♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. mitchum as here, he is a historian, and executive director at random house, his latest book is "destiny and power: the american odyssey of george herbert walker bush." it draws on extensive conversations with the former president, his family and inner circle. offersthe older bush assessments of dick cheney, donald rumsfeld, and even his son. there has been praise. the new york times says the book

reflects the qualities of both subject and biographer. miss, balanced, deliberative, and a deep appreciation of history and the personalities who shape it. all of that being said, i am pleased to have my friend, and the friend of this broadcast, jon meacham. where do we start. this has been a 17 year project. jon: 17 year odyssey. to my mutual friends, immediately found president bush to be more cockaded and interesting and conversation then the caricature in the press. charlie: how so? jon: the quiet, consistent charisma. i understand how he became president. it was person, by person, by person. always paying attention to you. the other guy.

wanted to make sure you are comfortable. part of that fundamental political transaction. what is the fundamental political transaction with politics? you can trust me with your fate. almost instantly i saw this is how he did it. charlie: the idea of a biography . jon: it developed over the next few years. me unconditional access to his vice presidential and presidential diaries. probably the last documents of their kind. charlie: why is that? jon: said -- special prosecutors, stuff being subpoenaed. he was not sure what he would do with it. he occasionally tensions -- they are audio diaries. late at night come early in the , on air on marine one force one, you can hear the chopper blades going as he

decides he will say, "this will not stand." i think it was therapeutic. he would hate that word. he never wanted to be on the couch. he never complained to anyone else, including this is bush bush the burdens -- misses about the burdens of the presidency. no one wants to get the president of the united states say o woe is me. the one person he could complain, himself. charlie: there was that one moment, which was a revelation for me, anyone who knows anything about politics in which he becomes a bit despondent. after the war had been one. this is the first gulf war. what is interesting, this is not speculation. this is from the words of the man himself. jon: our friend, evan thomas many of us have to

speculate what was going through their minds. here we know. charlie: he tells us. jon: he never celebrated the victory in the gulf. he was way ahead of the pundits. he knew that artificial 89% approval rating would not last. he knew the economy would be the essential thing. he wished there had been a battleship missouri surrender. he did not like that saddam was in power. charlie: that was his decision. coalition --ation he put together with a lifetime of experience with telephone calls. halfother called him halve bush. perfectly trained diplomat. first president, post-cold war world. the united states is a lucky place.

man and moment met. we needed a perfectly trained -- charlie weis let's go back to the respondents -- charlie: let's go back to the despondent. s. said, the american people deserve someone with energy. at some level he realized he had almost finished the work he had been put on earth to do. he was getting sick. -- a hearteart episode based on his thyroid. his thyroid was overactive. the medication for that -- the dosage was a very hard to get right through 1991, 1992, that is something else that is new. a second heart episode right before the 1992 convention.

he says, if i thought it was very serious i would have to go in to the press room and say i am not running, i am not sure the convention would do. the emotional life of a president, which fascinates people like us so much is so often something we have to to toe around. -- tiptoe around. he gives us everything. part of what surprised me the most about him it was how emotional this seemingly buttoned-down new england wasp was. charlie: a man of manners. joe going -- jon: not walking around like a peacock. choicea strange career for a man whose mother said i never want to hear about the great i am. say, i hitme in and a triple, she would say, how did the team do?

charlie: you explain it because it is not politics, but service. jon: you and i have talked about this a lot, the tension between wanting to be number one, to win, to make his mark in whatever game it is, including politics. this ambient sense of service that goes directly to back -- directly back to the sense that the founders had. charlie: that is part of what he was despondent about. he doesn't understand the new generation. he doesn't understand may have the stuff he believed in. jon: i nearly fell out of my chair when i listen to the audio of november 3 to november 4, 1992, the night he lost the presidency to bill clinton. barbara is asleep in one room. he gets up, goes into the living room, turns on a tape recorder and says, duty, honor, country, i always thought that was what americans were made of.

