announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: "the big short" is the new film from director and writer adam mckay. it is an adaptation of a book by the same name. the story follows a group of outsiders in the world of finance who bet against the credit and housing markets in the years leading up to the financial crisis. here's the trailer for the film. ♪ [telephone rings] >> michael, how are you?

>> i found something really interesting. >> the whole housing market is propped up on these bad loans. they will fail. >> the housing market is rock solid. >> it's a time bomb. >> mike murry who gets his hair cut at supercuts knows more than alan greenspan. >> he does. >> you know what? i'm pissed off. the american people are getting screwed by big banks. >> it's unbelievable. >> this guy walks into my office and says -- >> there's some shady stuff going down. >> we are having a big old party. >> a few outsiders saw what no one else could. >> the whole world economy might collapse. >> i'm sure the world bank has -- incentives for greed. >> no one is paying attention.

>> the banks got greedy. >> you want to bet against the banks? >> kind of brilliant. >> fraud has never, ever worked. eventually things go south. when the hell did we forget all that? ♪ >> how can the banks let this happen? >> that is not stability. that's fraud. >> tell me the difference between stupid and illegal and i will have my wife's brother arrested. >> do you have any idea what you just did? you bet against the american economy. >> if you're wrong, you can lose it all. >> the banks defrauded the american people. now we kick them in the teeth. >> here we go.

>> you talked to strippers. bad loans. >> not going to be able to refinance. >> on all my loans? i have five houses and a condo. charlie: joining me now is the film's writer and director adam mckay and steve carell. welcome. it is great to see you. look at this. hollywood occupies wall street. there you are. how'd you do that? adam: i still cannot figure it out. charlie: this is a comedy or a tragedy? adam: it is both. it is a true story. we knew from the beginning it would never adhere to one strict genre. these guys, real people that steve plays, when they found out there was a bubble, they were very excited.

these were exciting times. they were having -- there was a lot of energy. that changed and became tragic. charlie: you've wanted to do this. to read about you in this magazine, you wanted to make this movie about wall street and about the crash. adam: yeah. i read this book and i felt like michael lewis's book was one of the books of our times. i think it dealt with culture, it dealt with character and it dealt with information. you do not often see those three things intertwined so brilliantly. by the time i was done reading it, i felt i had looked behind the curtain of wall street -- i know what is more complicated than that. so, we decided with this movie that we were going to go for it all. we were going to try to explain it, have great characters, go for the whole thing.

charlie: it is a little different than "anchorman." adam: i do not think it is different at all. can you explain how it is different? [laughter] characters -- it was similar. steve: adam would be at the monitor. adam likes to work, he has a microphone. charlie: a megaphone. steve: amplified. he has a microphone. and he barks orders. he gives us -- adam: i'm very german when i direct. i want marks to be hit. steve: it was similar in a way to "anchorman," except the things were talking about. in the sense that you have complete freedom to fail. you knew that adam would protect you if you stunk, he would not put in the movie. that really is it.

it's a great protection because then you try all sorts of thing. charlie: you take risks. steve: it is great as an actor to be able to do that. charlie: tell me who this is that you portray, stephen eiseman? steve: the character's name in the movie is mark. we change the name. it is based on stephen. he is a brash, bold. he does not suffer fools. i met with him. actually, mr. eiseman showed up the second day i was shooting. and was instructed to sort of lay low. just be a fly on the wall and within minutes, he was giving adam notes. he was walking on the set giving the instruction. charlie: notes? steve: they were great. adam: the guy is a smart guy. look, steve, it is great to have you. you cannot disrupt the movie. when you see the movie, you are aware that carell doing mark is constantly getting phone calls in the middle of conversations and walking away from people. i went up to the real guy. steve, you cannot come in the middle of may -- he got a phone call and walked away. he is always on the phone. telling you what you should do. yet, you love him.

