>> from our studios in new york, this is "charlie rose." charlie: "spectre" is the 24th film in the james bond series daniel craig returns did sam mendes also returns after the success after "skyfall" which grossed $1 billion worldwide.

bond faces off against a global criminal organization, "spectre." here is the trailer. >> you have no authority. none. mexico city. what were you doing there? >> i was taking holiday. >> what is going on james? they say you are finished. i think you are just getting started. >> magnificent. zero to 60 in 3.2 seconds. >> what do you have in mind? >> make me disappear. >> tell me where he is. >> he is everywhere.

>> you are crossing over into a place where there is no mercy. >> you are protecting someone. >> get away from me. >> why should i trust you? >> i'm your best chance of staying alive. this organization, do you know what it is called? >> its name is "spectre." >> you know who links them all? >> me. >> welcome james. you came across me so many times. you never saw me. what took you so long? >> is this really what you want? living in the shadows? hunting, being hunted?

always alone? >> i don't stop to think about it. >> it was me, james. the author of all of your pain. charlie: i am pleased to have daniel craig and sam mendes back at this table. how hard was it to top "skyfall?" sam: we were determined to make a different movie. almost everything about this movie, we shot this on film -- charlie: why did you do that?

sam: there was a romance about this movie i wanted to try and achieve. it's a love story. but a nostalgia to the film as well. there is a softness, a grandeur. i found digital on sky fall in daylight scenes to be harsh. you spend time trying to soften it. and there is a routine. [laughter] [indiscernible] sam: i needed a few extra pages. daniel: you spend all this time trying to make digital look like film. why not use film? charlie: choose film. did you want him to do this?

did you get on your knees? >> all of those things. i was desperate for him. because i felt that we had started something with "skyfall" and i had the pleasure of working with sam on road to perdition. i had a small part in that. i had fun doing it. but i felt like we were just starting to learn something about each other and working together that felt satisfying and creative. sam has been kind to allow me to have an opinion. charlie: you really want to make this. you know it is going to be

gangbusters. is part of what you want to do how can i do this better, different, stretch the boundaries of bond? we went deep into his childhood. sam: both of us were agreeing, we would not want to do any of this and less we were doing all of those things. you have to push it in some way. there is no source material. we are trying to invent this from scratch. there is a huge amount of work that goes on with trying to bring a story together. that is where the work is done. we would sit down together and i don't know about you but there is something that started to snowball. the creative's started coming into the room and the enthusiasm because of "skyfall", and a sense of a lot of goodwill, people came in firing on all cylinders. charlie: who is in the room?

sam: the truth is, it was odd for me because as a director you are used to being the one in control ultimately. to come onto a franchise where you have someone you know and is your friend, who knows more about it than you do, who has made two bond movies and played the part before, there was -- i was asking daniel to play the role, playing catch-up. he is weak throughout. he is upbeat behind every one. in the end of "skyfall", he has failed. i loved working with him but he wasn't released into the role because it was like putting him into a straitjacket. on top of that he had more experience with me -- than me.

we want to let each other let rick and away. at the beginning i said you are ahead of everybody. no one knows what he is up to. that is going to allow us much more freedom. this allows him more freedom, and any time you have an idea, just do it. you don't even have to ask me. if you have a line, just do it. that freedom, the second and third time he did the role, with harrison, they stuck less and less in the script. you get a shorthand going and you just know that you know the world properly. there is no standoff anymore. you are fully invested. all of the people returned. everyone returned.

not only actors like ray finds, but also crew members, everybody. and where there was a sense of "skyfall", can this guy do an action movie? is it going to be in our house bond? they just wanted to do the best we can. we are all wearing our "skyfall" jackets and t-shirts. they would have gone everywhere with us. that is unusual but it is because we went and made a movie before with everyone else. charlie: give an example of where you went off script. does anything come to you? daniel: obviously in interview situations very little. >> one of my favorite sections of the movie for me, the most difficult thing is to combine in the middle of bruising action, a love story. one of the things i was concerned about and worried about was trying to have something that was delicate and

intimate. we are lucky because lea gives a stunning performance. a lot of what daniel said, he just invented it. there are lines throughout that scene. just speaking as he thinks. there are funny lines also. a good example, a rolls-royce is coming out of the desert. it's a completely surreal image. she says what is that? the line is, it looks like our ride or something like that. daniel said that is a 1948 rolls royce. that is the only thing you can get away with in a bond movie. it's a better line on so many levels.