quite clearly that is not. i don't see how i lost to a draft dodger. those are tough words. the remarkable thing, this goes to your point about his manners, even at his darkest hours, when he is dictating into this recorder, he will talk himself back up into the game. at the end be in three he says, what do you do the next few days, you do it with grace, you finish strong. you say your prayers. you never let them see you down. he said his code was one of camouflaged competition. the ambition was not to be seen, but burn brightly. at first appears in his andover school teacher report. charlie: they say what? jon: they say he works hard, but never once anyone to know it -- wants anyone to know it.

charlie: you decide this is a worthy subject. first contact with the bush people, did they say, thank god, jon meacham. we have been waiting for a man like you to show up. jon: i don't remember the pickup. there was skepticism because i had been, for a long time and newsweek. you may remember in the fall of 1987, newsweek did a cover story saying, fighting the wimp factor. he hated that. it was a long conversation about it. interestingly -- charlie: at dinner? -- us some biographical jon: based in the winters in houston -- they spend the winters in houston.

i think president bush was more for it perhaps than other people. charlie: barbara? she made a condition. jon: she would not give you diaries unless you allowed her to approve cut -- quotes. i took 90 pages to her, she took nothing off of the record. presidential families go, i could not imagine a more gracious, open, and welcoming group. they are comfortable with what they did. the 43rd president was not a big fan of this project. he said that publicly. he was skeptical of me. finally -- the case i was, it was my initiative this is a man who needs to be seen as his own figure. not simply as precursor.

at some point king david was just king david. he was not a forerunner. i read the diaries. classic george herbert walker bush, he said read the diaries, i want to make sure you think something is there. he wants said to his chief of staff, what if he just finds an empty deck of cards? things me in the two that were heartbreaking. you cannot hear other presidents say, he said sometimes i feel i between thes, lost glory of reagan and the trials and relations of my son. the other key element i think was when he argued that he didn't know that there was enough there there. meaning hisre there historical record?

jon: he worried there was not that much stuff to write about him. frome a note from him 2008. after i published a biography of andrew jackson. he writes, it is a little overwhelming to think i would be following a lion. because i called the book, "american lion." he said to me afterward, because i written about winston churchill, andrew jackson, he fdr, i am notnot churchill, i am not a lion. what he was was a unique american odyssey. we shall not see his like again. appeal is that he did not think he was -- he does not understand even to this hour, he does not fully appreciate the impact he had on the country. charlie boy and the impact was

-- charlie: and the impact was? jon: he ended the cold war. he navigated the sense that the russians did not feel that he was jumping all over them. for those who think the personal does not matter in the political, our friend henry is not matter it if they like you, it does not matter because of nations are not a character of people, not true. belief, theyush's do matter. jon: if you want to see a direct line between the character of bush, go to november, 1989, when the berlin wall was falling. he was able to put himself in the shoes of the hardliners of the soviet union. he was able to think, what would seen asng if i were

sticking it in gorbachev's year -- ear. this is going to be tough. there is national pride, there could have been a backlash. he took in a more -- enormous amount of pressure. he of the people saying, does not get the poetry of the fall of the wall. it is insane. george herbert walker bush understood the poetry of that. he understood more importantly, that poetry is not all politics is about. he had to govern. charlie: one of the things that connected the first world war to the second was resentment. what areou asked him, you proudest of, he says german unification. because of the life he led. he understood that the europeans

-- thatcher, others were very wary of a reunified germany. honeorge orwell said, the is always at your feet or your throat. he watched japan become a great ally and trading partner to the out-of-state. he believed -- to the united states. and was willing to move past history. you look at someone like bush and you see someone hopelessly attached to the past, but he was attached to the future. charlie: phi beta kappa? jon: yes. he graduated from high school, he turned 18, and then he took the old to be a navigator -- aviator.

on pearl harbor he considered joining the air force to get to the fight more quickly. he immediately joins up in june. he becomes an aviator, he flies bombers. he flies 58 combat missions. down,urday, 1944, he shot finished his mesh -- mission, he has two crew men he tells them to hit the silk. he gets out this way, he bails out. he is almost decapitated. the flame keeps going, he gashes his head. his life raft fortunately landed near him. on lifeguard duty picked them up. i asked him, do you think about the menu lost, delta laney and ted white. charlie: crew members?

