish i could take the case, you know, i wish i could do that, you know? but it's like the same thing of saying, i wish i could play for the cardinals. it is kind of a fantasy world. i am not going -- it is a fantasy world. i am not going back to court. charlie: why are you such a cardinal fan? john: i am from the deep south. the used to be on the radio. all you could pick up was a station in st. louis and the cardinals -- charlie: what's in that station a cardinals fan or a cubs fan? very i guess, it was strong through the midwest, but there were no southern teams back there. so iad atlanta and texas, grew up around memphis and memphis is still huge, there is a huge cardinal fan base there.

-- that is within your budget? that is within your budget? you could just borrow the money and own the team. john: i knew a guy who sold the team, and i said, why did you sell the cardinals? we were on bush field and tony larissa was my buddy and i said, why would you sell the cardinals? and he said, let me tell you something. the players union is brutal and it is tough dealing with. the umpires union is brutal and it is tough dealing with. but he said, nothing compares to dealing with the owners. and you look around from the owners and you think, you know, he is probably right, it would probably not be a lot of fun. ever thought you about being commissioned to play baseball? john: i don't know, charlie,

that would be a lot of work. i am 60 years old and i don't want to work too hard. charlie: so if somebody said you could work eight hours a day, and you would be a much better writer, you say, i doubt that? would you say, it is not worth it? john: take a hike and go mind your own business. [laughter] john: i am not going to work that hard. charlie: of course, you don't have to, but you really don't? john: no. charlie: and you love your work? john: it is more fun now, and " was moreogue lawyer fun than i had in a long time. ' series goingids and that is a lot of of fun because 12 euros kids across the country love it. i have to -- 12-year-old kids across the country love it.

i am thinking about the next book. i get kind of anxious about what is next. just start january 1. charlie: what do you need to have before you can start it? a character? character development? john: a character, starting with "rogue lawyer," i had -- i've got to have a plot. i've got to have a plot. charlie: what is the plot here? john: in "rogue?" there are like six different plots. and there are three different sections. each of them is very different. but in the book, there is one central plot and it drives the narrative for 400 pages. charlie: give me the example of a plot. john: well, if you look at the book, the plot was a guy commits suicide and right before he commits suicide, he has a handwritten will to give all of his land to his black housekeeper. charlie: i remember that. john: you can develop them.

and 500 pages later, it is all fleshed out. so i am looking for the compelling two or three sentence plot. now. still do this i have an idea, and i have to pitch it like a television show. charlie: to your wife is judge and jury? john: yeah, and it better be short, two or three sentences, what is the core plot? and i told us to young writers all the time, what is your plot, if you are going to write popular fiction, give me a plot. charlie: and they have to say it in like three sentences? john: yeah, like two or three sentences. charlie: you can't do it with this plot. john: this is a lot different, and it is entertaining and different in a different way. charlie: it is character driven? john: yes, it is character driven. and then the plots all tie-in

together by the last page. charlie: but you do good work. i am it worried about you being not busy enough and i am worried about you -- -- worried about you -- john: i am not worried about you, charlie. [laughter] charlie: do you know brian stevenson? john: i met him in washington, d.c. and i read his book at your ago. charlie: he is a brilliant lawyer. ton: he is, and it is great find this idealistic young attorney to have done what he has done in the last 20 years. also like you, he is dedicated to the idea of getting people out of jail, off of death row. john: he is incredible. just incredible. charlie: but you do take pride with that, don't you? sure, i take pride in the fact that people read the books and are entertained at a certain level but also educated

in a different level about certain issues and that is what i try to do. i don't preach in every book. you can do that with popular fiction. first of all, you've got to entertain, the pages have got to turn, that i do have issues along the way, there are several issues in "rogue lawyer" that make the reader stop and think -- charlie: about the issue? yes, and that is popular fiction nowadays, what is my next -- incarceration, harsh sentences, wrongful convictions, and on and on and on. they are sentencing juveniles to life in prison, like one of brian stephenson's issues. those are great -- has -- heeyhole so also has issues about slavery reparations.

