>> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. -- the cei --eo the cia has played a pivotal role against terrorism. the agency has faced some of the most somber decisions in history. cia in the crosshairs is a new documentary. ceostroduces all 12 of the of the operative. >> everything that we held dear

was at risk. >> we were at war. >> every lead lead nowhere, it was frustrating. >> we were asked to do some very hard things. >> we can let the terrorists thrive or we can disrupt the plants. >> if some future president is going to decide to waterboard, he better bring his own bucket. joining me now are the filmmakers. i am pleased to have them at this table. really pleased to have you back. how did this project get underway? as journalists and documentary filmmakers, you see a closed door and you want to open it. we had done the chiefs of staff, the men who keep the president's secrets. we thought that these are the guys. the cia directors keep the nation's secrets.

it is important to know that this is not a history of the cia. who is the story of 12 men led the most powerful intelligence agency in the world. story. very powerful when we were constructing the thatf the film, we agreed every act should be an ethical dilemma. because everyone faces life and death decisions. charlie: was there a common thread among them? >> a quality? >> patriots. that is a given. for me, the humanity. normally you see the cia in stark terms. the first meeting that we had, general hayden told us that he said the american public is bipolar when it comes to the

cia. we are either seen as jack bauer or jack the ripper. when people are missing is the area of gray in the middle. these are human beings who struggle with tough decisions. we learned that they are in charge. charlie: it is never black and white? it is never obvious. >> never. if it is easy then someone else will make the decision. they always get between the heart and the hardest. charlie: was it tough to get them? >> it was a challenge. there was one director after another, we kept her week, we were lucky to get george h.w. bush first, he is revered by everyone at the cia. george tenet was the last holdout. the -- talk about a

shakespearean character. imagine if you had, on your attacks of 9/11, the enhanced interrogation program which many called torture and then weapons of mass destruction? so, he was criticized? who faced lifeuy and death decisions but also decisions that changed the course of history. was anotherus shakespearean character. talk about a fall from grace. charlie: sure. >> it is a remarkable cast of characters. -- the mostmidst interesting characters worthy analysts. -- she is one of the characters who inspired the jessica chastain character in

zero dark 30. ankle for black -- and call for black. he is a straight shooter. he helped the french chorale carlos the jackal. he was one of those who warned that al qaeda was coming prior to 9/11. >> you know, it is a chilling picture that they paint. 9/11,.months preceding the information that we have now compiled was compelling. it was multiple sourced. it was the last stroke. wepicked up the phone call, had to go see the director now. tenet is a very smart guy. he is chewing on his cigar. he is going back and forth and

his eyes are flashing. it isn't just red lights. these are real plots being manifested. >> the threat continues to rise. public pronouncements by people there wouldwas that be a two major celebrations coming. they world would be stunned by what would happen. >> we decided the next thing to do was to call the white house and say we were coming there right now. to seeid connie, i have you. we are coming right now. present at the july 10 white house meeting is condoleezza rice and other top officials. there will be significant terrorist attacks coming in the next weeks. the attacks will be spectacular at they may be multiple. al qaeda's intention is the destruction of the united dates. that this country has

to go on a war footing now. i slammed my hand on the table. you can't get any more dramatic than this. >> these are great storytellers. what we loved about having the directors, the directors were thrown into 30,000 feet into the air. really provide the sense of immediacy. all of them are fascinating characters to tell these meaningful stories. was it hard to get -- to come on board? >> i think he liked the film. we send him the script and then we sent in the red cap -- the rough cut.

he was deeply affected by what had happened. the story of the gravities. the controversy about the show being unfair to arab muslims. he wanted to betray the believes that when we had dinner with him in berlin, before we recorded. he wanted to -- he was very happy because he managed to invite -- for dinner. he wanted to speak to them. he wants to talk about how the show should be different. we thought it was extraordinary. the film itself, how would you characterize it? is this a sense of how the cia tries to figure out who it is and what it is about? >> for me, it is a couple of

things. how fararching theme is should this agency go to protect america. what are the rules of engagement? does the cia go far enough, does it go too far? that is number one. the other part that is equally fascinating to me is the humanity. charlie: the humanity. of these 12ity guys. when we started the program we had no idea that this would become part one. but when we sit down and described for us, minute four-minute detail, the ethical wereopment he faced as cia when he was at the funeral for one of his young officers, he gets wordson -- from the cia operation center that they have in the crosshairs

