>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." we begin this evening with our continuing coverage of the paris attacks. theas been confirmed that ringleader was killed. they used fingerprint analysis to identify his body. he was involved in four out of six plots against france. he was known to have traveled to

syria. he was a belgian nationals to grow up in alyn beck, a district in brussels that has emerged as extremism. belgian officials release -- arrested nine individuals today. the manhunt continues for at least two of the fugitives. persists in their investigation. --nch prime minister described the threat in a speech this morning. what is new is the modus operandi, the way of carrying out an attack, of killing, is evolving. the imagination of the ringleaders is endless. assault weapons, stabbings, all of these together carried on by

individuals or, in this case, organized commandos. and i say this, of course, with all of the necessary qualifications, but we buried in mind, there is also the risk of chemical weapons. mayor bill de blasio videod that in a threatening an attack on manhattan was not credible. >> as you know, there was a video portraying scenes where we are now in an obvious intent to intimidate the people of new york city. it is important to note that there are no credible and specific threats against new york city. joining me now, will

mccann. his new book is called "the isis of apocalypse." graeme wood is a contributing editor at "the atlantic." cover story "what isis really want" generated much discussion about the group's intentions. he says in the rise of isis, one of isis,n the rise many strands of blame, but no key to the complex puzzle. let's begin with the rise of isis. take as to how this group again and how they have grown? >> you have to look at two different moments, and the first moment -- this will be a little controversial -- 2000 three. the american military came into baghdad. some of our early decisions were, you know, we did not have a lot of experience there, so it blame, but wecast

marginalize the regime of saddam hussein rid of a lot of really talented people -- , able people in the bureaucracy had nowhere to go. people very quickly -- a jordanian militant was smart enough to see that. realizeery clever to that these people were going to be marginalized and he ended up organizing very quickly. talking to an insurgent back in 2003 and it was very clear, it was a sunni who lost their job. they talked about religion, tribalism. anyway, we all know the story. i think it took us a long time. and by the end, i think most

people agree and people who disagree with the invasion say that the american military, aligned with sunni tribesmen did a pretty good job tamping down the al qaeda, you know, sunni insurgency -- charlie: the so-called awakening. them together, yes. i did some reporting. i think they did a good job, but there were a lot of problems involved. among them was -- and this was very clear from reporting back in 2009 and 2010, the shia controlled government made a lot of promises to the sunnis. they said, we will give you jobs, we will pay you salaries. your families. it's very tribal. we will take care of everybody. you will be integrated in this. and they work. there was a huge disaffection among sunnis. if i can make a broader point,

it's really difficult to cast blame. there are a lot of things to talk about. where did these sunnis have to go, really. ways, i think at the end isis, butk about where do the sunnis go. and some say that they are the key to defeat isis? >> some are, yes. charlie: what would you add to that? >> there was a need for a muslim aided by theat was construction of a caliphate. i have talked to many who were supportive of the group, who had gone to the group to fight, and they think the idea of the

caliphate for all sunni muslims is something that they had wanted for a long time. for the foreign fighter element of this, it is important to see that in some ways, this is a long time coming. have been intellectually developing for a long time, and also it is important to note it was the revival of a kind of islam that really was left behind by many of the jihadist movements that had come before, too. charlie: correct me if i am wrong. my recollection of the story was the some of bin laden to create a city because he thought it would create new problems. verye: yes, it's a ambitious thing. if you put down a whole new flag and you say this is where we are going to attack, you make

yourself vulnerable to all sorts of things. middle east is full of that. graeme: if you do have a place where there is enough chaos, there is enough disaffection, a vacuum of power, you have a great opportunity to put down that flag and be fairly sure no one is going to attack you and take it away. maliki government turned out to be much worse than any one expected, including americans who supported them. how does that tiny and? tie in?oes that who is of double that he? >> is nickname growing up was ," because he had a penchant for telling people off.

