♪ from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." super bowl 50 will kick off on sunday, february 7 at me by stadium in santa clara, california. carolina panthers will face off against afc's denver broncos. the game features the nfl's best defense in denver against the league's likely m.v.p., cornerback cam newton. after an injury plagued season, the broncos cornerback peyton manning pursues his second super bowl title. there is speculation that this could be the final game and peyton manning storied career. the coach of the pittsburgh

steelers for 15 years. he went to afc championship's and a super bowl title in 2006. he is currently a studio analyst for the nfl today on cbs. i'm enormously pleased to have you back at this table. welcome. >> good to be here, charlie. charlie: is it as simple as i just suggested? the best defense against the m.v.p.? >> it comes down to that. it is ironic, we sat there and the commissioner and watch the super bowl a few years ago. we watch the denver broncos. at the time, they were the number one offense in the national football league. so here they are, two years later, a total transformation of their football team and coming back and now coming into a super bowl with the number one defense. i give a lot of credit to john away for -- john elway for them is that he made from then until now. charlie: he understood that he needed a great defense.

his whole world was offense. >> he went temperatures late in his career. he did with a running game and he did it with defense. when you look in the last two years, and this offense of state of mind that we have in the national football league, think about the teams that are in the super bowl this time. seattle seahawks, daily defense last two years. this year, even carolina, they now lead the league in takeaways on the defensive side of the ball. and again, with the denver broncos. really, two years ago when they lost that game, that we sat and watched, they got manhandled by the seattle seahawks in that game. they went out and got to keep --. he got tj ward. he went out and got demarcus ware. he said, if i'm going to win this, and this window of time that i have with peyton manning, i need to transform this team from an offense of team to a better and tougher team on defense. charlie: interestingly, peyton manning whenever you talk to him, the first thing that he

says is, this is about our defense. i understand the most able thing here is the defense. >> it is interesting to watch, when you look at him and talk about the circle of life. peyton manning comes into the season and the national football league with the indianapolis colts, what are they doing? they are running the football and doing both legs. they are doing play action. he is under center and playing -- bending over. he morphed into the sky who became this shotgun quarterback with all the gyrations back there, everything else, reading defenses. now he is back into under the center again, running an offense that he did 60 years ago. it is just interesting to watch, he is certain that the player he once was, but he is still so cerebral. he is able to get them in the right place, and that is why they are were they are. charlie: so he can have an impact? >> he will have an impact of the denver broncos want to win this game. charlie: he has to safely connect with his receivers?

>> i think he needs to. need to be patient with the running game. their running game is still not one of the best renting games and the national football league, but they have to in the ball to keep the defense honest. it sets of the play action. it joins the game. i thought last week against the near patriots, by not going into a huddle, they shorten the game for the denver broncos. i think they really help them, anyway. i think running the ball shortens the game and that is where they want to play. they want to keep their defense fresh. he is still going to have to take some shots down the field and complete some balls. charlie: what was it that denver did to brady? >> mixed it up. they really confused him. you saw early in that game when wade phillips did. he rushed three people. he would rush five people. he played zone early in that game. so you saw tom brady the first time has attend. he was not decisive. charlie: because his receivers were covered? peyton tom brady and

manning read safeties and defenses. with every defense, you know where to go with the ball. if all of a sudden they show you one thing, and then on the snap it becomes something else, it puts an decision in your mind, no matter how long you played this game. i think we saw that last week with wade phillips jury at kind of play that game and kind of one it. charlie: a psychological game? >> i have always said it is the ultimate chess match in my mind. it is move against common move. i think the game within the game in the super bowl, wade phillips versus mike shula was done an amazing job utilizing cam newton who is this dynamic runner. wade phillips creating the defense. and mike shula on the offense. that is great. to send a great coaches. >> it really is. those two, have always been a head coach, the number one thing you can do is that the coordinators.

