♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: the ongoing presidential campaign has brought this country's deepening ideological rift into stark relief. a recent pew poll found that republicans and democrats are more divided today than at any point in the past two decades. this polarizing atmosphere has impacted congress's ability to work productively. former senate majority leaders tom daschle and trent lott address that issue in this new book, called "crisis point: why we must -- and how we can -- overcome our broken politics in washington and across america."

i am pleased to have them both at this table. first of all, how do you get together to write a book? mr. lott: we served together in the senate long time, both of us. through it all, we developed a good chemistry. it really involved our respect. we have different views, quite often. we developed a real trust for tom. we became friends. we were together with our wives, and tom said, it is time to put our experiences -- mr. daschle: we could not write a book like that if it were not majority leaders who could share perspectives about how we got here and the different views we have on issues to come to a consensus on what we need to do. charlie: people always talk about president obama, it was a

priority for him, he wanted to come here and bridge the bipartisan rift. says heot do it and wishes he had the political skills of abraham lincoln or roosevelt to accomplish it. is other person they cite ronald reagan and tip o'neill, that they had the capacity. why is that not true now? is it because of redistribution and all of that? races int people in which they have no primary opposition and therefore, they are pushed to their extremes? mr. daschle: they do fear that primary elections. mr. lott: we talk about that among republicans and democrats too. it is a combination of things. these are different times, different people. the media is very different.

charlie: 24 hours a day. mr. lott: money is a part of it. tom and i labored over that. we do not agree on how to fix it. but we agree there needs to be campaign reform, which could impact the money aspect. we do not just talk about fixing the rules. we talk about the need for civic responsibility, making sure elections are accessible. vote on saturday instead of tuesday. one of the things -- and i know trent feels as strongly -- we blame the airplane. people do not stay in washington like they used to. they leave on thursday, come back on tuesday, try to run the country on wednesday. you cannot do that in a country this complicated. we use the word "chemistry" a lot. there is no chemistry. charlie: because of the constant campaign? mr. lott: and raising of money.

because they go on so long and are so negative. then you throw in the super pacs running negative ads, and you do not know where the money came from. charlie: a hard decision for you to come to any consensus on the campaign financially? is daschle: on part, it because we are not confident we have the answer. i always favored an amendment that said money is not speech, if that is what it takes to overturn the supreme court's interpretation. i am for it. we can prohibit fundraising when people are legislating. those kinds of things. evencould have an impact though, at the end of the day, we have to deal with the money. mr. lott: i have a different view, but we did not focus on how we disagree. did do was, what can we

do differently we can agree on? charlie: how are you different as a leader from mitch mcconnell? [laughter] how long do you have? one of the differences is i had tom daschle as my counterpart. i do not know how much they talk. but we talk about in the book. we had red phones on her desk. when we picked it up, it went to him. i picked up the phone when i realized we were under attack. probablying, tom, we need to evacuate the building. we also used it to get around the media. it was like running a gauntlet.

sometimes, we actually wanted to talk without our staff supervising what we were saying. mr. daschle: we had in peach met, 9/11, anthrax, a 50-50 senate, that really took a lot of chemistry, trust. without that, you cannot legislate. it is impossible. what is your favorite quote? henry clay? compromiser. great i do not trust clay. he is a schemer. but god, i love him. charlie: is that the way you felt about ted kennedy? mr. lott: that is true. i worked with him on a bill. he wrote me a nice letter. i wrote him a letter back saying, i enjoyed working with you. ps -- if the world only knew.

i did not know it, but he framed it. charlie: showed it to me. mr. lott: when we spoke at the dedication of the kennedy institute, i said, i did not want the world to know. charlie: and certainly your fellow republicans. after a speech in mississippi, i worked with kennedy on the issue. do not say that anymore. lott lessas trent successful that he wished in trying to build a relationship with speaker boehner? mr. daschle: he has long felt there is nothing he could do that could work. he had mitch mcconnell who, on only --t day, said mike

my only job is to make sure he is a one term president. say, -- might say, i wish i had done more. under use camp david. i went up there with president quinton, and it was amazing. to build a relationship you cannot build anywhere else. charlie: i do not know if it is true, but the president seems to reach out to historians. would reachinton out to members of congress to talk about politics. mr. lott: george w. bush would have us over for breakfast. tom and i would go regularly after 9/11. bipartisan dinners in the corners. rters, to build relationships. charlie: i talked to somebody

