mark: welcome to another edition of the "best of with all due respect." it was a week of controversy large and small, from a campaign manager being arrested for battery to a campaign manager eating pizza with a fork. all playing out right here. and if that wasn't enough, donald trump has sparked yet another comment storm for comments he made on abortion. chris matthews in a town hall on wednesday. chris matthews: should the woman be punished? for having an abortion? mr. trump: look -- chris matthews: this is not something to dodge. it is either murder or law.

should it be punished? donald trump: people in certain parts of the republican party would say yes. chris matthews: but would you? donald trump: i was say it is a very serious problem. it is a problem we have to decide on. mr. matthews: you are for banning it. mr. trump: are we going to say put them in jail? chris matthews: no, i am asking you. mr. trump: i am pro-life. mr. matthews: how do you actually do it? donald trump: you go back to a position like they had where people were perhaps go to illegal places, and you have to ban it. mr. matthews: they go to somebody who flunked out of medical school. donald trump: how do you feel about that catholic church position on abortion? mr. matthews: concur with their moral position, but not legally. donald trump: but what do you say about your church?

chris matthews: churches make their morals. you are running for president, chief executive of the united states. do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no? donald trump: the answer is there has to be someform of punishment. chris matthews: for the woman? donald trump: yes. mr. matthews: 10 years? what? you take positions on everything else. mr. trump: i do take positions on everything else. it is political. mark: the political world has been reacting to that fascinating exchange. john kasich was in queens, new york, and he criticized donald trump's answer as inappropriate. hillary clinton was around in harlem, she criticized and was quick to respond via twitter saying, just when you thought it couldn't get worse. horrific and telling. trump tried to walk back his remarks in not one but two statements he put out. if congress were to pass legislation making abortion

illegal and the courts upheld this and any state was permitted to ban this under federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act on a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman. the woman is a victim in this case, as is the life in her womb. my position has not changed at all. i am pro-life. john, this is swirling. it has replaced yesterday's trump controversy. how big a problem is this for trump now? john: it is a big problem on almost every level, mark. you think about what this means for donald trump in the general election. it is the kind of talk of that when we talk about marco rubio's position on abortion making it hard to win a general election, this is horrible. he is in a position where he is not only at odds with democrats, with independents, he is at odds on this issue with a lot of conservative republicans who

think that women should not be penalized but the doctors. he is patronizing and condescending toward women about abortion, calling them victims. it is bad on every level and plays into the woman narrative that has been building for weeks, or at least a week now for him. all bad, bad, bad, bad. mark: it is a big issue, there is no answer, and conservatives will criticize me for asking the question because it seems logical that if abortion is murder and a woman has one, she should be punished. it is politically untenable to say that, and a trump has said the woman should face a penalty, now they are victims, and old-fashioned view of women that will alienate a whole group of people. he can hope it goes away and make it go away, but this shows that when he is pressed, as chris matthews did on tough issues, he is still learning as a first-time candidate. john: yes, the thing about that

is the way chris matthews got him on this, try to get a little more depth with him on this issue. it is a conundrum. but trump did not see as pro-life as he is. he talked about the grasp of his position. it is showing underlying weakness as him as a candidate. before we talked about that, it is a position nobody will will forget. certainly, clinton will not, especially if he is the nominee. mark: not necessarily in the short term for the nomination, we will see it hurt him in the general. i believe it could hurt him in the short-term. john: right, yes. so now, let's talk about the other trouble in trump land. a day after his campaign manager was charged with battery for grabbing a reporter, last night during a cnn town hall, trump offered this as his version of the events in question.

donald trump: she grabbed me on the arm. i am like this. am i supposed to press charges against her because my arm is hurting. she had a pen in her hands. secret service does not know what it is. this was a town where i have a big investment, i'm trying to figure out if these are democrats or republicans. it was so minor, people y what is this all about? we have people in the middle east drowning people in cages, and he pushes her? what kind of country are we in when they go to kasich, i would fire him. ted cruz, i would fire him. you need someone that is going to be loyal to the country and to yourselves. john: he is also facing more damning headlines. police are searching for two men who allegedly assaulted a 15

year old woman in wisconsin tuesday night. here's video making the internet rounds in the past 24 hours. considering all of this, how to you think his campaign is going? mark: if he wins wisconsin or new york, the danger for him is all the swirling controversy, up to the notion of women and treatment of women. if he loses wisconsin and the exit polls show he has been bad with women, this is a narrative it will be tough to put down. john: these all connect up. you start with the tweet of heidi cruise. he sent that unflattering picture. you move on to corey lewandowski allegedly attacking a woman. the pepper spray, now the views

on abortion, all toward women, but there is also an atmosphere of barely restrained and sometimes unrestrained violence around trump. it is disquieting and it -- he may or may not have the wisconsin primary. but this is the first time it seems like trump is being battered right now. a little bit on the ropes. mark: a dirty little secret even in presidential and vice, great to have the press on your side. he has gotten good coverage, but these stories are turning them against him. as long as he is winning, politically he is ok in the short-term, but if you start to suffer losses, these loyalties will compound. other people are clearly troubled by this. we will see how wisconsin voters feel about that.

