john: i'm john heilemann. matt: and i'm mark halperin. 2 and with all due respect, this election is now hope and strange. a glory, glory hallelujah hello to all of i from south carolina. new poll flubs from the palmetto state survey for you tonight. fuffers -- but first, once again the news of the day has almost everyone saying oh, my goodness. many people scr tried unsuccessfully to stop donald

trump and today he decided -- one decided to risk his own political salary cap tal and say this. >> i'm not sure. >> i will leave that up to your judgment. and then, a person who only thinks about making walls again and again is -- and not about making bridges, is not a christian. matt: shart -- shortly after that shot, donald trump responded, expressing outrage over the pontive's remarks. >> for a religious leader to question a person's faith. no leader, especially a religious leader, should have a right to question another man's faith, especially when they feed all sorts of false

information into it. they are using the pope as a pawn and they should be ashamed of themselves -- that's the mexican government -- they should be ashamed of doing so especially when so many lives are involved and whether illegal immigration is santo -- so rampant and bad and dangerous for the united states. ok? period, that's it. matt: so, john, it's not all that common for a presidential candidate to take on any religious leader, let alen the pope -- john: oh, i my god, i just want to say, is this campaign weird or what? fear and loathing in vatican estimate although sk asking has a big religious population, they are eve an gelicals, 2k -- -- jimmy clausen,

everybody an gelicals, not necessarily catholics. it's not clear donald trump's statement will hurt him there. matt: i was in the room when trump did it. he read his statement and some said impromptu. look, trump's brand is based on strength. we say that all the time. the pope did lash out and challenge him. donald trump is famous for counterpunching. if he wins south carolina big, have taken he will on one of the most popular figures in the world and not only survived but thrived. it will help him in the south where the percentage of catholic voters is lower. john: in the words of our friend chris matthews, the pope plays hardball! to ood book, matthew vii,

be presise, famously add mondayishes the faithful, do not judge as you would not be judgeds. rebs that focus group of south carolina republicans we showed you last week? no? watch again. >> what do you think of the way he's talked about his religious beliefs -- beliefs? >> i'm not sure he's such a religious person personally. i'm sure he hays lot of respect for religious people. >> i think he's relatively honest but i don't believe him on his, what he says about his religion. >> raise your hand if you disagree with them and think that mr. trump is a religious person. anybody disagree? you all said you didn't think he was as religious as he says he is. raise your hand if you are troubled by that. >> i'm not troubled that he says -- that he's not

religious. i'm troubled that he says he is religious. >> and we asked some people who attended that rally who think sided with. guess who they picked? >> who do you side with in this? the pope or donald trump? >> donald trump. he shouldn't be saying you're not christian. >> he has no right to question mr. trump's faith. >> i think the pope has gotten a lot of wrong information. >> who do you side in with this one? >> definitely donald trump. >> the pope. >> the pope. >> trump. >> trump. john: so the people at the trump rally, mark, apparently siding with mr. trump. the larger question is how likely is there to be a backlash against -- against what trump has done today and if there is, how big will it be? matt: i was sitting in the rally.

in a normal candidates in any state there be a little bit of ohing and o -- ahing and people holding their breath. there was none of that. i aren't seen every tweet since this happened but people now get fact 2345 -- that trump takes risks and goes where most people wouldn't dare to go. i don't anticipate a backlash, not just in the south new by -- anywhere. matt: i totally agree with you. john: we have talked in the past about the fact that there have been in catholic candidates, rick santd orum, who would um, say, have been in a much tougher bind, but even the people in our focus group who expressed some doubt will -- about whether trump is really a man

of faith, and i'm with you in predicting very little backlash whatsoever in a contest. maybe the general election would be different. pedro: you might think that the other republican candidates would see this battle royale between trump and pope and see a chance to make at least a dent in the teflon don. but reaction says mr. trump might be preaching to the choir. jeb bush said building a wall on the mexican border was, unchristian the ben carson declined to question his rival's faith and ted cruz simply said, "i'm not going to get in the middle of that." so john, what should the vast north american viewing audience note from these reactions? john: it's been a wild and woolly week in south carolina