who served as deputy secretary of state who said to me, the one thing i learned here is that relationships matter. he meant on the international scale. relationships matter. it develops trust. people are prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. mr. lott: it is so common sense a goal -- sensical. mr. daschle: compromise leads to progress. that is lost in washington. for some, it is the strongest national security concern, washington. we are vulnerable in terms of how we commit to the future. policies,budget defense policies, foreign relation policies. i did not work that much in the international area in the house. but as majority leader, you get

to meet with putin. mr. daschle: a lot of people think the answer is to bring in outsiders that do not have a clue about how washington works. the more you do that, the more it exacerbates the whole thing. we have had enormous turnover. have theot understanding, respect, or interest in developing relationships. charlie: here is what interests me. look at majority leaders on your side. think about you, harry reid. george mitchell. this is a different group of men. mr. daschle: it is. mr. lott: on both sides. both sides of the capital too. , when we were in leadership, there was a center. moderates on the democrat and republican side. middle,camped in the

but that group has kind of disappeared. more toties have pulled the left and right, making it hard to find the sweet spot. you do not have to call it compromise when you are producing results. you get results. do we need to do something about infrastructure in america? do we need to do a better job with the budget, make sure entitlements are there? yes. friends, conservative quit cussing the darkness. if you want to change something, it takes action. mr. daschle: absolutely. it presented the infrastructure for an agreement to go forward. charlie: how do you get to be majority leader? what skill is required? mr. daschle: i think it is --

going back to something we have talked about, it is relationships. building trust, confidence among your colleagues that someone who can organize and lead is capable of rising to that level. it starts inside. you have to be able to think through the issues. mr. lott: i enjoyed working the members individually. i was whip and enjoy the relationship. you have to get up every morning and say, i am going to have a positive attitude today to get something done for my constituency and country. if you provide leadership, it is amazing what you can a couple. it is not a constitutional decision. we did not have majority leaders until the 1900s.

p in theis called u senate unless the majority leader says it is. unless they call it up, it will not happen? mr. daschle: no. that is power. charlie: is that good? -- lott: you have to set have somebody that uses it judiciously. charlie: there is no restraint on it? mr. lott: there is one. if you go too far, you will not be there long. addition to the first bit of recognition, leaders have a lot to do with who serves on what committee. that gives you the ability to maintain some discipline. that is exactly what mitch mcconnell has done. let's talk about the republican party today. mr. lott: do we have to?

it is the strangest year i have ever seen. i have been watching politics pretty closely for almost 50 years now. i would have never been able to predict what has happened. , i haveo say upfront been for john kasich from the beginning. i have volunteered to work with him. we served together. he helped us on budget negotiations. he has the experience and knows how to get the job done. charlie: but there is a chance he will be eliminated. mr. lott: we are figuring a way that can happen. we will know by the 15th of march. charlie: will it destroy the republican party if donald trump is the nominee? mr. lott: it will certainly present challenges. like i said to somebody earlier today, i used to think how we treated one president would destroy it all. the position in

america is bigger than anyone, woman or man. we can survive this. we have for a long time. we have a lot of history in there. mr. daschle: we are darling all up, and -- dialing this things get out of control real fast. dialed upcampaign has the confrontational tone to a degree we have not seen in a long time. i think he has done serious damage to the country and i do not know where it is going to end. charlie: thank you for coming. crisis point. talking about one of the big issues that ought to be part of and part of debate the urgent agenda for whoever the president is.

♪

♪ ive,ie: we talked to jony chief design officer of apple, asking what makes apple apple and what role design plays in identity, products, and the future. this phenomenal

relationship with steve jobs and others. somehow, you knew this place here, this culture, was different. jony: absolutely. and the imperative to create something was driven by something different. i am saying this to a person who is part of the creation of a product that has made you, this company, the most valuable company in the world and lots of people very rich. you created a product everybody wanted to have. so much more than anyone could imagine. there is business, commerce, to this. there is the desire for everybody to feel loved by. jony: there is business and

commerce, but we are clear about the hierarchy. we have been very clear that we the --those concerns to be consequences of us doing our job right. our job is not to make money for all -- apple. our job is to make the best products we can. we trust if we are good and competent and do our jobs in trying to describe them, if we are confident in making them, they will be attractive and bought in volume and we will eventually make money. that can sound incredibly simplistic. i am aware that can sound like an easy thing to say given our vantage point now. 1998hat is what we said in

when the company was struggling. you see, we did not say the goal was turnaround. set the goal in the late 1990's was to turn the company around, that is about money. you can turn a company around by spending less and trying to make more. 90's, the goal was to stop making products that were not great. makingl was to focus on the great consumer product. charlie: this happened when steve jobs came back? jony: when steve came back, that is how he articulated what the goal of the company needed to be. ins was not an exercise wordsmithing. this was describing profoundly different messages and approaches to the problem at hand.