throughout his life, he more and moreard extreme forms and ultraconservative forms of islam until the year 2000 he big basically became what we call a jihadist and was seeking out to revolution against the state. at the same time he was getting his graduate degree. he ended up getting a phd in 2007 while he was fighting an insurgency. gettingery clever never the politics and it rose to become its leader in 2010. he was also in prison for a while. >> he was. he was only there for nine months. he made important connections. ,e served as a spiritual leader working with other jihadists, but also members of saddam hussein's regime. many came up with it -- many

came up with him through the ranks of the islamic state. howlie: help me understand that came together to emerge as the beginnings of what we see today. will: in 2006, they proclaimed the islamic state. charlie: 2006? nine years ago? over the objections of bin laden. and other jihadists laughed at them because they did not have a state. it was really the american withdrawal in iraq. they took advantage of the chaos in the political disaffection among the sunnis to begin state building. they assassinated people they thought would resist them. they carried out intense campaigns of proselytizing, and then they moved in troops, took over towns and built the state

you see today. the problem is, they are prosecuting a war. having a state means there is territory, but it serves for recruitment. this is real. there is a place. will: that is right. and there is an attraction to other young was lum's who are looking not only -- muslims who are looking not only for a sunni homeland, but they are looking for the appearance of god's kingdom on earth, the so-called caliphate. they say it is a fulfillment of prophecy and heralds the end of time.

charlie: what about the recruits and those people joining them question mark who are they? where are they coming from? -- what about the recruits and those people joining them? graeme: i think we can say they are from everywhere. what has most concerned people, they are from the west. from europe, especially. we have created a democracy. why don't you like our democracy? what is wrong with it? what would make you go back into what is essentially a mid-evil caliphate. medieval caliphate. and you know more about this than i do. they are very devout, religiously. it tends to attract people who are very much searching in life, who tend to be lost in looking

for meaning. >> i have found people with really diverse backgrounds. people who are shockingly learned. they have a very skewed reading of that tradition. i have had people a few years before they became supportive of the islam extent were simply criminals. they had no idea about any of the things that they are now spouting about for anyone who will listen. so, it's a very wide diversity of people. charlie: tell me if this is wrong again, but my impression of abdelhamid abaaoud, he was one of those. he really -- he is not a learned religious fanatic. he was very much a criminal. like that school -- i believe he had run into the law. he was in that category of he believed found the islam in state almost to be a life of --

the islamic state almost to be a life of reduction after a life ups and. that seems to be a very common trope. belief, but sincere it's after a long time of lacking any belief at all. consistent --s is withthe us is consistent isis. the founder found redemption in religion, the idea of a state. it's not surprising to find people like that finding the state attractive. charlie: america will not find redemption in religion? ian: indeed. calorie, again, he is considered to be the father? ian: he is the intellectual father. afghanistan, he is

hiding out in iran, he's thinking about where to go next. he sees the americans are going to go to iraq and he decides to pre-position his network of terrorists before the americans arrive in order to create chaos because he believes that he can capitalize on it to found an islamic states. charlie: at that point, before did he make the connection with those at iraqi generals? will: he did. and a number of them joined up with his organization. charlie: what do we know about ?is abilities as a leader is it he who enhanced the idea of beheadings? zarqawi. it was

upgradefter the revelations. he marched his captives out in jumpsuits.ange it's really emblematic of their more brutal form of insurgency. charlie: what is the attraction to the young people they are recruiting? just get off them on horrific acts of violence. for some, in the west, it creates questions about whether the islamic state is truly islamic or not. scholars come out and say, no, no, this has nothing to do with islam. and then the islamic state come out chapter and verse. it creates questions in the minds of young muslims. charlie: many strands of blame, but no single missed key to the group's terrifying and complex puzzle.