of a drone, the mastermind of the suicide bombing that killed this woman and other officers. was a jordanian doctor? >> it turned out to be an al qaeda spy. it was the worst day in recent cia history. charlie: continue the story. >> he gets word that they have this guy who is a really bad guy. operation.ind of the but there are women and children in the shot. ordinarily, he says when there are women and children, we don't take the shot. so he wrestled with this. he is a devout catholic. he always carries his rosary -- his- his rosary beard rosary beads. he walked us through that process and you can see the

agony that he went through to make that decision. toon't know if you are me tell you what the decision was. but it was a life and death situation. that interested me had been around. he was shocked by the extent to which the cia director had to make life and death decisions every day. ♪

charlie: i want to talk about enhanced interrogation, a classic discussion that is back in american politics because donald trump yesterday said that we ought to bring waterboarding back because of what isis is doing. take a look at this, number two, this clip. here it is. supervision, dtd's ,ould be slapped and grabbed deprived of sleep, forced onto liquid diets. even confined in a coffin like box with live insects. >> there was nudity. water dousing. cramped confinement and stress positioning. >> then there was the infamous technique -- waterboarding. the body responds as if the

body thinks it is drowning. am i happy that we had to do it? of course not. >> the president looks -- looked at the techniques and i do not know what techniques were taken off the table. two were taken off the table. there are some inside the cia who have grave doubts. there were a number of those techniques that i personally felt were inappropriate. not necessary. beyond the pale. a senior officer at the time and i had expressed my aboutfort and my concerns these techniques, believing that

come back toad to haunt the cia. i did that with individuals, colleagues at the agency. >> we were just talking about waterboarding. there were three terrorists, really bad guys, the killer of daniel pearl. charlie: he boasts about that to this day. too much ofot have a problem with waterboarding. over 5-10 sessions, he has had dousing's with water. he knew that the cia would stop after 10 seconds. he would count. they would see his hand counting and then they would stop. but what got him was sleep deprivation.

that was what worked. charlie: why is that? >> the body breaks down. theael hayden says that point of enhanced interrogation is to bring them to the zone of court ration. they don't ask questions when they are doing it. it is not like movies. they waterboard them, they bring them to that moment where they give up, between the lack of sleep, the temperatures, you don't know where you are and then you start to talk because they can't take it. >> what's happening now is what happened in paris, when we did the interviews a couple of months ago, they all were saying about isis, when the bad guy tells you they are going to come here and get you, you better believe it. the climate that we are seeing, right before one happened in the pre-9/11 climate where we believe them and what we're seeing, with the

french and the home country casing -- country facing. they are waking up. charlie: it has often been said that they has said they were going to do it, they lead out the plan and then they did it. did you come out with a sense of what kind of interrogation works? >> we came away that there is passionate disagreement among the directors, the so-called wartime directors who followed 9/11, george tenet and mike morell, theychael will all tell you. there is absolutely no doubt in his mind set enhanced interrogation techniques saved lives and disrupted plots and took al qaeda combatants off the field. other hand, you have the other directors passionately

opposed to torture. trias --as -- david raeus will to you that the most effective way of interrogating is that it takes time and skill but to become the detainee's best friend. >> it is interesting to see, -- he does sayta , you know. hold on. if there is a scenario with a nuclear bomb in new york city. we have the guy who knows. it is very hard not to try everything at your disposal to get it. so they all say they are against it but there is a caveat. charlie: the interesting argument is that they will say that people who are tortured will say everything just to stop

the torture. that is the argument. on the other hand, you don't have time to be the guy's best friend if you've heard the bomb is going to go off in 24 hours. tenet. his george he would say that every day for three years after 9/11, we would face the threat of a ticking time bomb. there were credible threats that bin laden had met with nuclear scientists. threats thatdible there was a bomb in new york city. he would say that this is a ticking time bomb situation. >> that is the difference. in between these two camps, the wartime directors and the others. as george tenet and others said, they were in these meetings

every day having these horrible reports of what is coming. how they want to get us and where they want to get us. it is hard to judge in their minds, what they did at that time. charlie: it wasn't just the men in the field who were doing this stuff, the what we imagine about spies. the really smart -- putting it together. >> for example, the bin laden unit --e leader of the they were mostly women. they were called the sisterhood. and they were the incredible force behind these analysts. just like gina bennett. a mother of five who would been at the cia since the 1990's. and that is where you have the parallels with the homeland. even though michael hayden would say that kerry was working for