ahead of tuesday's wisconsin primary. there is a new state poll of wisconsin voters. democrats and republicans say ted cruz on republican side is beating donald trump amongst gop voters in the badger state 30%-40%. john kasich is in third, 21%. the poll found that 81% approve of the job governor scott walker is doing. that poll was taken before walker supported ted cruz. the same number of walker fans support trump and john kasich combined. bernie sanders is beating hillary clinton, and in a head to head general election matchup, sanders beats all three, clinton loses to kasich, ties with ted cruz, and would beat trump. what is significant of that skyhigh approval rating amongst republicans now with less than a

week before the primary? john: we thought there was no doubt that the walker endorsement of ted cruz would help a little bit. he is very popular with republicans, conferring his blessing on ted cruz may have been a signal of the fact that walker is also a cagey political operator and could see the momentum rolling in cruz's direction anyway. if he is this much ahead, you cannot help but think he will get more points at least in terms of that endorsement and steal the whole wisconsin primary on tuesday. mark: we don't want to make this a dump on trump day, but he has been criticized even in their own states, criticizing walker as he had done in the republican primary, he is very popular. with the walker on the trail with ted cruz, he has got a chance to really drive a message.

let's talk about democratic numbers and the fact that in the democratic survey, bernie sanders once again is doing better than hillary clinton against the republicans. is there significance, or does it have any meaning for the primary? john: it is significant that even hillary clinton's top aides and strategist will admit that when bernie sanders is working a state, he moves votes. he will be here in wisconsin between now and tuesday. hillary clinton will not. he is ahead in the poll if it is accurate. he is spending more days here than she is. it looks like he will win the primary. mark: i still struggle getting around the map if there were a governor's race in ohio between john kasich and bernie sanders, bernie sanders would really win? that is really incredible. john: it is baffling. there is a lot to talk about with bernie sanders. we are old enough to remember

last month all three remaining republican candidates said they would vow to support whoever turned out to be the nominee. last night, not a single one of the remaining three would repeat that pledge. donald trump said he made the promise under condition the gop establishment would treat him fairly, which he doesn't think has happened. both john kasich and ted cruz said they would not support him if he becomes the nominee. could he actually not do this? mark: we have seen amazingly, despite delegate lead, almost the republicans back trump, and i think that things have gotten personal between trump and ted cruz because kasich's view does not match up with trump. if trump can bring them on board

early, other people come on board. it becomes more than symbolic, they become leaders of the stop trump movement. john: if they are politically consistent, they will not end up supporting him as the nominee. if you listen to john kasich and ted cruz about what they have said on trump's infirmities, there is no way they can support him. if i take them at their word, on the merit, if they are consistent, they will not end up in his camp. i don't think it is possible. mark: we hear the nomination bites, that person is horrible, a horrible nominee. we can conclude that for ted cruz, it is personal. john: the law school poll on the demographic data in the primary. ♪

john: there is a hot race in wisconsin when charles franklin is on your show twice in one week. he is the director of the marquette university of law school poll, and he is here to tell us more about what it means. let's start with public and numbers and geography. which areas of the state is ted cruz doing well, leading in the polls? charles: ted cruz is doing really well in the southeast. that is where establishment republicans usually do well. until recently, you may not have thought of him as a establishment republican. in comparison with trump, i guess he is. trump had been doing well in the northwest. that is an area rick santorum won in 2012. but now the trump is behind, that is part of the cruz surge.

john: so your poll was in the field before the walker endorsement, and yet, cruz is up even without that endorsement. with walker now behind cruz how much will that help him going forward? charles: you would think it would help. our poll ended monday night before walker endorsed in the next morning. one of the striking things in the poll is that among republican primary voters, walker's job approval is 80%. that is very strong. and ted cruz gets 45% of that, donald trump only 27%. conversely, among the 17% to the do not approve of walker, trump is getting 44%. you can see a sharp dividing line there. how much more vote walker can bring to cruz, but maybe that remains to be seen, but maybe there is some there.

john: the republican side, why is it that john kasich is not doing better in a state that isn't exactly like ohio but it is not far from being like ohio? why is he doing so poorly here? charles: in a lot of ways, you would think he would do well. this is a campaign that has had a hard time igniting. the comparisons of kasich to walker a reasonably strong, not perfect, but somewhat strong. with kasich, he is in the middle on a whole lot of things. there are groups trump does well in, other groups that cruz does well in. kasich does sort of ok, not enough to break out. john: so, i would to switch over to the democratic side. let's look at the numbers. you have sanders with a narrow lead. one of the questions people have asked is whether wisconsin would behave more like michigan, where sanders won, or more like ohio, where clinton won handily.

