♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." ursula von der leyen is here. she is the defense minister for germany. american with authorities in washington. we are pleased to have her on this program to talk not only about germany's role around the world but also critical issues facing relationships with the united states, the european union, russia, iran, and other countries. so i begin with this question though, you entered politics in 20,000 one, you are a doctor, gynecologist. your doctor -- your husband was

a professor of medicine. you spent time in america. in 15 years, it you are now the defense minister and people talk about you as a possible chancellor if angela merkel steps down. how did you do it? minister von der leyen: good question. [laughter] merkel gave mela the first appointment as minister of family affairs. she gave a lot of trust in advance that i'm going to manage this task, and that is a way to enter politics. my father was a politician too, so i always have the impression as a child that politics can really change things. i think still is true, but i came with a lot of enthusiasm, and thanks to angela merkel, i was able to go this way through minister for labour and social affairs and now minister of defense. it is the combination you need,

a boss that trusts you and give you responsibilities. charlie: but you were also the defense minister at a time where germany is reassessing always being asked to play a more forceful role around the world. minister von der leyen: this is true because out of our history for quite a long time, we are very hesitant to get more involved. also in the critical crisis scenarios. trinity --fication, germany try to be relevant and economically strong country, and it is necessary to take over response ability on those fields that unlock the nice ones -- that are not the nice ones but the conflict and crises and wars. we have benefited over many, many decades from our allies in nato, who protect us.

it is kind of time to pay back. charlie: tell me about your conversations here in america. you just came from meeting with asked carter, terry of defense, susan rice, national security advisor. can you tell me what questions are being raised? minister von der leyen: first of all, both of them were very interested in what is going on in europe and the budget crisis. yesterday was very important summits of the european heads of state and government concerning the refugee crisis. they focused on how to tackle a problem of illegal migration treated by smugglers and traffickers, mainly in the agency that is the area between turkey and greece. there were two things that happened yesterday. first of all, nato started an activity on the agency to dismantle the patterns of the

smugglers and inform the coastal guard of turkey and greece so we can stop them from pursuing their horrible business. charlie: with respect to chancellor merkel, the cc limits on how much germany can do? how many refugees germany can take? minister von der leyen: we took approximately one million last year. define know, if you asylum as the duty to give shelter or to protect people who are politically persecuted, and who come from a war country or zone, this is fine. this is a high-value to do that. but of course we see a lot of migrants coming out of economic reasons, and those migrants cannot opt for asylum, they must be sent back.

conceptd to work on the , on a larger concept that looks at the asylum seekers and genuine asylum seekers, instead of those who are economic migrants coming from other cut purposes. we have and had to make sure -- if we want in europe no borders between the member states, we need to secure the external borders. this is a fact and greece and of course we have to care for the root courses for people to flee their homeland -- causes for people to fill you their homeland like in syria. homeland,lose to the turkey, lebanon, or jordan, so they can stay close to their home. you see what i am telling you,

it is a complex story. and we decided not to turn down those who really need asylum because the task is so humongous. you care for them, but clear the other task. charlie: angela merkel eight a political price -- paid a political price? minister von der leyen: there is a lot of skepticism in germany if this will work. in the beginning people were on one hand overwhelmingly helpful concerning the refugees, but on the other hand weren't, how many are going to come? step by step, as the population is seeing that we are trying to stop the domestic problems with integration, trying to work on securing the external border of europe, working to

reduce the flow of migrants and fighting isil with others in the coalition against terror that there is a difficult but a path that is worse to go because it is sustainable if you want to go it. charlie: it is also led to the rise of far right parties in europe. they lay on the increase, including germany. minister von der leyen: to a certain extent, yes, because there is a lot of skepticism. thingsfear that too many might change. in their countries. in germany for example. response ability is, as convincing, to be and stick to the concept we once developed, which in my eyes, is the right concept. to convince people over time we will solve the problem.

