john: today we would rather listen to bow we. ♪ john: greetings from des moines, iowa. or ground control. we are three weeks out from the iowa caucuses, and democratic candidates are gathering here in the city tonight for the iowa brown and black for. -- brown and black forum. it is built on the oldest presidential forum focused on minority issues.

we will talk to representatives from bernie sanders and hillary clinton, but first, we face the reality of the democratic nomination. there is a new nbc news/wall street journal poll that confirms what the sanders campaign has been feeling on the for a wild -- clinton's advantage in iowa has disappeared for the most part. if clinton's behavior is any indication, she is feeling at least some pressure from zanders after hitting him on gun control and shadow banking. clinton was again made her case to iowa voters against sanders in waterloo. >> we both have had a chance support legislation, to try and rain in the gun lobby. president obama and i were both in the senate and we voted no. senator sanders voted yes. that is a big difference between

us. in addition to her turning up the heat on sanders directly, she also came up with a new television ad in iowa, presenting herself as the only viable candidate to keep the white house out of the hands of the republican party. >> backward, even dangerous. so ask yourself -- who was the one candidate who can stop them? hillary clinton. tested in tough. to stop them, stand with her. john, given the general consensus that bernie sanders has some momentum, how far will clinton have to go to stop him in the caucuses? john: i don't know how far she will have to go but she will go as far as she needs to. as far as is necessary. there's no doubt that the clinton campaign for the better part of the year now has felt they could win iowa and the nomination would be over. the fact that sanders has his

momentum, the electability ad, i think there is no question that it is about to get -- if not dirty, at least competitive. mark: in a normal race against a normal candidate, a front runner like clinton would probably are to be out of negative ads. if she runs a negative ad, no matter how tame, it could backfire. she faces some tough choices. she is passionate about an issue like uncontrolled, very effective -- an issue like gun control. let's see if she tries to freshen up her attacks and contrast, because sanders does have momentum. john: one of the fundamental things in politics is that it is hard to go negative on a popular candidate. both of these candidates are extraordinarily popular among democrats, that the advantage

sanders has right now is that he is performing better with independent voters. she will start to point to the fact that for a long time he was not a democrat. she is stronger with core democrats. i think she will try to point that out, and you will see that attack coming soon. mark: she will have to slow his momentum. john: no doubt. speaking of not so friendly fire, donald trump been stretching the limits of his supposedly's with ted cruz -- truce with' with t ted cruz. >> he has to figure it out. i think he can go in for some kind of judiciary preceding. it the matter what he does. you can't have a nominee who is going to be subject of being thrown out as a nominee. you will have to make that decision.

it is one of those little decisions. thrilled.ed is he's got to go and fix it. latest, this is not the but it is by far from the first. cruz has been dealing with this for the better part of a week. let's take a look at how he has responded. you tell us if you think he is genuinely thrilled that trump is bumping him out. politicians behave a certain way when they are panicked. people will continue to make political noise about it, but as a legal matter, it is quite straightforward. >> is it possible that there is a distinction? >> the legal question is straightforward and clear. the internet has all sorts of favorite theories, but facts assembled, my mom was born in delaware, an american citizen.

i have never briefed a breath of air on this planet when i was not a u.s. citizen. i have never been naturalized. it was the process of being born that made me a u.s. citizen. by virtue of being born to my mother in calgary, i was a citizen by birth. john: new polls still show trump leading his rivals by double digits. cruz appears to be losing altitude in iowa with that new nbc news/wall street journal poll. mark, my question -- as cruz falls in trump holds steady, is the reason cruz is following this birther question? mark: i don't know what this is a-boot. john: [laughter] mark: it seems like you might be falling a little bit. people say he looks frustrated, but i don't think he is worried. that he is frustrated because it

is something he doesn't think is an issue. sense of a great what issues hurt people. if you think something will hurt, eventually he will be proven to be right. what i do think his cruz does face the choice. does he keep turning the other cheek? guysodd to have two competing here in iowa. and the other guy turning the other cheek -- john: trump thinks he is on to a winner here. like a dog with a bone, he won't give it up. he has not shown evidence of frustration. he has not gone off message so far. but after a while, trump has proven be remarkably persistent before the person falls apart. i know it is their strategy to not hit back. would exhibit