he is on the side of the angels. he is definitely a good guy. charlie: so, did you talk to them about the train the role, but what he thought? his mannerisms? steve: but sort of creepy doing that. you sit with somebody -- charlie: i thought great actors did that. steve: it is weird because you do not want to feel like you are stealing their soul. you do not want to feel like you are examining them. like they are some sort of a science project. when you're sitting across from them in a diner on the upper east side. ooh, look what he did with his hand. that is just weird. -- ooh, look what he did with his hand. you do not feel like you -- you do not want to feel like you are taking advantage. i want to be respectful and pay respect to him as a person in the portrayal. charlie: it is hard to say after the last one that anything is a turn for you. because you have made the turn. [laughter]

steve: that could be interpreted so many different ways. charlie: you know what i meant. steve: adam is going to the same sort of thing because he is known for "anchorman." i've known adam since 1990. anyone who knows him knows this is not a big surprise. charlie: they accept the fact he would want to make this kind of film. steve: and that he would do it so elegantly. he's so smart. and so passionate. it's a perfect fit. charlie: someone said in writing in other pieces about him that in a group of comedians he is the funniest guy in the room, even though you have never seen him on screen. steve: definitely. absolutely. he is the guy with the microphone. he is the one lobbying those

lines out that is everyone's lines -- favorite lines in the movie. your job is to try and say without laughing and without ruining his delivery. so, yeah. he is the funniest person there. charlie: why no role for will ferrell here? adam: we discussed it. there are some cameos we could do. he said, no, do this on your own. god bless will. he came down and visited the set and hung out. that's will. he had no reason to be there other than to support the guy he works with and we had a great time with him. he has been amazing. charlie: people who watch the show have heard me interview michael 10 times, including about "the big short." tell me the story, for those of us, that you tell in the film. adam: what drew me to it -- michael lewis is an amazing writer. it is a book everyone should read. what i loved about it was he burrows down on these four or five outsiders who, despite the numbers being cartoonishly obvious that there was a housing bubble, for some reason this little group of guys were the only ones that saw it.

and right away i was hooked because i just love what is that about our culture? charlie: all of the smart people on wall street did not and the small group of guys did. adam: on top of that he has humor, rhythm, and most of all he has got information. by the time i was done reading the book, i felt like i did pretty good shape of what led to the 2008 collapse. yet i'd been completely engaged with these characters who are so amazingly played by these actors. i just never read a book that did that much -- where was learning, engaged, it was dramatic, tragic, funny. it is effortless. charlie: assuming you knew all the stuff about derivatives. [laughter] steve: that is what adam called. he knew it would be so easy for me to improvise. it is hard because adam likes to improvise. to improvise a leg which you do not speak is tricky.

you have to throw some things in your back pocket and bone up a bit before you -- charlie: pronounce it is certainly? steve: phonetically. but there were days, some of the actors were better. jeremy strong was great at it. he was always loaded and was really articulate. but i know, no, did not know much about it. i read the book and learned as much as i could before we started. charlie: did you learn something about the financial industry because of this? steve: i did. it's terrifying. charlie: -- how it could've happened? nobody smart saw it coming. they do something about the housing market. steve: it is terrifying that it could happen again, and that nothing has really changed. adam: we say it at the beginning

of the movie, we say all they did was look. it's terrifying that a whole society can be looking to the right when the information is to the left. the total amount of people that caught this work 22 people. -- were 22 people. we focus on these four or five, but it's amazing that billions of people can be looking in one direction -- charlie: michael found them, too. adam: that's lewis. charlie: knew who he was. he was looking for a way to tell the story. then he found a few guys who bet on their own. and then picked -- adam: the characters that would make the best story. he found the true outsiders. if you look at the other people that bet. the christian bale character is amazing. he is a guy who listens to speed metal. the glass eyes on the spectrum. when i talk to them he was one of the most brilliant, honest

decent people you will meet in your life. ♪

♪ charlie: let's go to the first thing where steve's character is talking on the phone to his wife, played by marissa tomei. all right? here it is. >> hey, excuse me! hi, honey. >> the syrup is cold. you did it again. >> there were no cabs.