particularly on the opposite side of the ball where you are the expert. i had can in 2005. we won the super bowl and he became head coach. what you have is ron rivera on defense. mike shula on offense. gary kubiak running the offense. wade phillips running the defense. charlie: when the quarterback comes to -- comes out of the huddle, and either sets up on the center or back in the shotgun, he pretty much knows where he is going. theretty much knows patterns that they are going to run. he knows where they are supposed to be. >> he has a play that he has called. sometimes he may have to place. he may come up to the line of scrimmage and if he sees a certain defense and most of the time when you watch it, you want to watch the safety. the safeties will tell you a lot. is it too deep? if it is single, if there's only one safety, and means i have one on one on the outside.

if it is to people the, all of a sudden you might want to try and run the football, sort of the things you want to do on the defensive side of the ball is disguised your coverage. that is the thing that denver did a great job of. against brady. if you let peyton manning, he will not that the ball until he knows that you are in. he will go out there as if he is going to snap it, and get you to show what you are doing, and if he sees what you are doing, he will get them in the perfect play for that and know exactly where to go with the ball. that is the cerebral part that makes us special at this point of his career. charlie: you had one question that you wanted to ask them, going into the game between the broncos and the patriots -- bill: i talked to several people. we did a sit down. brady, theyt tom were underdogs going into the game playing at home. i said to them, if we do this,

blank, we will in the game. i wanted them to fill in the blank. if we do -- i don't want to hear score points of the other team. and miller says, if i get two sacks, we will in the game. i said, two sacks? and he said, well i will get to. derek will get to and a markets will get to. they got for sacks in the game and he had 2.5 and they did win the game. charlie: what that means to me, if we can set tom brady that much, that means that we have figured out a way to get to him. bill: exactly. and they did that in multiple ways. they did it with a three-man rush and a five-man rush and a four-man rush. they did it with some confusion that they created. and they did it because they have some very, very good pass rushers. charlie: i think the hardest position, when i look at the ball, i think the hardest position in the world to meet to imagine plane is the defensive back. bill: yes. charlie: you have a guy coming

at you, trying to fake you. he knows where you are going and you do not. you are trying to keep up with him and find out where the ball is, too. and get between him and the ball. it -- bill: it is to a degree. rushersou have good upfront, and the quarterback will not hold the ball long, and makes the job a lot easier. i think the hardest job to be honest with you is quarterback. you to process so much information in a short timeframe. and your decision-making becomes almost the telltale sign of the result of the game. charlie: and cam newton does that while? bill: he does that very well. the uses goes for a well. mike shula has done a great job of deception, but they run the basic place but they show different ways of getting there. they will run plays with him. they will do a reduction with jonathan stewart. they will incorporate a passing game that incorporates greg olson on the outside. they do a lot of things that utilize in his skills.

that is the challenge a defense has. charlie: in your mind, you believe that peyton manning things, this is it for me? this is my time. bill: i do. charlie: i have to come in with the right frame of mind and the right attitude and the right sense of it all coming together and do what i can do for this team to give it the necessity -- the necessary element to take it. bill: i think it is so ironic. when you and i sat down and watched that game two years ago. he led the league. her offense was number one in the national football league. charlie: and they shut him down. bill: they just shut them down. i go back to the moves that john elway made. he needed a better defense. kim's back, two years later with a hall of fame quarterback any great defense. let's see if it works. charlie: what was it about the game that you love the most? bill: the strategical part of it. charlie: what we talked about. it's like being a general. bill: it is doing what they do

not expect you to do. coming up with the unexpected. not to get away from what you do best, but to do it in a manner with you create some indecision. you have to create a surprise or a spark. yet to do something special. running someght kind of gimmick. charlie: run a kick when they were not expecting it? bill: we did that in super bowl 30. we had the halfback pass. across the 50 that one super bowl 40. i watch some of the things that my shula is doing, innovative-wise, the reverse last week. these are the things, to me, that if players get excited about, and i think, again, you do not to get away from what you do best, but you also want to do something that is special. something that is unique, that is different. something that can potentially give you a big plane again because every game comes down to two or three plays that have