extraordinary discipline not to impact it. mark: all year, donald trump is in rewriting the rulebook of presidential campaigns, but some might say the latest in new hampshire are bordering on sacrilegious. first of all, trump is waging an open fight with the publisher of "the new hampshire union leader," the conservative newspaper that endorsed chris christie. was just booted as the cosponsor of an upcoming republican debate, after trump complained that the paper is biased against him. now trump is targeting yet another respected new hampshire institution, johnson knew. here's what trump said at his rally today. wrotere is a guy who an article in this phony paper, and it was so bad -- i don't even know the guy. known that sheen was fired by bush. he was fired.

he was fired like a dog, viciously. he's such a dumb guy that he doesn't even know he was fired. mark: we were kind of curious to see what john would think about this, so we chatted him up earlier. this afternoon to get his response. >> i am just try and make sure voters do what they normally do, get selective about the casting of their vote. i hope they begin to see that trump has no substance, that he is all mouth. justis outburst today shows another reason why he shouldn't be commander-in-chief, in addition to the fact that we saw he doesn't know anything about national security issues when he was dumbfounded at the nuclear triad issue. i think the voters will begin to realize -- i hope they will begin to realize -- that he is not a conservative, he is a political chameleon. mark: our full discussion with

him will be on bloombergpolitics .com. john, trump tangled with fox news in not only lived to tell thrived. but is he taking any risk by fighting with the union leader and with the governor? john: zero risk. anti-risk. it is so obvious that it's painful to say it. it is based on attacking institutions. voters, they are the perfect target for the kind of campaign trump is running. he benefits from doing this. mark: i love "the union leader," i read it on the web. they endorsed chris christie, but they don't have the influence they want. john: neither does the governor. mark: but trump -- he has a good instinct for insults and putdowns and went to pick fights. i agree that he is probably not taking any risk. john: voters don't care about

those -- when "the union leader" begins to push him there could be a bit of a confluence. that is the only risk i think he is taking. john: every time an established institution offers himself up by attacking trump, they are helping him rather than anything else. coming up, the sean penn problem. the battle between three top-tier republican candidates who have three very different strategies. later, we will talk more about the democratic race with hillary clinton and the national political director. more after this. ♪

john: there are two new compelling stories to frame our next discussion. first is by our colleague here at bloomberg politics, mike bender. he has a new piece out today contrasting the campaign strategies of donald trump and ted cruz. meanwhile, our partners and friends at "the des moines register" published analysis of tv ad buying in iowa, and shows that marco rubio plans to blanket the airways. together, these stories highlight the diverging tactical endgames of the three leading gop candidates. trump winning as he has been for months on his big rallies and media spotlight, cruz putting -- ephesus on retail camp putting his emphasis on retail campaigning and armies of volunteers, and marco rubio and his super pac's are going big on tv. mark, every candidate has a mix of things they do.

with these guys and their particular emphases, are any of them in danger of putting too many eggs in whatever basket? mark: i think all of them are smartly playing to their strength. trump's is just right for him. it's a surprise to me that rubio has and tried to build a bigger game because there's a chance he won't build a big capture. the big mystery if ted cruz does not go as well, is why did he and his super pac wait so long? they have advertised on television but not very much. they are comfortable with where they are and i'm surprised he's not compment in the grand game with more television. john: i think the only one who right now is not in danger of putting too many eggs in a basket is trump. i agreement you about cruz. alone --ing he's not there is this obsession with television and the lack of a ground game, of retail politics, of anything else. at leasts up not

getting to dominate the establishment lane, people will say -- you had to be in these states more. mark: my hunch is that the trump people have been hiding the ball on how much they have done on the ground. i think they have done more with data and organizing than they have let on. they want to surprise people. you can see there is a real understanding -- he's that on tv now with some paid media, pretty substantially compared to nothing before. but i think they have all got -- i think they are all playing to their strengths. john: final topic today on this block of journalistic integrity. sean penn is under the spotlight after "the rolling stone" published his interview with el .hapo, who had been on the lam since last year in,yone has been weighing