headline --rite the but it is your story. tell me about those strands of blame, but no single missed key. when you look at the many strands of blame, i mean clearly, if we had not invaded iraq, i think it would be a question about whether isis would exist, and the way that we zarqawi a very clear path forward. charlie: allow to fester. >> exactly. it didn't happen overnight. then there is the question of president obama. a lot of people say the withdrawal from iraq. we had them down. we left no troops there, the iraqis did not want is there, but could we have pushed more to get people there? and you know, i don't have the

answer to that. could we have continued to keep pressure on that? would we have moved into syria after that? in terms of i have a lot of questions in my own brain about talk about arm the moderate anti-assad groups in syria, was that a big mistake of obama's? i don't know the answer to that. arms tend to go in the hands of bad guys. i'm sorry? the armsand some of that we sent in did go into the hands of -- that i amis the point making. but what is very clear, we underestimated isis. there is a cost to action. there is a cost to in action. when you underestimate someone, you can make a really clear equation as to what is the cost of action versus inaction. charlie: let's talk about today.

out that dottie, they think that he is in iraq of. but they would even risk collateral damage for him, i'm sure. but they do not know where he is and rocca is a tan of what, 2000? just about. and he is known for operational security. atwas known for showing up meetings and keeping a veil on his space. he has survived in that organization by being able to hide well. charlie: but he did make that appearance at the mosque on friday and spoke. will: and announced himself. charlie: if you look at this before paris, before 11, before plane,ai and the russian were they winning or losing? the administration argues they were shrinking the territory of the caliphate.

that's true. they have lost something like 25% of the territory. they have lost tens of thousands of fighters. charlie: and key people up and taken out. tol: but they have been able expand into other areas, which is why they were able to carry out that attack on the russian airliner in egypt. they have a powerful insurgent group that pledged and owes of allegiance to them and because of the political instability in the middle east, there are so many more places they can go. they have a threefold strategy of expansion. the first one is conquest. they got to the edges of shia dominated areas and they simply cannot hold that territory. but as will is saying, they also have this ability to draw in allegiance from other groups and allegiance in

libya. those strategies are very much alive and putting a lot of emphasis on getting allegiance from groups like al-shabaab in somalia and others. finished.ot although in iraq and syria, there's no question, they have had defeat after defeat after defeat. last one and the string of long defeats that of happen slowly, but surely. a changedo you see in strategy, tactics question mark a global reach? that they want to achieve new objectives by attacking the west or russia and different places? on the one hand, they have been saying over and over again, we are going to attack the west. they have shown pictures of the eiffel tower, pictures of the white house in flames. they have always endorsed this. it has usually been in the model of inspiration, telling people

that are allied with them or sympathetic to them they should be behind these attacks. what is new, they seem to be such larger tax, so organized, there is a real possibility they were planned and provisioned from inside -- charlie: they have money, and they have the ability to get access to funding. if you could threaten someone in a way that nobody would know or if you have enough money? graeme: yes. my question is why now? they had distinguish themselves yes.al qaeda -- ian: my question is why now? they had distinguish themselves from al qaeda. they would take territory and fight on the ground next to them. what is the moment? why did they decide to go off? i don't know the answer to that. charlie: what are the three or four answers that might be? ian: here is one possibility.

one is they believe themselves to be extremely strong, that they can with stand and attack and even if there is a coalition, including france, russia, the united dates, that the result will be in their favor. i think that is, first of all unlikely to be true. but there are other .ossibilities one possibility is we do not know yet what the association is between syria and paris. syria and sinai. it's not actually clear it was exactly planned from raqqa. way itre aspects to the was announced that suggests the bombing of the russian airliner in paris in a way took them by surprise. charlie: the isis leadership in raqqa. their prt least department. they have always tried to

capitalize as much as possible. if you look at their official magazine, as a magen ease -- as a magazine person, i can tell you there was a cover that was torn up so they could put the paris cover is dead. at least some unit of the pr apparatus did not know this was have ang and did not magazine that would fully exploited and glorify it. charlie: there may not be an easy answer, but how did they get so smart about technology? graeme: they seem to know about layouts. social media. they have people who are clearly trained, people who could make a living as copy editors at -- charlie: an advertising agency? ever repent from isis, they might have a job at "the atlantic." charlie: let's talk about this -- we will use the word isis. everyone in the government seems to use the word isil, and now you hear john kerry and others which people come