and i lot of tough shots taken atd trump and the others over everything. i think it suggests that in many ways on certain issues, especially this issue of immigration, the republican party is donald trump's party now and none of these guys are going to be on the other size -- side of trump here because the pope's comments could as a matter of fact as a matter of substance apply equally to them. matt: i think trump's plain vote -- motivation is when people lash out at him, he lashes back. but if it hadn't been done today, the news was going to be dominated by marko rubio's polling and governor haley's endorse mint the trump could have ridden this thing all the way to sort -- saturday. i think some of the others just say we don't want to create a fight with him thattier --

we're not going to win. trump will dominate today and maybe on to saturday. john: and that will be a real change of pace. all right. when we come back, brand-new flubs from our bloomberg south carolina poll after these words from our sponsors. ♪lote

matt: we have some brand-new democratic numbers from our south carolina poll and they show hillary clinton way, way up there in the palmetto state, over bernie sanders. the breakdown was 50% african-american and 40% light. here's how the vote or the

preferences cut across those rarnle lines. clinton crushes sanders ploong black voters. but sanders leads clinton 45-42% among likely light voters. so, mark, obviously being way behind hillary clinton is not good news for bernie sanders. is any of this good news for sanders or is it all just bad, bad, bad? matt: people have to remember that it's about delegate accumulation. one of these is going to come out march 1 with a lead in delegates. i don't think sanders thinks he can win in south carolina but he needs to show people that there is a sanders coalition that is -- that involves young people, first-time voters, dominating plen and holding his own with women, especially young women, and i think this poll suggests that if he gets some more momentum, he can

build such a coalition. john: yeah, i mean, look, it's the case that barack obama in 2008 was never able to win the white vote against hillary clinton. he obviously dominated the black vote and they more or less split the hispanic vote. if sanders comes out of this winning the white vote, it gives him a card to play. maybe it's not enough for the nomination. then the question is can he get enough of the nonwhite vote? he would need to move that number up but he's within striking distance. if he wins here in nevada and that percentage of african-americans rises in south carolina he could suddenly be a real threat to hillary clinton over the long term. matt: let's look alead to pr are gsh march 1. 822 delegates in play that day, more than five times as many as those allocated in the four

february contests combined. we have grouped those four -- i'm sorry, grouped those march 1 states into categories -- those racially similar to new hampshire and iowa, a.k.a., mostly white, those with sizeable minority populations like south carolina and those like colorado with a substantial hispanic group. does our poll give sanders -- sanders reason on to feel optimistic ore pessimistic about march 1? >> the world is going to be a different place after saturday. if he wins in nevada. it gives him momentum and we have to think about his 0 -- potential. she's still the front runner. second, there is no winner take all in these states. there are places in these states with high, for instance,

african-american communities, where hillary clinton will do quite qul -- well but other places with a large white community where sanders will do well. he doesn't need to get close to parity even in the states that are most diverse with a lot of delegates. john: that's true. if sanders loses here in nevada on saturday he could be in real trouble because hillary clinton will almost certainly win the primary and go into march 1 with a huge momentum. however, if the south carolina contest is up for grabs and more in play then than it is now, if he can come close to beating her in south carolina, the world should shift a little bit on its axis in these states. if he can push up his numbers with african-american voters he could get himself in a situation where he could end up march 1 deadlocked with her.

if i ends up deadlocked with her march 1, you are looking for a long delegate slog all the way to june and that's the kind of find -- fight that bernie sanders maybe, just maybe could ultimately win. matt: and one thing he should do is spend money in those african-american states. watch for that. launched nton today another blitz to try to launch -- woo voters in nevada, the silver state. congressman luis girts -- claimed of illinois an op-ed that bern esanders voted against immigration over the years. and this eye-catching ad in the

silver state -- >> my parents had to moving, deportation. i'm scared for them because of the deportation. i'm scared they're going to deport me. >> come here, baby. [applause] i'm going to do everything i can so you don't have to be scared, so you don't have to worry about what happens. i feel very -- really, really strongly that you are being very brave and you have to be brave for them, too, because they want to -- you to be happy, they want you to be successful, they don't want you to worry too much. let me do the worrying. is that a deal? i'll do the worrying and i'll do everything i can to help. [applause] i'm hillary clinton and i approved this message.