jon: crew members who lost. he said on many occasions. he said i think about them every day. why was i spared? did i do enough? he did, by all accounts. why was i spared? is one of the key factors that led him to the pinnacle of political power. he realized every moment he was given, he needed to make himself commiserate with that sacrifice. add to that, the loss of their daughter. they lost robin. charlie: four years old. neither of them had heard the word leukemia until the diagnosis was given to them. they finished the war, gone to yale for 2.5 years, got in a red

studebaker, stopped in abilene, texas. he orders chicken fried steak, is chickenure if his fried like a chicken or a st eak. he starts his business. robin becomes sick. he goes back and forth to new york as they try to treat her. he wrote a letter to his mother about robin in the late 1950's. he said, we need a girl. we need a dollhouse to stand against the fourth. .- forts we need someone who when she gets into bed is not rough and tumble. it is an amazing letter. i asked him to read it. we were sitting in his office in houston, he read it.

he broke down in physical sobs. loudly in fact that his chief of staff came into the room. she said, why did you want him to do that? i said, because if you want to know someone's heart -- before i could finish the president finished my sentence by saying, you have to know what breaks it. i asked him, what did you learn from all of this? he said, life is unpredictable and fragile. i am convinced that the loss of those two men in the pacific and the loss of robin and fused this life code to always look forward. to make yourself worthy of your being spared. a created in him, what his parents had already laid the four -- thewere -- strive to serve and succeed.

wasid to him once, if it all about service, you could have opened a soup kitchen. he said, that is right. michael has already -- has always been to be the captain of the team. , between of his life service and doing what it took to succeed in politics. ♪

-- the: family, but thing that has come out is the relationship between 1943 and 1941 -- 43 and 41. we now know he had great resentment against donald rumsfeld and dick cheney. dick cheneyhought had an army of people in the white house. and rumsfeld, who he had non--- long not liked. thing, in making says, itticisms, he was my son that was responsible. it is classic. they are the only criticisms that i know of that he is made. -- has made. he says the buck stops there.

what i think is important to understand, president bush, when he decides cheney and criticizing more style than substance. 43 and 41 were closer together. charlie white the idea that saddam should be removed -- charlie: with the idea that saddam should be removed. we have the letter he wrote his son saying, ratifying. what did bother him was the swaggering style. the criticism of 43 was that he should not have said axis of evil. he did not think that would be seen as historically benefiting. these, for made in 2008, 2009, 2010 when there was much conversation as you recall of

expanding the war on terror possibly to iran. that is the context. when i took -- i took everything, cheney and rumsfeld saw all this. i gave everyone a full chance to respond. surprised and intrigued. he said, my father never said any of this to me. he said, my rhetoric could get hot at times. he joked and said, they understood me mentally. it is a generational and cultural -- charlie: was it last night you were in dallas at the bush library. bushre interviewed by, three -- 43. what was that like? jon: he was curious why i chose

to write about dad, or his father as he put it. what did i think made him tick. charlie white was he genuinely curious -- charlie: was he genuinely curious? jon: what he was mainly curious about -- that he did not know the answer to was what was in the diaries. what surprised you. charlie: that brings up the story, he, bush 43 wanted the diaries for his own book. he could not get access because bush 41 had given them to you, true? jon: i think there is an element of truth. charlie: what is the element that is not? jon: my first-hand knowledge is that the diaries had been given to me for the use of this

biography, and an ultimate scholarly edition of all of the additions. that had been our agreement. george herbert walker bush stood by that. charlie: did he say to his son, i'm sorry, i have given them to jon meacham. jon: i don't know. i doubt that conversation took place. the story i understand to be true is that 43 was not happy. his rhetoric could get hot. i don't have first-hand knowledge. charlie: don't you assume it is true? you wanted -- he wanted to write about his father. his father. he wanted to show things that no one else knew. here is the one thing that would've shown the world his own.

