>> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. is here.rem koolhaas he is one of the most influential architects who works today. he is an author, theorist, and a professor at harvard. some of his most notable projects include the cctv headquarters in beijing, and casa da musica in portugal. the two major buildings have been opened in the last year are the garage museum of contemporary art in moscow and the product in milan.

i am pleased to have them back at this table. whenssed out two years ago you were in venice. it continues to be a great life for you. rem: it is an amazing life because it enables me to be at where things are radically changing. there is a need to articulate a particular ambition. there is a need to intervene in a situation. it is really a great opportunity. charlie: what you do, you have to find the time we are in -- define the time we are in.

rem: my role is a reporter who is simply alert and describing changes. as you describe the change, you find the oportunities where to intervene. -- a momentorming in time when things are changing from one condition to another. charlie: you began life as a writer? rem: as a journalist. as an interviewer. charlie: at 71, you are going strong. rem: maybe i go strong, but i am part of a large organization. i think i could never do what i

do, we could never do what we do without our collaborators. the average age of the offices may be 32. maybe i am getting older. you have people who come to work with you and then go off to do great things on their own. enabled many people themselves from our environment. it is very important to have lived in the time of rem. you are a legend. dutch and that means i

-- theyable of dealing cannot handle praise. they cannot receive celebrity. you keep your base in rotterdam. it keeps your feet on the ground. rem: completely immune to who we are, completely indifferent to who we are. we are totally free. charlie: someone else said, you remain a first rate provocateur -- and you do. you have been that all your life. i do not know if it is an

issue of star sign. not provocation. intellectualdna, what theto formulate issues are. to name what the issues are. the particular ability to name provocationeate because it may not be that the world is ready to draw the same conclusions. charlie: you work more like a conceptual artist than an architect. is that right? rem: we operate in a wide range of things.

us, fewerld around and fewer professions regained their previous identity. many streams are getting blurred . i am benefiting from that blur. from the factg that people are willing, not only to consider a predefined profession or a predefined territory or role, but are willing to experiment and see how things can be combined or redefined or reinvented. charlie: that is what you have done all your life. how can i redefine the way we think of space? how can i redefine the way we think of old and new? between urban and rural? rem: i am lucky to live in this

time. the time itself is redefining all of those conditions. charlie: you have resisted the idea of a singular aesthetic. some would argue that is what frank has done. you may disagree with that. some would say that. you resist that. rem: we love camouflage. we are not always interested to assert our own identity in every condition. we think architecture is interesting combination of imposition and yielding. you yield to an environment. a set of needs

that exist. for this reason, there is maybe a subtlety that means we need to be different in every case because every case is different. charlie: if i went to beijing with a group of architects, architects know the history of architecture and the identification of artists, and i showed them cctv, would they say, i know that is rem koolhaas ? before everybody knew it was such a popular building. rem: you would have to try. charlie: what do you think? is there something in that building other than the fact that is so different, would define it? rem: it was a huge challenge. therefore, i tried to accept every part of the challenge.

therefore, it is the kind of building that has not only one dimension, it is also an organization, a feat of identityng, also and -- and identity that is not stable, also looks completely different from every side. , and perhapsentity people would recognize that complex city as a characteristic -- complexity as a characteristic. charlie: how did you win that commission? rem: it was very interesting. un by apetition was r very young chinese lady who studied international law in oxford, 35 years old. invite five foreigners

and five chinese people. we wanted to be a completely honest process. there was aher, real intelligence there. there was a jury. the jury selected us. the issue became how to convince the government and the different parties in government that this was the right step. this was also orchestrated by her in terms of meetings with chinese politicians. i stayed for a long time in beijing. slowly, but surely, we were able to convince people. charlie: what is interesting is

said, wexi jinping have too many weird buildings. rem: it is very weird that politicians talk about architecture. i found it encouraging. we became associated with weird buildings syndrome. building is a serious building and i can say cctv wasence that visited by one of the chinese ministers who came to the conclusion that it was a sincere and serious contribution to china. the weird stigma has been taken

away. that is a good thing, i think. charlie: you and i talked about this right before we turned the cameras on, you won the competition. five other people lost. asy invested as much time you did. they care deeply. they pushed and shoved and imagined and reimagined. rem: some of them were my friends, are my friends. charlie: my dream is to put together, have an exhibition from the best architects in the world, all the projects that did not get selected. it is not a perfect process. it has to do with a range of human emotions and experience politics, alland

of that. when the be great to see -- wouldn't it be great to see all of the buildings? rem: it is interesting to compete. argumenta compelling that by competing, you get the best. some of our most imaginative buildings were not able to convince people at the right moment. did 10 years ago might be accepted today. there is an inherent sadness and the whole thing. by being a writer, i was able to conveythat sadness and the contents or the meaning of certain things.