matt: we've played that whole ad even though it was a minute long because there was no way to cut it up without draining it of the emotion. john, with that ad, with the clinton campaign attacking senator sanders' record, where does the fight stand between the two over the clurebl latino vote? john: i can tell you, out here it's really heating up. we saw about a week or more ago the clinton campaign roll out the big guns in the african-american surrogate wore -- war and now rolling out the ig guns in the hispanic car. that very strong op-ed brought up sanders' delay and lack of support on votes. i think they're unleashing the hounds right honor -- now on sanders and it could have a real effect on his ability to

win in this state. pedro: yeah, tonight they're both appearing in a town hall focusing on latino issues. there is also no doubt that both with the latino and african-american community, the sanders campaign has been playing symbolically pretty well. enough endorsements to make this at least a symbolic contest. john: yeah. like i say, some are starting to look a little harder at his record. coming up, governor bobby jindal, his thoughts on the race when we come back.

matt: our next guest has got no fight in the g.o.p. race on saturday but he still is interested in the outcome. the former chairman of the republican party has brought with him the mail eyes gotten from the candidates at his home in just the last couple days. you are getting a lot of voter contact. >> this primary has always been good for sm -- south carolina. first in the south. since 1980 we've been doing if -- it. it's been a scage fight so far. you go to iowa, new hampshire, nevada but in south carolina we want to see how you take a punch, not how you throw one and we've seen some punches thrown this week. tt: do you suspect the punch by donald trump will help or hurt him? >> help him. he tapped into that anger, that

issue that some of us were -- were hoping it would be a discourse that was kind of civil. he's going to win the day here. i talked to two catholic elected officials, pretty serious people about today and they wouldn't go pup -- public against their opponent but both -- against their pontiff but they agreed trump is not going to have a problem with that. matt: one said if trump hins -- wins our primary in new hampshire, that's bad for the primary. if trump wins is that bad for the south carolina primary? >> let me tell you something. we have elections for a roseon. there are going to be about 700,000 republicans show up, 100-pound -- 100,000 more than in 2012. they need to pay dearnings attention to what trump has done and brought to the table. he's created some interest, he's ad, or indiffer,

created crowds we've never seen that big in south carolina unless it was a sporting event or the president of the united states. the democrat party has got some people that are angry. so -- matt: we don't know how jeb bush is going to do but he's not going to win the primary. what is the problem here? >> i love the bush family and i'm not sure if it was a good idea to tackle it. they're patriots, compatriots. their mother is in today. their brother was in. i contend the brother is two and a half years late, bush 43, in getting back on the trail with us because general's had to carry some baggage into the race. matt: without the upside? yeah, without the upside,

which was the popularity of his brother here. with nikki going for rubio, that's not going to sl -- well for him. but i saw jeb today, he's giving it 100%. eets a bush and he's going to compete to the last minute but i suspect bad news comes -- come saturday. matt: if ted cruz does not finish a strong second here, finishes third or fourth somehow, what does that say about his viability and strntd in the southern states he's been counting on? >> ted's a good cacher. they've probably the -- spent the most money early on in data mining. i don't think ted is over. he's got something to say. he certainly has what i would term the religious right, certainly has their attention. he's been there.

i don't think it's over for him. i think you are going to run into what we call the s.e.c. primaries -- matt: is there a reason to think he will perform better in other southern states than here? or -- > he ran up against tim scott, nikki haley and trey gowdy. i said early that might be enough to beat trump with those type of endorsements. trump is getting nearly a third of almost every one. but he's not growing much. as long as this crowd is as big s it is, once you get head up, i guess your point is if he can't do it here, where can he do it? you know, he's got ground game. he's been there. i certainly wouldn't advise him to get out, but maybe he will. matt: oh, he won't get out! i'm not saying he will get out.

>> i think you're going to jump into some pretty good states and it's going to be more media. the caucuses are different, it doesn't get the coverage. but it's different here. trump has sucked a lot of the objection i jep out of this race. it's surprised us all. matt: mr. chairman, thank you for joining us. coming up, bobby jindal and more. and you can listen to us on bloomberg radio. right back after this word in our sponsors. -- from our sponsors.