with some questioning penn's decision to give the warlord final say. others say he should have alerted authorities. john, did actor/journalist john sean penn do anything wrong? john: yes and no. there is no journalist who should give any subject, let alone a drug kingpin, final say over what they publish. that is bad. on the other hand, should he have done it at all or alerted authorities?: if i was a journalist doing a story about a drug kingpin -- i don't think my obligation in that instance is to become an informant. that is not your job. mark: exactly backwards. he's not a journalist. he collaborated with the guy. he's an actor. if he worked with a guy on a story, no one would care. he should have told authorities

about the guy's whereabouts. in this case, with someone who has ruined so many lives, i just think you are under an obligation to tell the authorities that you know the whereabouts of someone like that. for -- you want el chapo to control the story, but then get arrested. mark: not control, collaborate. [laughter] i'm glad we disagree about fundamental journalistic ethics. coming up, hillary clinton's national political director will join us on set. we'll do that right after this word from our sponsors. ♪

john: the reason we are here in newsdes moines register" room is because the presidential candidates are gathered for the quadrennial brown and black forum, which will focus on key issues for minority communities. here to preview the event and talk about her boss, hillary clinton, amanda, her national political director. >> thank you. mark: we have been spending time with the sanders campaign on the ground, and they say he has momentum. true or not true? >> i think you are seeing the polls tighten, which we always expected to happen. but if you are on the ground, knocking on doors, i think you are seeing are folks there every step of the way. you can see our grand game heating up as well. we feel pretty good about it,

but certainly the polls are tightening. mark: is there a favorite or is there a jump ball? >> i feel great about our fundamentals, and using a sports metaphor, we have a great game plan. i think we look great. john: we have seen in the last few days a shift, a change in tone of your campaign. a little more contrast riven, going after bernie sanders and she has been. re's a says that sanders is on offense and clinton is on defense? >> now is the phase where you start to build the contrast, where you start to say what is the alternative? i think that is the natural part of this campaign. when it comes to guns, we are showing the distinction. we are showing the distinction, that she is fighting for families. john: how do you answer the notion that you have this on stability ad, the only once you can stop republicans from

retaking the white house. bernie sanders says that the polling is in head-to-head matchup so the republicans. how do you respond? >> two things. aboutsthat ad i as much what is at stake in this election and how important it is that we have a candidate who can beat the republicans. and she has been tested. part of that ad, you saw the 11 hour benghazi hearing, what it looks like for hillary clinton to stand up after she has been hit by republicans over and over again. i'm not sure we have seen that the sanders campaign. 11 hours of testimony -- say: again, what do you when he points these polls? he is doing better with attendance. >> i just say, we have got the most tested candidate out there. she has been through this over and over again throughout her entire life and has waged these

battles over and over. we really haven't seen that kind of pressure on him quite yet, and we will. and things change once you get attacked. it is a whole different ballgame. mark: we speculated earlier about whether between now and the caucuses secretary clinton would run an ad mentioning bernie sanders. you need to speculate. you know wil. will she? >> we will continue to focus on raising the stakes in making sure people know what she has done -- seeing isat you are the alternative. right? what do she stand for? i think you'll see that on the stump more often. john: may be on tv. >> i can't say. [laughter] john: let's talk about the forum tonight. for the communities that are the main audience for this, what is the biggest difference between hillary clinton and bernie sanders in terms of the records?