at the moment there is still a lot of skepticism, and this gives of course a lot of fuel to right-wing parties. charlie: does it change your view? minister von der leyen: over time, if we do it well, if we manage this crisis, it will change europe for the better because it will add another experience that, even if there are huge problems, we are able to solve this problem, 500 million europeans can solve this problem. better than any single member state could ever do. charlie: let me turn to the war against isis. i assume we are talking iraq and syria as well. there is much talk in iraq about an attack on muslims. is that evident? -- imminent? minister von der leyen: it is on the agenda, and the one that a prayer -- appeared to be the

right one. they have a vivid interest to gain back the territory from isil, but to support them not only by arms and formation but also airstrikes and reconnaissance. they want to work with the peshmerga insurgents, it did with the others, and it should work for most all to -- mosul too. charlie: but it will be hard. minister von der leyen: it will not only be a military fight. it will be a fight we will only we haveave taken mosul, a lot of reconstruction and reconciliation so that a potential piece will be sustainable in the area. isil has destroyed not only a lot of territory and killed people in most brutal ways, but

area,lso destroyed in an the ability to live peaceful between shiite and kurdish. charlie: you have germany playing a role. minister von der leyen: germany playing almost two years in supporting the kurds, the person with arms anderga training areas. we were able to get enough strength and courage and equipment and training to the kurds that they did not only stop isil, we will able to protect 1.5 million refugees. there were a lot in the refugee camps and kurdistan too, but they were able to defeat eiffel and fight back isil and regain territory, which is enormously important because it destroyed

the image of invincibility of isil. charlie: the image is gone. minister von der leyen: it is gone. charlie: as the caliphate has diminished, the invisibility has gone. minister von der leyen: exactly. this was the thing to prove with the peshmerga, that you can fight back isil. charlie: so recruiting is much more difficult for isis. minister von der leyen: exactly because this invincibility at the beginning was attractive. charlie: who else will participate? germany will provide arms and supplies, united states will have special forces on the ground and air. the american military. our saudi's involved? minister von der leyen: there are many countries in the coalition against terror. charlie: but they are all involved in retaking mosul. minister von der leyen: most, but the cult coalition against

there are more than 60 countries being involved of all different tasks that are necessary. for example, the emirates are involved with germany in the task of reconstruction of cities like ramadi or two great that had to be taken back from isil, just to name a task. charlie: when you take these, you find incredible carnage and brutality has existed in those places. isis had under control. minister von der leyen: it is sad what is left over. wounded souls and destroyed neighborhoods but also a lot of mines, so we have not only to reestablish us relation -- a population of people to learn to live together, but also cleaning the cities, reconstruct and all of that. charlie: so the part against

mosul, are they going to be shia muslims under muslims? minister von der leyen: i think they will be shia muslims with the central government of iraq. charlie: what about iranians? minister von der leyen: well, in iraq, without any doubt, iran is too. g a role roo -- charlie: what role of a playing? minister von der leyen: they support the shia, the sunni are supported by us. we try not to start to divide this country with sunni or shia but to stick together. what we are telling the kurds is that we expect them to stick to the central government as well as we tell the central government that we expect them to teach sunni and shia

together. that is the precondition to be supported by the coalition against terror. withie: what is the plan syria? you have these hostilities. is that working as far as you know? minister von der leyen: it is working. since 10 to 11 to 12 days by now, a short the bank, it gives us hope. knock on wood as it stays it is. syria is different from iraq because you can see what happened. those who are supposed to fight in thehave no unities approach on how to fight eiffel. -- isil. russia together with a side -- assad, the regime, not only to fight isil but the coalition we support -- charlie: yes and the united

states -- minister von der leyen: the coalition of terror. we see and solve that the turks were not only fighting eiffel -- isil but also having conflicts with the syrian kurds. from my word you hear the lack of unity of those who were isil gave strength to eiffel -- isil. now that we have the talks at a point about to have a cease-fire between those different groups. andexpect java under truck anoutra and isil to fight together. there is a huge access to this population, suffering to bring

humanitarian aid. charlie: has that begun? minister von der leyen: it has begun. charlie: is it successful in getting in? minister von der leyen: it is. there was a glimpse of hope that we will turn to a better time with assembling forces to fight isil and finding a solution on how we could see the future of sharia. that is a transformation time passed assad. charlie: is nato playing a role? minister von der leyen: not at the moment. charlie: not at the moment? minister von der leyen: it is not involved. charlie: would you like to see a involved? minister von der leyen: many members are already nato members. i think it is never too good to speculate on these things before is anythingre there concrete.

i don't want to speculate -- charlie: has russia played a positive role in syria? minister von der leyen: in the beginning they played a very difficult role. charlie: they have propped up the assad regime. minister von der leyen: yes they pretended, and the majority of the air fights went against civilians. this was atrocious to see that. at one time they were bombing time theyd another were agreeing to sit down at the negotiation table. it has stopped now. charlie: it is stopped now? they are no longer bombing, the forces the coalition's support? the moderate rebel forces? minister von der leyen: it is basically the cease-fire does work here and there. there are difficulties, but if you look at the processes for such a complex situation, over

the next few days it is going in the right direction. we should triple that i all means. ♪