courage,a tremendous when you are losing fabulously large amounts of money, to say our goal is not turnaround. our goal is to make a great product. that is not a natural sort of reflex to that situation. is, let's not spend this money and let's try to get more. charlie: save the company. that one of the isngs we have worked hard on the way we describe the problem. this is where i think language , because theseng ideas generally start as a thought. it becomes quickly words and discussions and arguments. it is very easy to make dramatic assumptions. assumptions,hese

and they are often language- based, it is easy to miss huge opportunity. was veryomething steve thoughtful about and very -- there was a lot of intention to hide the words he used. behind the words he used. there is a whole world of difference behind this goal. charlie: did you know him before he came to take over? jony: it is interesting. i described how i think the things you do describe who you are. via the work he did, i knew him. i had never met him. that is curious to me. to see this product and the

reaction is, who made this? not, what does it do? hislt an immediate sense of , what he thought was important. wewas one of the reasons first met, we clicked in the way we did. charlie: tell me about the first meeting. jony: he came over to the design studio. was -- this was in 1997, i think. he saw a huge amount of design work that never made it beyond models. you could say, we have been exploring interesting designs. design waswith the

bust them. he recognized the work and was compelled and interested. ineentioned how incredibly ffective i had been, and he was absolutely right. because we had a store room full of models. that was when we first met. on that very same day, we left the studio and went quietly to another room. and started work on what became the imac. we met that day and started that product that day. charlie: he became your closest friend? jony: we became extremely close. charlie: soon. have --guess i tend to iewelieve a completely odd v

that things of substance and depth take a long time. that shattered that view i had. we could become profound friends quickly. i know your relationship with mark, same thing. jony: yes. genius. design that one of the things was we all see the same physical things around us. but there is something that happens between what we see and what we perceive. and that is a function of how we grow up, what our cultural references were growing up, just the sort of curiosities we have.

i think everybody has a wonderfully unique way of seeing the world, whether they are conscious of that or not. but i think there was a sense we realized we saw things and paid attention to things that we would not even bother mentioning because we do not need to be reminded that we are the only person in that room and paid attention to it. i spent a lifetime of just noticing things in a very internal way, thinking about them. i remembered one time when we were out shopping together. i think we were in italy. and lookedp a knife at it. he put it down. i said, that is a nice knife.

picked it up. i could see there was a tiny level in the gloss between the handle -- i know sessive,nds ob worryingly so. i could see this tiny change in reflection between the handle and the metal collar. i realized it was the glue. knife.no longer a it was a bit of metal that had been glued. normally, i would not have said anything. sounded have semantical. but we noticed the same thing. there is that wonderful

recognition. i think we realized that early on. love that.both charlie: do you think both of you benefit from the fact you ,ad somebody -- because to say this may be a dope-y idea, but what do you think? if you say that to somebody, it means you think it has some possibility. you are reinforced if someone and you can trust them to say, yeah, i think so. because you know if there is some possibility of seeing something, you will get it. i have a wonderfully deep reverence for the creative process that was not motivated

by what it can do for me. a reverence for the creative process. we both recognize that ideas were tenuously fragile. we both were comfortable at laughing at the appalling ideas we had. we were quiet and sensitive enough to be able to listen to the quiet idea. assumeten, i think we this big, grand idea that will eventually turn into something that can change the world can, and often does, starts as a quiet, tentative idea. i think we both knew how to listen, even if it did not appear we were paying attention. we could both listen.

it could sometimes be days afterwards that he would say or i would say, remember that thing you said or so and so said? i cannot get it out of my mind. there is a danger that we only pay attention to the louder voice. some of the most profound ideas i have heard come quietly and with humility. charlie: by the very nature, they have more power. jony: i think so, i think so. when somebody who does not speak eventually speaks and speaks quietly, it often gives us paus e. charlie: would you think of yourself as an artist or designer? or a builder? feel part artist, part designer, part engineer, part builder.

part craftsman. it is a mixture. am genuinelyt, i comfortable with being surprised and being wrong. i am the first person to raise my hand when something i thought was going to be good was just appalling. charlie: do you know why that happens? ity: i think because actually saves a lot of time. wastedseen so much time because of dogma and clinging to views. wastes a lot of time, bruce's a lot of people. lot of people.