but you are also in a political place. what are you? are you a progressive? john: i would say a progressive, moderate democrat. charlie: more in the center than to the left? john: i would say i'm fiscally conservative, i really get sick of the spending in the waste that you see. i certain allegedly to in mississippi for two terms on a very much smaller scale, but there was a constitutional amendment and we had to balance the budget every year. what's wrong with that? and we learned to do that. most states have that. but i mean, i am pretty progressive on social issues -- charlie: exactly. opposed to the death penalty? john: yeah, later in life. not when i was a lawyer, but later in life. charlie: what changed? john: i went to death row and i

was in the holding room when they bring the guy out, the condemned guy out before a few hours, a ritual for a few hours, they put the guy in this room and they have him meet with his i wasual advisor and talking to the chaplain of death , and he looked at me and he said, mr. grisham, you are a christian, are you? and i said, yes. and he said, do you think jesus would condemn what we do here, killing like this? and i said, at this moment, sitting here, i hardly believe that he would condemn what we are doing. and he said, i agree. he said, if killing is wrong, how can we justify killing? and i thought, yeah. it is hard for me to come around after being raised in that very conservative, southern baptist meant tally where you have an

eye for an i and a tooth, all of this kind of stuff, it was very -- eye for an eye, a tooth, you know, all of this kind of stuff, it was very difficult. you cannot believe how brutal some of these crimes are, but to show compassion for these people, it is difficult, difficult, it is very difficult. charlie: the book is called "rogue lawyer" by john grisham. you have done it again. john: now available at fine bookstores everywhere. [laughter] charlie: online and everywhere. john: believe me, if it is today, it is everywhere. [laughter] charlie: we are still on the air, you've got a very hot prospect coming in. john: they've got almost everybody back from a very good team last year, said they are very experienced. preseason polls are pretty hit

or miss, but kentucky and north carolina and i think duke is four and five and duke is six -- charlie: but carolina is your team? john: oh yes, i pull for the tar heels, i go to every home game. i saw you there. they have a great young coach. tony bennett, he doesn't do the one and done thing, he has the kids for four years, really classy kids, good kids. he really teaches them. last year is a really amazing -- was a really amazing season, and they got better with every game, you could see them coming, but just oneyzewski is not and done, he wants to keep those kids for three years. he doesn't want to turn them for $1 million. you can't blame the coach or the kids, there are just bad rules. charlie: i think you should run for the governor of virginia. john: charlie, come on.

i am not getting back into politics. i have nothing to offer. i wouldn't last for or --ouldn't last 4 [laughter] ♪

charlie: laszlo bock, he is the

senior vice president of people operations at google. he has been there since 2006. since then the company has increased by almost 50,000 employees. of aannounced the creation parent holding company called alphabet earlier this year. is the author of a new book, discussing how you can live and lead. i am glad to have you here. laszlo: thank you so much, it is a pleasure. me about the book. this is an inside look as to how you shape how people work. laszlo: there are two pieces to that, one is that i just had a realization that we work more life,ny way else we do in you spend more time at work than you do with your loved ones, with your partner, with your friends, so at google, we have what can makeest

people more happy and productive. the idea of the book is, what have we learned and that we can share so we can work better everywhere? charlie: what did you discover? laszlo: one thing is that we make very bad decisions. we as individuals is that we make very bad decisions. charlie: about our own worklife? laszlo: about worklife, about hiring, we are all fundamentally go through life thinking we are right but we don't go back and test it to make sure it is right and thinking, i've got to fire all of these people, but they hire these people, right? so something is wrong, so we want to go through figuring what is wrong why we made those mistakes. charlie: jack welsh had said, and i found some resonance in andif you surprise someone