>> a couple things. i think the history she has had with the african-american latino communities dates back to early days of texas, fighting on voting rights. i think it doesn't compare. john: in terms of the duration? >> in terms of what she has fought for. voting rights, going to communities and knocking on doors in texas. when she first started this campaign, talking about voting rights in houston, going to no doubt thate is on the issues she has been there for a long time, and that we jumped in red at the beginning. i think even as you are seeing her wage battles now on the differences of the affordable care act -- how will that affect these communities? millionion latinos, 2.3 african-americans have the affordable care act.

when you start to look at the fights she is waging, not only is she waging the battles, but she is digging deeper to see how it will affect the communities of color that i want to fight for, and it's important for people to know that we are thinking about all communities. john: when you talked to mark: last time you were on the show, you talk about how you tell young staffers there will be moments in the campaign they will remember forever. honestly this campaign is a close to being over, but have you had any moments like that so far? >> you know, there has been some really touching moments. there have been a couple. when she sat with her mother -- i wasn't there, but my colleagues were. they talked about one of the more powerful moments of sitting with mothers who had been affected by guns and what happened to their children. hearing them come back and tell that story, sitting in nevada

when she was with the dreamers, showcasing stories that haven't been told ever before, those are kind of the moments that so far i will really remember. regardlessu expect, of the outcome in iowa and new hampshire's, that senator sanders will continue into the spring? >> yes. we have always been under that plan, that we have to make sure we are prepared for long-term. mark: thank you very much. next, we will hear from the bernie sanders campaign. join us here right after this. ♪

♪ anchor: and we return now to

another candidate at the forum tonight, and bernie sanders, two supporters, nina turner and ellen garcia, on the county board of conditioners -- commissioners. good to see you. there is no doubt that hillary clinton has a long history of support among african-american voters and hispanic voters. just start by explaining why bernie sanders is the right candidate for african-americans. certainly, the needs of the community, and criminal justice reform is vital in the african-american community. his belief that we should increase the minimum wage to $15 an hour would automatically give african-americans arrays by about 15%, and his universal theation program would save

average african-american family about $36,000, so his unrelenting passion for the criminal justice system, and i heard him say that he would work to eradicate institutional racism. senator sanders does not say one thing in front of one audience and another thing in front of another audience. he believes that we all have the responsibility to eradicate institutional racism. >> senators sanders is someone speaking very candidly about the state of the country. the economics and how the recovery is not working for everyone in america. marying and finding receptive audiences. with latinos, what they tell me what they like most about bernie is the fact that he is talking

about how going to college has become so difficult for so many out of and now possibly people's round, that they may not be able to. he is talking about how college need should be approached like going to high school and being able to graduate from high school with a high school .iploma that is what college is now requiring, just to be a productive person and someone who can pursue a career. he has also been understanding of the new reality and immigration policy. wow.nk people are saying, we did not know that anyone running for the presidency can talk honestly, candidly, and be able to say, "i'm going to be a different type of politician," and there are people who have not voted before who are saying, "wow, can someone like this who

can speak honestly the elected and i think that is what is driving interest into his campaign. mark: addressing two issues. one is income inequality, and the other is racial tension in this country. still, how will bernie sanders succeed after eight years of an african, democratic president? would he be better at those issues than barack obama? nina: all of that does not lay at the feet of barack obama. him being an african-american, people are laser focused on that, and this has been in the dna of this country. andrew member, it is not just a black or brown problem. problem.american senators sanders has been laying the groundwork in terms of these

issues. i was in iowa with him last year, and he held a criminal justice form, and it was myself, the senator, and some african-americans, but he was system isout how the unfair to african-americans and hispanics and why it is our collective responsibility to do something about it. senators sanders has that kind of courage to give that message. it is a strong foundation. but he cannot do it alone. he needs people in the faith-based community. he needs people in the business community. it is all of our costs to bear. chuy: someone who was friends with barack obama before he was in the senate, former state senator barack obama. i think the message that he brought forth eight years ago versus bernie sanders, his message is very different, and bernie is talking about

underlying problems in institutions that have come to , andol washington, d.c. impeded good legislation, good fromatives, good policies becoming reality, and that is why him following a message that he will not except money from the folks who have too much influence in washington is drawing new supporters. it is opening eyes. i think the message about aonomic justice and taking real multi pronged approach to be quality is what can be a real winner for him, and for democrats, winning a majority in both houses in congress. you, supporting senator sanders, given that you have been supporting hillary clinton and moving in similar circles, and i know that bernie issues,speaks to your