from the arab states use with me. same thing ande they come from the name of the organization tw's ago. i think it is fine -- the organization two years ago, and i think it is fine, whatever they call it. h has a for jordan of the islamic state does not like -- i do not think that is true. it. don't worry about they call themselves the islamic state. i personally have no problem doing it. the president is very careful not to, because he believes by calling them islamic, you're justifying their religious identity and by calling them a state them a you are recognizing them -- charlie: and there are a lot of other muslim states. will: right. that is the idea. it is a state. whether it is islam a core not is something for muslims to

weigh in on. charlie: wherever they have gone, they have taken over american equipment and given it to the iraqis. is that right? will: yes. charlie: they don't have an air force. how strong can they be militarily? what is the evidence of their military strength? >> i think they are strong enough to take the territory they have taken. charlie: like mosul? will: like mosul. but what makes them work so well is not the arms they have captured. what makes them work so well is there careful preparation of the battlefield. in terms ofhey do psychological operations and infiltration before they even sent the first man in. they have completely penetrated a town. they will assassinate -- they will know who to assassinate or if they have done to people who have stood against them in other towns, so when they roll in, the

local security forces are out there. charlie: severed heads on sticks and all of that. >> that's right. thatld go back to the idea state may not exist if the sunnis had somewhere to go you see sunni muslims going into sunni muslim areas. at i think they probably do not welcome isis, but they look at the alternative something, you know, maybe it's all right for now. charlie: assuming you want to degrade or a road or eliminate isis, how you go about convincing the sunnis in those territories, and bar province for example? you made a terrible mistake in these guys are not people you want to be associated with, even though you share sunni islam? is a very, very difficult case for the iraqi

government, the americans to make. the americans have been on the ground since 2003. the tensions between the shia and the shiite go back forever. when saddam hussein was there is not like the shia were treated particularly well. of theink one part argument is just to show that they are losing. right now isis has this narrative of inexorably expanding the caliphate. charlie: they are on the march. graeme: they are winners. they are going to reach rome. don't even reach her biel, they do not look as surprising. when they see them being pushed back, it will be much easier task to convince sunni arabs in iraq in particular to sign on to the fight against them. >> and they are the key here. the sunni tribal leaders.

will pointed out very well that one of the early reasons that isis in fact succeeded was they were able to convince the tribal leaders after the americans left that, in fact, they should come over to their side and i think that is a real key here. charlie: a lot of those leaders and tribal leaders have to know the tactics of isis, yes? and not approve of them or in fact there them. what happens if they turn on us? >> right. and the islamic state rolls by fear, but it has also been clever with the tribes. it looks for clans that will work with it. it gives them a share of the spoils. and they go after the tribes that resist them and execute them en masse. and because there is no major military on the ground to resist it, they get away with it with impunity. charlie: what is your opinion some of bin laden's

lieutenant and the al qaeda leadership about isis? they do not consider the caliphate to be legitimate. he has a distaste for al baghdadi -- he finds them insubordinate. there is a lot of bad blood between them, figuratively and literally. they have been fighting skirmishes. has recently held out and all of france, saying about never recognize your caliphate, but i will work with you on the ground. it's not inconceivable there could be some rapprochement between the two groups. ian: it is not clear how much that will even matter. he is consistently referred to and described by isis as being a doddering old man who is irrelevant to jihad today. as a global organization -- it doesn't make him look great if

al baghdadi is thought to be on the front fighting, where is he some cave somewhere watching a big-screen tv. ♪

charlie: in places they control, do they offer these services of a fully functioning state?