jon: here is some speculation. if president bush 43 self describes his project in his biography of 41 as a love letter. i have a feeling that if that were decision was taken, it had -- if it had been taken, they would stick by the agreement with me, that as an independent biographer, i believe the contents of those diaries would have more credibility and impact if they were coming from someone who was not in the dna pool. charlie: this is an admiring her graffiti -- biography. -- charlie: the criticism notable is the criticism that he denied any knowledge of enron contra -- iran-contra.

jon: he did. about hises me reaction to iran-contra is he was in the loop. he famously said he was not in the loop. it was machiavelli and. an.machiavelli charlie: he thought it was ok to lie if the ends justify the justified the means? it was supposed to open up channels with iran. he initially denied it was true. he then became an advocate for getting everything out as soon as possible. he would shift his story. some days he would say, i cannot tell you what i told ronald reagan. some days he would say, well i express reservations.

you, hehink it tells was an old spymaster. he was a realist. he wanted to be loyal to reagan. this was breaking in 1986, on the eve of the 1988 campaign. believese i use is, i that his reaction to iran-contra was unworthy of his essential character. he is a gentleman, a man of honor, and in the crucible he opticd to stick eight -- eight on an important decision. meetings that he later said he didn't think they were against it. schultz or caspar weinberger could understand how george bush could say that.

i have a feeling that president bush selectively remember these things. the other criticism here. you have to judge the whole. thing, he waser against the 1964 civil rights act. fundamental piece of american scripture at this point. what did he do in 1968 when he had gotten into congress? he voted for open housing to lift racial discrimination from the real estate sales. 1988n a brutal campaign in against michael dukakis who they referred to as a midget nerd in his diary. when he got to washington, he did everything he could to establish a political culture of consensus. tell me a republican president today he would sign the americans with disabilities act. find me a republican president

today. charlie: maybe his son. reasons i call this destiny and power, is he always believed he was the best man for the job. he thought it was a possibility long before a probability. if you believe that, your compromises along the way are not cynical, but instrument to -- instrumental. there is also reagan. charlie: how did he see reagan? was he in awe? for he was against him years and years. opposed him from 1968 forward. barely got on the ticket in 1980. only after the ford deal fell apart.

when you think about moments of roads not taken -- let's just say that henry kissinger and alan greenspan had managed to make the deal happen and put a reagan ford ticket, it would have one. neither george bush would have been president. i asked them both. and 243o the president if ford hadsaid become president, would you have become president, they both said no. tookodern political world shape in detroit in the third week of july of 1980. charlie: george bush was on the ticket as vice president, he was defeated by bill clinton. you think that defeat marks the end of the 20th century

politically? jon: i do. the emergence of a boomer generation that viewed the world to friendly. -- to friendly. differently. bush.eagan grew to like mrs. reaganan -- never signed on to the bush family. put on joggingld shorts and run through snow drifts to get pictures taken to show off that he was 55 years old and ronald reagan was 69. there was in a location that reagan was too old -- implication that reagan was too old. it is wildly unfair. you cannot imagine a more loyal set of people. was in the news

today, is this notion of what was the relationship between father and son? the only criticism of cheney and rumsfeld during the iraq war. jon: i think there was one substantive conversation that we know of at camp david in 2002. george w. bush walked his father to the diplomacy, the inspections, through everything. the president -- former president said, if the man will not comply, you have to do what you have to do. when the operation was launched in march of 2003, there was an exchange of letters between the men. the letter of -- from father to son is incredibly warm. it says you are now facing a set of problems that perhaps no president has faced and lincoln -- since lincoln. operation wasaq

seen then as a war on terror to keep americans safe on the homeland. charlie: i thought it was seen as the war because saddam had weapons of mass destruction. jon: perhaps. feeling you get the there is huge love and his family -- in his family. a huge sense of responsibility goes back to prescott. now there is jeb. like an like -- looks unsuccessful run. jon: early days. charlie: does that disappoint him? does he speak to that? we closed this up before the book.