tell us about that equation. charles: it is a pretty call. he is up by 4%, not a lot. when you look at the gaps, the gender gap, the gap between white and nonwhite voters, you see that in wisconsin, we have some gaps there, but they are not real big gaps. they are not the kind of large gaps that propelled clinton in ohio and then at least helped sanders some in michigan. instead what we are seeing is on both the gender gap, we had white and nonwhite, it was relatively small differences in the other two states, and the result is, from sanders to clinton, we are moving to the middle of a close race here. john: if you think about geographically around the state, what in the seven days before

the primary next week, where does hillary clinton have to do better geographically if she is going to pull this thing out somehow? charles: geographically, she really needs to do better in the milwaukee area. that was an area we expected to be a strong area for her, but among likely voters, she is slightly behind. it is very interesting. in the city of milwaukee, and area tailor-made for her, she is up by nine points among registered voters, but down by two points among likely voters in the city. she needs a really big turn out to make the electorate look more like registered voters, a little less like likely voters. john: and what is it you think, what accounts for that? i am surprised by her weakness in milwaukee. what do you think, probably not in the numbers, but what do you think would explain that? charles: we are seeing sanders do pretty well among

constituencies, but he does not do so well elsewhere. he is not doing as well as she is among nonwhite voters, for example, but he is not losing the vote there by the very large amount he has lost by in some other states. on the gender gap, there is a gap, more men voted for him, but it is about even among women. if he can be only losing women by two or three points, that is a real win for him. he has lost it by a lot in earlier states. mark: talking to brian fallon on the possible empire state debate with bernie sanders and the managing expectations. ♪

john: as we are campaigning in wisconsin, we are joined by mr. brian fallon. he is hillary clinton's press secretary. thank you for coming back on the show. the sanders campaign is agitating over question of debate with your boss in this

state, new york state. why will you not accept that right off the top? brian: this is a little bit of tempest in a teapot that has played out in the last 24 hours. we've said we were willing to do more debate. what threw the process for a loop was the fact that sanders's campaign issued a letter publicly. it is usually a process where they will work together privately through the dnc and come up with a debate schedule. we have always intended to go through that process. we are going through that process now. there is back channel conversation throughout the day today. our campaign indicated, the sanders campaign indicated, through the dnc, we can debate in april. john: so new york is on the table. not a forum but an actual debate. mark: given how anxious they are to do it in new york and here, are you willing to bend to that here?

i know there are other options, but if you have to do new york, you will also do that? brian: i think they will have to work together to find out dates and locations. we are willing to do new york among other options. there are other states including pennsylvania which is a big delegate-rich state where the sanders campaign will have to do well if they are going to seriously vie for the nomination. she is perfectly willing to debate in new york, and if they can find some agreeable dates, it can happen. mark: is there any downside to debating in new york? brian: i don't think so. john: i would like to offer right here. this would be a good spot. we have four chairs here. brian: you need to figure it out with jeff weaver, debbie wasserman schultz, and charlie baker. mark: we are calling them now. john: for the campaign manager being charged with battery and whether donald trump is standing

by his campaign manager, you think both as a matter of policy and morality is the right thing to do. brian: i will not comment on the specific charge, because there is a legal process, and he will get his say and his opportunity. but there is due process. it is a very serious charge and the fact that it has been charged suggests there is evidence to back it up. but the most i will say is, to make an observation about the campaign generally, mr. trump has clearly created a culture that not just condones violence but actually goads it on. that is true of his supporters in rallies where he offers to pay legal fees, and also that he condoned it to a certain degree with his staff. mark: the fact that the campaign manager is a male and the alleged victim is a female, does that say anything about the culture of the campaign? brian: i don't want to comment on the particular incident, but obviously there is a troubling trend on the part of the trump

campaign. this is not a one-off. this is not the most recent allegation with respect to conduct at their events. that says it all by itself. this is a recurring problem. john: everybody has watched the video. we have all watched the video. we had a trump critic, a defense attorney who said he made contact. is that troubling to you, that this is cause for criminal prosecution? brian: it is. and the fact that it made its way to charges is troubling. but if he defends himself, i don't want to prejudge that. it is not my place. it is a big the campaign will have to answer for in the specific and general sense. john: mark said earlier that campaign managers charged in that way should take a leave of absence. as a matter of form, should the campaign manager step aside for a little while?

brian: that is such a wild hypothetical that it is something that may not ever happen in our campaign. i mentioned a couple of weeks ago when this first happened, the campaign manager, his idea of what he likes to do when he is not back crunching numbers in the office is he goes door-to-door knocking to convince people to persuasion of voters. he is not sounding as a bouncer enforcing crowd control. mark: the wisconsin primary is really important. hillary clinton has no plans, bill clinton, chelsea clinton. why are your principles not campaigning more? brian: wisconsin is important, but all of the states coming up are imported. the new york primary the 19th, she will take that off with an event tomorrow. he was where i think the new york primary looms large. wisconsin, there are a lot of reasons he will be quite competitive.