they are not surprise, then you have failed. manager,gain, as a that is a really uncomfortable conversation. telling somebody that they need to get better and coaching them, that you have an obligation to do it and it is a fair and just thing. charlie: you want to take power away from the manager? laszlo: as much as we can. charlie: and give it to the employees? laszlo: yes. charlie: that is a crucial ingredient of what you argue. laszlo: it is. charlie: it is about direction and the rest. laszlo: at google, we take away the power of manager about who you get to hire, you don't get to make that decision, you don't get to decide who to promote, you don't get to decide what to award somebody. manager should make people better and more effective. but people want to advance and they want these resort -- these

rewards of the you are going to hand out, so you are not going to see their best work. away is alling that that is left is to have the manager to try and help. if you go back to the fundamentalism about how you ople, they are either good or bad. in general, they are going to do the right thing, and every company you talk to, you say, well, do you care about your people? but as a practical matter, they don't treat them that way. it is not that managers are good, they just don't look at things the right way. if you are a manager, you don't know the details about the accounts, your account is out there do. charlie: but if you have the right kinds of relationships out there, you will know. laszlo: charlie: -- laszlo: but that is not as efficient of trusting them to do it right.

when you are an individual trying to do your job, you care about, what are my goals and how do i get there? the manager should absolutely inform how you should get there. we did this exhaustive winter review about performances. how often you do performances and how you set them. there is no clear answer of that. a manager is critical for that. but as an employee, you just want the manager to get out of your way's you can get the work done. but what happens when you are a manager is that you micromanage. not that you are a bad person but you want to make sure that the work gets done. charlie: you want to be able to empower the people you work with. laszlo: yes, there is research from the university of sheffield who looked at 50 studies and they were trying to figure out what improves productivity? is it stigma, is it what? he looked at all of these waserent things and he giving people general guidance and giving them the freedom of

getting things done. charlie: so far, it is getting people freedom and giving them the ability to delegate on the frontline. laszlo: it is important to have goals and make those goals transparent. select google, we have these things called objectives and key results. but every quarter, people set goals and it is manageable to everyone -- viewable to everybody in the company. you can see what everyone is doing. in either sort of high-level alignment. charlie: the most important thing is for everybody to understand how to make the team better, how their contribution, their contribution is essential to the overall contribution, it is like a football team. absolutely, but in the reality, most work places don't work that way. charlie: why is that? laszlo: i think part of it is people live in fear in a lot of workplaces, right? because anybody who is a manager also has a manager and they want

to make sure they look good and that they are doing the right thing. instead of doing the thing that they think is the right thing or the good thing to do for a customer, they will say, well, what does my manager want? and then they do that instead. you have all of these tiny management misalignments and it turns out to something getting out of place. charlie: you also talk about intellectual humility. how does that play? laszlo: it is one of the things that we actually recruit for in google. the thing is, you don't have to have regular humility, you can have a big ego, that is fine, but you have to have intellectual humility. churchill was being questioned by a reporter and he changed positions on something and he looked down from the podium and said, when the facts change, sir, so do my opinions. you need to be able to do that because you are never going to be able to learn and grow and we very much look for that. constant learning is key for growth and success.

timeie: so be open all the to new information and new ideas and new fax? -- facts? laszlo: that's right, and we were making mistakes all the time. you've got to be able to focus on what you will a conflict and your trajectory. we have a wide net in the sense that we have three mel -- million applications or year and the very best people are working for jobs. they are doing great work, they are in great environments, so we spend a lot of time and effort looking for those people and cultivating them overtime and hoping that someday, when they have a bad day at work, they will come and join us. charlie: what is that x factor that you look for even other person may not have gone to the right school or may not have had the right agreed or the widening of the right experiences? thee single -- laszlo:

single biggest predictor, and there is tons of academic research on this, and it is called general cognitive ability , but this is the ability to solve a wide range of problems and attack it. that is something we look for as number one. the second thing we look for is leadership, and that is the kind of thing we call him urgently leadership, and that is not just that you are president of the chess club, but when you see a problem, you step in and try to solve it, even if it is not your job, and more importantly, you relinquish power. if you look at the company, they could have run the company anyway they wanted when they founded it, but they sort of pull themselves back over time and the third thing is around liness, andl google we want people to think like the owners to think around the company. charlie: you have to think like