german dish impact on the outcome. so, -- charlie: part of that is timing, when it comes? bill: the timing of playcalling which goes back to the strategical part of it. everybody says, the players when the game, but it is calling the right play at the right time to get those players a chance to be successful. timing of playcalling, both sides of the ball, -- charlie: what played you call a one-time? bill: you call a reverse. when a second down and one. or second down and one and you have a play action pass and you go deep. you come into it with a blitz on third down and 10 when they think you're going to drop. or you drop a back in their when you showed a blitz. you are showing one thing and playing another. to be able to show the perception of something, and play something else, which can create a little bit of indecision and the thought -- thought processing of players, is what you can do and that is the advantage that you can give your players. charlie: can you say the broncos

or the panthers are the better team? not that they will win the super bowl, but going into it, pound for pound, skill for skill, -- bill: i would say the carolina panthers are that are team. charlie: because of the record and the balance? bill: i think on the offense aside, they are a football team with a good offense of line. they can run the football. the league m.v.p.. i think, clearly, you look at very hard is a offense to defend. when you look at it defensively, ok, denver is number one. but this team leads the league in takeaways on defense. they have the biggest differential between turnovers and takeaways and do not turn it over. i think on paper, without a doubt, it is carolina. i think on paper last week, it was the new england patriots, too. you just wonder about this little run right now that they are making with peyton manning.

can they go one more game? charlie: thank you. it was great to have you. i cannot wait. one of the great things i can say to you, is to watch the super bowl and next to the sky is like watching a general and being with him as he tries to figure out how the battle will go. as everybody says, the plan does not stop at the beginning of contact. back in a moment, stay with us. ♪

♪ health: the world officials are convening an emergency meeting on monday to combat what they call in their words, and explosive health threat. the mosquito borne zika virus is moving rapidly through the americas, while it symptoms can often be mistaken for the flu, it is widely suspected of causing birth to fax in some -- birth defects in some and in some cases of paralysis. estimates say as many as three people can be infected by next year and that it may reach the united states by the spring. theanthony fauci run for national institute of allergy and infectious diseases. i'm pleased to have him on this program. let's begin with the level of concern and the level of the threat and then talk about the response. dr. fauci: we are no doubt already seeing and will continue to see what we call "imported cases." it is correct that there is a very, very extensive outbreak of

zika virus in south america, particularly in the northeastern section of brazil, as well as in the caribbean. because people, travel to that region and come back to the united states and we have already seen about 50 cases that have come back into the continental united states or territorial united states. that is not surprising. we will see even more of that. the critical question is, will there be local transmission within the united states? by local transition what we mean is that if i'm in south america or the caribbean and i get been by mosquito and go back let's say to the southeastern part of the country, florida or texas or what have you, and a mosquito bites me and them by somebody else, and then you get a chain of transmission, that is called "local transmission" of the virus. that is the thing we are concerned about, but we feel, given the history of what we have seen with other, similar viruses like chikungunya, that

although it is likely that we will see these many, little outbreaks, we feel that it is unlikely, and i'm possible, but unlikely that we will see an extensive, explosive outbreak in the united states the way we are seeing it in south america. again, you do not want to be cavalier about it. it is not a guarantee, but history with these types of virus tells us it is unlikely that we will see an explosive outbreak. charlie: the director general of the world health organization said the level of concern is high as is the level of uncertainty. questions abound. we need to get some answers quickly. what are the questions and what are the answers that we need to know? dr. fauci: the first question that is really a very important question is, what is the nature of this relationship between infection of pregnant women and the birth to fax that are -- birth to fax that are currently cts?irth defe

there is cause and effect there, that is one of the big unknowns. is it zika virus alone that is doing a? is it something else that is doing it along with seek a virus being there and it has nothing to do with the zika virus or is it the virus's energizing with something else that is causing a? that is the big unknown. if you put aside the situation and the problem and the issue with pregnancy, zika virus itself is a relatively inconsequential virus. it gives a self-limiting disease, lasting usually 3-7 days. fever, joint aches, rash, and some pink eye, and then it goes away. after a few days. it is not like one of those very serious diseases for the entire population. but when you are dealing with a pregnant woman, that is where the real concern is. that is also where the big unknown is. charlie: how fast can you answer that? dr. fauci: we want to do and the