i think we can save time. it is important to be self-critical and say, this is my fault. this is a bad idea. i am sorry i took everyone down this path. charlie: criticism is crucial, isn't it? he clearly believed that, steve. jony: he was a great critic. charlie: he believed it had value. you genuinely care about the product, you have to be very explicit and very clear in terms of criticizing it. something i talked about before, something i struggled with, part ding a cohesiveea and tight group of designers for , where we are close personally and

professionally, was having a tendency 10 or 15 years ago to in myrhaps, softer feedback. when he had been surgically precise and there was that surgical precision, from a distance, you can fixate on his behavior without bothering to find out why that happened. maybe there was a slightly softer way of giving that feedback. he said, well, you are not actually bothered by the feelings of those guys? which i was, but not entirely. he said, you are just being vain because you want them to like you, and you are scared if you are absolutely honest, they will not.

and we have worked very hard to be able to care so much about the work that we do not bring our own personal frailty and our to thesonal baggage evaluation of our work. i completely agree. criticism, very harsh is fundamental to what we do. charlie: you have grown to appreciate that more? jony: we figured out a long time ago that this has become fundamental to our process and how we work. ♪

♪ you have said, our success is a victory for purity, integrity, and giving a damn. and the best thing in the world is to create something that says loudly and clearly, "i care and " by the beauty, functionality, the sense of specialness.

jony: i think we could not want people are using our products, to not be aware of the complexity of the problems ut for them to be aware of a deep sense of care that we did not have to express. on,ould have still switched performed the majority of the product's functions. but we went way beyond that. i think that sense that we did care and we went the extra mile think thatra mile, i is part of evolution. charlie: it is evident in the watches, how you can change the bands. it is evident in how these

things are packaged, packaging. it shows you care. jony: on the packaging, we spend be heavytime trying to in our thinking so we can use the packaging thoughtfully. packaging is more than protecting the product. it is the first time you get to see and use your product. you have seen the ones on display. and we enjoy the. -- enjoy that. , youimes when it is late wonder why we are worrying so that nout the design one will see. but you know it is right. and we feel we are lucky to be working in a group of people that also believe it is right. charlie: it is like the idea of

saying no one will ever know and i will. i will know it is not as good as i could have made it. jony: i know. and i think the people will know, even if they do not see it with their eyes. my experience absolutely has been people sense it. charlie: what would you do if you did not do this? jony: i have no idea. it is all i can do. charlie: but you have a set of skills and you have a remarkable thingsnce and you have that reflect insight and commitment. i sometimes think of you and ask products,yond apple is there something that jony ive could do that would change our

world even larger? jony: at the end of the day, i like drawing and making stuff for people. very like doing that sincerely as a way of serving them. this, i thinkoing i would just be drawing or making stuff for friends. maybe it would just be christmas tree ornaments. i do not know. that is what i do. the scale on which i do it, i have been very lucky i have been part of apple. that has meant there has been a tremendous influence. there has been a reach to what we have been doing. and it has been remarkable that we can, together, practice our

process, which is unusual, clearly unique. about you,eve said if i had a spiritual partner at apple, it is jony. we think of products together and pull others in and say, what do you think? he gets into detail about each apple isnd understand a product company. he has more operational power than anyone else at apple. now you have even more operational power. have ahe one thing i do reasonable fluency in is moving from the big picture to the tiny details. and -- charlie: the fluency? jony: being able to move

backwards and forwards. it is a dim reflection of steve's ability. large,: to move from the big idea to the infinitesimal carrying out? jony: he could do that in ways i aspire to and can only dream of achieving. peculiar, a rare and valuable ability if you want to make stuff significant. charlie: i always thought the people that created apple, steve, the people that carry it --ward, tim, you, others is what a sense that it the company stands for, its thans, are more important

any of the products. the products may be a reflection is thevalues, but it values that have created the institution and represent the institution. jony: i completely agree. i think the products are the physical manifestation of a set s, a set of preoccupations, and they describe who we are. where our gaze goes, what we think is important. it is easy, though, to talk about values and easy to talk about culture. it is really hard to make great products. charlie: it takes a lot more than coulter? -- culture?