>> they do, in fact. they take out the garbage. i think that is one of the interesting things. one of the interesting challenges when they went to how myra, for example, the old roman city to the southeast. yra.wo palm can they really govern? i think we know the answer to that. they had to expand in cruelty, but also what do you bring to me as a government? charlie: where are the other muslim states? we know that there is an enormous hatred on the part of --ranians, --s i ns, but the sunni states like saudi arabia, jordan, egypt, where are they? >> they are absent. with the exception of jordan, every other state has a

higher priority than the destruction of the islamic state. charlie: what is it? iran? certainly. for turkey, it is the kurds. they are more worried about the kurds. charlie: so each of those states, before you take out isis, let's take out a side aside is committed to being supported by shia from iran or from lebanon, right? will: that is right. president obama gets a lot of criticism for not taking the fight to isis. you've the united states is one of the few countries that has taken the fight to isis. all of our supposedly it partners have been free writing. the argument is with the president when they say, you allowed assad to cross the redline, you did not do anything, you did not support

the moderate troops against him when they are doing nothing? will: that is true. and i think that president obama rightly rolls his eyes when they come with his talking points. you it is easy to say should do something. it's difficult to say what you should do. his critics, particularly on the right. bomb them. boots on the ground. really? how? charlie: that is what he said in his press conference. if you have a plan, tell me. i have not seen a better plan. i have not seen a better plan from the military. i have not seen a better plan and the state department. ian: the republican candidates have not come up with a better plan either. charlie: other than take them out. ian: it's difficult. you can stay for all the years you want, but it's hard to win. the urgencyt should be? obviously political people have no answer yet.

some depending on their ideological bent may suggest one thing or the other. is this now the biggest threat to america's national security? in the homeland. we are more worried about loan wolf attacks here. but i think we should be very worried about the kind of attack we saw on the russian airliner. there are lots of smaller airports around the world that are exposed, and that would be my great fear. that they mobilize one of their affiliates or operatives in the middle east to carry out that kind of an attack on american airline. and i would say the lone wolf attack -- charlie: describe the lone wolf. ian: it would be a one off as opposed to an organizational thing. charlie: paris was not bad. parisxactly -- charlie: was not that. paris was an organizational thing. ian: exactly.

they will shoot a lot of people in a theater or a school or something like that. that frightens me. that said, my hat is off to -- excuse me, america's police and intelligence. there has been a lot of years that could happen. the opportunities have been there. and it hasn't. they have done an extraordinary job. an extraordinary job. charlie: in terms of -- ian: preventing this sort of thing. charlie: everyone says since 9/11. since 9/11, people have set up his table, 10 years ago, five years ago, last week and said, i'm surprised there has not been a major attack. we know that they have turned back attacks. it is incredible. it's amazing. operational attack like what happened in paris, all of this coordination would be very difficult. one person with a gun going and doing something in the name of

the islamic state would not and the fact that that has not happened is amazing. cbs show, they said the response time in terms of the u.s. is much, much smaller. much quicker. >> that is one thing we need to say about lone wolf attacks. isis has encouraged this in the --t the red garland, texas isis has encouraged us in the past. garland, texas would be an example. the number of lives claimed for the attack is usually on the average one or two, which is why paris matters so much if it does actually show a change in strategy and tactics for isis. if isis is saying now you should focus on these kinds of attacks, then we won't just get people who are in effect low functioning. it will be more like the paris model. whereas before, isis was just

saying, if you can make it to syria, a should do that -- you should do that. if you can't, you should perpetrate an attack. charlie: french president francois hollande has declared war. france has declared war. has the united states declared war against isis? all talking at once] ian: no, the president has been very clear. that he does not, yes. charlie: the cause? ideahe was elected on the that he does not want to put americans in harms way and he's a very cautious president, and i think he asks the question come a what after? what do you do? charlie: and his foreign policy is based on part in don't do stupid stuff. they have had some success in knocking off leaders, the finance chief, other people. able to buy somehow

their way in, get some intelligence operating inside isis and could have al-baghdadi ?, would that stop them -- would that stop them? it would not hurt them organizationally. there are many people waiting to can prosecute a war and they are his advisers. what removing al-baghdadi can do will be removing a very powerful recruitments symbol. let a i can think of has jihadist state that has had his lineage from the prophet mohammed -- charlie: he has serious religious credentials. koranic has a phd in studies. he has the lineage from mohammed -- charlie: do you know anyone who has written about knowing him? tends to beut it