he wasn't quite committed because he thought and mike committed to it? am i allowed? i said it is great. having the courage to not feel judged by me, that is a good example. a good example of how you can shift tones without not away from dialogue but in the beginning he collapses, he falls through a building. he was supposed to land on his feet. i said before that why don't you land on the sofa. he said great. where is that? that is the first time -- it allows the audience to say even though it is serious, the last movie had a toughness to it, a grimness to it. it was not always certain we were allowed to. i want to be clear from the beginning we wanted to loosen up a bit and have a bit more mischief. charlie: what did you want to add?

vulnerability? daniel: my only intention was ever to sort of -- the center of a big movie, it doesn't matter how outrageous it is. if you believe in the central characters, you're going to have a better time. i think she is flawed. he kills people for a living. he lives alone. he sleeps with lots of women. i find that fascinating. that appeals to me. charlie: and why is he like that? daniel: and also, you have to see someone who has weaknesses on screen. otherwise they are two-dimensional. charlie: and you want them to be three at least. daniel: at least three. charlie: people have noticed there is a serialization, with the movies. >> a happy accident.

by the time sam did "skyfall" it seemed to make sense. we came to do this movie and we wanted to tie up some loose ends. they fitted well. sam: even daniel was uncertain about the freudian touches of the last movie. seeing the reason for bond becoming bond as a child. are we going to get away with this? i was not sure we were. now it looks like it was a given but we were showing a character who is aging. everyone is saying you are getting too old. daniel was entirely 100% about. [laughter] on top of that we had a character dying which is unheard of in a bond movie. i thought we would be hit with

we want escapism. we don't want to be told people are aging. we are told they don't have to worry about this stuff. so the fact that people embraced it and allowed us to go further to tell a second story, -- obliquely. charlie: there are things that seem to be needed. the chase scene at the beginning. you have to do something dramatic in the first three or four minutes. or not? daniel: you are shortchanging people if you don't. charlie: that is interesting. because they want that and expect that? daniel: because it sets the town. i think that when i look back at

movies, as a kid in the cinema, those first five minutes or whatever it is. sam: 10 minutes. charlie: before he is doing something. daniel: before the credit sequence. sam: daniel sarah has been around 10 minutes. for me the first bond movie was north by northwest. hitchcock has the best line about casting the stars. why are you always casting jimmy stewart? because it saves me 10 minutes of exposition. the audience has a relationship already. that is true with bond. they already know bond. that gives you the freedom and a bond movie. for 10 minutes you don't really have to tell them what is going on. you can offer to play catch-up with no explanation and expect them to shadow the central character. i felt the freedom of that. it was not a burden.

charlie: the other saying is a fascinating villain. you have to have somebody who is beyond. yes. he has to be smarter and tougher? sam: i think it's an interesting thing. this time we wanted to go to the top.

we wanted there to be no one above this person. charlie: the head of "spectre." sam: absolutely. we wanted to raise the stakes. charlie: do you share that? raise the stakes, do something with it? >> i remember hearing something about sam, that we would look at each other and go is this good enough? what we have just done? we did a number of times. we would look at each other and go not happy. charlie: you'd see it in his eyes? sam: you have to let it sit for a bit. scenes that are wobbly sometimes turn out fine.

both scenes, a scene in "skyfall" which is pivotal between bond and m that we reshot, the equivalent scene with bond and money penny we reshot because it was a springboard for the story on so many levels. we shot them early and then watched the movie develop. we said i'm going to go back. i did leaving go back to the end of the sentence and he said that's fine. charlie: i was going to ask that. how often do you want to do that? daniel: less than you think. there is a relief sometimes when you have done stuff and you -- there are some things you are nervous about but when it is clear, and there is the time it is a luxury that we did it. charlie: how do you know when you have done enough bond?