cdc is doing it, we are doing it also in collaboration with the brazilian, particularly, because they have the greatest burden of disease what is called national history and case-control studies to try and see if you can match the infection with the events, with the fetus, mainly the congenital abnormality and find out if the association is real in the sense of cause and effect, versus just an association? there is a lot of activity going on now to try and figure that out. charlie: what is microcephaly? dr. fauci: microcephaly is a disease in a child, and a fetus, in which the head, the cranium, is small. if you see the pictures, they have a small head. the reason they have a small cranium is because the brain either is interrupted in its development, so it is a developmental animality, and-or, indirect toxic effect on brain tissue. we are not exactly sure, there

is probably a spectrum, charlie. if you get infected early, you have a developmental problem with the brain and later on, you might have a direct, toxic effect. the end result is that you have stillborn, you have babies who die soon after birth, or if they survive, they often have very serious abnormalities related to the neurological system. charlie: it is likely caused by zika virus? dr. fauci: the association is there. that is the point we want to make. that is why we are not saying definitively that zika virus is causing it, because it is associated with, but the cause and effect relationship has not been established. charlie: with all of this care and concern and risk of someone,, what does who is pregnant, or someone who is concerned, do? dr. fauci: that is very clear,

with regard to pregnant women. because of the fact that there are unknowns, and there is a very strong association with developmental defects of the brain in fetuses of women who are infected during pregnancy, the recommendation for our cdc in their guidelines is that if you are a pregnant woman, or are thinking of getting pregnant and are not sure if you are pregnant, that you should seriously consider putting off travel if you intend to travel to the involved regions in south america and in the caribbean. the recommendation is to hold off on travel and not put yourself at risk until this is straightened out. charlie: tell me if i'm wrong, there is no quick diagnostic test to ascertain if you have contacted it or not? dr. fauci: it is tricky with the tests, charlie. if you are infected in that brief window, when you have the virus in you, and unlike something like hiv where the virus stays around forever, the virus is there just for a few days to a week.

there is a test, a molecular test, that could easily tell you within that small window if you are infected. that is a widely available test. the test that is the tricky one, is that if the woman or i get affected -- infected now and in a couple of weeks, if i want to find out if i was infected, the test for the antibody to determine if you are infected is one that is not widely available . only a few specialized labs can do it. point number one, and point number two, it across reacts with other viruses in the environment. so, if i were in, let's say brazil, and i had been exposed very likely to dinghy, i would have dainty antibodies and me. and defense trying to find out if i was exposed to zika virus, these particular antibodies would cross-react and i would not be able to tell definitively is it zika virus, or is it the other? so you do, yet again, another

specialized test. diagnoses after you have been infected is somewhat problematic. charlie: what is the possibility of a vaccine? dr. fauci: i think the possibility is quite good, charlie. i will to you i think that. because we have had experience with successfully developing vaccines against other viruses of this class. the class is called --. -- seekever, zika what a virus, was now, those are flaky viruses. we have successful vaccines against yellow fever. we exited to develop a vaccine against west nile in a phase one study. we do not bring it to fruition of an advanced, development because pharmaceutical companies were not interested. but we are going to do, in fact, we have already started it, a couple of weeks ago, is to use the same technology that we developed for west nile virus and apply it to zika virus. and although vaccines would

likely take before they are approved in the regular trade process, a few years to be available, we believe that we can go into a phase one early trial to determine safety and whether it induces an appropriate and in response within the calendar year of 2016. it will take several years to develop, but we are getting right on the early stages. charlie: you have called mosquitoes the most murderous animal on earth. dr. fauci: and i'm convinced that that is the case. if you look at all the diseases and devastation caused by mosquitoes throughout the world, be a malaria, be at the diseases that we are talking about right one of thecertainly most instructive creatures on earth. charlie: my cohost on cbs this morning gal king asked me the most interesting question. do mosquitoes have any redeeming value? dr. fauci: and the answer i told her is no, they don't. if we could get rid of

mosquitoes it would really be wonderful. charlie: what is the best and most likely way to get rid of them? dr. fauci: that is very difficult because you have to have the invalid until -- environmental balance. we have used insecticides, but there is the problem that some of those insecticides have some consequences, environmentally, c one to balance that with trying to get rid of the mosquitoes, so what we are doing right now, a number of agencies are doing that, is to try and develop a compound that would either destroy the larva or the until mosquitoes, but do it in a way that is environmentally acceptable, both for the true environments, as well as the people. so there is no toxic effect. charlie: dr. anthony fauci, thank you as always. dr. fauci: good to be with you. charlie: so helpful as always. we will be right back. stay with us. ♪