>> joining us now is one guy who wants marco rubio to be president, the former governor

of louisiana, bobby jindal. tonight, pat roberts, the senator from kansas. governor jindal, thank you for taking the time to chat. >> thank you for having me. matt: governor, tell me what you think the state of the race is. who is still in the running for in -- this nomination? >> look, i'm biased. i think marco is going to win this. he's got the endorsements of nikki haley, very popular governor here, tim scott, the very popular senator and trey goudy, the very popular congress plan. but beyond that, marco's got the ability to cut across lines, to unify our party, to attract voters across other demographic lines and across party lines. he's got the most room to grow his support. matt: i know who you think is going to win and who you want

to win. who else can win besides your candidate at this point? >> well, look, let the voters decide. i think trump benefits as there are more kdskd -- candidates left in the race. that is -- as more drop out that is actually bad for him. i think jeb bush has put a lot of time and money into this state, his family is spending a lot of time in this state. quite frankly, coming out of saturday night, i think marco is going get a great boost and then offer to sneve and the south the matt: do you see any way na donald trump pays a political price for exchanging words long distance with the pope? >> i've been predicting donald trump's demise since last fall. remember, america is more general rurs than any other country in the world when it omes to donating resources and

i do think every country has the right to securities border are but the reality is donald trump gets away with saying things other people could never say. the reality is with scalia's tragic passing last weekend, i'm hoping more and more voters will see how serious this election is. i think some trump supporters look at voting for trump as the a way to send a protest signal to git washington's atension -- get washington's attention. very k they see this is a serious election. we've got to win in november and with a conservative. i don't think trump is the best person to do that. obviously i think marco rubio is. he gets away with saying things other people couldn't or wouldn't say but as more candidates drop out, that's

worse and worse for donald trump. matt: talk about your candidate's position on the issue of abortion restrictions the case rve a -- incest or rape. how would you justify that restriction for them? >> look, i'd say a couple things. obviously you are talking about horrific, horrific cases. if you're asking me to address these people who have endured these horrific crimes, my heart breaks for them and they have our support. i absolutely respect senator rubio's strong position in support of innocent human life. i -- you may remember in the debate before the last one up in new hampshire he was being pressed eloquently and he said he would much rather lose the election than be on the wrong side of this question. marco, like i am, has a very

strong faith and comes from that tratdition. you have to respect the fact that you have a man of deep convictions who is telling you hat he believes, not trying to agree with opinion polls the i think marco is a serious christian, believes in marriage, the santity of --ing pping sanctity of aluminum life and i admire him for stating the views so strongly. matt: governor, you are in the state, and do you plan to travel around more to support him? >> i do. i've got kids to take to the carpool but i said i would do anything i could to help him and i'm happy to be here in sk

and happy to go to other states as well if they think i could be helpful the matt: thank you. coming up, david plouffe and request why he is returning to the campaign trail. cumpling -- coming up right after this. ♪

>> today as we enter the less than 48 hours away window on the democratic race here in nevada i spoke with obama campaign veteran and chairman of uber david plouffe, who is making his campaign trail

deburt here today as a backer of hillary clinton. i started by asking him about the state of the silver state race. we're here in nevada. how high are the stakes here for hillary clinton and bern irsanders? >> i don't think they're make or break. i think south carolina is probably going to be the more important contest but it's important. hirm had a big lead. i've seen it in other caucus states but without the same intensity. >> from her per sect -- perspective it seems that the way the narrative works, you win here, she's got a lot of strength. it's a long time, you've not had one clean victory. in any of the early states if she loses here and it's another long stretch, a whole other week to get to sk asking. >> i remember back in 2008 when

we won iowa. not a time. won by eight points. so we thought well, we'll get our mojo back in nevada. we still lost by six points in -- overall. that was tough for us. i don't think necessarily if she loses by a point or two here that is going to make the campaign spiral out of control. but at some point you do need to get back into the momentum. john: do you think for sanders, if she were to beat him here, how bad is that for sanders? >> again, i think -- sanders, there is probably more -- sanders has to keep winning. he's just got to keep winning. i don't think it's devastating but he's got to keep winning. but listen, he's doing better than anyone would -- could have manled three months ago. they've put together a