but is he appreciably better than hillary clinton? is this the reason why you had to kind of turn away from her? he has lived his life as long as he has been in the elected ministry, and he and i are cut from that same cloth with that fiery passion. not ashamed to talk about those issues, so when i took a closer look at the senator, whom i was familiar with, i said this is my candidate. this is my guy. i am fully supporting mr. sanders. it is not that i am anti-hillary. ohis that i am just throw -- -- pro sanders. mark: thank you. up next, an inside look. iowa, ground game. remember, if you are watching --

in washington, d.c., you can now listen on the radio on fm. ♪

♪ moineseam sanders in des says his momentum is due in no small part to the team of volunteers in this state. a filmmaker who was out at the hawkeye state headquarters of the sanders campaign to look at the foot soldiers in his ground campaign. bernie sanders: three weeks from

now, in a very short. eyes of february 1, the the world, and the eyes of the country, will be on the state of iowa. we have gone from a situation where most people in iowa did not know who bernie sanders was, let alone what he stood for, to be in a position where i honestly believe we have a strong chance to win. we have a real chance to win here in iowa. >> probably close to 300 in my area. i bet it is tens of thousands. >> we have met over a million folks in this state already. 15,000 people have met somebody of some kind. >> all of these people, they are

not paid. paid to be here. >> in this office, you are seeing -- we have 26 around the state. would haveink kids moved here from all around the world. >> thanks so much. thanks so much for coming. >> for any other candidate. >> i think this guy could change the world. >> i am calling ones in my own precinct and some supporters, some who haveten gotten a lot of calls from a lot of campaigns and others who are not committed yet in the campaign. >> there are some people who say, oh, i would like to vote for bernie, but he will not make it read he does not have a chance. for all of the people who say he does not have a chance, bernie could win.

of you are going to join me? >> there is so much support out there. is like the obama campaign, especially in the last weeks. crowds, juste building. >> one thing we said from the very beginning that we had to do is that we have to expand the definition of a person who goes to a caucus. democratic, maybe a few republicans, and if we can keep expanding that, we can do very well on caucus night. >> i am never been to a caucus before. caucus-goers, some of them really are not clear as to what it is, how it works, understandably, or the time commitment. it is not walking into a precinct and casting a ballot

and leaving. they have to make a commitment of an hour or two hours there, and sometimes that is difficult to make the case to people that they need to devote that much time. >> educate them that it is not that difficult of a process. in fact, it is an easy process. for the caucus, put a burning button on and stand with the bernie sanders supporters, he gets counted, make sure the count is correct, and when they say the count is official, you can go home. >> in the last weeks, i think we spend time making sure the committed understand where their caucus is and what time they should be there. >> we will be out there knocking on doors, telling people to come out. we can wint is if here in iowa, if we can win in new hampshire, as i think we can, i think we have a path to a victory. it is intense.

i sense a passion with this campaign and a sense of devotion. you do not always see it. bernie sanders: time to pull off the biggest political upset in the modern history of america. john: i, of course, as you know, have acid flashbacks. this is not an acid flashback. watching that, it is 2008 all over again. when you see those supporters in the bernie sanders headquarters, it reminds me of -- mark: i thought you were going to say 2004 and howard dean. john: that would be an acid flashback. mark: some there from overseas. if the clinton campaign would

like to help us make that kind of video about them, you can see a very comparable array of people. john: not that has a ground game, has enthusiasm. that looks like obama to me. mark: one thing that makes it is the level of sophistication of the sanders volunteers. it is extraordinary. politics treat each one is like a mini karl rove. and i will say the same thing about the clinton folks. not have this among their volunteers or workers. john: we have watched sanders talk the last couple of days. you are right. pointed, sharp, sophisticated questions. they know politics really well. coming up, watching the ground war. no one has been watching more

closely than our next guest from iowa. she opens up her notebook and gives us a glimpse, after this. ♪