you have a vested interest and a success and it enhances you. is at: what is wild google, we try to cultivate that that every employee gets stock when they join and they get multiple stock each but there is his great grocery store chain in the northwest called wegmans and the workforce is largely high school graduate, the margins are 1% or 2% and it is a completely environment, yet they still in stall a sense of ownership in the workers. even though it is a very different business. charlie: let's go through 1-10. trust your people, if you let them free, they will amaze you. higher only people who are better than you. laszlo: well, the --

charlie: those of the people you learn from? are thewell, yes, those people you can do great work from, but it is kind of selfish as well. so you want to look for that, and if you want an institution, one of the things that we learned early on is that start and they start with a core of amazing people and the next set of people they hire out, the next concentric ring, they are pretty darn good, and the next ring out, they are just ok, and that each -- and each ring doesn't know what to look for. that is why corporate -- company performance is reversed. so their idea was to hire people who are better than you and the company will get stronger overtime. is don'tnumber four confuse development with managing performance, number five, focus on the two tales, you have to focus on your absolute worst and best

employees. absolute worst? laszlo: absolute worst. part of the premise is that you are doing hiring in an objective way, which reads you don't have to fire a lot of people. in our case, what happens is that we periodically identify the bottom 5%, that it doesn't affect their bonus or anything because you could have a team that is doing a good job. but you still have a bottom a person on that team and we tell them. so we give them the chance to get better. two thirds of the time they don't improve and we have them switch jobs, and 80% of the time there, they actually get a lot better. we have put them in the wrong job, it is not that they are bad people. make thement typically assumption that you have normal distribution, your top 10 in your bottom 10, if you look at sports, it follows a power line distribution. there are a few people who are so exceptionally good, so much

better than anybody else, think your kobe bryants, think your michael jordans, think your and we don't do arenas.in other charlie: some people would say that you need a couple of superstars, but you don't need five superstars, because if you have too many superstars, they will begin to step all over each other. laszlo: but that gets, again, to hiring and the kind of profile you are looking for. if you can hire people who can work together and they are actually humble and work together, it doesn't matter if they have huge egos, because they could have new information, and now they can say thank you i am going to do something differently, using it superstars. smalle: nudge a lot, signals can cause big changes. you wrote the book and you are the expert.

we think we are praising but we are not praising enough. in other words, you think you are praising someone, you think you are nudging, you think you are giving credit where credit is due, that in their perception, you are not recognizing enough. laszlo: the academic research on this shows that people feel negative feedback with 10 times the intensity of positive feedback and most positive feedback is also not specific. negative feedback is like, you screwed up this positive -- this feedback and you are a bonehead, and positive feedback is like good job, at a boy. so somebody needs to know that they did a specific good thing, so when you are sitting at this table, you lead a certain way,

and that specificity makes that positive feedback more meaningful. charlie: finally, rise of the, and this is nine, manage the rising expectation. laszlo: basically, there are two ways of running a business, make a lot of money. you treat people pretty bad and they are going to take the job and you can grind through them, and the other is to do what we have tried to do and what has tried to do, but what ends up happening is that we are always going to do these great things for you, and then they say, well, imagine you get a salary increase, and in three months, you spent it and it doesn't feel so good anymore, the you need to let people know that you are trying this, we are embarking on a journey, and we will let you know how it goes. charlie: number 10 is in joy and -- number 10 says to enjoy and go back to number one again. laszlo: yep you have to keep repeating it. i think what is nice about system hashat this

been run by people who clearly know what they are doing. what they are really exceptional back is they know how to see around the corner, 10 years out, 15 years out. charlie: a google work rule that will decide how you live and how you lead. laszlo bock. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

♪ betty: welcome to the bloomberg tv special, "china: behind the wall." i travel to beijing to visit china's historic statehouse. there, i spoke with one of the country's highest ranking officials. a former ambassador to the united states, a leader in the powerful state council, and china's top negotiator on foreign policy. we talked about the most pressing issues between the two countries, from cyber spying to the most recent market turmoil. burs