it is very important as an architect, building something is so rare, you develop forms of can indication or forms of to make sure things don't simply disappear. charlie: are you happiest writing or building? designing? teaching? rem: two completely different forms of happiness. happinessst case, over teamwork and collaboration. i have had the most stimulating an amazing -- i never would have had on my own. constructionh the

of collaboration, you are pushed in different directions. it is a wonderful feeling. it is wonderful to be a monk in a cell and to have a feeling you are capturing a new reality or insight in the world of ideas. the world of observation. are you more of an observational character or innovative character? be both and i think it is necessary to be both. i am in a little person. what triggersen

invention. it is the basis for new thinking. charlie: here are some things you have said. you admitted you are somewhere between board and irritated -- bored and he rotated by the current course of architecture. rem: maybe i will take the last thing back. irritated, but not necessarily bored. is said architecture today forcing people to be extravagant even if they do not want to or need to. in the 1960's and part of the 1970's, we were connected to

complacent or convinced we were serving the general cause. escalation ofmous the economy, we are working more and more with private individuals. charlie: and we have more and more people with a lot of money. we are not playing the same role. role, we sometimes ite to build items because is important to a particular brand or we have to build a because it is a source of pride. the ambitions have radically changed. ♪

charlie: you also embrace the idea of preservation. a neww helping to find relationship with architecture. it is almost like -- such

an expectation that we do extravagant things. discover a more modest terrain where we can intervene fewif we add something, a new things. interesting. if you work on preservation, you discover in terms of dimensions , in therms of scale past, things were possible that are no longer possible. theinstance, in the case of foundation, it became a key part of the project.

nevercratch, we could have done. the generosity, we were able to capture. we will talk about both of those museums later. were you surprised as you delve into it? soviet architecture? rem: i came to moscow for the first time in 1967. i was unaware of the architecture. radical aware of the perception of architecture.

life.nvented daily from the beginning, i was less interested in form, but in the role in architecture in helping to define daily life. at the time, i was a scriptwriter. ofhitecture is also a form script writing. this is a living room and here is the staircase and there is the kitchen. implicitly, you describe it as pristine. that made it a very easy switch. charlie: preservation and modernist architecture. rem: the interesting thing about preservation, we previously the world was divided

into architects who make and preservation sabotages the architect. when i looked into preservation, it was part of the whole process of modernization. it was invented after the french revolution. it makes perfect sense. you have to decide what to keep. preservation is a form of selection. you have to understand it as part of modernization. when we discovered that, it became very creative territory. charlie: what does conventional beauty mean to you? rem: very difficult to really

talk about conventional beauty. what we prefer or what we are discoverortable with, the beauty of organization or the beauty of an artificial landscape. those steps, there is an aesthetic. modern.hetic of the moments that we tried to be addressing the issue of beauty. tower in goldmall leaf, a form of recognition.

otherwise, for me, beauty is the combination of organization and innovation -- imagination and rational organization. charlie: do you have an ordered mind? ordered.n be very i can also be chaotic when i want to. musicians who will bel me in order for them to -- they have to understand the order of music in order to be creative about music. there has to be a discipline and a sense of order in the way things are in order to be able

to create something that is fresh. rem: gravity is very strong and cannot be reversed. everything we do, we do within that machine. -- in that regime. architects have to be disciplined, but also have to know the importance of escaping from the discipline. are you a filmmaker who says to me, i always see something else i could have done? moment you are building, the engagement is deep

and profound. when things are over and open, i can let it go and enjoy it as an outsider. charlie: without knowing what might have been. i am a realist, i am able to enjoy reality. cases,es, in the best our buildings become a reality. i am efficient when i have to be. inefficient -- be.lie: when you want to take a look at this. building --da show the prada building.