>> you are running around like you have to write every wrong in the world. so angry. >> i'm pissed off. you have no idea the kind of crap people are pulling and everyone is walking around like they are in a damn enya video. they care about the ballgame or they care about what actress just went into rehab. >> i think you should try vacation. >> we agreed that interferes with work. i love my job. >> you hate your job. >> i love my job. i love my job. >> mark, you are miserable. >> i love my job. i'm ok. my cab. that's my cab. >> it is not. >> i'll call you later. [laughter] charlie: so now that he's gone, tell me about him as an actor and the betrayal he gives you up

with this character. adam: he is so humble that i knew he would be good. i worked with him in chicago doing theater, second city. and what i saw in this movie was this hunger for the moment, this tenacious "i won't quit until i know it's true." it was a completely unique experience working with him because i felt like we were both chasing down a straight path with every take. charlie: eiseman is a larger-than-life character. he found a way to get inside. he did not just do impressions. adam: absolutely. if you meet the real steve eiseman, he is very confident, very funny. reads comic books.

he brought this vulnerability. you can see the anger, the betrayal by the world in every scene. it is so perfect. he really did fine, he got a seat on the ground with a character that would have been very easy to go super big with. he has amazing instincts. he came in knowing, he has a big speech moment in the end of the movie that could easily have been hollywood strings. this is the moralistic moment. all steve did was say, i do not want to be that. we fought against that. to make it as real as we could while having it be a speech. it has great instincts. he knows when it is for real. he knows what he wants to see and then he just works and pushes to get there. that other guy he reminded me up was christian bale. charlie: as actors?

adam: yeah. as far as huge amounts of preparation and an amazing nose for the truth. charlie: actors do that on their own? do they go do that and when they show up they have it? adam: as a director you encourage them. i told steve, i would love to put on -- you to put on some weight. so, steve showed up 20 pounds heavier. i was like, oh, i do not think you would put on that some weight. i would love you to spend time with the real guy -- christina. learns how to play drums. charlie: learns how to play drums? adam: yes, in three weeks. especially the kind of drums he had to play with speed metal, one of the hardest forms of drums. in three weeks christian bale learned this by pantera. incredibly difficult song with double kick drums. played it nonstop. a lot of people think of these guys as big movie stars. they are famous. christian bale, brad pitt. they are really good. charlie: is brad pitt producing this as well? adam: he and his company plan b.

charlie: the got the rights to the book early. was it a hard book to make into a film? adam: for me, i have always been looking for this chance to mess with the form. i've always known that film has been around for a long time, and i've seen some movies i really liked like "24 hour party people" and like "american giamatti, with paul where they played with breaking the fourth wall. i felt like audiences can handle that. 30 years ago, no. when i read this book, yes, it's difficult but i knew if i played with the fourth wall i could pull it off. so that is exactly what drew me to it. charlie: what does brad play? adam: he is the mentor to the

two greenhorns. the rookies. he's the old gunslinger who hated wall street so much. now he is the common end times prepper. he really thinks the whole world is going down. it is based on a true guy. these young's guys convince him to come out of retirement -- so they can start trading these big-time options. charlie: this is what new york magazine sai.d it said, "lately before mckay and his wife go to bed, he and his wife talk about climate change. he is that he might do a movie about it next. it will be serious but with some cool stuff. then again, he is also interested in immigration. do think there is a way to do movie about immigration that is a comedy and yet people who are anti-immigration would go see it? to have some degree of enjoying it?" [laughter] adam: we kind of did it with "talladega nights." there is a way you can do this that is not condescending, not

judgmental. we are all in this. we are all trying to figure this out. can you do a movie where guys protect our border, these hapless characters, and end up crossing over to mexico and have to get back in? i don't know. charlie: but do you as a writer and a director have a keen sense of interest in public affairs? adam: i just think we live in incredibly unusual times right now. i just think there are a lot of things happening right now that have never happened in the history of mankind. the giant media machine we have in the united states with thousands of tv channels. charlie: that is why you made "anchorman." the basic cable industry. adam: exactly. i think we have this interconnectedness going on with

our financial system, the internet. there are some things happening. and we have climate change, which possibly could be the biggest threat to mankind ever. i just think to ignore the subjects would be foolish. charlie: you can find absurdity in all of them. they are all comedy. adam: they are all crazily absurd. charlie: what is the connection between you and will? adam: we just have this crazy partnership. it started back in "saturday night live." charlie: you were the head writer. adam: he comes from a divorced family. his dad is a musician. we are the same age. we laugh at the same things. what i love about will is he just, he does not believe any of the hype. he is in no way full of himself. both of us believe in no drama. and both of us sort of constantly laugh about the fact that people are stressing out about movies, where in 40 years we are not going to be watching movies anymore. 4d virtual-reality discs. so, yeah, it has been an amazing relationship. he has also got a great sort of view of the world. he is politically social yet not strident.