me, minus the drugs and the sex -- but the level of passion and addiction is what drove them, day in and day out, to amass these mountains of information. analyticalilliant minds and these were the great women behind it. in the shadows, they are responsible for the analytical work. you've also put your finger on a critical issue. we called it a battle for the soul of the cia. it is really a battle among the directors about what the issue of the cia should be. has the cia become seduced by covert military operations that it has neglected the analytical side? eloquent on was

this. he said, imagine how different the world would be if we hadn't gone into iraq. if they had gotten weapons of mass destruction right? this is the kind of stuff we used to be really good at. but when you focus too much on covert military operations and drones strikes, you pay a price by neglecting the analytical side. charlie: the movie is called the spymaster's, 80 years on saturday, this saturday at 9:00 on showtime. talking about the craft and it is an extraordinary show. thank you for coming. good to see you guys. back in a moment. ♪

charlie: search form jones is here, he is known simply as the voice. it is unmistakable singing has helped him sell more than 100 million records. range voice with the force of an entire brass section. he has now written a book that chronicles his career. it is called over the top and back. is tom jones.

performing elvis presley blues from his new album, long-lost suitcase. i was thinking that tonight about elvis the day that he died the day that he died i was thinking that tonight about elvis. the day that he died he day that he died ust a country boy he put on a shirt his mother made and he went on the air and he shook is like a chorus girl and he shook it like a harlem queen

he shook it like a midnight rambler baby seen, you never seen i was thinking that night about elvis day that he died, day that he died i was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died day that he died all out of it black-and-white grabbed his wand in the other hand and he held on tight and he shook it like a hurricane to make it like break like a holy roller

baby with his soul let's take, his soul let's take -- his soul at stake i was thinking that night about elvis. the day that he died the day that he died i was thinking that tonight about elvis the day that he died the day that he died in a long alone decline think how happy he was when he laid down and died and he shook it and he rang like silver he shook it and he shines like goals. and he beat that steam drill, baby

well bless my soul, what's wrong -- he shook it and he beat the steam drill baby well bless my soul what is wrong with me ♪ charlie: i am pleased to have sir tom jones at this table for the first time. welcome. tom: thank you. music began for you when you heard rock around the clock? that is when i heard of rock 'n roll. i was born in 1940. my mother said i could sing before i could walk. in a welsh carry me

fashion. she's dropped the baby to the chest so she could get on with the housework. apparently, my sister, who is 6-year-old are then me was a calm child and when music would come on the radio when i was a baby in this shawl, i would start to move. my mother wondered what she had given birth to. did you have tuberculous is? >> when i was 12. from aged 12-14. charlie: bedridden? tom: bedridden. i stayed home. because when they discovered that i had it, there were these tuberculosis hospitals in scotland and switzerland. and wanted to send me their -- charlie: they were senatorial's,

weren't they? exactly. my mother made me well. we lived in a three-story house on they put me in a room middle floor. my mother was up and down the stairs all day because the doctor said, he can't worry about anything. don't let him worry about anything. she took it to heart and she nursed me through it. charlie: you have said an interesting thing to me. you said to be great in music you have to have young ears. tom: yes. to keep them open. to hear new sounds. there are some people who have been in the business for as long as i have and they say, it is not like it used to be. but it hasn't really. you still have to get up in front of a microphone and sing.

i have always kept my ears open. inave always been interested new sounds and new singers. i want to still be in the ring. i am proud of the records i have made. at the time they were made they were very good records. they stand the test of time. but i don't want to live in the past. i don't want to go on the road and say, oh, i will do the greatest hits. charlie: how do you take care of your voice? drink plenty of water, get eight hours of sleep as possible. i have never gotten into drugs. alcohol -- you have to be careful. everything in moderation. i have learned that over the years. charlie: how many games to do

each year? about 200d to do year. -- 200 each year. some years were more shows than others. a european tour in june and july and august. so i am always singing somewhere. are you happiest when you are singing? tom: definitely. i don't know what life is like without it. to take that away for me, i wouldn't know what to do. charlie: who's influenced you have? tom: a lot of black singers. the malia jackson was the first gospel singer i heard and i went to a presbyterian chapel. we used to do a song called the old rugged cross. i always love that song. ien i heard her sing it and

wondered why we don't do it like that. then again, she must have rubbed off on me. was in school, i saying the lord's prayer one day and the teacher said, why are you singing this like a spiritual? and i said, i don't know what that is. i am singing it the way i want to. were you influenced by elvis presley? tom: definitely. what i wasoing doing. he was reassuring me. biggest what is the arena you have ever played in? tom: i did some county fairs in 1990's -- 1970's. they were like 50,000 people.