[laughter] daniel: i don't know. charlie: you will know when you know? daniel: i'll know when i'll know. i can honestly say i have enjoyed making this movie more than the others put together. charlie: all the other bond movies. you enjoyed making "spectre.". daniel: probably because of him and the relationship we sort of have. the trust thing. sam had my back. i could zone out. my tendency was on the past movie is was i felt like i needed to control everything. i'm the guy in the front, who has to be in charge. sam took that away from me and

allowed me to be an actor which i haven't done for a long time. it is a hard one. sam: it was a really tough shoot because it was long. lots of countries. it was grueling. people were injured and all sorts of stuff. but it was more fun. it was more exciting. the thing about doing another one, you are running a marathon. do you want to run another marathon? just let me -- [indiscernible] sit down and feel good about finishing and then i will have a think. but it is a marathon. charlie: why does bond have a hold on audiences?

is it the character, or -- you are the guy who knows it. daniel: i have grown to know what it is. i was a rabbit in the headlights when i did casino royale. the producers, i said i don't know how i'm going to do this. this is a tall order. i don't know why you are casting me. it is the last thing i expected. but if you allow me to get involved, to be part of the process, i can do it. because i can feel like -- i want to be a filmmaker. i don't want to be just the gun for hire. i want to feel like i am part of the process. because i have to invest myself in this, everything i have in this. this is a once-in-a-lifetime chance.

they don't come around very often. they let me have it and be part of it. that has been a huge learning curve for me. i have developed more as a filmmaker. i want to produce, i want to find material. charlie: but you have roles you still want to play. daniel: doing "spectre" has reminded me how much i love doing this. i've been doing it for 30 years. i love acting. charlie: would you have been willing to direct bond if it was not daniel craig? sam: the reason i came on board is -- this is no secret but they asked did i think my friend, daniel craig would make a good bond and i said no. i didn't. at that point i couldn't equate what bond had become.

urbain, eyebrow raising, sauve. with this nutter i worked with in chicago. then i saw casino royale. it was like the return of something. it was not an accident. it was a great story. they had the courage to remove camp from the franchise along with supporting characters. daniel: not that i'm not camp. charlie: especially in the ads. i've seen you selling. [laughter] charlie: i should take a look at these clips. here it is. [laughter] i will do one. roll tape.

[sounds of fighting] charlie: [inaudible] and physical by the way. daniel: that is just the way i have started them. i actually find it fun.

that sequence itself, we had six weeks of for rehearsal. off and on during other parts of rehearsal. it ends up being a dance routine. but it is choreography. it is a lot of fun. david in that scene is a supreme athlete and a joy to work with. he does not break into a sweat. i'm literally like -- [laughter] it is what he does. i'm just trying to get out of the way. charlie: what was the challenge of shooting that? the camera work. sam: i am very old-fashioned with action to be frank. i'm a believer in continuity, not crossing the line, screen direction remaining the same see can follow where every punch is going. i'm not a fan of throw some cameras up. broken mirrors.

it makes it very pedestrian to shoot and very satisfying i think to watch but it is slower. in casino royale he did everything for real and you believed in the jeopardy and he was viable and capable of beating someone to a pulp. he has had to continue that. that moves through 4 carriages and it is a significant set piece. it was really satisfying when you put it together but to shoot it is painstaking. charlie: in "skyfall" was a hard to kill off judi dench? sam: it was difficult because there was something about her spirit. i love her. she is an extraordinary person. like a good luck charm.

she makes everyone better. she is one of those actors who is incapable of doing a bad take. everyone is good. she has an amazing effect on everyone around her. i asked -- charlie: how did you? sam: we have to tell her agent first so she can break the news rather than break it to her over lunch. and she arrived and looked at me and said here i and tear stained and livid. [laughter] but she took it. i think it was tricky. it was difficult. it was part of her life for 20 years. it is an extended family. barbara makes it so. it is difficult for someone like that to feel like they are not part of it anymore. charlie: how do you find a balance?

you are going to do othello. what is your plan for finding when to do it? charlie: what did you knew? daniel: i lost my acl. i have great people around me. charlie: in this scene? sam: and it's that take. charlie: could i see that i looked? daniel: no. no. [indiscernible] that gives me some time off and that is the way i am going to deal with the next six months. then i want to do othello. we start rehearsing next year. charlie: it's opening where? daniel: at the manhattan theater workshop. new york city workshop. charlie: and one more scene. this is number three. let's see them together.