remarkable grassroots campaign. that's what she's up against. fluidity, strength, rationalist, but in a primary it's all about excitement. bernie sanders is basically asking about santa claus and people don't like to be told what they can't have. i think again, primaries are about excitement and sanders is kind of the excitement candidate. my sens is ssh sense is when we're talking 30 days from now, she's going to look a lot stronger. they basically have to withstand there -- this to get to the brighter days in march. it's no fun. and even if they win nevada it's going to be closer than people think it should be so basically they're going to be n the bare elve until mr.. john: i remember covering this caucus in 2008 and thinking

that of all the states this was the weirdest, most conceivey and hinky election of all. why is nevada so weird? >> well, you have caucuses, you have casinos. and politics here, like in new jersey and louisiana, it's crazy. john: why? >> well, there's a lot of deals being struck, yeah. for us, we got outhustled. -- hustonned. question did very well up in clark county but got mamboed down here. the clinton campaign did a good job of peeling off? of the members so we didn't do as well down here. john: but as i recall you guys won the delegates. more important than winning 9 popular vote. >> that's interesting. it's the very first time the media turned that are tonings delegate -- delegates.

so why am i so confident she's going to win? remember the last election on super tuesday in march, february of 2008. we win idaho by like 60 pints -- points. do get a delegate you need to win landslides. where is bernie going to have a land slirde? vermont. she's going to be close. she's going to win a bunch of these southern states by big margins and thren have a delegate lead. john: we just did a bloomberg pool of south carolina for republicans and democrats. the numbers out today, the interesting thing is clinton way ahead, not unexpectedly but sanders still beats here -- her with light voters in south carolina. she wins among african-americans, 59-20. a huge deal in a state where 50% of the voters are going to

be african-american but what are the implications of band -- sanders being able to win the white vote? it's all about coalitions, and coalitions matter a lot. you guys built ail formidable coalition on the basis of white liberals, african-americans and mill enyals, right? what does it mean to hillary clinton if the while the vote she relied on in 2008 is not there for her in 2016? >> well, we'll see. there is a very large progressive white vote in sk asking. i think sanders will do very well there so i think as you look at the ohio, missouri, north carolina, these bigger states, texas, she'll do very well with the white vote. but that's right. e had mill enyals -- millennials, the younger, sort shall college educated whites. if sanders were to develop real strength in the nick --

african-american community, i thill city -- think she's going to win the nomination but he's going to get much closer. john: if bernie sanders gets what percentage of the vote in south carolina would you say that say problem? >> you know, north of 40. john: so south of 30, looks like we're ok? >> yeah. in the other sites, the candidates are going to have less time on the ground and her strength is going to be maintained at a higher level in those march 15 states. i think at the end of the day shies going to do very well with the white vote. she's just got to basically endure this crucible right now, which is not a lot of fun. john: one last yeah, what sanders has done is demonstrated clearly huge generational split. he's blowing her out in every demographic including

african-americans and hispanic, among young voters. as she looks forward toward the general where it looks like she has some pronounced weaknesses with a huge, important part of the obama coalition. >> i think it's a big challenge. of the obama coalition, younger voters would be from my standpoint the thing they should be most concerned about. it's going to take enormous effort. if clinton is the nominee and i think she will be but the clinton campaign is going to go -- have to go there on the ground and meet with the supporters and hear them out. it's going to take a lot of work. it's not going to happen overnight. the stakes, 25 million more on health care or not? planet warming or cooling? but you can't rely on that alone. if you were a betting person

right now, trump or cruz look like the most two likely -- nominees. buff to work for it. i think one of the central challenges of the campaign is going to be how do we put that together? if clinton turns that margin into an absolute dead heat with younger voters. john: if you look up and see tidcrurs -- marco rubio, nikki haley, cuzz that picture worry you as a democrat if they were the nominee? >> i doesn't worry me. i think that's going to be a really interesting narrative, young, diverse, versus old, but the reality of their positions is what matters. look at marco rubio. on everything, the iran deal, gay marriage, health care, tax cuts for the wealthy, on all those issues he's hard tea