he has got a sense of humor. we have an amazing partnership. charlie: are you interested in the presidential primaries? adam: i guess so. sort of like finding the power in your fridge went out and everything is rotten inside. charlie: you did not know it was this bad. adam: it is really shocking. i am 47 and i feel like a 90-year-old man when i talk about it. "it did not used to be this way." charlie: when you think of trump, do you want to create a character like trump knowing it would be an instant success on television? adam: we actually -- on "funny or die" we did a character called denaldo trumpez, a mexican trump. complaining about the all the americans coming down to drink tequila. wanted to build a wall. that ended up getting 25 million

hits. i have never seen anything like trump and ben carson. it is beyond the bounds of satire. the movie "network" looks so quaint and rustic. charlie: it's just so far out there. adam: if "network" happened now, you would not even blink. the guy got people to yell out their windows. charlie: in the "new york magazine," you told in the same piece, you said, "i don't think this movie is just about banking." how does the system go wrong? what happened so that all of a sudden you have a bubble?

adam: i think this is one of the big questions confronting us as humans in the next 100 years. how it is very easy to start to create an institution but it's hard to maintain them. and corruption, especially when we are doing as well as we are because of this money flowing around, tends to seep in faster, i think this is the next great question we have to confront, whether it is climate change or banking or the military or whatever it is. we have have to look. i would even point to terrorism to say that a lot of those terrorists are coming from country that are crazily corrupt where the bottom 90% have no money and the top 10% have money. i think it is the number one issue. and that is really what kind of what drew me to this. that dynamic is something that needs to be heavily explored and discussed. in an abstract way. regardless -- charlie: the drawing board? adam: as far as movies? i am looking at a couple different movies.

i have an interesting one about immigration with will ferrell and i. i'm looking at a movie about sociopaths that is a little darker. the idea of our culture, eventually we want to cultivate sociopaths, because they make a lot of money. they are great for corporations. they are great as surgeons. a dark comedy. there's another script i'm kicking around which is a dark superhero script. i have three or four projects kicking around. you always see which one takes root. exactly. charlie: it is great to have you. adam: pleasure. charlie: "the big short" is the movie. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪ charlie: the great ron howard

is here. an academy award-winning director and producer. his films include "apollo 13" and "frost nixon." his latest is "in the heart of the sea." it tells the true story of the disastrous voyage that inspired "moby dick." here is the trailer for the film.

♪ >> we were headed for the edge of sanity. like we were apparitions, phantoms. trust gave way to doubt. ♪ hope to superstition. ♪

>> the tragedy of the essex is a story of men. and a demon. ♪ charlie: i am pleased to have ron howard back at this table. welcome. ron: good to be here as always, charlie. charlie: the true story of the essex. what is the story? ron: wheel ship essex left in 1819. in 1820, it was looking for whales. charlie: it moved further out in the ocean. ron: the whales, hunted.

that was the energy industry of its time. whale oil, that was lighting the streets of paris, london, new york, philadelphia, lowering crime rates. it was a huge market issue. but it was political. in its own way, it was as relevant as oil, the energy industry, is today. these guys for all the reasons of ambition, trying to feed their families, going further and further out. and they were struck by a whale -- a bull sperm whale sank the ship. and they were forced to abandon. and struggle to survive. and this is that story. and 30 years later it inspired herman melville to write "moby dick." i had no idea that that mythic figure, that whale existed.