jony: it comes from culture, but culture is necessary, but not sufficient. it needs to be composited with a loody-minded, resolute view of, we are going to do this. clear about our values to do something new that has not been done. if there is a value, there is good reason for stuff being done. you are confronted with those reasons and you have two choices. you can say, that is a good reason. i am sorry for bothering you. or you can say, i do not believe that. i am going to find out more. i'm going to find someone who is more experienced. there is that sort of resolution where -- george bernard shaw

talks about you have to reject reason to innovate. you have to say, we understand this is reasonable. this is what people believe. but i am actually going to ignore you completely. and if you are a fairly sensible person and ignoring smart people is really difficult, the values of it are terribly important. they are easy to talk about. but there are behaviors that are necessary to turn those values into real products. charlie: what are those behaviors? jony: it is that resolution, that determination. those behaviors that can so easily be misinterpreted by people who have not got a clue about developing products, that sort of unreasonable drive, drive, drive. that decision to ignore expert opinion.

that happens every single time we do something that is new. charlie: here is what i found out about artists. artists, they study. you go to a museum. you go to a painting. at they are looking labor that went into creating the painting, more than the vision, how that color was conceived. it is almost like a journeyman ander having great pride looking for the details that make excellence. you have to have the capacity to see that. jony: yes, yes. charlie: and know how hard it is to get it, which is what you are saying? jony: i think that is exactly what i am saying.

i do not think it is a disconnect that there are behaviors that are necessary, ,ision and focus, and a culture turn those into tangible, manifest products. those behaviors can sometimes be misinterpreted. charlie: is there any possibility apple can get too complacento fat and to be as good as it has to be? jony: i am sure that possibility absolutely exists. i think one of the things that characterizes the way we work is be down insitance to the stables, worrying about what we are doing, our heads do not

tend to be -- charlie: thinking about how great we are or what we have achieved. jony: i think we try to stay hungry. i think we are more aware of the opportunity. we are more aware of the distance between us and the perfection we are chasing than ever before. so yes, that danger exists. that is not one that haunts me. charlie: steve sent to the graduates, stay hungry. stay hungry. it is the same thing to take said, when it is not reasonable. jony: i think the way you stay hungry -- you are not going to be much use if you are not eating. the way we have appetite for more is to be working and critical and aware that there is

a big gap between our ambition and our vision of what we are doing right now. each time we move forward, i think we are aware there is still that gap. not believe we will close that gap. it is what drives us. up, you wereing around a shop. jony: yes. charlie: you talk about models. it came to you reasonably early, didn't it? jony: it did. i grew up with an understanding that everything surrounding me was made. thatis interesting is people coming through this room, some will have a sense of the

story and the biography behind each physical object. some people would not think to ask and would not know. that was one of the things that intrigued me. , afather was a craftsman great sword smith. was tolearned early on essentially design, you needed to have a fluency with the materials you were designing in. that, over the years, has developed to such a point that, if we are working in a material and we really know this inside out, but we are not happy, we will not accept that. we will build a new material and try to make the core material better. charlie: this capacity to know that things are made and have

the ability to work with your hands has served you as much as your heart and brain. i think that has existed as an early childhood foundation. it seemed as obvious to me as the acquisition of language. curiosity that turned into a modicum of understanding, upon that, that is how i started to see the world. was aappened was it constant series of questions. why did they do that like that? why did they choose this material? to the simple -- i remember this white alarm clock that did not work anymore. i remember taking it to pieces.

sprang offtually because of the main winding spring. all the little cogs were like this little city that you never knew was in there. i remember wondering, is that in the tables? i was little. i just thought, it is so easy to why.accept and not ask i do not know if it is part of the human condition in that we accept our surroundings in a way. charlie: one last question. when you are hiring young theyners to come here, and all want to come here, what are you looking for? -- thehere was a time process would normally be someone would send in a

portfolio of work that would be reviewed. we would look very specifically at what they did, their design. i have always been more interested in the way people see the world. and this is a long time ago now. probably about nine or 10 years ago. i arrived late. we were interviewing this guy. and i was late and i did not want to be rude. so i stood outside the conference room. and i listened to him not described his work but describe the world as he saw it. and there was a sensitivity that was breathtaking. you could hear a pin drop. without seeing one drawing or one model, without seeing anything he had done, decided we

must hire this guy. to me, it is just how we see the ambition share that to, based on an understanding, to develop an expertise to sincerely join us in making the best products we can. charlie: thank you. jony: thank you, charlie. charlie: remarkable day here. ♪

>> let's just say -- >> the pride of miami, marco rubio. now rubio takes the snap. he drops it. rubio passes to his man, just out of reach. here's the handoff. it's a fumble. he is wide open. one final chance for rubio to save the game. can he do it? >> basically not even filling the end zone. ♪