♪ is the: "fighting isis" new special report from buys on hbo. it takes years to the frontlines against isis. iraqi forces retake the city of ramadi in december. questions continue to surround the larger campaign. here is a look at "fighting isis". [clip]

♪ if you captured me or either of my friends, what would you do? >> [indiscernible] >> iraq is rapidly becoming a failed state. >> it is the worst american foreign-policy catastrophe ever. >> with ice is now controlling a third of the country, ben anderson embeds with the most heavily armed groups. >> every male who can fight is volunteering to vice. >> on the three main frontlines on the fight against the islamic state. refugees are fleeing isis and now living in these abandoned buildings. this is a russian airbase, one of many signs of the escalated global conflict. >> [indiscernible] charlie: joining me now is the

reports correspondent ben anderson. are,t's cinematography jackson. i'm pleased to have them both at this table, welcome. this is extraordinary, for anybody who cares who who follows the stories to see it visualized like this and congratulations. tell me what you are try to accomplish here? ben: a lot of people are talking about what is happening in iraq. not a lot of people going to -- we can actually spend enough time on the ground to film real-life happening. charlie: used to do this alone? ben: yes. charlie: taking your own pictures? ben: yes. charlie: you and jackson of work together before? ben: i used to do things completely alone. vice one ami to be a correspondent and find somebody who can come with me and some with me. when you go alone, you only think about your own safety. you have always thought about what happened to you. yourselfilling to put

-- taking sevenare yes, i have met his wife and parents, their whole other calculations. charlie: people probably noticed that jackson's father was when my bosses at pbs. tell me how you to work together? jackson: there was a lot of pressure on me because then goes to these places alum. right after that, i thought he could do this by himself. i have to make is really good. charlie: you have to add value. jackson: i handle the camera and a sound work and try to make it as easy as possible for him. charlie: do you come out when something is really great? ben: the most important thing is, we got it. charlie: i hate that question. especially when i did not get it. jackson: i did my job, did you do you are? [laughter] ben: i can't overstate the importance of when things are happening. it is chaotic when you know there's somebody to you covering

everything is full of covering the picture. that is vital. charlie: are you looking for somebody was the same kind of dna as you do about the story? ben: yes. this was a new experience. he was also asked me questions -- i member on the eve of when we were with the -- as they were about to take to create. he stood ask me questions about the possibility of dying at moments like this. we had conversations like that. that was at the forefront. charlie: what was your thought when you saw the isis fighter? ben: i laughed slightly because that was a throwaway question at the end of the interview. but he said it without her conviction. i said, i will not shake cans of these guys at the end of this interview. he got up and shook my head -- shook my hand and said he would have liked more time to speak. i have no doubt that he would've killed me. charlie: nouri surprised by the answer? slightly,rprised me and for him it was 100% ideology.

the first to confirm for everybody also said to us, which was light under maliki was so horrible. even christians said to us, that when isis came along, we welcome them because we thought they might offers protection a chance for revenge. you had a surge during the bush administration which was successful. david trias was involved in that and you had the awakening and you have a combination of more american and you had this sort of last effort by the bush demonstration which was successful. they convinced the sunni tribes to support them in the battle against al qaeda. you had an iraqi government that was a shia government. then you have maliki become prime minister. what happened with the maliki government that is so infuriating for the sunni tribesmen that they were willing to deal with isis them with the maliki government? ben: they got nothing from

baghdad after being essentially in the fight against al qaeda. not only did they get nothing, they got persecuted. about regular us rates, if something happens, the young men would be rounded up and sometimes tortured by the baghdad government. so, they were wide-open choices. isis had a rapid and easy spreading it would not been possible without such a huge chunk of the population being so disenfranchised. charlie: what was it about isis? they had to see the threat of isis? ben: the christian refugees that ed said they were great to begin with. within three weeks or four weeks, their true colors started to show. people started to disappear. young girl started to be abducted. that is on people started to flee. charlie: what surprised you about this? in iraq? jackson: we had been in