♪ charlie: chancellor merkel and vladimir putin have a relationship. it is difficult, but she has

been very tough, and what he considers in that relationship with germany, he has a certain kinship with germany, because he served there in the kgb. he speaks german and they talk in german. minister von der leyen: and she speaks russian. charlie: what does she understand about him? minister von der leyen: well, she does not underestimate him. charlie: does not. minister von der leyen: not at all. she knows exactly that he does very well to calculate his options. that you have to take very serious the way he sees the world, which is different from the way we see the world. charlie: how does you see the world? -- how does he see the world? minister von der leyen: he said catastrophe of the last

century was the breaking up of the soviet union. this is not our perception. charlie: but he also sees the world in terms of what is on his borders. he worries about it, because that part of russian history has been invasion from outside. he has a keen sense of being able to protect their borders, which is the reason they worried about the encroachment of nato. minister von der leyen: what we built up his the huge architecture that has restrict -- respect for the sovereignty of each country, and countries that are at the borders of russia or europe have the right to decide with whom they want to trade, with whom they want to associate. so the sovereignty of a country to decide how to live is something which is very precious within the international law. it is a right that has to be

protected that has to be clear for us in europe or nato. it has to be clear for russia too. if you look at ukraine, you can't have the right to decide it wants to position itself. charlie: is russia allowing them to do that? with the people on the border in eastern ukraine? minister von der leyen: but we have seen almost two years ago now, russia did not allow that to ukraine. we saw a hybrid or fair in ukraine and eastern ukraine triggered by the annexation of crimea, which is unbearable. that was a very, very and still is a conflict, a very difficult situation. russia did this, this hybrid warfare, which is not open but disguised with a lot of propaganda, with a lot of cyber

activity, a lot of activity in social media, but of course heavy arms and weapons that would have triggered into -- charlie: that plane was shot down. there was discourse of that. minister von der leyen: exactly. i think one smart and wise decision was not to answer in the same way as russia as acting in the ukraine, otherwise we would have had an extremely dangerous situation over there. to answer to russia in a way that we said, listen, if you do not abide to the rules, we answer by hurting you in a way where you are the most vulnerable. your economic sanctions. of course, industry is valuable too. this put a lot of pressure on russia, ushering to economy at the moment -- it has a shrinking

economy at the moment. charlie: i'm behind that, those sanctions, and because of ukraine, president putin moved into syria, and some say has changed the dynamics and put russia at the center of the conversation about the future of syria. and russia's relevance is more important than it has ever been in action by the west, allowed him to do that. minister von der leyen: at the beginning, it ukraine before russia moved to syria, it was the meat agreement. alsot into a process supported by the sanctions and russia, theyor of wanted to find a solution. ukraine agreed to the process, which is still a work in process but is it to the medic process now. there are steps -- but it is the diplomatic process now.

you are right that russia turned into syria. russia put itself back into the game. that has to be admitted. aware of the fact that we, the coalition against terror, all of us, will not find solution for syria without russia. so it is better to sit down at the table now and to work on the peace process in syria. charlie: what do you think they want? russia? minister von der leyen: what they want? they want to keep their basis in syria, which is extremely important to them. regiment that the assad will not fail, which they were , oressful in supporting

reestablishing the assad regime, because it would have failed. charlie: you would have failed if they had not come in. minister von der leyen: yes, it was a fact. but russia is talking about the possibility that over time, long-term, there is a future without assad. this is important for both sides. it is wise not to aim at destroying the structures in syria, because we have seen too many city states that when you destroy the complete governmental structures, it is wise to keep an eye on her mental structures. -- governmental structures. a long-term future for syria cannot be with assad. charlie: that is part of the argument he has made, some government structure. the absence of government and we see in libya, and gained by isis

in libya. tommy me what germany wants to do, not only in libya, but in africa in terms of using its own give abilities? libya, central africa. minister von der leyen: one sentence, to make one thing clear, germany is never acting on its own. it is always acting with partners and alliances, be it nato work with the european union. this is something which is absolutely clear out of our history, but within these alliances, we are engaged. we have the number of soldiers south africa.li, we are worried about an increasing presence of isil in libya. workingoment we are with others on establishing a formation element in tunisia,