>> information is all, is it not? for example, you must know by now that the double low program is dead, which leads me to speculate why you came. so, james, why did you come? >> to kill you. >> and i thought you came here to die. >> it is a matter of perspective. charlie: wow. [laughter] daniel: fun, isn't it? charlie: it is. what else is next? other than getting well. daniel: not thinking about james bond, i think we are in that boat. charlie: how long does it take? sam: two and a half years. charlie: total? sam: 6-9 months working on the

script while doing other things and then complete for two years. with the pressure on big movies to deliver, movies take longer to make these days. if you are doing something for real. it involves traveling the world, which we did. charlie: there is no smart way to ask this. are you already think about doing it again or will you do for that? daniel: it is literally one of those -- things have been said and i've said in the press. two days after i finished filming. no, of course not. [laughter] i would work with him again tomorrow. i love the family i work with on

this. i've had an amazing time doing this one. but i need six months. literally just to think about something else and clear my mind. i don't want to begin a debate because it becomes about something else. we have spent two years producing this movie. we are very proud of it and want as many people to see it. all people are talking about is who is going to be the next james bond. sam: one's life is not a democracy by a dictatorship. however much they may try to persuade you. charlie: you are doing other stuff? sam: no. i'm unemployed. charlie: thank you for coming. it is great to see you again. ♪

charlie: we continue with sam mendes. he is an academy award-winning director. he directed "spectre." his previous film "skyfall" became the most successful bond film of all time. it is scheduled to go on a national tour beginning in january of 2000 exchange.

i am pleased that he continues with us. is this something that interest you not only as a director, producer, but as an entrepreneur? sam: it's not me producing it. it is the roundabout theatre. when i came over to new york with no track record in this town, and todd said we want to make this show, i said you can only do it if we can find a nightclub. eventually we found the sondheim. a crane fell on the theater. then we moved it to studio 54. that kind of dogged belief in the show is what made it. i came to do it on broadway with

michelle williams and emma stone, and sienna miller. this is just an extension of that. it is a show i love, a piece i love. i am proud of the production but it is a great piece of musical theater, one of the greats. charlie: what makes it that? sam: a combination of the way music is used throughout. it has politics. a moment when the world changed. it does it in that kind of incredibly condensed way. but on a base level it has great tunes, unbelievable characters, a literary pedigree. it has these short stories.

on the other hands, the great era of fossae and the giants of the 70's. it has all of those things and it is the best of all of them. charlie: when you think of yourself as a director you think of yourself as a theater director? sam: not anymore. for a while i did. but doing the bond movies and working on that scale, i do feel comfortable on a movie set now. i do feel like i know what i am doing. charlie: it is as satisfying? sam: yes -- but a different part of the process. reversals are everything. in theater that is where the creation takes place. in film it is the other end of the process, the editing room where you feel in control. charlie: do you find yourself saying we did not get what i needed?

sam: all the time. all the time. you are constantly dancing around what you have missed. hopefully you have enough that you actually did get but i don't think many directors can bear to watch their own movies after they have finished them. all you see are flaws. charlie: you can't watch them more than once or twice. sam: when it is finished, some movies from the day i finished them i have never seen again. maybe on cable for 10 minutes. then there are some that you go back and revisit because you are interested. charlie: primarily because you see things you wished you had done, or simply that you have done it? sam: it is difficult to explain. you feel resentful of them in a way. you are so much a part of them and then you have to leave them behind. but you can't see them with clarity for a few years.