i had a quarter of a million when i was with and -- rin in australia, charlie: what brought you to together? tom: i don't know. tablee: he was at the months ago and he drew an amazing response. tom: yes. we went to australia for the football and that was a big stadium. charlie: take a look at this. women and girls ruled my world. i said they ruled my world mama ct your age now jan baby you could be my -- you

could be mine baby you could be fine. >> ♪ you don't have to be rich to be my girl you don't have to be cool to roll my world. i just want your extra time. gentlemen, ed s heeran. charlie: where did delilah come from? >> a man who cowrote the song. l andbeen friendly with heated the arrangementes on the green grass of home. the ding i was looking

for a new song and he came up with delilah. charlie: here it is. my, my, my delilah delilah why i could see that girl was no good for me but i was lost like a slave that no man could free undergarmentsany did you get thrown in after singing that? tom: quite a bit. charlie: how did that affect you? someone who of through something. but in terms of saying to the

world, this is one of the sex symbols to the world. the initial thing with the underwear was the coco cabana. levelstanding on the same and they were giving me table napkins because i was sweating a lot. this woman stood up and went like this. in clubs in south wales, whatever happens, you turn it into your advantage. charlie: working men's clubs? miners, exactly. if someone throws a bottle at you, you drink it and say thank you. it caught up with me as time went on. they would bring them in their handbags.

that is not the reason why i was there. i was there singing. charlie: but it did create an image. backfired. i became like a magnet. i never meant it to be. it caught up with me. ♪ shoot me right i'm going to like the way you find now you have found the secret code i use to wash away my lonely blues that i onlydeny want to make me fly say, youwhen will you have had enough? tom: i will die on stage. charlie: what is your biggest

passion outside of music? tom: good question. --on't really have one clear have one. performing. a list press over to you and asked how do you thing like that? tom: yes, when i first met him. it was at panama city is. -- they said elvis is here today and he wants to say hello. elvis was walking towards me singing with his hands. i thought, if the boys back home could see me now. i used to sing a lot of elvis presley songs. i said, i will meet him one day. the fellows used to say, tom, please.

hand,n i was shaking his all of these guys faces were flashing in front of me. it was tremendous. and we were friends from 1965 up until about two years before he died. then he started pushing everybody away. charlie: american blues had a big influence? tom: definitely. 1960's, which i started off in, we all started with blues music. morrison, the beatles, the rolling stones. all of us, of a certain age, the same age of john lennon. we all listen to that. about -- bb came king said that if it wasn't for the british rock bands, a blues might have died. but they brought it and sold it back to america.

charlie: because they love the musicality. tom: yes. and the case, they asked who influenced me. i said -- and they said, who? charlie: it really is, it is america's natural music. tom: of course, it is born in america. looking atht up listening to american movies. all of those movies were made in america. we had them in great britain. charlie: you were on the same wavelength as frank sinatra. tom: yes. but when i was in las vegas at the same time as elvis presley and frank sinatra, i recorded an album. it was a bunch of standards that i did with big arrangements. and elvis bought it and i asked what do you think?

he said, we don't do that. we leave that to frank. don't go there. and i said, i like that. and he said yes, but don't recorded. -- don't record it. sinatra, heaw frank would say, forget the rock 'n roll. you are a great jazz singer. i said yes, i like doing it all. so i was in a position where frank sinatra was trying to push me one way and elvis presley was pulling me another way. what a position to be in. being pulled by two of the greatest singers ever. charlie: what was it about frank sinatra? tom: i think it was the tone of his voice. he had a demanding tone. he was a very good singer.

i learned to appreciate frank sinatra later on. because rock 'n roll in the 1950's hit me hard. , i thought allin of the other stuff is old-fashioned. but when you get older and you , frank more about music sinatra started to make a lot of sense to me. then i started to watch a lot of his old movies. there was one song, old man river, and you hear how great his voice was. he had a quality and he set a trend. singers after that wanted to sound like frank sinatra. 1980's, things slow down. tom: i got complacent. not meaning to. but because of the success that 1960's-19 in the

70's, i was playing arenas in america throughout the 1970's into the 1980's, trying to get songs but they were not coming my way. and i thought, maybe they won't. maybe i will wait until a song comes. so i was playing places that may be a shouldn't have been in. was is why, in the box, i playing in a place where they had weddings in the daytime at singers at night. my son was working the lights for me. and he was trying to get the spotlight through chandeliers that were hanging there from the afternoon. honest, my son made me aware. he said, do you really want to play in these places? i said yeah, you are right. he made me aware.