party right. he might put a nicer image on it. that will be one of the challenges for the clinton campaign. marco rubio has to be defined. if he defines himself, and i think the press will aid and abet here, he will scout a little bit to the center. and that's a big problem. matt: when we come back, ronald reagan's chief of staff, ken duberstein on the brewing supreme court battle. after this. ♪

matt: joining us now from washington, what we used to call an old washington hand. ken duberstein. ken, thanks for joining us. >> it's great to always be with

you guys. matt: tell us the story so far of what you think has happened politically since justice scalia passed away. >> oh, i think you've seen people go to their battle stations. i think, you know, it's been going on for 30 years now ever since the bork nicky anosike -- bork nomination. supreme court nominations have become political circus, have become political campaigns. poll testing, focus groups, commercials, fund-raising. i've received a whole bunch of them already. everybody neets -- needs to take a deep breath, spop hyperventilating and let the process proceed. you know, the constitution allows the president to nominate, and president obama is clearly -- has clearly made that decision that he wants to go ahead and nominate but he

also needs to consult with the senate, and the senate has the constitutional right to do advice. and whether they hold a hearing or not i think depends in large measure on who obama decides to nominate. but everybody just needs to cool it for a while. we haven't even had the funeral of that great justice, justice scalia and people are already going to their battle stations. i don't think that speaks well for the process or for the immediate future of this confirmation fight. matt: keb -- ken, the president's got to balance what he thinks is right and what he wleevess in and for the party but for the good of the country, who should he nominate? >> somebody that could get 97 votes in the united states senate, maybe 90. suter got 90 votes.

kennedy got 97. ustice scalia got 90-some. we need somebody who can be universally praised and that may be combrim possible in this you -- new political environment but you know president obama asked the question the other day would he nominate a moderate and the answer was no. so is this going to be a political statement? or is this somebody who he really wants to put on the bench who could bring the american people a consensus? i think that's necessary right now. god knows with all of our institutions under attack, including the supreme court, is sathes -- is a time for let's try to rebuild some of these institutions and the respect and faith we used to have in tem. you don't do that by signaling a political chicago, but rather somebody who can rally people

and be almost a unanimous confirmation by the senate. matt: and ken, what would you say to senator mcconnell about how i should proceed in the coming days and weeks? >> i think he also should take based reath and decide onwhat president obama does how to proceed. you know, i always learn from the united states senators that they always leave a back door, a side door, or a trap door. i am sure mitch mcconnell has left himself some wiggle room. but based on what mitch mcconnell must be thinking, that obama is going to go down the path of a far left liberal, then he has no choice but either not to have the confirmation learing and in consultation with senator grassley or to have a hearing no one ke sure that

ultimately reaches a vote in this senate. matt: ken duke erstein, one of the best things washington ever got out of brooklyn and a wise plan in the ways of washington. we'll be right back with who won the day. ♪

john: mark, i know who won at the craps tables today abandon it wasn't me -- and it wasn't me. but who won the day? matt: it's not the partnership. it's donald trump. he smartly did something that on first blush people think was

crazy but it turns out it was crazy like a fox. he slashed back at the pope. john: i'll give you my answer from out here in nevada. it's still early. there is a big town hall coming up between hillary and bernie. you a -- but as of now because of that latino hispanic assault i think hillary right now is winning the day. check out bloombergpolitics.com for more on that south carolina poll, the pope and much, much more. moorks coming up on "bloomberg west," emily chang talks to a senior executive of google. coming up. for john and me and everyone ter -- here, thanks for watching the say on ara. ♪

you're watching "bloomberg west." a papal message today for donald trump -- anyone who wants to build a wall along the border with mexico is not a christian.

little -- trump wasted time before responding that it's disgraceful to question a person's faith. meanwhile, the pope may be willing to offer flexibility to the faithful because of the threat of the zika virus. the virus has been linked to birth defects. here in the u.s., president obama has signed legislation hitting north korea with more sanctions for redues -- refusing to stop its nuclear weapons program. and president obama will plaque an historic visit to cuba next month 55 years after the u.s. broke demoim -- diplomatic ties after an agreement. the castro regime is still criticized for aluminum rights abuses. bloomberg