charlie: and somebody came along to write a story about that, which is the movie. ron: nathaniel philbrick wrote about the story of the essex which had been forgotten. when i found out about it, i felt like it was -- it scratched an itch. for a long time, i wanted to make a movie set in the sea. in a playful way i had done some sequences for "splash" and "cocoon." getting over my phobia of the ocean. charlie: what is your phobia, drowning? ron: the darkness, the isolation, and the hugeness. i don't feel like i would have any control out there. anyway -- directors like control. it is a very powerful story. and i felt like it was something really original to offer

audiences. when i say that, it seems odd, because there is a classical nature to this. so many of the themes do resonate today. from a cinematic standpoint, i do not think this movie could have been put together this way without movie technology that's finally in place. when i saw "life of pi," i finally realized this story could exist and that character could not, of the whale, would not be something the audience would have to suspend disbelief, but instead, you can have a totally immersive experience in the theater watching this. charlie: what is that technology? ron: cgi. photo realism. cgi has been with us for a long time. the movie i did in 1987 was "willow." it worked for fantasy for a long time very effectively, but photo realism is always a challenge. in recent years, that

breakthrough has been made and allows directors to get more and more of what it is they are dreaming of, imagining in their minds onto the screen. charlie: i want to get back to this story in a moment but the technical challenge of this is huge. ron: the technical challenge was huge. charlie: you have a big water tank out there. ron: it was a combination of things. it is probably the most challenging movie i have ever made. the logistics. the narrative, the structure of this movie is a little bit unusual. it's, the drama, the demands on the actors. they had to drop weight. remarkable. charlie: they were away for a year. ron: they were adrift for 90 days. i had to keep minding that and creating an environment where they could flourish. and then there are the technical challenges.

both in terms of shooting on tanks and matching that with things we are going to shoot in the real ocean. the planning had to be so thorough, and yet it is a live action movie. at the end of the day, you do not know what elements you are dealing with -- charlie: did you have to go with a certain kind of training with the actors? ron: they went to, they went to sailor school and whaling school. and we had technical advisors. we had help from, there's a fantastic museum in nantucket. mystic. new bedford as well. and we had a captain from the south street seaport who knows all about the tall ships. and helped us with that. charlie: and you had to re-create nantucket. ron: that was old-school hollywood stuff. do your designs, do your research and build the set. i felt like i was a kid on the

mgm lot. speaking of mgm, when i was about 8 years old, i was doing "courtship of eddie's father," and my dad was with me. i saw a lot of people in sort of tricorn hats. we followed them and it was the remake of "mutiny on the bounty." there was a stage that had this big tank. and there was the bounty and marlon brando was in the part. and charles lawton was once again playing the captain. i remember standing there and watching this thing float in the tank, never imagining that i would wind up directing a scene with similar challenges. charlie: what is interesting is the first scene in the movie when melville shows up to interview the last survivor of the essex. ron: it's him with his burning desire to get to the bottom of the story. charlie: melville's?

this guy was not even talking to his wife about it. ron: there was survivor's guilt. they had no idea at the time, but -- gleason, the actor who plays the older nickerson, tom holland plays the younger nickerson. much of the movie is seen through his eyes. charlie: why is that? ron: i like the immediacy of a point of view approach. i feel that i am, i want these kind of adventure stories to not be grand canvases but to be focused. what would it be like to be there? that is one of my guiding theories.

charlie: whenever i have someone like that here, i say, take me there. give me a sense of what it was like for you to be there at the moment of your worst fear. ron: it is fascinating to look back at this story and directorally interesting because you are dealing with a mythic figure and it was interesting to play with it. the men themselves are transformed by this crisis. they went out there with a lot of hubris, pride. that was the period of manifest destiny. our job is to conquer the world. and everything else should bow. and here, you know, they were confronted with this force of nature. and when, after the whale sank the ship, in their journals you can see them wondering, is this divine retribution and for the life we have lived? because whaling was slaughter. it was the most brutal kind of mercenary industry you can imagine. charlie: you have on the one

hand the ship versus the whale. on board you have the conflict between pollard, the captain. ron: that is very much out of filbrook's book. pollard, he sort of reflected that the class system that existed in nantucket at the time. that was a little more european. and owen chase was more of that jacksonian new american, not from the island, but expected, the respect of all he had achieved. by all accounts, he was kind of the michael jordan of it all. he could just do anything, and everybody, some feared him, but everyone admired him. charlie: played by chris hemsley.