which is the neighbor of libya, so that potentially we can give formation training to libyan soldiers. the difficult part at the moment is without an existing government in libya, we still have to wait for a process while these two competing parts of the government form a government of unity to invite the international community to help. which should be the way we go. charlie: has united states, or better yet, has germany put aside, gotten past the idea that came out of the snowden revelations, that your chancellor had been spied on? minister von der leyen: whether we have put aside -- charlie: your abhorrence. in other words, has a relationship gotten past that, or do you still have great

anger, reservations? do you look at the president and say -- minister von der leyen: of course there was anger. but we know how important our american friends are for us, and we know there are many, many fields where we work together. charlie: but you don't forget. minister von der leyen: both sides, these things are not ok, but we are good friends, you can speak about that, you can clarify that. but the foundation, the basis is still good between friends. we are past that. charlie: so you are past that. and be assured it is not happening now. minister von der leyen: for us, it is important to have american friends at our side. we will never forget what you did right after world war ii when you not only came with the marshall plan, which germany -- you stressed out your hand to take us back into the country. this is something germany will

never ever forget. we stand together for the same values of freedom, of democracy, of the right to have, you know, free speech, free press. all these values are the common ground we are standing on together. a lot of problems we have just been talking about in the world we have, we really have to stick together. there is a lot of work out there to tackle. charlie: there is also this, and you just made a clear statement, the relationship between germany and the united states. it is clear on the american side that chancellor merkel is someone that president obama trusts, respects, and values or judgment. i have read a number of stories, there are a number of stories in which he wanted to know where she stood before he made his decision to go or not go. you are aware of that.

there is this respect between the two leaders as well. having said that -- [laughter] america some sense that , through your eyes and her eyes, is pulling back from its international commitments? is pulling back from a worry about too many wars into many places? -- in too many places? minister von der leyen: well, america's leadership is needed, and we are very grateful of a lot of leadership america is showing in different places in the world. to be honest, sometimes i think a few years ago, there was a lot of participants him -- paticip ism with america's leadership, because they were leading -- charlie: back in the bush

administration. minister von der leyen: too much with allies. charlie: there is not enough in the past. minister von der leyen: in the past, before europe started to criticize the united states for not believing in us, we must -- look athat we what we criticized a few years ago. the most important thing is that all of us take on the responsibility that we can carry , and we analyzed together and we decided together, and react on it together. which is working well with the coalition against terror in syria. charlie: i mentioned, secretary of defense ashton carter was here for an hour conversation earlier. he seemed to say to me that the united states is really now all in with respect to what it can do to defeat isis. they understand the challenge and there has been a renewed

effort. is that a fair reflection of what you see in him when you were in washington? minister von der leyen: yes, absolutely. i see how much the united states also invests in nato, in europe. there is a lot we can move together. what i think is also that europe always have to think about what is our share that we have to carry, and that we have to put in the common concept. charlie: speaking of that, your share, are the german people behind this in terms of budget do getting the authority to with the german leadership thinks it necessary to play a greater role in the world affairs? minister von der leyen: yes, there is over the last two years you can see a growing awareness that it is necessary. people do not like this country,

that is understandable. but they accepted by now that a situation in syria, and if we want to have relevance and political and economic terms, we have to take responsibility in defense and security measures areas this is accepted. too,ee that in the polls the appreciation of the armed forces is rising. people see what we have to do, whether we like it or not. this is the answer to global innovation. 20 or 30 years ago, we would never have thought about syria, afghanistan, countries so far away. but globalization brings so many opportunities but also responsibilities to care for our neighborhood, and our neighborhood now has syria. youlie: another question, are remarkable representation of someone who has done so much.

as a doctor, as a wife, as a politician, as a minister of government, the mother of seven children. , thatto say, i assume women can have it all and do it all, and men have to play the same kind of role that women are playing in terms of full sharing other responsibilities of family. is that what you have learned? is that what your life is testament to? minister von der leyen: oh yes. i struggled to learn that at sanford. charlie: you did? minister von der leyen: we moved in 72. he was not a medical professor, he was a young medical doctor. we came with three children, and i came out of an environment in germany that was very much not adult supporting. for the reconciliation of family was concerns. neither for the mother or the

father. there was the expectation that mothers and fathers take time with the children are concerns. they put a lot, in the stanford university put a lot of emphasis on the father playing a role. i never forgot that. i never forgot how much strength that saves me, a young family, we moved back and we had five children, to american citizens. american citizens. in in germany i turned it into the family policy i did. what is necessary for society in a highly industrialized life country is that you meet young men and young women, if they are educated, and if they want to earn their living, which is great for the country, and if they want to raise children. the best thing a government can

do is support them with infrastructure, which is , but also put emphasis on the father's role. what my father -- what my husband and me learned, if you share both, raise the children and know what the job is like, you have a broader approach for the children, what the responsibility for both parents is concerned. father is always a father. the single is for the mother. on the other hand you have more security if both are able to learn -- earned a living. ofthis has the perspective security that you need to raise children. charlie: do you want to be chancellor? minister von der leyen: oh, we have a wonderful chancellor. and i keep saying -- charlie: each generation has its chancellor.