charlie: i am not sunny about a book, i am talking about the man i am not talking about the book, i am talking about the man you know. jon: he feels every bad poll. he watches the news religiously. he is a political junkie. he follows it all. i think he is hoping against hope that the republican party returns to an appreciation for a two term governor of florida he believes to be the best man. said happylstoy families are all alike, unhappy families are all unique in their own way? jon: it is a heavy family. -- happy family. george w bushoth and jeb bush are in politics because it is the best way they think they can pay homage to the

most important, interesting, and compelling than they know. their father. charlie: david mccullough, who knows something about history, quote the more time passes, the more dust settles, the clearer it becomes. deserves more attention and appreciation. now comes destiny and power. fair,am's altogether insightful biography of the 41st president -- a portrait made especially compelling by the author's remarkable access to bush's private white house diaries. his is a timely, first-rate book. ♪

charlie: hannah rothschild is here. she recently became the first female chair of the board of the national gallery in london. her debut novel is called the improbability of love. it features a talking painting. i am pleased to have hannah rothschild of the table. welcome. hannah: thank you. she writes about a

familiar word. where is the photograph taken? thath: that was a house belonged to prince william and prince harry. we rescued it. the cherry on the cake. i'm not talking about myself. charlie: you and your father are great friends of mine. did he introduce you as a young girl to the joy of art? hannah: very much so. if i wanted to see him, i had to go to museums. they were like a playground. charlie: it was the joy of being with him, rather than seeing art. hannah: the art was boring. it is not say anything. i wish pictures would talk. charlie: when did you begin to

love it? hannah: literally when i started to learn about it. when i learned about who had owned it, who the people were in the pictures. it was more of an intellectual understanding and love. when i was 16 i think i came face-to-face with a painting by also. that was my first real sucker punch. this person understands i am feeling. charlie: what role does it play? hannah: a huge role. i write about it, partly because i am surrounded by it. we also run a house which is stuffed full of art. wherever i go now. the child dragged around the gallery, little did i know it would end up being the place i chose to be. charlie: i want to talk with the art scene later, but more about you. i assume painting is your preferred form of art? hannah: it is the thing i know

about, maybe that is why. charlie: was it difficult to accept the chair your father had held? hannah: i was appointed by the prime minister. was not direct nepotism. but my father is my secret weapon. he has been there, done that, he is fantastically wise. he is very pragmatic. most issues that crop up, i can say, what would you do? he can say, actually what i did. it is nice. it has brought us close together. charlie: what is your first order? hannah: the national gallery has been told to prepare for between 25% to 40% cuts. thanknk the chancellor -- the chancellor. we not -- we will not know until december how big it will be.

i am determined it will mean -- remain free. charlie: isn't that wonderful? hannah: it is amazing. you are encouraged to donate at the met. i don't blame them. i did -- i am determined it will stay foree. we do have a fantastic site at the back which would make an amazing extension. in addition to finding an extra 40% for running cost, i would not mind finding an angel who would like to give me $200 million for new buildings. if anyone is watching. charlie: would you like to make films? hannah: i like to embed myself. i have other things to do. that could be tricky. charlie: where do people come from? -- did people come from?

hannah: it came from the little girl running around the gallery. eventually i had a picture that talked. it shatters -- chatters. world, ande art meeting people, and seeing them, what great characters. , theussian oligarchs politicians, the hard curators. all people you have had on your show. as you know, they are rich fodder. charlie: and distinct personalities. we just had an auction in which someone bid $107 million for a painting. hannah: is that more than the picasso? i think it is. charlie: i was not in the running. hannah: nor was i. museums cannot afford to buy pictures. that is the sad thing.

charlie: i wonder if it is said, they are trophies for people, rather than a love of art. you canthere is no way say something which is just a piece of material with oil is worth $170 million. the thing about paintings is, the price is about desire. it is about how much someone wants to pay for it. charlie: how bad you want this -- do you want this? hannah: do you wonder if anyone has that money to waste? charlie: i think a lot of people have that money. not a lot, but enough. hannah: the core of the book is how we value art. why we pay stuff for it. what it means to different people. something to the person

who bought it. quite a lot to the auctioneer. charlie: probably a lot to other people who drove the price up. course 150re is of stories around it. pictures go in and out of fashion. a painting, i don't know what it sold for 50 years ago, probably a fraction of what it sold for today. it is a crude desire. it is a crude admiration. charlie: it is the second highest price. but by a chinese businessman. hannah: is that right? i didn't know that. charlie: my impression about the chinese is there i merely not buying western art, but their own art. is they are primarily not