former friends. his current friends are keeping quiet and staying close to him and close lipped. about the entry of the russians in syria. make it's going to obligated. i personally welcome the russians taking the fight to takes but i worry it attention off the assad regime. regime has been fueling this conflict. , it its earliest days released the jihadists from prison. they have not gone after him. charlie: why? they prioritize state building in the sunni hinterland. all of the other rebel groups want to overthrow men damascus. , you worryassad

about those trying to overthrew you and damascus. ian: it is also a symbolic thing. you can make the case, i am fighting this awful insurgency. i am the person against real terror, and would really it's in his interest to be on isis' side. charlie: bob gates was talking to me and says one of the things i have not heard anybody talk about is the potential for what the western intelligence or buses, including the cia, can do on the ground in terms of infiltrating, sabotage activities to make life harder for isis. i think there are a number of things we can do without sending more troops and aggravating the situation in terms of turning people on the ground against us because we are back in there. not a very leaky ship, unfortunately. the isis regime, information does not escape. humans do not escape.

when they try to leave, they are killed. to gett a simple matter information out, to get agents and an infiltrate. i'm not terribly shocked. and they are good at this kind of subterfuge, too. they will be able to spot it when it is used against them. charlie: can you judge how well the president has done fighting against isis? think he haslly, i played the best hand he possibly good with the cards he was dealt, given that are other arab allies have other priorities. everybody has a different priority than the destruction of the islamic state. i think he has done what he has been able to do, given the circumstances and given the political dysfunction in syria and iraq. disaffection of the sunnis, that's not going away anytime soon, and there's very little the americans can do about it from the outside. charlie: the russians are back, has more strength and

is gaining territory. i don't understand why he used barrel bombs against his own people. that just seems maddening to me. ian: well, i think -- charlie: he doesn't care? crude.s he does not have to waste his money on regular bombs. it scares that the jesus out of everyone. beejd -- it scares the eezus out of everyone. the effectiveness. i don't know. charlie: like aleppo. ian: yes, exactly. >> his strategy has been to make life terrible. to make serious so bad that everyone would prefer it like it was before when bashar al-assad ruled every inch of the country like a tyrant. charlie: what am i missing?

what have i not brought up that you think is important to understand who they are and where they want to go and how to stop them? have not thing you mentioned is their use of these grotesque videos on social media. i mean -- charlie: to recruit or to scare? to scare.ecruit and they want to scare their enemies, but they want to attract the kind of people to those kind of videos. are prosecuting a brutal insurgency. they want the kind of person who looks at the burning of a pile and say, yes, i want to be on board. one issue that has been difficult to wrestle with, to what extent are they pragmatic baathists? to what extent are they representative of sunni aspirations? i think it is a mix of all of

these different things and people want to put them in different barrels. i do not know the percentage of each there. i would love to see that parceled out and teased out a little bit more. charlie: what about this debate about radical islam and all of that, the notion, the fact that most seem to come from fundamental islam -- out of waha bis or wherever they come from, and arguing they find everything they are doing in the koran, and yet at the same time, moderate arab leaders like the king of jordan, some of the saudi's, and others say that is crazy. sibley by saying what they say -- simply by them saying what they say does not make them islamic. right. they clearly come out of the one

hobby tradition. they are a theology. the kinddifferent from of islam you find in saudi arabia. they are very careful to document and explain and justify what they do with reference to scripture. what interests me is the times they depart from scripture, because sometimes there are things in scripture that cut against them. there are many restrictions on how you're supposed to wage war. they find clever ways to get around those because it's inconvenient for their form of insurgency. ifrlie: so, in other words, someone from within the faithful points out, they have arguments to get around that argument? will: that's right. ian: the burning of the jordanian pilot would be one good example of this. using fire -- fire is supposed to be reserved as the punishment god uses. so, many muslims objected, in addition to the other reasons to object, that they were using something that was specifically