afghanistan in the fall before. that was a nice bit of preparation and we were there for a month. i would say, with all of these stories, what surprises me is there is just a lot of downtime. there's lot of time are you are waiting, anticipating what is going to come and what is coming is the most intense couple of hours in your life and for me, it is like i'm just sitting around and over and over again thing, man, what is this going to be like? you're kind of excited that it is not happening and when it does -- i would just look to been a lot -- ben a lot. charlie: what is the status today? what is the status today on the ground iraq? ben: you have the kurds who have had success against isis but who are fighting for their own independent state. you have the iraqi government controlled areas which are action controlled largely by the shiite militias who are created and sometimes commanded by iran. and then you have --

charlie: so the money -- so them on -- ben: waiting for this operation in tikrit to begin. i saw him and the other in front of me. charlie: does he have white hair? and appeared? ben: yes. i suddenly thought, he will not be happy to see foreign reporters. i kind of hit my face. he did not see me. then he heard that we were there. i think he said, get out of here. you got out of there. ben: we spent a week waiting. charlie: we can talk about the sunni and the iraqi shia militias. aqis ory a rockies -- ir iranians? ben: they are a rockies.

charlie: in terms of iraq and the ayatollahs of iraq. at all withdinate the regular iranian army? ben: no. there commanded by senior iranian generals. when that tikrit operation was harder than they expected -- they actually pulled back and there were u.s. airstrikes and they were very angry. charlie: without the u.s. airstrikes, they may not have been able to do it. ben: they were still very angry that the u.s. was involved. all of the shiite militias said that if the u.s. returns to iraq, we will fight them. no coronation, they are openly hostile. charlie: no coronation to the iraqi government? government is giving them all of the staff which we give to them. we, indirectly, are supporting an army who are often guilty of the same crimes as isis. charlie: we've been talking

about sunni fighters. this is ben with sunni fighters. [clip] >> do think you can hold onto him? >> [indiscernible] >> they're saying they're going to now use the tanks. charlie: what is the closest

call that you had their? ben: there were snipers and there's trees that were firing fairly accurately. it looked bad, i was not action to concern that day. it looks and sounds very bad. clip, yesee from that they need a and ammunition, but they needed training. their guys firing with rifles. jackson: there were like 50 of them and they were all firing their weapons at the same time. i was just thinking, they are giving way our cover and are spots. they going to come in and kill all of us. half of them were firing into the sky. charlie: what is the level of the arms that have been received from the united states? ben: the embarq tried. very little. it is their main complaint. what they have not, they stole it from the iraqi government. charlie: we found that when he went into ramadi, for example. they were using weapons that had been from the iraqi war. ben: or russian weapons. charlie: we had an interview in

this film with the former president and prime minister. because you went to or your crew went to the russian naval base in syria. what did you learn from that? ben: it was interesting because there was a jet taking off every five minutes from the russian airbase in syria. fully armed with heavy bombs, coming back empty, every single time. their bombing campaign is like their bombing campaign in russia. .hey have killed thousands they are bond to medical facilities. charlie: these are russian fighters? ben: yes. their interest is popping up assad. charlie: which they respond to, saying yes, that is true. ben: they would rather kill the chechens there then have them come home. charlie: how is a rock different than afghanistan? jackson: more action iraq. everywhere we went. there was fighting.

afghanistan, it is really mostly in the south. charlie: what is the response to the coverage? are you finding that they respect having american reporters there? ben: people on the ground? charlie: do they want to show you that they are not getting weapons and that people think they have weapons at go -- weapons? all along, they have said, we have not been getting weapons. american officials say, yes that was true, but it has changed now. some people there will say it is gone better. ben: they're are getting more airstrikes, which they are grateful for. the charts are very open to having us there and were very accommodating. the shiite militias were very wary. there were local journalists with us at the base waiting to cover tikrit but we were kicked out before action started. charlie: what is amazing, is the radiance and a rockies thought such a -- the iranians and

iraqis thought such a long war against each other. saddam was the dictator in iraq. of thecause of that, all shiite opposition groups in iraq have such good relations with iran. many of them were in exile in iran. not seeing that iran would have such an influence on post-saddam iraq was one of the biggest mistakes of the war. someone did that -- see that coming and have a lot of progress in negotiating and having iran as an ally -- or just cooperating in a post-saddam iraq. charlie: what impressed you about this person? ben: you see a fighting sequence and you see that iraq is a mess. i think everybody now knows that it is a mess. i say, is it worse today than it was under saddam hussein? and ryan takes a breath and you think he is going to do a dick cheney undefended and argue and he completely opens up. it is one of the best interviews i've ever had the pleasure of doing.