ron: i had a great experience with him on "rush." i thought he more than inhabited the character. he developed a character in very surprisingly creative ways. and so, when he brought this to me and i read about the real owen chase, i thought that he was born to play this part. i was about to say it, i had twice before prepared movies and could not ultimately get the financing together and make the productions go. charlie: earlier in your career? ron: in the middle of my career. early in the 1980's, i wanted to do a true story of -- about the greenpeace ship "rainbow warrior." it had been confiscated by the spanish, in spanish waters. and there was a cool escape. i never could get that together. then, oh, around 2000, i wanted to make the "sea wolf." jack london's book. i like that 19th century, rugged adventure with the sea testing

men on the moral dilemmas that arise. i did not get that movie off the ground, either. the reasons were kind of mutual, because i did not think i could necessarily achieve it in a way that i could presented to audiences and really fulfill the possibilities of the story. when chris brought me this, a kind of -- charlie: chris brought it to you? ron: it is a script that paula weinstein had had for 12 years. since philbrick's book, she optioned it. and you know, i looked at it and i thought, the technology is here to do this. i have all these experiences

behind me. i think i know how to do it now in a way that i could not have confidence before. i thought chris hemsworth was the perfect guy to inhabit that role. charlie: then you got benjamin walker. ron: a great new york actor, and then cillian murphy. brendan gleeson. young tom holland. an excellent cast. charlie: where did you find the ship? ron: we found a ship in england. a tall ship. it gets used in movies. they use it for educational purposes. it's very busy. it is called the phoenix. it was about the size of the essex. we had to convert it with some set pieces to make it look like a whaler. and then we had to build the deck of that. and use that for, on a tank with hydraulics for the whale attack, for a storm, for some other

action. when were out to see in the canary islands back on the phoenix -- charlie: sailing across the atlantic. ron: we filmed all that and got a lot of details. then we went out there with our actors that went through sailing school. in the whale boats, after they were adrift. charlie: this is the essex setting sail. >> mr. chase -- the anchor. >> take the helm. make sail. let's go. [shouting indiscriminate orders] >> the essex still won't clear! ♪ >> watch your step. >> stand clear.

>> oh! >> make sail. >> nice piece of work. charlie: there you go. ron: well, that is just chase making it look easy. yeah. look, it was thrilling to enter this world and learn something. i think this period of time between getting to make "rush," learning about formula one, and this story has been one of the richest, most interesting

creative periods for me. it is a fun time. i am getting to make some documentaries. my kids are grown. i am trying to explore the media. charlie: it may be the best time of your life? ron: maybe. i've had some great rich periods. that time around making "apollo 13." charlie: what about the time between "apollo 13" and "a beautiful mind?" ron: i did "ransom." "the grinch." charlie: did you do another one from the trilogy? ron: dan brown. the robert langton mysteries.

"inferno." we just finished filming in europe. that was a great experience, a lot of fun. look, the business side is more and more complicated. in every aspect of media, there's a transformation going on. that puts stress on economics but it also opens up a lot of channels creatively. i think it is an incredibly exciting time. charlie: a lot of people working at hbo and showtime and doing remarkable stuff. ron: it is broadening, and with it, audiences tastes are growing more sophisticated. you're able to make films that target specific audiences in ways you could not justify before. as a storyteller that is exciting. charlie: this is another scene on the ocean. when the crew of the essex is getting ready for a storm. here it is. [wind howling] >> that squall, starboard bow. >> not just yet, mr. chase. >> this is moving faster than that. >> let it come. they need a good baptism. let them know how it works. >> we don't shorten sail, it'll catch us on the beam. >> chase, we will stand on. hold our course.