reserved for god. thehe video though and statements afterward, they came up with a loophole. they said, apparently we are permitted to use reciprocal punishment. so, if this guy burned civilians dropped because he bombs from his jet, then we can burn him. there is a contradiction. it is a religious tradition. it will have many interpretations, contradictory interpretations, and in that case, find one and very carefully lay out the case. you know, you could take a vote among muslims. that is not really going to settle which one is correct in which one is not. it's a religious question. what we can say for sure, when they are looking for justification, they are looking in the islamic tradition. charlie: is this going to be a long twilight struggle? it is.ink

i don't see any answer. i don't see anything around the corner that suggests this is over. one of the difficulties is, say what you will about the difference between isis and al qaeda, it is inspirational. there are lots of people around the world who can pick up this idea and move it elsewhere without a lot of resources. charlie: and the argument used people who there are had no jobs, connections in life, no sense of identity and this gave them identity and out came from poverty. my impression is that is not quite true. will: no, the links between poverty and terrorism are very weak, if not nonexistent. people join organizations like this for many different motives. for the islamic state, is enough to build the state -- charlie: that does raise this question. how can those who oppose isis win the war of ideas? how did they do that? will: the islamic state has a

two word slogan. enduring and expanding. both of those have to do with the control of territory and survival. they have state everything on their ability to build a state and maintain the caliphate. the ideological fight is an actual fight. it's not going to be a war of words. isis is not trying to win over broad muslim appeal to its cause. you do not burn a sunni pilot. they are going for a narrow segment of society and their political success has attracted that -- charlie: i assume that segment of society, you mean sunni muslims? will: that's right. but they are going for a very small sliver that would be excited by their political project, but also their extreme form of violence. charlie: but there's no limit to their ambition? will: no, they want to

reconstitute the early islamic empire which cover the muslim countries of the world and eventually they want to pop or the world, so it's limitless in their minds. charlie: i hear you saying economics or education is not the answer, in other words to stem the recruitments that replenish those killed by drones or military attack? that this has been proven from the very beginning of political islam. egyptianm brotherhood who is considered sort of the intellectual father of fundamentalist jihadists. he specifically came and said, no, i don't like this. i don't think you can use money or western ideas or education and say, that's the answer. it's a rejection of that. charlie: the point to me does not seem to be so much you have to believe in western ideas. the point is you literally need

people who come from the same place to convince them of an alternative. what would that argument be? is northern iraq and particularly poor place question mark the tribal lands of iraq and syria -- i don't think so. charlie: let's talk about it. we talked about the awakening and the surge. part of that, the awakening, part of that was the fact that the sunnis turned on al qaeda. >> correct. charlie: what would it take for the sunnis to turn on -- if the sunnis in a large way, sunni tribes in iraq and syria would turn on isis, that would be the beginning of the end. >> it would, but i think we have been under a misapprehension. because of the success of the war it in iraq -- the surge in the war in iraq and the awakening, that groups like the

islamic state collapse because of their brutality. they are charitable to people. the people rise up -- they are terrible to people. the people rise up and throw them out. that is not necessarily true. if you want a good analogy, look at the taliban area of the taliban still be with us today andnd it was terrible governing and fought a brutal insurgency. it's misstep was in tagging eyes -- antagonizing a powerful foreign nation. that is why it collapsed. >> and they are coming back. charlie: on that note, thank you. a pleasure to have you here. a great piece today. thank you for joining us. on till next time. -- until next time. ♪

♪ emily: he is the owner of the world's very first model s, and an early backer of elon musk's tesla and spacex. witht talker conventional investing philosophy. -- unconventional investing philosophy. he has amassed one of the biggest private space collections in the world, and has spent his days pondering the future of artificial intelligence and self driving cars. joining me today on "studio 1.0," steve jurvetson. steve, thank you for being here. it is great to have you. steve: thank you.