he was one of the most honest, thoughtful -- charlie: an intelligent. ben: yes. you cannot tell by the end if you was a republican or democrat. charlie: did he not work well with david trias -- david petraeus? ben: yes. and the search was successful, although the conditions were still there. they had not been addressed. charlie: isis came out of al qaeda iraq. the leader of isis was formerly a deputy to al qaeda in iraq. ben: and eventually rejected for being too violent. charlie: we had him in prison. what do they say, the isis fighters, about all the gaudy -- al-baghadi? ben: they do not talk about indirectly, but they believe what he says. and they believe it will take over the world. charlie: the obama administration would like to say, look, we are shrinking the

amount of territory that they hold. in that territory that they hold is there -- a recruiting tool to say, come join this wonderful caliphate which comes right out of the cron. -- koran. ben: they are reducing territory, but the criminal numbers are still very good. charlie: what is the recruitment -- what is it that they use? ben: i find it difficult to understand, but for now, they're the cool, new kids on the block. charlie: a romantic adventure for them. a religious, romantic adventure. ben: if you are a psychopath who wants to be a bully and wants to be internationally famous. charlie: or if you are somebody who has no sense of community or connection with anything and then somebody comes along. if it is not gangs. certainlynk in iraq, most of them, the first two people we interviewed said that it was more a matter of survival that we join, rather than friday allergy. i think what frightens me is

when you have americans and europeans leading -- leading for the comfort will life thinking that this is what they should be doing. and that they will succeed, fairly soon. charlie: let me sure i understand. ron crocker said to you in this sum, a rock was better off under saddam? ben: yes. and then i said, is a rock today more likely a source to be of terror in the u.s.? now it is not a case of if, is a case of when, is what he said. he says isis has the capability that al qaeda, pre-9/11 could only dream of. thousands of fighters. western passports. charlie: so paris is just the beginning? ben: we did the interview before paris. he pretty much predicted paris. and you have the san bernardino attacks, as well. they were inspired without an operational link. charlie: where is the former leader of the -- organization? ben: he's in a rock.

q. ira charlie: does you play a significant role? ben: yes. he is side-by-side. charlie: here is a shia militia, one of the three groups that ben and jackson went to see. [clip] ♪ ben: we were able to meet up with one of the most notorious shiite militias. they were preparing to retake the city of tikrit from isis. ♪ these are all american supplies. either directly or indirectly. humvees. supplied just see u.s. weaponry, we also saw iranian weapons on display. it was clear where the fire tears loyalty lay. there, we met with the leader of the organization. i sizzle be defeated?

>> [indiscernible] charlie: there you go. tell us who he is. ben: he fought for iran through the iran-iraq war. reportedikileaks to -- saying that he and his organization like to torture and kill people with an electric drill. he is smiling and nodding and say, i cannot comments on that. tellhen said, many iraqis me that yes, that is what they used to do. charlie: where is his allegiance? ben: many people would say iran. are the peshmerga the most effective of fighting forces? ben: the most effective and most law-abiding. you can argue that the shia militias and the peshmerga are

equally effective. if you're looking for a good guy in the region, the peshmerga are the good guys. they treat the prisoners very well. that is the difference between the two. charlie: why did you this? [laughter] charlie: sometimes it -- jackson: sometimes i ask myself that all the time. you mentioned my dad before. when i was a little guy, he was a producer at the cbs london bureau. i would be put to sleep to stories about covering the gulf war and rhino hunting africa and rhino hunting africa must be shot down in a helicopter. charlie: it was a good life. jackson: for sure. they all have their own stories, as well. i wanted to do that. i do not need to get paid to do this. but i do ask myself that. maybe, why, some of these places. charlie: in what way is a different or is it always what you imagined what it would be? more intense than you imagined? jackson: i don't know.