sometimes you say i'm asked a proud of that film. at the time i was confused and conflicted about it and member it badly but now -- sometimes it's the other way around. you can't wait to see it and then it is disappointing. charlie: i thank you did this and listed 10 pieces of advice for aspiring directors. sam: young directors thinking of directing an action movie. it was tongue-in-cheek. charlie: get in touch with your inner 12-year-old. he or she was an interesting kid. is there something to that? sam: oh yes. for me, doing bond was going back to myself, you have to find the kid that was taken by that world, the world of adults and

danger, and sexuality, and weirdness, that when i was 12, it was a thrilling moment. i remember it vividly. to try and take away your ingrained snobbery, which is there to some degree and has been there with bond over the years because it is considered a b-movie. there is all that, trying to find a way to view it. charlie: you said you can only ever point the camera at one thing at a time. sam: i think there is a tendency -- charlie: to try to do too much. sam: at the same time. it's a personal thing. some film makers create the kind of whirlwind of energy which is to do with having multiple cameras but i can only

concentrate on one thing at a time. if you don't you're going to work faster. you are not really sure what you're looking at. charlie: you are playing roulette with someone else's money. if you bet it all on black, you need to explain why. sam: yes. you knew to be able to explain. not that you need to explain, but you need to have the particular see -- articulate of why you need 8000 costumed extras in mexico city and three helicopters. why 2000 when be ok. charlie: this is a huge point in life. if you don't know it well enough to explain it, then you don't know it well enough. whatever you want to do. sam: i think that is true. the other thing is you have to

-- charlie: some things are not explainable. sam: but it is a total privileged to make a film. you are using someone else's money. you write a novel, you just sit down and you're not costing anyone anything. someone may pay you in advance but basically you are in isolation and you have the freedom. you can't work as a director unless someone pays an enormous amount of money to make the film you want to make. charlie: making an action sequence is only interesting when you are in the cutting room. i mentioned this, up until then it is the most tedious thing you will ever do. do you mean that? sam: yes. action is really -- you have to be so meticulous. you are doing action for real. i don't think it is a crusade as set -- so much as a fact that audiences are more engaged when

they feel it is really happening. you are trying to strike between cgi and real special-effects and it is tricky when you're in a bond world. but yeah, it is slow. you have to disconnect your impatience. i was frustrated when i started doing sky fall. my rhythm is a theater rhythm. i like to shape it. you can't do that with action. it is very slow. once you do it and realize how to put it together, it starts becoming interesting. charlie: on the day, the prepared, but be prepared to make stuff up. [laughter] sam: yes. that is what i was saying with daniel. however much you plan, and how vast the structure is that is

supporting you, and are thousands of people, you have to remain free in front of the camera. it doesn't matter how much money you are spending, if what is happening in front of the camera is not interesting, it is meaningless. you do have to maintain an improvisation element even as everything else is well-planned. charlie: do you find the best actors are like daniel? that -- sam: no, every actor is different. bond is a difficult part to play. one inch to the left, one inch to the right emotionally and it is to real, too casual, to devil may care, to camp. that suit is a straitjacket.

you have to hold yourself, you have to look good, look cool. you're a style icon. and also to give an emotional reality to the character is tricky. everyone has an opinion. every single person out there. bond should be this, bond should be that. he was terrified when he did casino royale at the time. but i think, i remember as a director you have the same thing. i went to turkey on the last movie and i got out of the car, we are thrilled to have you here, there he nice, there is -- they are so much better now that they are not trying to be funny. then i went in 10 steps and the woman said are you going to put jokes in this one? everyone has a different version. charlie: you say you need to when you are choosing collaborators, do not listen to

the people who tell you yes but i've never done a big movie. if they are any good they will learn. sam: there is a definite suspicion of bringing people, encouraging them to migrate from television into a large scale moviemaking. and i think that sometimes the studio will say they've never done a big movie. they've done a great bit of cinematography but it seems crazy now because they did sky fall and it was suspicion of bringing roger deacons in. but he's a great cinematographer. isn't he arty? and tom is newman who did the score. that is how it works sometimes. that feeling that there are people that do big and small, i don't believe that at all. charlie: you need to learn to tune out the white noise. you cannot please everyone. sam: and there is white noise.