but the question always has to do with the next generation. she will not be chancellor forever. minister von der leyen: she is a great chancellor. charlie: of course he is. my question is simple. do you want to be chancellor? minister von der leyen: i am not going to answer that. the only one i didn't answer. charlie: thank you for coming. i know you have a voice certain kinship with america. back in a moment, we'll talk to jony ive about design. stay with us. ♪

♪ charlie: from the defense minister of journey -- germany to the chief design officer of apple, we talked it jony ive, asking the question, what makes apple apple, and the role he plays in the identity, its products, and its future. we do some products that had been years in the making, products being refined, products being made better. they came off of a table at some point in your design studio, and your work. and you shape, and you modify, eyesou recognize, -- ogden nize, and all of a

sudden there is a day like today where it is no longer yours. you almost went, it is like a bird you have been holding, and you let it fly away. on change, andus it perhaps gets easier. it is a fairly shocking process when you have been working on , and i am nottly sure whether it will work out or not. you have committed streams for -- and -- come to rent is tremendous dreams of for it, but you never go beyond those of you in your immediate work colleagues. it is absolutely yours, and there is only a few of you that know about it. and then you get to this remarkably rude and very abrupt point in time where suddenly it goes from just a few people to hundreds of thousands of people in basically the same time

knowing all about this. and one that is shocking, and it is nerve-racking because -- charlie: is it wrenching? jony ive: there is an odd contradiction, because when you want to do something new, and there was a list of reasons why this will not work, there has to be part of you that is unreasonable and resolute. that sort ofut character attribute, you would give up at the first sort of obstacle. and so you are resolute and believe this can be done. time, you aree very concerned, is it going to be useful, and is it going to improve people's lives? are people going to like it? charlie: is that what it is?

--it will make people whatever it takes to mitigate with others or monitor their own life? jony ive: it can be the smallest thing you see somebody using, a product you have worked on. and you think, that was really worth it. materially, we make a lot of decisions and have personal impacts. it takes a lot of time. that sense of focus and being that resolute and deciding to people, whosmart have seven reasons why this is an ill-conceived idea, probably won't work, to ignore really smart people, i find personally very, very hard. and so, with that sort of focus, when you see somebody using it, and you see across the room and somebody smiles, that makes --

that makes all the difference. we are very clear that the goal of this is to make products for our customers. that is why we are doing this. and if our customers don't like the products, then i see that we are failed. charlie: do you create pressure for yourself, because you know that there is an iphone, you feel incumbent to make it better? jony ive: i think people deserve us developing something that is truly better. i think there are many products out there that really are, they are just different. there is a danger as designers, because so much of what you are doing, you are living in the future, and you are, by definition, creating something that doesn't even exist yet, as in, it is new. but there is inherent value in new. you and i can go and figure out something in half an hour that would be a new product.

it does not mean that it has any value and anybody would be interested in it, but there is a dangerous -- there are a lot of products surrounding us whose only virtues, i believe it is a virtue, is that they are new. what is really hard is to try and do something that is better. hard to resisted that temptation when we are developing a product or refining a product. at the end of the day you can say, well, really it is just different, or it is just new. and because there is what appears to be sometimes an insatiable appetite for the new, you know, ever people can take care of that. charlie: what does perfection mean to you? jony ive: perfection to me, establishes and describes a

goal. it is something that i long ago resigned myself, i will try and get closer and closer, but it is and ithat he'll -- hill, am too far away. charlie: a bridge to faraway? jony ive: it is one of the things that the pursuit of pes you, andit shaoe it establishes things you think are important. it infuriates you when you think you are getting closer. and realize that you are not. i think there are many of us that are driven by trying to make something this perfect, something that -- and somehow something that is perfect seems to me, it is more than it is something wrong. i think we want to be more

ambitious in making something that is not wrong. but yet, it drives us. charlie: i wonder if we will even know perfection if we see it. jony ive: i don't know that. sometimes i think you just get the faintest glimpse of an attribute that you think, i don't know how that could be better. and this is the problem with learning, isn't it? the problem is learning more, and the problem with being inquisitive and wanting to view, your let your view of the world is constantly changing. charlie: did you look at the 6+? e 6 as iphone do you look at the ipad pro and say that is as good as it can be?