buying western art, but their own art. rich nations start by buying things from their own history, and then they get more confident. they start buying the totemic pieces. at the moment, picasso, renoir. with confidence they start looking further. perhaps that is why this chinese person bought it. charlie: i have often asked this question, i have had the chance to know a lot of good electors who have a good eye, people you know. they all say to me someone with a great eye, when they know what is the best picasso, they know. they can see and have an instinct. they have studied, they have immersed themselves. what is your definition of a good eye? hannah: a good eye is someone who matches instinct and knowledge and experience.

so that you can have someone who has lots of money and lots of experience, but doesn't necessarily have instinct. a good eye is about housing. -- pouncing. beinge: a good eye is able to see an artist before he or she is famous. you know the picasso will make a lot of money. with someone that is a young, beginning artist, or arriving who has not had an international reputation, a good i could get -- a good eye could see it. hannah: great academics make a market. with great selling powers, and scholarship, they find masterpieces, intervene, and they make them seem glamorous and desirable.

restorer tohis alter the shape of eyes to look more like the film stars of the day. you can make a market. charlie: what did it take for you to decide, i have enough to write? i know enough? i have met and nothing people to understand the dynamics of the culture? hannah: that is a good question. i don't think i ever thought i knew enough. i am not sure i do. i set off on a journey, it seems to work. when i knew it was quite fun, then i thought i have something here. i certainly do not know enough. , ient today to the met thought, i know nothing. there are so many extorting her things to learn about. i know nothing. charlie: favorite novel is

"scoop." hannah: even war makes me laugh. -- eviscerateste the character. charlie: if you made that one piece of-- music by thelonious monk. hannah: literally. charlie: not knowing. hannah: she did not meet him for four years, at the time he had been busted for heroin. he was locked up. charlie: she waited for him. it's like a movie. series forwill be a a well-known television station. charlie: the bbc. hannah: it is for amazon.

charlie: they are doing a lot of original programs. how is the family? hannah: that is a big question. charlie: fighting? fathers and sons are speaking? are they? hannah: fathers and sons had lunch recently. that is all fine. family is, any big complicated. ours is absolutely no exception to the rule. charlie: when you got ready to write this novel, the knowledge of the contemporary art market , the new york times said she has been involved to capture it well. her novel is not on some pathetic, but it does expose some of the fairly sharp practices in this world, which is unregulated to say the rinsed -- least, not very transparent. hannah: i think it is a strange

thing. you have this world. there are very few regulations. of, whenle, this thing you go into an auction and the auctioneer can take bids from off of the wall. meaning he can have someone there who once the painting, and he can did that person up, without necessarily having an opponent. i don't think that is completely straight. there is another thing where you can go and offer someone a huge guarantee to underwrite how much their work will get. someone will underwrite it so they know at the end of the day it doesn't -- there are all sorts of slightly nefarious practices to guarantee high prices. is that right? is that a level playing field? probably not. can you prove it, probably not. charlie: and you chose?

o.nnah: some people say vat you chose him, he was a 19th-century painter who provides interest in color and movement. hannah: there was little known about him. that was brilliant. if i had written about picasso, there would be massive. we know he was born, he died, and he had a miserable life. i thought, perfect. i didn't want people knowing too much. charlie: was it hard going up as a rothschild? hannah: i don't know any other way to grow up. charlie: my impression of you is grown with new adventures -- have grown more confident. hannah: i am a completely different person than the one you met.

charlie: what was that? hannah: it was difficult to live up to some of the people in my family. my father, my grandfather, my miriam, the men and women were all larger-than-life. i had to go out and achieve things of my own right. i had to make my mistakes to feel like it was all right. charlie: it turned out all right. hannah: thank you. charlie: hannah rothschild, the improbability of love. thank you for joining us, see you next time. ♪

john: with all due respect to jeb bush. this is how presidential politics works. sometimes you just go take a chance. ♪ john: on the show tonight, rubio prices go -- passes go.