inside that compound, building two new things. one you cannot see. the second one, you can see it emerging, which is the tower. it introduces vertical spaces .n this horizontal entity in order to create excitement, beauty, and an exceptional moment, this small tower is in gold. gold is so reflective. permeates the entire space. if you are close to it, you look like a god.

you cannot really tell if you are in an old building or a new one. seamlessreated a situation. charlie: you wanted to make this a single entity. rem: a single complex. a sequence of spatial experiences. charlie: does this present new opportunities for displaying art? rem: i think it does. oris not betting on only one two special conditions. we were able to vary the situation.

one sequence of rooms deliberately starts with very small rooms and every next room is bigger. the sequence goes on for seven or eight rooms. although the nature of the sculpture looks completely different. charlie: look at this. tell me what i am seeing. is quite original. the opening exhibition was about sculpture. examples.re greek -- theyn sculptural art were able to assemble many of

the same kind of sculpture. qualities of originality with a generic approach. it is partilter -- of this relationship between old and new where you are never quite sure where you are. charlie: next slide. part of prada. they are not about only one thing, but they are about the diversity of things. , when it was over, ballet in the same space.

it was an extremely moving moment. it sort of became alive. charlie: we go to the garage in moscow. how did this come about? was this a competition? rem: this was not a competition. came to us and simply asked us to work with her on the replacement of the garage. architecture of the 1920's, and it had been abandoned. -- we came to the conclusion that we could convert

it into a museum space. charlie: this is near gorky park? rem: inside gorky park. it was being completely renovated. it is part of the modernization. charlie: you describe this as not restoring the building, but preserving its decay. why a building becomes in ruins is interesting. whether then making everything -- charlie: what is that? rem: it is a form of plastic that has a beautiful effect. it is reflective and it is also translucent. it is a great abstract version of what you see outside.

if you are inside, you are aware that you are in the park, but you do not see the detail of the park so you can focus what is on the inside. charlie: next slide. look at this. rem: this is what i meant with preserving decay. mural.as a soviet it conveyed a happy since of communal -- sense of communal life. it was not entirely intact anymore. rather than restore it in its we wanted all to see what the building had gone through. charlie: this is the place that

inspired you to be an architect. rem: moscow. i feel really privileged to be able to witness over such a long time how it changes. charlie: how would you characterize it today in terms , in terms of its outlook? all, thet of educational system in russia has been an on a high level. educated, veryry intelligent, very inclined to mathematics. that gives you a wonderful level . charlie: different than china? longer -- is a much

russians read and they read the classics. the classics are very vivid. you a densityves and a depth. the younger generation is extremely imaginative and creative. in an interesting way, taking an existing structure and putting a new coat on it, having something to work with alleviates the pressure to be so totally spectacularly new.

rem: it is a wonderful discovery that we make by embracing preservation. focus onllows you to what is potentially needs to be changed. ♪

charlie: decision-makers in

places like china can to be young -- tend to be young. true in russia, too? say.it is difficult to i think there is a young generation with an enormous appetite. charlie: and a lot of money, too. rem: the great thing about preservation, it enables us to move out of the association with luxury and extravagance. charlie: let's go quickly to the cctv. there it is. out, there you look it is. tell us what went into that

imagination that created the structure. really dictated it. i have worked for media companies before. studioscombination of -- most similar to universal city. when we worked for universal city, in a creative company, there is a tendency for each part to isolate itself from the other parts. to lookwanted to do is like an organization where each part and each member was confronted with all of the other

ones. that explains the loop and the continuity of the building. the byproduct of that is the building looks completely different from every angle. sometimes it looks like a circle. -- it was crucial to an identity which would change with your own movement through the city. charlie: where would you put this on the pantheon of things you have done? it is an amazing thing to be one of the authors. charlie: i was trying to push you into something beyond that.