you have to embrace the dialogue with the audience, which is a little bit like listening to the white noise, because if you make a normal movie, you have basically -- you make the film, you make a trailer, you release the trailer comment you get awareness of the film and then the movie comes out. bond, there is a press conference. they review the press conference, the song, the singer, the poster, the trailer, the teaser trailer. the choice of director. everything is a dialogue and you have to embrace that. that is part of the process. a movie like "spectre" can compete with something like "game of thrones" or "mad men" who have a weekly dialogue with their audience. at the same time, don't read the reviews.

charlie: would you be prepared to do something like "game of thrones?" sam: god yes. charlie: because you have -- sam: the story. a 40 hour story. what could be better? that is what gives you a kick. i get a kick out of story. many of the best films are over the last 20 years has been -- i challenge anyone to find anything better than "the wire" for "the sopranos." it is an unbelievable piece of work on any level. "breaking bad." it's not news to anyone. i think -- and to the detriment of movies because the middle ground of movies has migrated to television. the movies i made when i started out, i could not make those movies with a major studio now for the money i spent even then.

they are either very small or very big. there is nothing in the middle. that is because of television being so strong. charlie: the home for things in the middle? sam: there is a kind of fearlessness about television now which is amazing. audiences are embracing it. that is not hollywood backing off of serious movies. it is audience is not going to serious movies. they fulfill a demand. if they go to television that is what they are going to make. charlie: tarantino, spielberg, scorsese, jj, paul tom is anderson shoot on film. there is a reason. sam: it is not about film is better or worse. i've shot in digital. i shot "skyfall" in digital. there should be a choice. it has to be preserved. almost the biggest loss has

already happened. a film projection is now dead. that is something that should be mourned. the end of an era. but it is amazing to work on films. charlie: you are trying to surf the big wave but be prepared to wipe out when you catch it. it feels like nothing else. how many times have you caught it? sam: half a dozen times in each movie when you feel like this is nothing better. we did a scene in mexico city. in order to achieve the shot thousands of people, thousands of people have to be working together an absolute unison, all at the same time. when it is done each year that goes up, the excitement for people who work on the crew who have never seen anything like this, that is a thrill.

i was aware as i was doing it i will probably never do it again. it is a particular, different emotional buzz than you get from a scene that has been beautifully rendered by two great actors, and the cameras capture the magic. it is weekly -- it is equally valid. charlie: when you get excited don't be afraid to leave out of your chair and sing the bond theme. sam: we've all done it. charlie: with respect to you, you have enjoyed this experience. you have learned things. do you learn anything that affects what you do on stage? sam: not really. it's totally different. but what i did on stage did a fresh -- affect this. i look at it now and i can see it is in all sorts of little areas.

i have been doing the greatest blinding seen in the history of literature. but it doesn't always work the other way. i love the theater for the opposite of what i described. calm, privacy, focus. the purity of it. the story that can go the distance between the idea and the story is so short. charlie: do you have any of session? any dream, any sense but before i dive, this i have to do. sam: it is all sport related. it is all -- charlie: swim the english channel? sam: no, the things that fascinate me and still make me -- i love what i i do. i'm a fan of great managers and

players, great musicians, all of those things i feel like it's pushed away when you make these films. i would love to have an opportunity to follow some of those people to tell those stories for real. i would love to make documentaries, to do things that are close to reality. charlie: about people that have achieved a level of greatness? sam: that i admire. charlie: to capture what it is -- to capture their being, their process, their mindset? their preparation, all that? sam: it is interesting. it is what you do when you try to get to the center of somebody and work out what makes them tick. you have to choose carefully. and also, to remind people that

there is still wonder in the world. i know that sounds corny but there is -- we live with remarkable people and there are remarkable people out there. i think that is something that film can do very well. charlie: someone said to me there are two kinds of profiles. the tragedy of it all, or the wonder of it all. sam: yeah, that is brilliant. charlie: thank you. great to see you. thank you. sam: as always. charlie: sam mendes, director of "spectre." thank you for joining us. ♪ narrator: the contemporary art

world is vibrant and booming as never before. it is a 21st century phenomenon, a global industry in its own right. "brilliant ideas" looks at the artists at the heart of this, artists with a unique power to astonish, challenge, and surprise. in this episode, theaster gates.