clinton: it is not an accident that two hedge fund billionaires are running against me. they are not running against bernie sanders. they know i will take them on and do what i set i will to rein in abuses on wall street and the financial markets and provide the kind of economic road plan i think will produce results were people. mark: that was hillary clinton speaking, and that was about 50

feet from where we are city. guest is a leading lady of the iowa press corps, and she joins us here. ok, happy new year. >> happy new year. : we have a two-person race, and i think most people agree, donald trump versus ted cruz and hillary clinton versus bernie sanders. be a do you think would bigger nailbiter, or do you think they both will be? bei think they both will nailbiter's, and i think after the championship game on the gridiron, they are going to engage. i went to a clinton call center last week, and i was struck by the fact that middle-aged white women were walking into start making calls. and walking into a small precinct, saying i need to volunteer for this person.

i want to see a female president. bernie sanders is really energizing people. barnstorminghim the state. on the republican side, still drawing huge crowds, and new polling shows he is pulling new people into the process, and ted cruz has kind of a remarkable trip across the street and was able to withstand some of the criticism in regards to his was able to, you know, counter what mr. trump was saying. john: so you think right now there are no paper tigers. o.kay: i think they know what to do. john: we can start asking this question in a meaningful way. it is early. is a little closer.

three weeks out, we can say somebody has got some momentum. somebody is starting to put a button on this whole thing. yes, if you look back to 2007, this is the time when obama had his sort of oprah moment, a time when things are starting to coalesce for both, clinton and sanders, in completely different ways. the female vote, as i just mentioned, and for sanders, people are not falling out of love for him and his message. he is keeping them in the full. turn out new voters, and he has to energize, and he has done that by talking to them directly. john: i think we can agree on the following things. ground game. hillary has a ground game. game.as a ground

does donald trump have a ground game? o. kay: going into those meetings, not meetings but rallies in clearlake, and they were finding out where their polling place is, where their precinct is, rather, where they can go on caucus night. wehas the money to do stuff may not know about. you guys know brad anderson who ran the general election effort here for obama. are in theess you bunker, you really do not know what the other campaign is doing, and unless we are in the bunker, i do not think we can accurately age what each of these campaigns is doing. they are going to throw out numbers. numbers are meaningless right now. mark: 21 days. way is to get an endorsement. the register. is -- she would have

been set. that some of these campaigns, ted cruz in particular, and some of the who havement types suggested they would not endorse, if they feel they can help an establishment candidate, they might. what endorsements do you think might come through in the last 20 days? ay: i do not think some are going to endorse for reasons they have explained over and over. behink the endorsements to gotten on the republican side has already been gotten. and i think ted cruz with his endorsement has inoculated him from the things in the past week. immigration and ethanol. the congressional district that

produces more ethanol than any other place on the planet. mark: i call them the new three amigos. i think the ted cruz road show featuring vendor plats and king is something. bransted is seen as an establishment tight now. long candidate that he can benefit its chris christie. he is dynamite on the trail. his town halls are attracting a growing number of people in iowa. if he were to endorse, were to pick someone like chris christie, i think that could make a huge difference in the caucuses, that i asked him point to break -- point blank if there is a monolithic issue, and if you wants to use that musso, and no. you, and we will be

right back. ♪

live 24/7 on haveberg.com, and we will fred davis on the program. and we will have an interview with donald trump, and that is thursday night. thanks to our partners here at the des moines register, and until tomorrow, sayonara. ♪

emily: i am emily chang, and you west." hing "bloomberg

there was an attack today at a mall in baghdad, and the islamic state claimed responsibility, detonating a car bomb outside a mall and suicide vest inside the building. the attack happened in a predominantly shiite neighborhood. started the process of extraditing el chapo, but they say it could take up to a year for the drug lord arrives on u.s. soil. six monthske hismum, but it depends on attorneys. non penn is expressing regrets and tells the ap he has got nothing to hide. here in the u.s., the house is poised to offer legislation for north korea's latest nuclear test by expanding sanctions. they are looking to deny north korea money it says it needs for a program, and a maryland appes