>> we'll lose half a day running that late. we will skirt the edge of it. the men can't handle this, then god help us all. charlie: there you go, the conflict between your characters. ron: again, out of philbrick's book. pollard came from a family, famous whaling family. he was determined to prove himself. a lot of pressure from the family to come through. again, the companies investing, they were more than entrepreneurs. this is an industry. and there was national pride at stake, all of it. and so, he was determined to go. the events that follow, which are a horrific storm and a knockdown, all came out of the true story. charlie: how much do you enjoy the preparation before you start shooting, getting to know the story that you want to tell?

ron: i love it. i dodged movies based on real events for a couple of decades as a director, because i thought it would limit my creativity. but i've always loved history. "apollo 13" taught me it was liberating. it was inspiring. and the other thing is that not only is the research amazing, not only do you get these opportunities to do what you do -- interview people, try to inhabit their head space -- but the stories you can choose, the more credibility. because the extreme event happened. no one can argue with it. i will tie quickly. i was doing test screenings with a cards where people fill out their likes and dislikes. even though i have final cut, i like to know how audiences are responding. early on with "apollo 13" it was universally appreciated. there was one guy who rated it poor. charlie: that is the guy you

want to talk to? ron: that was the card i looked for. there had been no advertising. nobody knew anything about "apollo 13" or remembered the mission. but this guy wrote terrible, i would not recommend it. i flipped over the page, please comment on it ending. he wrote "more hollywood b.s. they would never survive." he did not know it was a true story. this is why you do a true story because they did survive. charlie: and the talent of a filmmaker is to be able to make a movie where people know the ending. ron: i discovered also with that, and i've seen it over on over again and it helped me when i am making fictional movies, is the more the details are interesting, you might know overall kind of what happened, but when you see a movie, you are moviegoer, you kind of can guess the endings of most

movies. you'd probably be close. what's fascinating is you do not know what the characters are going to experience. and you don't know who is going to make it. but you also don't have an idea about just the attention that can be involved in navigating these various crisis points. whatever tone, whatever genre, every movie has to be a suspense movie. that is what i have discovered making "apollo 13". i think "in the heart of the sea" is a cousin to "apollo 13." you go out with one attitude, and an intense thing changes everything. and then you come back and some people transform and other people tragically don't. that's sort of the story of the essex.

charlie: transform or adapt? ron: both. i think philosophically, based on some of the notes i saw of the men, there was a philosophical transformation as well. again, they went out there with this hubris, this is my realm. i am a seamen. what happened, one of those whales turned on them -- that they began to doubt everything about their place in the world. charlie: this is another look at the whale. here it is. [pounding] >> oh! >> what was that? >> -- >> oh! [grunting]

ron: we did not exaggerate. charlie: was that filmed on the sea? ron: a lot of that was filmed on the tank. again, the whale is cgi. that is the size of the whale, that big. charlie: what color was the whale? ron: the whale was not white. there was an albino whale that melville used.

there was a skin disorder that older whales can get that makes it look blotchy. it has been fascinating to bring this story to audiences. and i think it is, you know, i think it is something that demands to be seen on the big screen. i think you need to define that as a movie director today. because, there are more and more distractions, more reasons to do other things. and yet, the big screen movie experience is something that can be very memorable. charlie: has robert langdon turned out to be the character you wanted him to be? because, i always, i thought he had the possibilities of being indiana jones.

ron: well, the books, the dan brown books always guide us. and langdon is a man of intellectual action. and that's his superpower is his ability to recall and problem solve but, you know, he is not a man of action. that is always what attracted tom hanks to the character. charlie: a thinking man. ron: he is not solving it by punching people out or shooting them. it's always about trying to out think. right. and so, i enjoy those movies. they are lot of. they take you to all corners of the world, especially europe. delving into areas. and tom loves playing robert langdon. i love directing tom. the dan brown stories are very original and "inferno" is a fun

one to stage. charlie: at what point did he write "inferno?" it is great to have you. ron: likewise. charlie: the film is called "in the heart of the sea." it opens in theaters in imax 3d, of course, on friday, december 11. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪ >> brilliant ideas, powered by

hyundai motors. ♪ >> the contemporary art world is vibrant and booming as never before. it is a 21st-century phenomenon, a global industry in its own right. "brilliant ideas" looks at the artists at the heart of this. they have a unique power to inspire, astonish, provoke, and shock. in this episode, south korean artist lee bul. ♪