i know there is nothing i could do to make it better. i may later, but i don't now. jony ive: i think right now, we look at these products, and we sees things immediately we want to make better. but sincerely can't stand together as an expanding group and say -- can stand together and as an exciting group say, this is it, we know how, we really tried. we really, really tried. charlie: is it hard for you to release it that you know it is not there to say, i don't know how to get from here to there, but i know that everything i know to do has gotten us here, and there is nothing i know to get, even the elect to be somewhere beyond this. i don't know how to get there, and therefore i will stay here? jony ive: we have in the past, we probably will in the future. there is a fusion -- threshold

that we have to meet. and we have and we will decide, you know, sometimes when i catch myself talking a bit too loud and realize i am trying to convince myself, we know that it is not good enough. thingss is one of the that i, i just feel so grateful to be part of apple. if our goal was to make money, i couldn't entertain feelings like that. it would have to be, well this is scheduled to be next, and we have to ship that. fortunately, that is not our goal. charlie: but you do have deadlines, don't you? jony ive: we do have deadlines, but we also have a sense of, you know, our pursuit for excellence . when we don't mean that, we will

delay the product. charlie: you stated apple, you have a phenomenal relationship with steve jobs and other colleagues, tim, eddie, and others. that thisw you knew place here, this culture here, was different. jony ive: absolutely. in parity tothat create something, was different. you are thethis as creator of a product that has made this company, the most valuable company in the world and lots of people very rich. you created a product everybody wanted to have. and sold more than anybody could ever make. there is business to this, there is commerce to this. there is a desire for everybody

to feel, love, buy. jony ive: there is business, and there is commerce. your very clear about the hierarchy -- we are very clear about the hierarchy. we have been clear that we expect those concerns to be consequences of us doing our job right. and so, our job isn't to make money for apple. our job is to try and make the very best products that we can. good, andnd say i am we trust we are confident and do our jobs. in trying to describe them. and if we are confident in making them, they will be -- in bulk,n bo and they will make money. that can sound simplistic. i am aware that can sound like an easy thing to say, given our

vantage point right now, but that is actually what we said in 1998 when the company was struggling. you see, we didn't say the goal was turnaround. if we had said the goal back in the late 1990's was to turn the company around, that is all about money. you can turn a company around by spending less and trying to make a bit more money. what we said back in the 1990's was the goal was to stop making products that weren't great. and the goal was to focus on trying to make a great consumer product. charlie: and this happened when steve jobs came back? jony ive: when steve came back, that is how he articulated what the goals of the company needed to be. and this wasn't some subtle, this wasn't an exercise in clever wordsmithing. this was describing profoundly

different attitudes and approaches to what the problem was at hand. it takes a tremendous courage when you are losing fabulously large amounts of money to say our goal isn't turnaround. our goal is to make a great product. that is not a natural sort of reflex to that situation. is, let's not spend this money, let's try to get a little bit more. charlie: save the company. jony ive: that thrive. one of the things we worked hard on is the way we describe the .roblem and this is where i think language is so interesting. there could be ideas that generally start at, there is a thought, but it becomes quite quickly words and discussions and arguments. it is very easy, i think, to , anddramatic assumptions

they are often language-based. it is easy to make those and then miss huge opportunity. i think this was something that thoughtful about and very -- there was a lot of intention find the words he used. it wasn't just sort of like this . it was exactly these words to describe exactly this goal, and there is a whole other difference between this goal and a brother bobby way -- a rather sloppy way we would have taken. charlie: did you know him before the takeover? jony ive: i never met him. that was what was so curious to me. to see this product and the reaction to who made this, what does it do, who made this, where did they do this? in california.

and so, i felt an immediate sense of his, what he thought was important. that was one of the reasons why when we first met, we clicked in a way that we did. ♪

>> you're watching qvc. up next, the donald j. trump collection. mr. trump: i brought some things up. -- it's a private water company and i supply the water for all my places. it is very good. trump steaks. where are the steaks? he said, the stake company. we have trump steaks. if you want one, we will charge you about $50 a steak. [laughter] no, i'm only kidding. we have trump magazine. let me see the magazine. [laughter] ♪