that is as much as i'm going to get from you. slide.look at this technology has changed architecture. invaded ourit has privacy like we never would have imagined. you are not happy about that. rem: in venice, we chose as one of the major exhibitions, elements of architecture, people part, that we, in would look at such things as doors, floors, and windows. we looked at these elements in different cultures and also through time. we realized in many of these

elements, digital culture has infiltrated those elements. elements, many of the of architecture change their nature in a drastic way and were becoming interactive or closely monitoring users or inhabitants. charlie: you said this was a potentially sinister dimension. rem: yes. writer, you use rhetoric. it is a bit heavy to be confronted with your own rhetoric. .aybe lower the alert maybe it is not a red alert.

it is simply an observation that toilet, eachon a event on the toilet is recorded. charlie: features a urine sample catcher that can measure glucose levels, useful for diabetics, , data andvels communicates with the user's computer by wi-fi compiling a health report. i am ok with that. rem: you are ok with that? with the frequency that toilets imply. 24 hours a day? i understand all of the

dimensions of people's medical information ought to be private. other people should not have access to it because it violates the rights of privacy. i also believe we have sensors and devices that can alert us to our health, really significant, and we would be much healthier if we had a greater sense of how our body was functioning. sense, i am in a difficult position. it is not that we want to warn against these technologies. we want to alert the world that together, all of them and overdose or an element of like sitting it is in a car and if you want to

drive without a safety belt, the car sabotages the intention. in that sense, yes, it is a smart thing. yes, it is a good thing. you are warned against a potential danger. in a digital world, it is also nothing is sacred. rem: nothing is sacred. we need to be aware of what we are giving away. reason for this rhetoric. charlie: this is one more case where you are being a provocateur. rem: or a reporter. by thisally fascinated world. i'm trying desperately to work with than that world and for the world to see whether there are

other dimensions of using it that are providing a more urgent or more comprehensive condition. this is a picture of the countryside 100 years ago. orderedtructured and society where the norms are shared and live in an environment they have always known. charlie: the point is what? and theility rules degree of community that is seemingly immutable. in the same place, switzerland, jeans. three ladies in they are a cheap labor force that maintain the second homes of affluent people in

switzerland. , andhat changes that is what we have been exploring. architecturestream ignored the trends affecting the less populated areas. rem: we looked at the nature of the city, but we never looked at the territory of abandoned by everybody moving to the city. we never discovered the countryside is also changing, maybe changing more radically. the countryside is really changing. what is fascinating me now is

for digital culture, certain implements and processes and .ccommodation is needed charlie: next slide. become the most digitized activity. you abouthey can tell all kinds of things like climate. it can enable a farmer to have a position which was never possible. the computer screen has become the field itself. charlie: it is also becoming a for peopler change in africa.

rem: absolutely. charlie: they could do things they could not do before. sense, thet -- in africa, it is a positive and welcomed transformation. we are exploring. reno, a dataar farm. the complex of data farms. it suggests urban condition. if you look at each of these entities, he realize -- you serving the are digital culture. enormoussee is an

complexes with barely a population. charlie: and urbanization without people. that is incredibly exciting territory. there are no people. -- forire environment people, we make careful spaces. look.e: take a documentary made by your son.

this is a documentary that will come out -- when will this be finished? rem: this year. the point of the film is not to look at me or talk about me. it is to convey the experience of the buildings. charlie: roll tape. here is a portion of this. ♪ crucial. it was ♪ always challenged by problems. that is a very abstract term. better to saymuch

we are challenged by people's .eeds ♪ charlie: react to what you just said. rem: to this? this is a sliver of it. we come away with a sense of a architecture. rem: i hope you come away with a , but notengagement with power. not with spectacle.

an engagement to really address ways in an old-fashioned and to address the interest of people who are inhabiting these things. -- itll maybe come away is not huge egos that define sometimesre, efficient, sometimes exciting, and sometimes deep way of engaging with the world. charlie: thank you for coming. hour.olhaas for the thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

tok: with all due respect donald trump, nobody knows new york values like we do. ♪ mark: tgif. we have had divine and tavis smiley on the program tonight. first, let's debate the debate in the most reductive and binary way possible. last night or publicans and losers, who is up and who is down and who is hot and who is not. first, let's quickly replay that trump-cruise fireworks over the two key issues to voters everywhere. oh, canada, and new york values. >>