i had no idea we would be traveling the way that we did. and getting five weeks tuesday in a country and tell a story properly. day, they had more money and time and they were going over the world and i thought that was over. charlie: now it is more immediate. you put this together. you are shooting the stories. stories that i'm familiar with, from doing the show. how long did it take you tissue? -- to shoot? ben: five weeks on the first trip and 10 days on the second trip. charlie: you come away at the end of it with what conclusion? that iraq will indian split up into three? ben: you can argue that already has. charlie: not a strong central government in baghdad. baghdad will simply be the head of the shia?

ben: which is going to be a big fight. i cannot imagine what would happen for there to be a central government in baghdad which would represent all iraqis at this point. it's interesting, you look at a lot of the world -- and you can trace them back to british europe. it makes no sense for some of these people to be put together in the same --. conclusion, we have achieved the exact opposite of what we promise to achieve. certainly not secure or democratic. and it is technically a threat to the united states now where is it was not before. charlie: back to the questions i asked at the beginning. what was it that you were in search of? what question was at the front of this beer for what you wanted to know? ben: i think three main points. how that is iraq today? charlie: the answer? ben: worse than i expect to. one part controlled by isis and

the kurds. by the shiptrolled militias. it's difficult to imagine how could be worse. the question, how can we get to this point? the third question, even if isis is defeated, what happens next? because what happens next could be just as bad. charlie: did this change, in terms of what you knew going in, and what you saw, and how you came out, just in terms of your role in this process, did a change what you assumed in any way? about iraq? was a much worse than you imagined? jackson: it was kind of sad. i think we all know people who have fought in iraq or afghanistan. it is such a mess there. it was like, what was this for? it is hard not to ask that when you are there. charlie: and paris after that. and after all of that money. ben: since i was last with you,

the two towns in afghanistan that we covered have fallen to the taliban. they are now in the taliban and pans. charlie: make the point. the point is that some of these fighters say, you accuse us of all of these things, but you are doing the kind of bombing that has no respect for women and children. that is their point and that is what they are taught to believe or what they believe. ben: it is difficult to argue with someone when there's collateral damage and civilian casualties. you don't say people are dead indiscriminately. ben: now it is common to hear that not only was that intentional, it is common to hear, in iraq, we were told many times that isis was greeted by the united states. people have even said, i've seen the u.s. dropping supplies to isis. charlie: why do they believe that? suchbecause i think it is a mess that incompetence is not a good enough reason. charlie: syria. is that next? ben: no. i think back to afghanistan

next. syria is a difficult now, you have to go in and out the same day. charlie: how do you go in? beirut? ben: or turkey. i've a friend who went there recently and going in and out with the same rebel group for two years, but the commander was a friend of his, took him in and showed him around and got some great pictures and on the way offered a large amount of money for him and the commander decided to go for it. they handcuffed him and put them in the back of a -- and he escaped by killing someone with a brick. or very badly beating somebody with a brick. charlie: they brought him in? ben: and then they, after a nasty fight, local rebels came to save them. but before they were free, the rebels try to sell them and shot them in the ankle. and that was some of you trusted and worked with for two years. the really disturbing thing for me, as he said, i can understand the logic. you guys come in, get all the stuff, broadcast it supposedly,

to the world, and nothing happens. it does not help us whatsoever. if i sell you for what hundred thousand dollars, i could buy weapons and you'd be helping. that was chilling. charlie: thank you jackson. thank you ben. the vice special report "fighting isis" airs on hbo this sunday, january 31 at 10:00 p.m. the fourth season of ice on hbo. thank you for joining us, cnx time. ♪ the only way to get better is to challenge yourself,

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mark: i am mark halperin. john: i am john heilemann. with all respect to caucus-goers him up away your phones, stop texting candidates, and experience the caucus, for god sakes. ♪ john: we are here again bloomberg politics mission control at downtown des moines marriott. roughly 72 hours before iowans kick off the 2016 election season. today, a dozen residential