, my my manager died original manager, there was a musical written by two british writers. they sent over these songs to l.a. and they said they had been looking for a singer to sing these songs and they had gone to an opera singer but they were too operatic and then they tried with pop singers but they didn't have the range. so they said, it comes down to you. so i said ok. i was listening to it and meanwhile, gordon mills had died and my son and my daughter-in-law just took over. my son had been working with the and he knew me better than anyone else. he listen to the songs and mark, he said, why do we bring

them to l.a. and try it. charlie: -- has been with you for 58 years. tom: yes. just almost 17 and she was 16 when we got married. charlie: how does she feel about the sex symbol thing? she saw a when we were kids. i would be singing at school. i come from a large family and to see me atome birthday parties and weddings. so she knew that i was aiming for that. i knew i could do it and she when i went to london, i met with gordon mills and she knew him from television. she knew he was a man who could

do something. -- i met him twice. no, munich inn -- 1968 at the equivalent of the with henryrds and mancini, we did cabaret. and richard simmons walked back and said would you like to have dinner. and he was there with elizabeth taylor. and they sat me in the middle and i was like -- charlie: what did you talk about? tom: he was talking about whales. he was so welsh. you should read his diary. he was there, richard burton and elizabeth taylor. this was 1968 and they put me in between them and i remember elizabeth taylor saying, do you

write? -- do you ride? had a pony ande and fellden came over off the horse and she was being very english and very proper. richard burton made fun of her and said, when i was a boy in swansea -- we went to the sea with -- you know what i mean? and i was thinking, oh my gosh. charlie: the life that you have had -- you get to meet so many interesting people. tom: yes, unbelievable. charlie: you get to have dinner with people from the audience. yes, richard burton and

elizabeth taylor invited me to dinner when i was 28 years old. these people i had seen since i was a child on the screen. it is tremendous. , davis, a singers great guy. friends.great dean martin was aloof. frank sinatra used to say that after they would do the shows in vegas, they would go watch -- in the lounge and he would sneak up to play golf in the morning. he was different. what is vegas like today? tom: it has changed a lot. there is a lot of cirque du soleil. , i thinkmusic but caesar's palace is the only place where they get headliners. john, cher and celine

dion. they built this theater for celine dion. that is the only game in town. there is a lot of clubs and electronic dance. tom: exactly, djs now and they are getting paid much more money. you call this, over the top and back. meaning? tom: well, i think i went over the top and went into those comfortable areas as i was talking about and then i thought wait a minute, let's get back to recording. so now i am back. especially with these albums. we went back to a rhythm section

country andlose, gospel flavored songs that i have been wanting to do for a long time. now i am doing it. charlie: look at this. this is a montage of you. roll tape. i think about you girl day et another [indiscernible] ♪

charlie: that is a life. tom: and i am still having it. charlie: and this picture? tom: i can't remember the photographer. is 1964. i am 24 years old. charlie: you are 75 years old? tom: yes. charlie: a great pleasure. tom jones, thank you for joining us. we will see you next time. ♪ it is not unusual to be loved by anyone it is not unusual to have fun with anyone

when i see you hanging about with anyone to see me cry al i want to die out not unusual to go aboutn i see you out and it is such a crime if you should ever want to be loved by anyone unusual it happens every day no matter what you say timeind it happens all the do what youver wanted to why can't this crazy love be ine ♪

it is not unusual to be mad with anyone it is not unusual to be sad with anyone but if i ever find that you have changed at any time it is not unusual to find out that i'm in love with you yeah to find that i am in love with you, oh, yeah to find that i am in love with -- to find out that i am in love , to find that i am in love with you it is not unusual it is not unusual it is not unusual i is not unusual to find that am in love

to find that i'm in love to find that i'm in love with you, yeah to find that i am in love, to find that i am in love to find that i'm in love with you, oh, yeah i said, it is not unusual it is not unusual it is not unusual well, it is not unusual t is not unusual it is not unusual

john: i'm john rodham heilemann. mark: i'm mark rodham halperin. and with all due respect to the "new york times," if you are going to drop it, we're going to pick it up. on today's show, obama plays deal or no deal and we play jeopardy. but first, the blame game. barack obama, hillary clinton, and many other democrats have reacted to the planned parenthood shooting calling for